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Helen F H
25-06-2013, 04:25 PM
So, any debate regarding the use of a black dSMB can be added to by these pics taken today:

Divers in the foreground, black DSMB in the background near the cliffs.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/600144_10152935284380640_515991586_n.jpg

Black SMB more or less in the middle of the pic near the cliffs.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1016630_10152935284385640_1526043484_n.jpg

Needless to say the guy who owns it once shown these pics decided it possibly wasn't so much of a good idea and has gone back to his normal one.

Discuss at your leisure!

JimmE
25-06-2013, 04:29 PM
I wasn't even aware such a thing existed!!

Certainly doesn't seem a good idea in terms of surface visibility.

jb2cool
25-06-2013, 04:31 PM
I love the fact that you have to give the location of hrs dSMB for us to find it in the pic.

When are they designed to work? Super bright day with tons of glare?

Digger
25-06-2013, 04:31 PM
I think you'll find that I was wearing a black drysuit and just got a bit excited on deco. Again. I was at 9 ;) The aim of it is not to be visible, it is to cool me off a bit in the wind before getting back on board :)

Digs.

Frappawotsit
25-06-2013, 04:41 PM
A very strange design..... even more strange that somebody actually thought it might be a good idea to buy one.... something about Darwin & natural selection springs to mind!

Paulo
25-06-2013, 04:43 PM
I recall someone proclaiming their virtue on here or maybe the old place not that long ago.

Could be worse, could have been a yellow and orange one

Tunicates
25-06-2013, 04:45 PM
Context is everything.

Against a dark and varied background with lots of dark tones, then a light and bright coolour will be better.
Against a bright, full glare, little variation type background like the red sea - black might work well.
Certainly the one time I had to surface in the red sea busy with small baot traffic, holding up a dark blue fin was far more visible to the boat drivers than an orange SMB.

jb2cool
25-06-2013, 04:48 PM
From the website;


Why black? It seems an odd choice, but in fact, in terms of visibility from sea-level, a solid black line is highly visible against both the sea and the sky in most daylight conditions. For this reason, many fisherman use black buoys and flags to mark their pots. It is also why the RAF have chosen black as the best colour to paint their training aircraft.

So really it's your fault Helen, you were in the wrong place. You should have moved the boat so that the cliff wasn't in shot. Rookie error.

I think I'll stick with orange though.

Soggy
25-06-2013, 04:49 PM
I dunno you lot must be blind, i saw it straight away ;)

Tilesey
25-06-2013, 04:54 PM
Looks like the choice of the Quarrior to me :D

MikeF
25-06-2013, 05:00 PM
look at pot marker dan buoys (that's if it's not the usual small invisible buoy) next time you're out at sea miles from land. Black ones do stand out better on a sunny day due to the contrast.

saying that I still use a red one though for the reasons shown in the photo's, and the fact that it's not been sunny in the UK for 10 years.

dwhitlow
25-06-2013, 05:25 PM
I was looking at them at Eurotek and it seemed a strange colour choice.

Having replaced my yellow box with something lest fragile and more stylish I clearly need one of these: clap: A change of dryuit will complete the set and ideal for the conditions of my next Scapa trip, in November :angel:

(I am sure Rob will be very polite about the choice)

mikey b
25-06-2013, 05:52 PM
I recall someone proclaiming their virtue on here or maybe the old place not that long ago.

Could be worse, could have been a yellow and orange one

I ALWAYS dive with a 2-tone orange and yellow one, FAR more visible than just orange. I'm aware that some technical groups have yellow DSMB's as a signal that they're in trouble, however this probably makes up less than 5% of the diving community. Most of the skippers I use in Scotland favour the 2-tone ones, also the Coastguard surface location aid test in Diver magazine concluded that the Coastguard advised all divers to carry a 2-tone orange/yellow DSMB...

cotochris
25-06-2013, 06:11 PM
When are they designed to work?

At night? :giggle:


I glued a reflector on the top of my dSMB, that helps a lot to being spotted and also I believe it makes it easier to spot on radar. I also have a reflector on my hood, so far in 10 years I've had it it has attracted seagulls to dive bomb me, either with their shit or beaks; not sure which one is worse!

cotochris
25-06-2013, 06:14 PM
I ALWAYS dive with a 2-tone orange and yellow one, FAR more visible than just orange. I'm aware that some technical groups have yellow DSMB's as a signal that they're in trouble, however this probably makes up less than 5% of the diving community. Most of the skippers I use in Scotland favour the 2-tone ones, also the Coastguard surface location aid test in Diver magazine concluded that the Coastguard advised all divers to carry a 2-tone orange/yellow DSMB...


