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View Full Version : Hollis Explorer - Due Soon in the UK



RichardHowes
30-12-2012, 09:42 PM
http://vimeo.com/54027542

Here at Hollis, we feel that this unit is gonna change the industry somewhat, what does everyone else think?

It's difficult not to take off the 'technical RB' hat when viewing this, and many have commented that they don't believe it'll be popular amongst divers, however this is entirely the wrong market. This is aimed at entry level, and Open Water diver, not at your tec weekender (there's a Prism for that).

ebt
30-12-2012, 11:41 PM
Pricepoint is the killer factor.

give us a clue?

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 12:01 AM
Circa £4 ready to dive.

Oh, and as it's AUP Group, you get lifetime warranty, so free service parts for life...

Before anyone asks, sofnolime and sensors are not service parts ;-) ...yet

ebt
31-12-2012, 12:04 AM
£4? bargain. I'll take 100.

....glad its not 4k though, that'd be silly pricing. The dolphin used to come in a lot cheaper, was targetting the same demographic etc. It always struggled with 'you're not as capable as a full ccr' and ended up as a niche product. Hopefully you guys have worked out how to avoid that.

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 10:31 AM
:D

Interesting comments, as we see quite often that experienced divers make a 'technical' connection with a rebreather and can't help the 'but it doesn't do this' syndrome.

Interesting to see how the SSI RB entry level course is received by consumers.

Reception by centres and ITs has been very good. Just interested to see the opinion of experienced divers to a new eSCR that is pretty much idiot proof (but you know what they say about idiots).

Dave Lev
31-12-2012, 11:11 AM
The video is clearly produced for people who know a lot more about rebreathers than I do. I'd need the end-user marketing version to determine why I'd ever want to consider buying one.



The dolphin used to come in a lot cheaper, was targetting the same demographic etc. It always struggled with 'you're not as capable as a full ccr' and ended up as a niche product. Hopefully you guys have worked out how to avoid that.

This Hollis unit still looks like a niche product from my amateur perspective. SCR does not offer me any obvious advantages over my twinset that I can see. And (assuming £4k rather than £4!) the purchase price plus training costs would be best left to accumulate towards CCR should I ever feel that I no longer have enough open-circuit goals to focus on.

Unless the "e" bit of eSCR is really that significant..?

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 11:16 AM
The video is clearly produced for people who know a lot more about rebreathers than I do. I'd need the end-user marketing version to determine why I'd ever want to consider buying one.

Yep, the 'e' bit is quite significant, but you're still way above the level. Why would you switch from a twinset to an SCR? Again, thinking with a technical mindset is not where this unit is aimed, you need a Prism2 or Sentinel, not an entry level eSCR.



This Hollis unit still looks like a niche product from my amateur perspective. SCR does not offer me any obvious advantages over my twinset that I can see. And (assuming £4k rather than £4!) the purchase price plus training costs would be best left to accumulate towards CCR should I ever feel that I no longer have enough open-circuit goals to focus on.

Unless the "e" bit of eSCR is really that significant..?

Dave Lev
31-12-2012, 11:20 AM
From the little I know about CCR, I think a Sentinel is the last thing I need! ;)

ebt
31-12-2012, 11:24 AM
:D

Interesting comments, as we see quite often that experienced divers make a 'technical' connection with a rebreather and can't help the 'but it doesn't do this' syndrome.


True, but my observation was more based around how consumers previously responded to the dolphin :)

Good luck.

matt yates
31-12-2012, 11:24 AM
What would the max depth be, dive times, is it deco capable? and what would the cost per dive be?

WFO
31-12-2012, 11:26 AM
My opinion, if you have electronics and SCR, that is the worst of both worlds, not the best.

Will the scrubber packing be available as a PADI speciality :-P

AxeMan
31-12-2012, 11:27 AM
:D

Interesting comments, as we see quite often that experienced divers make a 'technical' connection with a rebreather and can't help the 'but it doesn't do this' syndrome.

Depends what you mean by technical. I see a 35m nitrox dive with 10-15 mins of deco as a fairly standard UK wreck dive. It's easy to do safely on a twinset, the same couldn't be said of the Dolphin with its limited bailout.

Hot Totty
31-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Kind of like it, but I suspect it will be niche for some time. However if there available to rent in sunny climbs without an onerous crossover training thingy for existing ccr folks I could see it working :)

nickb
31-12-2012, 12:33 PM
Bowen's really go that slack-jawed yokel thing down to a T. Does he move his lips when he's reading?

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 03:50 PM
What would the max depth be, dive times, is it deco capable? and what would the cost per dive be?

Max depth would be in line with recreational training agency standards, so;

Entry Level RB Diver = 18m
Advanced RB Diver = 30m
Advanced RB Diver with Deep = 40m

Anything past 18m and the recreational agencies train with a secondary bailout cylinder for ascent.

The unit will allow Deco, but not as you'd intend it, only for contingency. Then everything flashes, beeps and tells you to go home.

Sliding scale set point for PPO2, no need to wind the O2 up to 1.3 when you're sat at 15 metres and have stacks of no deco. Head deeper and the unit slides the PPo2 upwards to ensure deco is removed.