I use a yellow DSMB, I've had the odd person comment that it is a 'in trouble sign' but in all my dives I have never seen one use it. As you said in technical diving maybe but I am a casual diver. Nevertheless if I am with a skipper I don't know I do mention that I have a yellow DSMB to avoid any chance of confusion.

ziggi
25-06-2013, 06:22 PM
Damn I just bought a halcyon blob of here this afternoon,
If I had seen this thread before ;-)

Helen F H
25-06-2013, 06:36 PM
Having spoken to my mates on the SAR chopper up here regards a black SMB they mentioned something along the lines of introducing a rather private part of the divers anatomy to a pineapple. But then they also think that we are mental for diving in black drysuits too.

IanB
25-06-2013, 07:16 PM
But then they also think that we are mental for diving in black drysuits too. This was what one of the folks (Russian guy IIRC) was wearing on a trip I did a few years back

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28746484/Red%20Sea%20Nov07%20003.jpg

Now that's bright

MikeF
25-06-2013, 07:22 PM
a helicopter crew are looking down on a dark sea will struggle to see a black buoy. someone on a rib is often looking for a buoy silhouetted against the sky. different thing entirely. try looking for an orange buoy against a red sunset. nothing is perfect. but I still prefer orange.

I agree with them that black suits / stab jackets / wings / counterlungs are a stupid techie fashion statement unless you're a special forces ninja.

gobfish1
25-06-2013, 07:25 PM
a fine figure of a man :x:

MikeF
25-06-2013, 07:31 PM
doesn't seem to have quite enough bling to be a russian.

is that a young russian lady trying to escape from his suit by the backdoor?

Turbanator
25-06-2013, 07:33 PM
We tried this idea years ago (before my time in the other place) after seeing pot markers using bin liners as flags.
One of the lads worked at a plastics factory and made a few up.

I think I retired mine after 1 outing. The general concensus was that bin liners were used as they were cheap! :D

Ken Hawk
25-06-2013, 07:42 PM
When I used to fish a waggler at long range on a flat day black was best, orange when it blew a bit ;)

Adrian
25-06-2013, 08:27 PM
Does it belong to a team of divers called Disaster Area who have their name written on the SMB with black marker?

Spirit of Guernsey
25-06-2013, 08:53 PM
Maybe someone should come up with an SMB made from alternating bands of orange, yellow and black. Should work in all conditions.

Janos
25-06-2013, 09:08 PM
I've glued ripstop nylon to mine (see profile pic).

Janos

Major Clanger
25-06-2013, 09:10 PM
Maybe someone should come up with an SMB made from alternating bands of orange, yellow and black. Should work in all conditions.

Aqua elevation have just about, one of mine from them is black and red. You canna deny the law of physics; one a bright day black is clearer than red in open sea and if the grow bag misses me, my bag and beacon, he should retire and give Kate and the nation more of his time...

Roz
25-06-2013, 09:23 PM
Black DSMBs - they're for cave diving, aren't they? :giggle:

Helen F H
25-06-2013, 09:28 PM
Funnily enough, one of the most effective things I have seen was almost certainly accidental. It was a few years ago and I think there was a bit footy match coming up, one of the guys had used one of those cheapo England flags and cable tied it to the top of the SMB. It stood out a mile, not the colour but the flapping motion.

The round/lift bag type SMB are useless, they look just like a pot buoy - something we routinely ignore, as can a fluorescent hood.

As for the micro halcyon ones (which I have) they should only be used when it is flat calm, or amongst a group of people who also have bags up. Yellows can disappear if they are seen up-sun from the boat. Yellow/red ones can be seen for miles but unless you plan to dive only with your own club forever they could easily cause a momentary blip in blood pressure in yoru skipper. Always remember it might be a busy wreck with lots of other divers on it not from your group. Lots of people use a yellow bag to signal a cock up and this is increasing.

Never forget the best signalling device you routinely carry is your torch.

If you use a yellow bag for distress then mark the fecker up to say as such. SOS, oh FUCK etc needs to be loud and clear. Also agree what you want to happen if you use the bag with the skipper before the dive. If you want a drop bottle then bring one, don't expect me to try to set one up in a hurry and get it to you. I have no idea what you want and will quite happily send you a fire extinguisher.

Oh, and the final bit of SMB rant is don't send one up the shotline! If you find the shot is busy and don't want to fight your way to 6m drift away from the bloody thing before putting your bag up. Having seen the result of people being hit by a bag and missing a decent wodge of stops it isn't pretty.

Digger
25-06-2013, 10:39 PM
I seem to remember some years ago attaching porn to a DSMB in the hope that it might attract the attention of a very easily influenced young deck hand. He was quite taken with the gesture, but it was mostly wasted since he didn't get to see it until we handed it up to him.

But this has given me an idea. Perhaps we can taunt you ladies on the boat with my new SMB design:

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Blow-Up-Doll-Female-Inoffensive-Stag-Hen-Night-Fancy-Dress-Inflatable-New-9318-/00/s/MTIwMFg5MDA=/z/MlcAAMXQhuVRRjzY/$T2eC16F,!zUE9s38-N6TBRRjzYei!w~~60_57.JPG

That is clearly me posing with it, I would be dressed as such on the dive just in case you change your mind ;)

But I agree - it is visibly not a great idea. Personally I am a big fan of a good length (fnar) and it being good and turgid (double fnar) on the surface. Most of the time when I have been missed by a skipper it is because there was only 4 or 5 inches sticking out (triple fnar) until I could get my mouth round it (quadruple fnar) to get it good and firm again (quintuple fnar)

Digs.

mikey b
25-06-2013, 10:47 PM
Oh, and the final bit of SMB rant is don't send one up the shotline! If you find the shot is busy and don't want to fight your way to 6m drift away from the bloody thing before putting your bag up. Having seen the result of people being hit by a bag and missing a decent wodge of stops it isn't pretty.

People are actually thick enough to fire a DSMB up a shot with divers on it?? :-0

bottle maker
25-06-2013, 11:21 PM
People are actually thick enough to fire a DSMB up a shot with divers on it?? :-0

Use a big carabiner clip it around the shot line attach DSMB or even better a lift bag fire it up the line. You then have the shot line to your self. extra cake on the boat as half the people are on O2 waiting for the chopper.

I had some body do this to me he wondered why I called him a Tuesday as in see you next.

Graham

gordon mackie
26-06-2013, 07:09 AM
Rats... so my camouflage DSMB will probably not catch on then....

I used to tie wrap a stainless steel pocket mirror to mine till I spotted Charlie had a pack of reflective suit patches in the workshop and so I got him to glue them on my DSMBs...but I can never see how effective it is as I am hanging about below it... Rob did say it made my bum look big though....

LMDA1
26-06-2013, 07:46 AM
i do love the way people put things down with out even seeing them first, yes i have one of these and as somone clearly stated they work better then red in dull conditions but NOT against a cliff face.

And before anyone starts (no its not Firday) i carry both red and yellow co should i feel the need i would add one of those to the line

Helen purhaps you should ask Emaily about it as she seem to wanted one for herself

mikey b
26-06-2013, 07:58 AM
Rats... so my camouflage DSMB will probably not catch on then....

I used to tie wrap a stainless steel pocket mirror to mine till I spotted Charlie had a pack of reflective suit patches in the workshop and so I got him to glue them on my DSMBs...but I can never see how effective it is as I am hanging about below it... Rob did say it made my bum look big though....

I wondered about trying that, got a roll of reflective tape at home
Do any manufacturers make a DSMB with light/radar reflective tape on it? And if not.... why not??

Helen F H
26-06-2013, 07:58 AM
I would rather have an SMB that works well regardless of where I dive or what the weather is like. I am lucky to remember everything I need to dive with at the best of times, adding "which SMB" do I need to the mix is something I could do without. If I bought one of these I suspect my mates on the SAR unit would have severe words with me!

Lets face it, people want these because they look "cool" not because they are somehow better than the orange ones.

Noggin the Nog
26-06-2013, 08:04 AM
Got us worried now. Perhaps we should have got a yellow one. Dammit, thought a 13ft long SMB would be visible enough!


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/ntargetn10/BILD0546.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/ntargetn10/media/BILD0546.jpg.html)

Dave Lev
26-06-2013, 08:16 AM
I wondered about trying that, got a roll of reflective tape at home
Do any manufacturers make a DSMB with light/radar reflective tape on it? And if not.... why not??

The 6" Halcyons come supplied with a strip of solas tape around them.




Lets face it, people want these because they look "cool" not because they are somehow better than the orange ones.

Never seen one but I reckon they'd have value on a bright day. A few times in Oman, I wondered why we all had brightly-coloured DSMBs against a sparkly sea. I settled for marking my DSMBs with a (marker pen and solas tape) version of the black-and-white St Pirran's flag, instead of writing my name on them.