Scrubber is rated for 2 hours with Co2 sensor and temp stick as standard. Scrubbers are pre-packed or packable by service centre staff (Hollis trained dealer).

Recreational unit only, tec is the small pointy end of the pyramid.

wildlifephotog
31-12-2012, 03:55 PM
Recreational unit only, tec is the small pointy end of the pyramid.

I'd say Rebreathers as a whole are currently the small pointy end of the pyramid. Will be interesting to see whether you manage to change that, but I can't see a £4k unit becoming mass market.

Frappawotsit
31-12-2012, 03:58 PM
I guess i'm struggling a little with this. It appears to be a direct competitor to the Poseidon Mk V1.... which although readily available, doesn't seem to be very high on anybodies desire/demand list?

I think that that there are definitely some advantages, but until the price point comes down massively.... these type of units are always going to price themselves out of the market.

Generally speaking, your average Recreational depth divers, that dive under their PADI/BSAC limits... are not typically the divers that can/will justify £4k rebreather purchases.... and if they do.... they want a scaleable one that will follow them on their journey into tech.

I maybe wrong, but i think the "Recreational Rebreather" is actually a Market trying to be created by the Manufacturers, not so much a market in demand by consumers.

Just my 2p, but hope it goes well for you Hollis.... I like you as a company and would like to see this work for you, i'm sure you've done your research and hope it pays off!!!

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 03:58 PM
My opinion, if you have electronics and SCR, that is the worst of both worlds, not the best.

Will the scrubber packing be available as a PADI speciality :-P

Same thing was said by some daft audience members at EuroTek to Mr Toomer.

We have computers flying our airliners, yet people still believe they are better at monitoring a handset and manually injecting :-( 50% of the population are below average intelligence, yet 90% say they're above average. Go figure.

All Rec RBs are designed for 1 option in emergency. They're not Tech RBs and never intend to be.

As mentioned several times, we're in an industry where the limiting factor is the current mindset of 'New RB...it must be a tec unit...why does it do ted?...wouldn't want one of those...'

Lots of people in the industry are alredy signed up for thee units in their centres as they see it as a new technology that can attract new people to the sport. Hollis Worldwide is already onto the travel market and has the plans in place for this with rental units being implemented in holiday markets and at home in the UK.

Apart from the 'Will it do deco; NO' questions, does anyone here work in the UK industry as a pro and see any issues with this being used by brand new divers to dive on?

HP
31-12-2012, 03:59 PM
Kev Gurr showed me round this earlier in the year and it seems brilliantly simple and easy to use.

I still think the market is way more limited than the dive industry thinks it is though?

Frappawotsit
31-12-2012, 04:05 PM
does anyone here work in the UK industry as a pro and see any issues with this being used by brand new divers to dive on?

Only that Poseidon tried this same approach... and so far... the only units i've ever seen anywhere, are those bought by schools to teach.... the people i only ever see using them.... the instructors to keep their time up.

I don't think i've seen a single, genuine student on one yet.... the demand just doesn't seem to be there. (IMO)

It is to some degree a shame.... but price is the killer here. Let's not forget... the dive industry is struggling to charge enough for it's entry level scuba courses, at under £400. So I'm really not sure people are ready to pay extra for a course done on a RB, especially if to take full advantage of doing so, means a £4k spend after the course, to buy their own.

In an economic slump, the introduction of high end "Luxury" products, is always a tough ride.... as i said before.... i wish you well, it's a brave move.

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 04:08 PM
I guess i'm struggling a little with this. It appears to be a direct competitor to the Poseidon Mk V1.... which although readily available, doesn't seem to be very high on anybodies desire/demand list?

I think that that there are definitely some advantages, but until the price point comes down massively.... these type of units are always going to price themselves out of the market.

Generally speaking, your average Recreational depth divers, that dive under their PADI/BSAC limits... are not typically the divers that can/will justify £4k rebreather purchases.... and if they do.... they want a scaleable one that will follow them on their journey into tech.

I maybe wrong, but i think the "Recreational Rebreather" is actually a Market trying to be created by the Manufacturers, not so much a market in demand by consumers.

Just my 2p, but hope it goes well for you Hollis.... I like you as a company and would like to see this work for you, i'm sure you've done your research and hope it pays off!!!

Agreed with your thoughts, but this is a completely different unit to the MK VI. As a well know proprietor of a UK inland site said; 'It's the Tomy My-First-Rebreather'. Shouldn't be big, shouldn't be scary, and definitely should not have any connotations of 'tec'. I've never taught a student to dive who's reason was 'I want to dive a rebreather'. They all usually give the response 'I want to explore, adventure, see fish etc etc'. The instructor is usually the driving force behind a certain mentality that a diver develops.

I agree that your 'Average' diver isn't the one that would buy the unit, but your 'average' diver is also one who will use £30 of diesel to get to the dive show, to then buy a cylinder for £50 discount that needs a test in 5 months :confused:

The new 'average' diver needs to be the new 'skier of the 90's'. When the ski industry was dead on its arse, the snowboarding community expanded and became a large industry in which people would spend $1,000's.