After we had a couple of guys go for an unscheduled surface swim for an hour after their dive, I realised that having a DSMB that broke the line of the horizon was probably more useful than whatever colour it is, at least in SAR terms. Size matters a lot.

gordon mackie
26-06-2013, 08:52 AM
Writing "Rob's a Knob" on your DSMB in big letters is a bad move... it is a long fin from the Dresden to Stromness

Allan Carr
26-06-2013, 09:52 AM
People are actually thick enough to fire a DSMB up a shot with divers on it?? :-0

Saw it happen on the Scylla! Then again, some of the divers you get on there are not safe to be let loose. On one occasion, my wife and I were swimming to the shot when two divers surfaced. There was a bit of a current running and one of the surfaced divers kept kicking at us when we tried to grab the shot, yelling at us to F*** Off! I took a compass bearing on the line of shot, dropped to the bottom and we navigated in on compass. How those idiots expected to be picked up by their boat when they were hanging on the shot, I don't know. So letting go a DSMB when hanging on the shot is no surprise.

Major Clanger
26-06-2013, 09:56 AM
Lets face it, people want these because they look "cool" not because they are somehow better than the orange ones.

Good job I booked on a different boat this year. I look cool enough as it is without one ;) and have one as an option because I know their effectiveness in bright conditions, not from the perspective of helicopter crew looking down (I have something else for that), but from that of someone a few feet above surface level looking out for one where the sun is making clear identification a problem. Not an issue up there I guess...

bottle maker
26-06-2013, 10:36 AM
I have a couple of serious points to make regarding black DSMBs

1 Fishermen know where their pots are they only need a marker so that they can pull them back in. They do not just drive out to sea and throw their pot line over board they use charts and years of experience to identify the best fishing spots.

2 I was driving the club RIP of Portland a month ago sea conditions were very good. While looking for somewhere to drop my divers in around the back of the Bill I was continually having to alter course to avoid pot buoys, the brightly colored ones were a lot easier to see than the dark ones.


I think the people on this thread defending black buoys have bought the emperor's new clothes and are reluctant to admit that they have purchased something that AP told me they had first made as bit of a joke then people kept asking for them.

Graham.

Major Clanger
26-06-2013, 11:08 AM
I think the people on this thread defending black buoys have bought the emperor's new clothes and are reluctant to admit that they have purchased something that AP told me they had first made as bit of a joke then people kept asking for them.

Graham.

Crap, in a word. In the right conditions, they are far easier to spot than a red one.

notdeadyet
26-06-2013, 11:43 AM
People are actually thick enough to fire a DSMB up a shot with divers on it?? :-0

Yep. I've seen it more than a few times. It's even better when it ends up wrapped round the shot or even round divers on the shot as well. I don't know that I'd be that bloodyminded but I've twice seen people so pissed off by it they cut the SMB line.

I've done it once by accident. I think it was on the Wallachia, vis was so bad I couldn't find the shot so sent a bag up from where I was. Unfortunately where I was was about a foot from the shot.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Jim
26-06-2013, 12:24 PM
I saw my first black SMB out here a couple of weeks ago, and it was actually quite noticeable. Though more from a 'what the hell is that' point of view than anything else.
I teach technical students to deploy a red/orange and a yellow in an emergency. It looks very different to anything else, especially when there are lots of other divers around using all sorts of markers....

Emergency SMB Deployment | Jim Dowling (http://www.jimdowling.co.uk/news/emergency-smb-deployment/)

Major Clanger
26-06-2013, 12:44 PM
Yep. I've seen it more than a few times. It's even better when it ends up wrapped round the shot or even round divers on the shot as well. I don't know that I'd be that bloodyminded but I've twice seen people so pissed off by it they cut the SMB line.

I've done it once by accident. I think it was on the Wallachia, vis was so bad I couldn't find the shot so sent a bag up from where I was. Unfortunately where I was was about a foot from the shot.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

I've been speared by a bag when I was drifting along the edge of a wreck on its side at the time they sent one up from the bottom. Didn't know they were there until then; soddin low viz breaver divers.

LMDA1
26-06-2013, 12:49 PM
I love this thread, they was made as a JOKE, clearly people dont like them and some do, most have never even seen one so are not in a position to add any value, personally as long as the skipper is happy what hell does it matter.

It must be friday already......

Noggin the Nog
26-06-2013, 05:24 PM
....and they get you deleted off Facebook!