I find it crazy to see some people spending £4000 on a mountain bike, but then realise I've probably spent 3 times that amount on my hobby, and I don't even have a shed or a garage in which to accumulate 'stuff' :-).

Dave Lev
31-12-2012, 04:12 PM
Lots of people in the industry are alredy signed up for thee units in their centres as they see it as a new technology that can attract new people to the sport.

IMHO, non-divers are hardly going to be drawn to the sport by making the equipment more complicated; the niche for the product does not include brand new divers. You say it isn't for me because I have "a technical mindset". At £4000, plus training, it is a pretty expensive stepping stone to CCR. So, with the greatest of respect, who is it for..?

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 04:14 PM
Only that Poseidon tried this same approach... and so far... the only units i've ever seen anywhere, are those bought by schools to teach.... the people i only ever see using them.... the instructors to keep their time up.

I don't think i've seen a single, genuine student on one yet.... the demand just doesn't seem to be there. (IMO)

It is to some degree a shame.... but price is the killer here. Let's not forget... the dive industry is struggling to charge enough for it's entry level scuba courses, at under £400. So I'm really not sure people are ready to pay extra for a course done on a RB, especially if to take full advantage of doing so, means a £4k spend after the course, to buy their own.

In an economic slump, the introduction of high end "Luxury" products, is always a tough ride.... as i said before.... i wish you well, it's a brave move.

Thanks for the well wishes :-)

Seems a shame also that once centre (ScoobaBoosta) was slated in the UK Dive press for charging £499 for an open water course. Maybe it's the mentality of the industry? In an economic slump most businesses lose 20% of their customers; the bottom 20%. The problem is, if all of your customers are bargain hunters, they'll be the first to leave.

I have seen a few Poseidon units 'in the wild', albeit on the backs of prominent industry people.

There are also people charging over £1000 for an entry level OC course in the UK, and those people are backlogged with bookings. Maybe most of us are fishing in the wrong ponds?

Jackdiver
31-12-2012, 04:17 PM
Why is automatically seen as a stepping stone to CCR?

I'm sure there are lots of divers who would appreciate the benefits of rebreathers who have no intention of chasing depth and the so called "technical" end of diving.

Photographers as one example.

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 04:20 PM
IMHO, non-divers are hardly going to be drawn to the sport by making the equipment more complicated; the niche for the product does not include brand new divers. You say it isn't for me because I have "a technical mindset". At £4000, plus training, it is a pretty expensive stepping stone to CCR. So, with the greatest of respect, who is it for..?

Did you watch the video? Turn on gas, turn on handset, breathe...

How is that more complicated?

The unit is for the same customer who parks outside a centre on the double yellow lines in their Audi TT to get an air fill (been witness to this), they couldn't be bothered to carry their cylinder from the car park so would rather stump up the £60 fine from the Traffic Warden!

The same Open water diver who buys a £1000 Hollis DX300 drysuit (It's all we're making in the factory at the moment!). The same Open Water Diver who spends £500 on ali cylinders, £600 on a sidemount wing, £1000 on sidemount regs etc because they really want to do it.

As a worldwide company I can assure most people on here that we haven't done this to 'give it a go', as with the acquisition of the Prism2 and Sentinel systems, we see this as a long term strategy for the sport and something that consumers will move towards.

sussexdiver
31-12-2012, 04:22 PM
Nice product but still to much £££££

Frappawotsit
31-12-2012, 04:24 PM
The unit is for the same customer who parks outside a centre on the double yellow lines in their Audi TT to get an air fill (been witness to this), they couldn't be bothered to carry their cylinder from the car park so would rather stump up the £60 fine from the Traffic Warden!



A little tongue in cheek... but i'm not sure this is the best model on which to release a product you hope will change the industry.......

Dave Lev
31-12-2012, 04:25 PM
How is that more complicated?

You're saying eSCR is not more complicated than open circuit?!

Ken Hawk
31-12-2012, 04:35 PM
Stupid question time.

Why are you red Richard?

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 04:44 PM
Stupid question time.

Why are you red Richard?

I'm guessing it's because I'm an industry sponsor? Not sure, maybe Gareth can enlighten us...

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 04:48 PM
You're saying eSCR is not more complicated than open circuit?!

Completely, in the same way an Apple Mac is less complicated than a ZX Spectrum. Engineer out the complications to the point where there is only one required response to a system problem.

Fatalities generally get caused by;

Error occurring
User has several options to choose from to solve the problem
User chooses wrong answer

If there is only one option available to solve a problem, then the user cannot choose the wrong one. Give a dive computer to a Open Water student and ask them what each piece of information on screen means...

my 8 y/o niece could use the Hollis Explorer, and she doesn't dive!

*Although I'd never go as far to say it's 'idiot proof', as that's often seen as a challenge for idiots ;-)

RichardHowes
31-12-2012, 05:19 PM
A little tongue in cheek... but i'm not sure this is the best model on which to release a product you hope will change the industry.......