Jus' sayin' :giggle:


(Still think, black with orange stripes would show up well in most situations)

Pete Bullen
26-06-2013, 05:47 PM
i do love the way people put things down with out even seeing them first, yes i have one of these and as somone clearly stated they work better then red in dull conditions but NOT against a cliff face.

And before anyone starts (no its not Firday) i carry both red and yellow co should i feel the need i would add one of those to the line

Helen purhaps you should ask Emaily about it as she seem to wanted one for herself

So how do you know which one to send up, how can you tell at 20m whether the boat will be between you and the cliff or vice versa? If H&H and the SAR guys say "Orange is the best all rounder" that's good enough for me. :)

JimmE
26-06-2013, 06:48 PM
Despite the comments about deploying them in bright sunlight, last week I was coming the club boat on Wednesday night, the first time 'on my own' since qualifying as a diver cox'n. It was an evening dive and although there was a low sun, on a lovely clear evening, without cliff in sight I still don't think I'd have been able to spot a black SMB very easily. Divers were drifting with the current, I knew roughly where to expect their SMBs and there was a large area of the site I couldn't see well when I was positioned by the shot dealing with a diver with problems descending due to lack of weight, due to the amount of glare on the water.

However, being aeare of this I regularly completed a 'lap' of the area I expected the blobs to appear, and even at 'rib height' above the water I would have struggled to see a black SMB anytime OTHER than when I was looking into the glare. Each time I repositioned so that I wasn't looking into the glare it was back to looking for SMBs against dark grey water, so the bright orange (and yes, one of my divers had a yellow/orange SMB) was much easier to spot.

I can see the theory but in practice, skippers should be aware of sun glare and position accordingly (repositioning regularly if divers are in two areas) - the black SMB may be better in those situations but how many times is glare an issue compared to the number of times it isn't?

How about three sided SMB's then - orange yellow and black ;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Major Clanger
26-06-2013, 09:24 PM
How about three sided SMB's then - orange yellow and black ;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Fourth one down, I'm sure Nigel would add a bit of yellow on request:

SMBs Surface Maker Boys (http://www.aqua-elevation.co.uk/smboutofgas.php)

Scimitar Diving
27-06-2013, 02:02 PM
Crap, in a word. In the right conditions, they are far easier to spot than a red one.

I think you have been smoking something. Somebody told me they had seen a black SMB on the Aeolian sky a few weeks ago and i thought they where winding me up.

IMHO a DSMB need to be big and bright. Hi viz red/orange/yellow is perfect. Radar reflective tape is also pretty cool as well.

I am however willing to eat humble pie and stand corrected. How about a test?

I will give you free of charge the availability of a boat (when i can fit it in) to go out and do a test. Better still, if anyone can get one for the Chesh dive next Friday???

Major Clanger
27-06-2013, 02:33 PM
I think you have been smoking something. Somebody told me they had seen a black SMB on the Aeolian sky a few weeks ago and i thought they where winding me up.

IMHO a DSMB need to be big and bright. Hi viz red/orange/yellow is perfect. Radar reflective tape is also pretty cool as well.

I am however willing to eat humble pie and stand corrected. How about a test?

I will give you free of charge the availability of a boat (when i can fit it in) to go out and do a test. Better still, if anyone can get one for the Chesh dive next Friday???

Coarse anglers have known fir years that in the right conditions, black beats red on the surface so I don't get why others resist the idea so much. Conjure up some clear skies, flat seas and blazing sun for next week and I'll bring my black/red one along. Have to take your word though about the result as I'll be under it.

CraigofScotland
27-06-2013, 02:51 PM
How can you compare something is critical as been seen at sea in relation to your kit which you take with you underwater to a little float you put on the end of your fishing line.

Sure you see it but does the sea state not change? you then change float correct? Doing mid water deployment of a bag how can you be sure the sea is ok for the black one. Do you carry 3 then? One for normal, one for black dsmb worth conditions and a spare?


Im sure black is seen, in a perfect enviroment for it. BUt im not taking my chances of the weather/tides/sea being the same condition I left it in an hour ago!

Scimitar Diving
27-06-2013, 04:05 PM
Coarse anglers have known fir years that in the right conditions, black beats red on the surface so I don't get why others resist the idea so much. Conjure up some clear skies, flat seas and blazing sun for next week and I'll bring my black/red one along. Have to take your word though about the result as I'll be under it.

I'll do my damndest to sort the weather. Finding a virgin on portland to offer up to the weather gods in unfortunately impossible.