Agreed, but aforementioned diver was ignored by shop staff for 15 minutes...some people just don't like making a profit! (This was witnessed in my time as PADI Regional Manager).

AndrewR
31-12-2012, 07:05 PM
Unless there are significant discounts to dive centres, I still don't see how this can take off. Compare the cost for the dive centre of lets say three rebreathers vs OC. I genuinely would love to see the business case for that.

WFO
31-12-2012, 07:15 PM
Same thing was said by some daft audience members at EuroTek to Mr Toomer.

We have computers flying our airliners, yet people still believe they are better at monitoring a handset and manually injecting :-( 50% of the population are below average intelligence, yet 90% say they're above average. Go figure.

All Rec RBs are designed for 1 option in emergency. They're not Tech RBs and never intend to be.

As mentioned several times, we're in an industry where the limiting factor is the current mindset of 'New RB...it must be a tec unit...why does it do ted?...wouldn't want one of those...'

Lots of people in the industry are alredy signed up for thee units in their centres as they see it as a new technology that can attract new people to the sport. Hollis Worldwide is already onto the travel market and has the plans in place for this with rental units being implemented in holiday markets and at home in the UK.

Apart from the 'Will it do deco; NO' questions, does anyone here work in the UK industry as a pro and see any issues with this being used by brand new divers to dive on?

Which bit is daft?

The conventional SCR units had it about sussed years ago and they didn't really sell well. They are dead easy to use and don't have any complicated electronics to worry about except for the monitoring. You could easily stick some cells on one of those a lot simpler with some banging and flashy lights for if it stops working.

My experience of brand new divers is there are some who have the right mindset to handle a proper unit, and some who after 10 attempts still don't understand the difference between a DIN and an A clamp!


I'm not surprised places that want to jump on the bandwagon and sell lots of them and the profitable courses to go with them have them in there but I don't think many will sell TBH. I think you're asking in the wrong place if you expect everyone to tell you they'll be joining the back of the queue.

Maybe the apple mac comparison is about right, I don't understand the people who buy the latest iPhone every year either!

matt
31-12-2012, 08:18 PM
I'm a big fan of CCR for three types of dive - long, quiet, deep. Personally I'd only ever consider eCCR. There may be a market for this - but it's tiny IMHO. People with 4K to splash are not buying units - they are on a 4 week trip to the Maldives in 5* accommodation and flying Club.

If you can get them into the PADI supply chain then you've a chance. Personal rec. market - no chance. I wait to be proven wrong.

I'd also get someone with a better CCR track record to cut the video ;-)

Matt.

johnny boy
31-12-2012, 08:50 PM
First off, i was at Eurotek and witnessed the questions posed. They weren't daft. i felt they were valid and reasonable. The presentation given by Paul could have gone better as well and wasnt helped by his nervousness - which he openly admitted during the seminar.

I love the idea Mr Hollis, but it's simply down to price that makes me doubt it's success.

anvill72
31-12-2012, 10:14 PM
Did you watch the video? Turn on gas, turn on handset, breathe...

How is that more complicated?

The unit is for the same customer who parks outside a centre on the double yellow lines in their Audi TT to get an air fill (been witness to this), they couldn't be bothered to carry their cylinder from the car park so would rather stump up the £60 fine from the Traffic Warden!

The same Open water diver who buys a £1000 Hollis DX300 drysuit (It's all we're making in the factory at the moment!). The same Open Water Diver who spends £500 on ali cylinders, £600 on a sidemount wing, £1000 on sidemount regs etc because they really want to do it.

As a worldwide company I can assure most people on here that we haven't done this to 'give it a go', as with the acquisition of the Prism2 and Sentinel systems, we see this as a long term strategy for the sport and something that consumers will move towards.

I was about to say I'm probably in your target market until the Audi TT comment :)

I don't dive an Audi and I don't park in double yellows if I can avoid it :) , but I'm a very recently qualified PADI AOW with just over 25 logged dives and a still high SAC (therefore definitely *NOT* a Tec, RecTec or whatever diver), who wants to safely extend dive times while staying in no deco limits. I'd love to actually dive to the NDL of EAN36 @ 30m but my air won't last that long. Currently my only option is to use a 15L cylinder. If only there was an alternative that wasn't as heavy, and not too much more expensive!

I'd find it hard to justify £4k and I'm definitely a one-percenter or thereabouts (admittedly I also have to support a housewife and 4 kids). If I was going to negotiate spending that kind of dosh with SWMOB, I'd want to justify it as something that was going to continue to be useful for a very long time.

How soon before you put that level of safety and automation and simplification into a CCR? That might entice me.

I can only see myself using one of these as a hire on holiday.

Baz
31-12-2012, 10:23 PM
It's a thing of beauty.

Can we have 2 on free trial along with the training and we will write a full review into how easy it is to get into CCR please? :D

dmainou
01-01-2013, 01:34 AM
I'm a very recently qualified PADI AOW with just over 25 logged dives and a still high SAC (therefore definitely *NOT* a Tec, RecTec or whatever diver), who wants to safely extend dive times while staying in no deco limits.

Humbly, I'd suggest to dive many more times the number of logged dives before you think of doing something like this.

You are right in that you are the target market. I'd also believe that once you've completed 150+ dives you'll see the issue at hand in a better light. Improving your sac is about fitness and relaxation.

Rebreathers kill more people than you think. You'll need to ask yourself if the benefits outweigh the risks and if you can appropriately evaluate them with 25 dives on your belt.

If you choose to dive one you should do so with the eyes wide open. There is no such a thing as a recreational rebrether.

The natural following question is if you are happy to run the risks, if this machine will take you everywhere you wish to go and if it doesn't what is the delta in terms of dollars to achieve your objective. You'll find very very quickly that you don't need a lot more to have a fully capable unit.

Thus why I think other posters have expressed their doubts about the unit.

D



Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

Jackdiver
01-01-2013, 04:26 AM
Humbly, I'd suggest to dive many more times the number of logged dives before you think of doing something like this.

You are right in that you are the target market. I'd also believe that once you've completed 150+ dives you'll see the issue at hand in a better light. Improving your sac is about fitness and relaxation.

Rebreathers kill more people than you think. You'll need to ask yourself if the benefits outweigh the risks and if you can appropriately evaluate them with 25 dives on your belt.

If you choose to dive one you should do so with the eyes wide open. There is no such a thing as a recreational rebrether.

The natural following question is if you are happy to run the risks, if this machine will take you everywhere you wish to go and if it doesn't what is the delta in terms of dollars to achieve your objective. You'll find very very quickly that you don't need a lot more to have a fully capable unit.

Thus why I think other posters have expressed their doubts about the unit.

D



Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

Ha ha ha

Right...

B...S..

matt
01-01-2013, 09:16 AM
I'm definitely a one-percenter or thereabouts

What do you call top 1%...

Matt.

nickb
01-01-2013, 09:24 AM
People like me and you Matt, earning a fortune and living the dream.

anvill72
01-01-2013, 09:39 AM
Humbly, I'd suggest to dive many more times the number of logged dives before you think of doing something like this.

You are right in that you are the target market. I'd also believe that once you've completed 150+ dives you'll see the issue at hand in a better light. Improving your sac is about fitness and relaxation.
That is precisely my plan!

I just thought I'd give the feedback that the OP asked for: from a non-tec diver in the "target market" as all the other replies seemed to be from techies...

Don't worry I am in no great hurry to use a rebreather. Plenty to learn first. I can see how someone in a hurry and with more money than sense would be tempted, though.

matt
01-01-2013, 09:42 AM
People like me and you Matt, earning a fortune and living the dream.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc497/MatthewOutram/TDF/thanksbutton_zps5e3e5aa6.png

anvill72
01-01-2013, 09:49 AM
What do you call top 1%...

Matt.

Estimating the UK one percent: A public service message (http://jweeks.org/42%20UK%20One%20percent.html)

matt
01-01-2013, 09:53 AM
Estimating the UK one percent: A public service message (http://jweeks.org/42%20UK%20One%20percent.html)

"over (£)150,000, in the Big Number One Club"

Baz
01-01-2013, 09:54 AM
Humbly, I'd suggest to dive many more times the number of logged dives before you think of doing something like this.

You are right in that you are the target market. I'd also believe that once you've completed 150+ dives you'll see the issue at hand in a better light. Improving your sac is about fitness and relaxation.



Why bother? This sounds like the old BSAC mindset of 15 weeks learning to use a snorkel that will never come out of the box unless you are training

If you know you are an obssessor someone who throws themselves into a hobby or sport with wild abandon and you are going to zoom through every level of training and be taking a Normoxic course in 2 years. Why not go straight to a rec rebreather and start like that?

No doubt if you have the bank balance to spend £4k + training + all the other kit right at the start, chopping it in for a different unit in 2 years time isn't going to matter to you?

I don't see why OW or the equivalent can't be done on a unit like this eventually and I don't think that time is far off.

matt
01-01-2013, 10:06 AM
Why bother? This sounds like the old BSAC mindset of 15 weeks learning to use a snorkel that will never come out of the box unless you are training

If you know you are an obssessor someone who throws themselves into a hobby or sport with wild abandon and you are going to zoom through every level of training and be taking a Normoxic course in 2 years. Why not go straight to a rec rebreather and start like that?

No doubt if you have the bank balance to spend £4k + training + all the other kit right at the start, chopping it in for a different unit in 2 years time isn't going to matter to you?

I don't see why OW or the equivalent can't be done on a unit like this eventually and I don't think that time is far off.

I used to think like this - but now I'm not sure. There's a lot of ancillary skills when you first start out - like mask clearing, buoyancy, finning, operating a suit and wing, dealing with a torch. etc. I think these skills are best mastered in the less insidious world of OC. In car terms I feel it's like having an RS6 as the first-car. It's doable, but learning the basics of road-craft in a Mini and then moving up through the power ranges gives a better (safer) end result.

But I accept that amongst the top 1%'ers that moving straight to a CCR may happen. I remember when people said that the MkVI wouldn't kill anyone - but that's not true any more either.