I get what you are saying about bright sunshine ect. but the problem really as I see it is the way that most divers use dsmb's. For a lot of time its completly flat on the surface until they start winding in their reels/spools then it pops up. Flat calm sunshine? I wish.



Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

Major Clanger
27-06-2013, 04:19 PM
How can you compare something is critical as been seen at sea in relation to your kit which you take with you underwater to a little float you put on the end of your fishing line.

Sure you see it but does the sea state not change? you then change float correct? Doing mid water deployment of a bag how can you be sure the sea is ok for the black one. Do you carry 3 then? One for normal, one for black dsmb worth conditions and a spare?


Im sure black is seen, in a perfect enviroment for it. BUt im not taking my chances of the weather/tides/sea being the same condition I left it in an hour ago!

Much ado about nothing, it's just something that has it's place on the right day. Not sure I'd want an all black one, but black and red is good in my book. If I do decide to deploy a black one and the conditions alter that much, I have a spare red one, a large torch, spare torch, ais beacon and cuddly toy. If that lot don't work, little else will...It's about options you see ;)

Helen F H
28-06-2013, 08:22 AM
I was thinking about this while emptying the hound last night. My reckoning is this:

Lifeboat = orange (with blue hull as orange hull would stay orange for about a week but deck stored ones are all orange)
Liferaft = orange
Helo winchman overalls = orange
Smoke flares = orange
Liferings (well some of them) = orange

If yellow was so good, why isn't it used for all this stuff?

Foggy
28-06-2013, 09:52 AM
Many years ago IIRC ROSPA did some research into the most optically active colour combinations. To summarise they found:

Black and white are good optically contrasting colours - compare black text on a white page with any other colour, white lines on black tarmac and black and white chevrons at sharp bends in the road.

Red and white are also good

and Yellow and black.

ROSPA concluded that the latter two combinations worked well in all light conditions and would therefore be good to highlight things like bollards and height restrictions on bridges.

My take on this has always been that against mixed dark colours (as on overcast days) bright colours work well, but when faced with looking into a bright sun (particularly if its low to the horizon) then black would be as good as anything.

I've often wondered why we don't see red & white "barbers pole" or yellow and black striped DSMBS; I guess the costs of making a striped bag are simply too great.

-Paul

PS. the ICI / ROSPA study was carried out before the advent of fluorescent colours

Foggy
28-06-2013, 09:55 AM
If yellow was so good, why isn't it used for all this stuff?

In my experience older yellow fluorescent dyes were not as long lasting as orange ones. - just look at the older buddy stab jackets to see what I mean.

Now Arthur C. Clarke has a totally different reason for choosing yellow over orange for all his diving kit.....

notdeadyet
28-06-2013, 10:09 AM
If yellow was so good, why isn't it used for all this stuff?

I dont know if there is any parallel but the railways also chose orange for hi-vis clothing as well. Reasoning was yellow (as used on roads and building sites) had too much potential to be confused with other things (green signal lights from a distance for one). Maybe there was a similar reasoning for marine and SAR?

Of course, it may just be a yellow lifeboat would look shit? :)

Some companies have moved to pink for hi-vis.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

GLOC
28-06-2013, 11:57 AM
Black was chosen as the colour for training aircraft in the low-level environment because any aircraft highlighted against the sky becomes a silhouette anyway, and black is an unnatural colour so will stand out pretty much against any background at low-level looking down. They used to be red and white but will step kept on having mid-airs or airproxs at low-level so they did a study and black is what they came up with.

The eye picks up movement and this is accentuated with contrast.

So, you paint the aircraft black, and they move at low-level, great, but what about the SAR helicopters who are stationary when hovering? So, they realised that the blades move even if the platform is hovering, so if you see an MOD SAR helicopter from above, you will see that one of the four blades is painted yellow and you see that blade moving around...

Regards



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

jb2cool
28-06-2013, 12:07 PM
So you're saying we should swing the dSMB around our head like a helicopter? :giggle:

Noggin the Nog
28-06-2013, 12:34 PM
Some very effective rifle foresights (for hunting rather than target work) are configured as a matt black pillar with a fluorescent orange dot on the side facing the shooter.

Seen against a light background the foresight stands up as a matt black silhouette. Seen against a dark background the orange spot appears to glow as a small bead on the target.

So, how about a black DSMB with Hi-viz Orange spots?

CraigofScotland
28-06-2013, 12:42 PM
Just get a 6ft gay pride flag and turn it into a bag.


Cover all your bases.