Matt.

Nitnab Nhoj
01-01-2013, 10:11 AM
People like me and you Matt, earning a fortune and living the dream.

In Cardiff?

dmainou
01-01-2013, 10:16 AM
Why bother? This sounds like the old BSAC mindset of 15 weeks learning to use a snorkel that will never come out of the box unless you are training

You do as you think it's right but 25 dives will hardly allow for some proper bad weather, strong current, etc. You may think that after 25 dives you qualify as a hero but are you?

I agree with you about not taking too long to do things however I completely disagree about rushing into things.

A number of my friends will do north of 150 recreational dives every year so if someone is really keen it's not too much to ask.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

anvill72
01-01-2013, 10:18 AM
Agree with Matt. There's just too much to learn to begin with. Basic skills then relaxation and practice are essential before moving on to more advanced stuff.

Over confidence is a dangerous thing.

Mark Chase
01-01-2013, 11:24 AM
Its not complicated but its very scary for someone who understands how a CCR works and is used to its failure modes.


People have died on the Posiden version of this unit, and that was also suposed to be fool proof.

ATB

Mark

Baz
01-01-2013, 11:34 AM
This is a rec rebreather I believe. With it's main target market of no deco, 30m recreational divers. Give it 2 years and that's all the Russians will be diving in Egypt.:)

Problem equals bail out to open circuit nitrox on the built in reg and ascend, this in line with the PADI rec CCR courses.

There was a time that twinsets were the work of the devil, now every Tom, Dick and Harriet dives with them. Nitrox was inherently dangerous, now you get it free on many dive boats if you are "qualified" (I use this term loosely). Deco was for commercial divers and the elite now you only need 30 logged dives and a Cert.

I remember going to Stoney and seeing a the usual group of CCR divers that all turned up in their Range Rovers and thinking how would any normal person afford to dive CCR? Four or 5 years on and the number of rebreather divers that are not wealthy but have sold every bit of their OC gear and maxed out their card to get their unit probably secondhand has grown incredibly.

I am not saying all these changes are good and no doubt the skill set, experience and level of competence has diminished due to the changes in getting people there faster but we need new stuff otherwise the dive industry will wither and die.



There you go Richard I have talked it up enough now. Can I have my 2 free trial units please? :D

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 12:07 PM
I used to think like this - but now I'm not sure. There's a lot of ancillary skills when you first start out - like mask clearing, buoyancy, finning, operating a suit and wing, dealing with a torch. etc. I think these skills are best mastered in the less insidious world of OC. In car terms I feel it's like having an RS6 as the first-car. It's doable, but learning the basics of road-craft in a Mini and then moving up through the power ranges gives a better (safer) end result.


Why would learning buoyancy on a CCR be different to OC when you have never dived before? You're teaching a new skills set to someone who does not have any previous experience of doing it 'the other way'.

matt
01-01-2013, 12:11 PM
Observations not criticism of the post:


This is a rec rebreather I believe. With it's main target market of no deco, 30m recreational divers.

Oxymoron? Can a CCR be a recreational device? I used to think so - but now I'm not so sure.


Problem equals bail out to open circuit nitrox on the built in reg and ascend, this in line with the PADI rec CCR courses.

Personally I think the "if in doubt bail-out" is a great mantra. But read it carefully - what does doubt mean? It doesn't mean any problem, or a knee-jerk reaction - it implies that there has been some analysis and now there is some residual uncertainty. That's how I read it. I believe that the CCR diver who plans the primary fix as bail-out rather than analyse and fix on-loop is a mishap waiting to happen.

Maybe it's OK for shallow dives - in which case perhaps the unit should auto-ascend when time is up...


There you go Richard I have talked it up enough now. Can I have my 2 free trial units please? :D

:-)

Matt.

matt
01-01-2013, 12:13 PM
Why would learning buoyancy on a CCR be different to OC when you have never dived before? You're teaching a new skills set to someone who does not have any previous experience of doing it 'the other way'.

I suspect you missed the point deliberately, my apologies if this is not the case. Question back: Why would learning to steer in an RS6 be any different to Mini Metro for a driver with a fresh licence?

Matt.

Baz
01-01-2013, 12:29 PM
Maybe it's OK for shallow dives - in which case perhaps the unit should auto-ascend when time is up...


Matt.

If it could self level (Maybe when your out of trim, flash on the HUD saying "You're shit, I've fixed it for you") and have an auto depth setting too please.

Mark Chase
01-01-2013, 12:41 PM
Why would learning buoyancy on a CCR be different to OC when you have never dived before? You're teaching a new skills set to someone who does not have any previous experience of doing it 'the other way'.



Thats just daft.

OC boyancy control is much much easier than CCR boyancy

I did an OC course recently having not dived OC since properly since 2004 and it was prety easy. CCR is hard with just a couple of months lay off.

But my concerns are with diver safety not with boyancy

ATB

Mark

matt
01-01-2013, 12:45 PM
If it could self level (Maybe when your out of trim, flash on the HUD saying "You're shit, I've fixed it for you") and have an auto depth setting too please.

Auto-bail out for ascent would be a key option for me.

Matt.

ebt
01-01-2013, 12:50 PM
Richard,

is there any difference in the marketing approach for this, above and beyond the usual sales model/promotion via instructors? I saw your comment on global support/spares, but the proof is in the pudding on that one.

Historically we've heard seen some interesting stuff tried, including 'units to rent in resort', but of course these have fallen at the hurdle of investment and liability management.... which then means the resort coverage is low.

I'd be interested to see how you plan to do something to change the usual model.


/Zak

ps. I've got my own opinions on recreational rebreathers, its your opinion Im interested in.

HeBails
01-01-2013, 12:54 PM
Gross or Net?


"over (£)150,000, in the Big Number One Club"

anvill72
01-01-2013, 01:06 PM
Gross or Net?

AFAIK Gross.

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 01:13 PM
ps. I've got my own opinions on recreational rebreathers, its your opinion Im interested in.

Tec CCR with high user dependancy / interaction will always be the small numbers. Recreational diving has remained unchange for the past 40-ish year. When people swapped from ABLJs, the pitchforks were waved, when dive computers became mainstream, the pitchforks were waved.

The only thing I have found out from my limited time in the industry in various roles is that the centres, and professionals in the industry are generally about 2-3 years behind the rest of the world. That's not meant as an insult, it simply means that a new idea or concept for doing something (teaching non-divers to learn straight into a eSCR) takes about 2-3 years to become the 'norm'.

Therefore I foresee that the dive industry will be quite a different place in 5 years time, and eSCR will be a normality. Oceanic got the same resistance to dive computers when Bob Hollis presented the first DataMax back in 1981.

My opinion is that recreational rebreathers will grow in popularity over the coming years. The HE will do nearly everything pre-dive for the diver, so technology will only increase to close the user gap further over the coming year.

matt
01-01-2013, 01:20 PM
Gross or Net?

Gross (table is taxable income).

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 01:23 PM
Personally I think the "if in doubt bail-out" is a great mantra. But read it carefully - what does doubt mean? It doesn't mean any problem, or a knee-jerk reaction - it implies that there has been some analysis and now there is some residual uncertainty. That's how I read it. I believe that the CCR diver who plans the primary fix as bail-out rather than analyse and fix on-loop is a mishap waiting to happen.


Why would you not bail out as a recreational diver? That's the whole point. They're not in deco, they have very little tissue loading (being on optimum mix), and can ascend directly to the surface. It's the equivalent of 'securing your buddies octo and make your way home'.

Difficulty comes, when viewing the situation as a diver, because the inherent habit is to compare the systems and skills to those that you have already learned, instead of looking from a non-diver consumer perspective.

The same situation happened in the ski industry 30 years ago. Number started dropping at ski schools, and when questioned, consumers found learning to ski difficult and a barrier to being a 'skier'. The design of the ski was changed (shorter and wider), to assist the user in the learning process. New skiers rose again and the sport was rejuvenated.

I think that sometimes we become self defeating. The old attitude of 'It was hard to learn when I did it, so it should be hard and difficult for you too' is destructive to the industry as a whole. Making things more difficult to learn and adding more steps doesn't reduce fatalities or accidents. Only good attitude to safety can do that.

By engineering out the errors, reducing the number of steps a user needs to take to solve a problem may not reduce accidents (see my previous points about 'better idiots'), but it will certainly reduce barriers to entry.

As for price? Yep, they'll be premium products to start with, but having several friends who have spent upwards of £3k on mountain bikes, the top end will always filter down.

Given access to the technology I think there will be most of the main recreational manufacturers licensing or build eSCR / rCCR in 5 years time.

matt
01-01-2013, 01:29 PM
Tec CCR with high user dependancy / interaction will always be the small numbers. Recreational diving has remained unchange for the past 40-ish year. When people swapped from ABLJs, the pitchforks were waved, when dive computers became mainstream, the pitchforks were waved.

Actually I didn't see any pitchfork waving for ABLJ's or dive computers - my branch (BSAC) welcomed these with open arms. But EANx and Trimix were a different thing. As as decompression diving.


Therefore I foresee that the dive industry will be quite a different place in 5 years time, and eSCR will be a normality. Oceanic got the same resistance to dive computers when Bob Hollis presented the first DataMax back in 1981.

My opinion is that recreational rebreathers will grow in popularity over the coming years. The HE will do nearly everything pre-dive for the diver, so technology will only increase to close the user gap further over the coming year.

I don't think so. CCR's been about for 15 years now and the thing that puts people off is a) price and b) complexity.

If you can get a) right (£1500?) you may persuade people to start with CCR. But I don't think b) is overcome yet - nor do I think it ever will be.

On price the argument that it's not more expensive than OC falls flat on its fanny when you look at how people buy kit like computers incrementally - CCR is all-in before you even know you like it.

I'm happy to be wrong - I'm not a marketing person - just doesn't feel right to me - and I'm not sure the direction is healthy.

Matt.