Squidge
28-06-2013, 12:42 PM
So you're saying we should swing the dSMB around our head like a helicopter? :giggle:

I attended a Dive Accident Responder Course at the DDRC in January, with talks from the Coastguard and a winchman from RNAS Culdrose. Apparently, a very effective way to make yourself seen at night is to swing a cylume around your head on a string (obviously crack it first!) The neon green and yellow ones are the most visible.

Major Clanger
29-06-2013, 08:55 PM
Tried the black/red bag today off the east coast in reasonably bright conditions. Skipper said was very easy to spot, especially when bag moving rotating.

henrik
01-07-2013, 05:55 PM
A black SMB is more streamlined, right?

BTS
01-07-2013, 06:03 PM
someone on a rib is often looking for a buoy silhouetted against the sky.

Someone on a RIB is generally looking at a half inflated effort lying flaccid on the surface of the water whilst wondering what is so f***ing difficult about putting air in a balloon...

gpj
01-07-2013, 06:17 PM
Just get a 6ft gay pride flag and turn it into a bag.


Cover all your bases.

Will you be inflating it orally?

BTS
01-07-2013, 06:18 PM
Tried the black/red bag today off the east coast in reasonably bright conditions. Skipper said was very easy to spot, especially when bag moving rotating.

Is that not simply due to the lighthouse effect of the red flashing as it rotates? I don't think this can be compared to an all black SMB which would not offer the same flashing effect...

I can see how they might work in clear blue water but in the UK? I have never has an issue seeing an orange or yellow blob unless they are in direct setting sunlight and even then the natural movement of position with regard to the boat and the diver will bring you out of the direct light and the blob is visible..

Nitnab Nhoj
01-07-2013, 07:30 PM
I carry a selection of different colours, choosing the appropriate colour to suit the viewing height of the search vessel (black against light sky, orange against a turbid sea, yellow to be seen from a helicopter etc...oh, no. That's wrong. I remember now. I put up a flag once I am at the surface - once tested to be visible from 6 miles at Cocos..

jb2cool
01-07-2013, 07:38 PM
Might be a good thing to compare the differences in a magazine article.

Ken Hawk
01-07-2013, 07:41 PM
I carry a selection of different colours, choosing the appropriate colour to suit the viewing height of the search vessel (black against light sky, orange against a turbid sea, yellow to be seen from a helicopter etc...oh, no. That's wrong. I remember now. I put up a flag once I am at the surface - once tested to be visible from 6 miles at Cocos..

But how do you put up the flag from the wreck ;)

Nitnab Nhoj
01-07-2013, 07:52 PM
But how do you put up the flag from the wreck ;)

If the wreck is drifting, that can be a problem. However normally I would know the viewing height of the vessel I was diving from and the vessel captain might possibly know where the wreck is. Sometimes, the buoyed shotline is near the wreck too. I wouldn't know if there was a problem with the boat locating me until I broke the surface when the flag comes in useful. I was told last week in Egypt that I looked very BSAC because of the flag. What does BSAC stand for in this context?

BTS
01-07-2013, 07:56 PM
Being Sensible Assures Collection?

Big, Suspicious And Comforting?

Black Smbs Are Crap?

Woz
02-07-2013, 08:49 AM
Look. It's simple. Buy a red one if you want to be picked up, a yellow one if you want some gas on your head and a black one if you're a twat.

Just done a week of picking up divers in Oban and 1. flat calm bright sunshine my scabby arse and 2. red or yellow is very visible against a background of grey Scottish weather. Black heads in hoods are not. And 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of all the pot buoys were orange. The other 0.0000000000000000000000000001% were white.

Ian_6301
02-07-2013, 09:31 AM
Black was chosen as the colour for training aircraft in the low-level environment because any aircraft highlighted against the sky becomes a silhouette anyway, and black is an unnatural colour so will stand out pretty much against any background at low-level looking down. They used to be red and white but will step kept on having mid-airs or airproxs at low-level so they did a study and black is what they came up with.

The eye picks up movement and this is accentuated with contrast.

So, you paint the aircraft black, and they move at low-level, great, but what about the SAR helicopters who are stationary when hovering? So, they realised that the blades move even if the platform is hovering, so if you see an MOD SAR helicopter from above, you will see that one of the four blades is painted yellow and you see that blade moving around...

Regards



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Bloody Jet Jocks.

Even YOUR Sea Kings have 5 main blades...

GLOC
02-07-2013, 09:53 AM
Bloody Jet Jocks.

Even YOUR Sea Kings have 5 main blades...
Not likely, this used to be the view from my office ;)

Images of Life Photography | In the Air | Photo 5 (http://www.imagesoflife.co.uk/p307600640/he40c623#he40c623)

;)

Regards

Major Clanger
02-07-2013, 10:54 AM
Look. It's simple. Buy a red one if you want to be picked up, a yellow one if you want some gas on your head and a black one if you're a twat.

Just done a week of picking up divers in Oban and 1. flat calm bright sunshine my scabby arse and 2. red or yellow is very visible against a background of grey Scottish weather. Black heads in hoods are not. And 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of all the pot buoys were orange. The other 0.0000000000000000000000000001% were white.

Crab and lobster boats out of Lowestoft use black flags on red buoys.

Foggy
02-07-2013, 11:00 AM
Crab and lobster boats out of Lowestoft use black flags on red buoys.

And the divers use red & yellow dsmbs.....

all bases covered

Major Clanger
02-07-2013, 11:05 AM
And the divers use red & yellow dsmbs.....

all bases covered

And red/black ones if they so choose, which I did...

Foggy
02-07-2013, 11:09 AM
... Black heads in hoods are not... .

OMG that's made me recall something ....

Back in the 80's youd be given a free fluorescent overhood free if you bought £XX of gear, or if you went to the diveshow at Crystal Palace you could buy them for 99p....until a certain edition of Diver magazine in which there were two articles IIRC, one saying that the survival time in the UK in the sea was around 1 hr, and the other saying that the SAR helio took around 1.5 hrs to locate divers with black hoods compared to 45mins for those with fluorescent ones .... they stopped being free and the price rocketed.

I'm sure Mr Bantin will be along shortly to tell me I'm only 80% (8/10) correct.

Anyhow that was the dawn of brightly coloured dive kit. Now I'm sure someone will tell me that black is better :)

-Paul

PS Mr Woz is evil for reminding me how old I am ;)

Ian_6301
02-07-2013, 11:51 AM
Not likely, this used to be the view from my office ;)

Images of Life Photography | In the Air | Photo 5 (http://www.imagesoflife.co.uk/p307600640/he40c623#he40c623)

;)

Regards

Ah... Forgot about that bit. Bugger.

But a Sea King still has 5 main blades...

BTS
02-07-2013, 12:02 PM
Drift nets around here have buoys with black flags on them, they are a bitch to see on all but the brightest of days...

BenL
02-07-2013, 01:25 PM
If black is so wrong, what about cardinal buoys? They work quite well against a setting sun:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/North_Cardinal_Buoy_off_Sconce_Point_-_geograph.org.uk_-_48934.jpg

And grey seas:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcy-GzlocZcHjriIHkMnmPgiHhjuO-xbHoZvSvEtMrI4blC95ybg

CraigofScotland
02-07-2013, 01:30 PM
They are also huge and massive and not a slim little sausage.



If black is so good for being seen, explain ninjas. No one sees them and they wear black!

Major Clanger
02-07-2013, 01:35 PM
They are also huge and massive and not a slim little sausage.



If black is so good for being seen, explain ninjas. No one sees them and they wear black!

Can't remember the last time I saw a whirling ninja waiting to get back on the boat. Mind you, some of those knives people carry...

jb2cool
02-07-2013, 01:38 PM
Traditionally ninja used to wear dark blue or dark grey in preferrance ot black :P:

bottle maker
02-07-2013, 01:40 PM
Can't remember the last time I saw a whirling ninja waiting to get back on the boat. Mind you, some of those knives people carry...

That is because they wear black they were there you just could not see them.

Graham

Major Clanger
02-07-2013, 01:41 PM
That is because they wear black they were there you just could not see them.

Graham

Then they should use a red snorkel ffs!

Foggy
03-07-2013, 08:33 AM
Traditionally ninja used to wear dark blue or dark grey in preferrance ot black :P:

Ah but that's because they didn't use the right washing powder.....;)

shapeshifter
18-03-2015, 04:31 PM
Is it possible to get hold of these pictures again ?


So, any debate regarding the use of a black dSMB can be added to by these pics taken today:

Divers in the foreground, black DSMB in the background near the cliffs.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/600144_10152935284380640_515991586_n.jpg

Black SMB more or less in the middle of the pic near the cliffs.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1016630_10152935284385640_1526043484_n.jpg

Needless to say the guy who owns it once shown these pics decided it possibly wasn't so much of a good idea and has gone back to his normal one.

Discuss at your leisure!

cazyoung
19-03-2015, 11:37 AM
Might need to PM Helen, I would also like to see the pics.