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 01:29 PM
I suspect you missed the point deliberately, my apologies if this is not the case. Question back: Why would learning to steer in an RS6 be any different to Mini Metro for a driver with a fresh licence?

Matt.
Who is talking about a license? We're talking about people learning to drive for the first time in two different cars.

RS6 Audi would probably be slightly easier, higher torque would be more forgiving on poor clutch control, power steering may be more assistive, more stable road holding, etc etc. Either car would be adequate, but are we talking about making it harder or easier to learn? If so, see my previous post. If your talking about making it safer or more dangerous then this is not car specific, but driver specific.

However, I guess you're talking about putting a learner straight out into an RS6 with no supervision? If that's the case, then you're not comparing apples with apples.

How many teenagers die behind the wheel of an RS6? How many die being the wheel of a Citroen Saxo? Technology is not the problem, the d(r)ivers attitude will always be the overiding safety factor.

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 01:31 PM
and I'm not sure the direction is healthy.

Matt.

Explain? What does this mean?

matt
01-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Which units have you dived, Richard? How does this new one compare to them in terms of operational CCR thinking?

Matt.


Why would you not bail out as a recreational diver? That's the whole point. They're not in deco, they have very little tissue loading (being on optimum mix), and can ascend directly to the surface. It's the equivalent of 'securing your buddies octo and make your way home'.

Difficulty comes, when viewing the situation as a diver, because the inherent habit is to compare the systems and skills to those that you have already learned, instead of looking from a non-diver consumer perspective.

The same situation happened in the ski industry 30 years ago. Number started dropping at ski schools, and when questioned, consumers found learning to ski difficult and a barrier to being a 'skier'. The design of the ski was changed (shorter and wider), to assist the user in the learning process. New skiers rose again and the sport was rejuvenated.

I think that sometimes we become self defeating. The old attitude of 'It was hard to learn when I did it, so it should be hard and difficult for you too' is destructive to the industry as a whole. Making things more difficult to learn and adding more steps doesn't reduce fatalities or accidents. Only good attitude to safety can do that.

By engineering out the errors, reducing the number of steps a user needs to take to solve a problem may not reduce accidents (see my previous points about 'better idiots'), but it will certainly reduce barriers to entry.

As for price? Yep, they'll be premium products to start with, but having several friends who have spent upwards of £3k on mountain bikes, the top end will always filter down.

Given access to the technology I think there will be most of the main recreational manufacturers licensing or build eSCR / rCCR in 5 years time.

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 01:33 PM
I don't think so. CCR's been about for 15 years now and the thing that puts people off is a) price and b) complexity.

Matt.

I'm guessing you've ignored the fact that we're not talking about CCRs here? The Explorer is a whole different machine from everything else that's on the market. It's not even comparable to the Draegers of yesteryear.

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 01:45 PM
Which units have you dived, Richard? How does this new one compare to them in terms of operational CCR thinking?

Matt.

Again, it is absolutely nothing like any other CCR, as its an eSCR.

Predive breathe = 1 minute. Gas switched on, Put it on (BCD not wing), breathe it, computer say 'Dive', get in the water.

Sentinel = sit around for 5 minutes pre breathe, hope a HP sensor doesn't bum out ;-), lug its massive bulk towards the water on your back after struggling getting into the 1 piece H&*^lcy&n harness and backplate.

Poseidon - cannot comment due to professionalism :-)


Again, I cannot say it enough, you cannot compare the Poseidon, AP, Sentinel, Meg, JJ, or any other CCR unit to the Explorer. Apples and Oranges.

Baz
01-01-2013, 01:54 PM
If only you had called it iSCR and put a picture of a half eaten piece of fruit on it. Everyone would buy one.

RichardHowes
01-01-2013, 02:30 PM
If only you had called it iSCR and put a picture of a half eaten piece of fruit on it. Everyone would buy one.

so so true ;)

matt
01-01-2013, 03:01 PM
However, I guess you're talking about putting a learner straight out into an RS6 with no supervision? If that's the case, then you're not comparing apples with apples.

My apologies for the need for a fruit-based comparison. I thought we were discussing if a rebreather (I'll avoid CCR usage even though I was using it generically) was a good place to start with learning to dive. I'm suggesting it is not because there is more to diving than the kit and any rebreather puts too much emphasis on the kit when, in the early days, I'm suggesting that the emphasis should be on more mundane things like clearing your ears and not losing your fins.


How many teenagers die behind the wheel of an RS6? How many die being the wheel of a Citroen Saxo? Technology is not the problem, the d(r)ivers attitude will always be the overiding safety factor.

I think we'll move on from the car analogy - we can agree to differ.


Explain? What does this mean?

I'm asking if the general community think that this type of unit is really what the market wants - is it the direction the community will move towards or will they stumble on how complicated the rebreather is when compared to 3 straps and a mechanical valve?


I'm guessing you've ignored the fact that we're not talking about CCRs here? The Explorer is a whole different machine from everything else that's on the market. It's not even comparable to the Draegers of yesteryear.

[1m14s] - "the unit can decide when it wants to be a semi-closed system and when it wants to be a fully closed-system"
[1m26s] - "think of it as a ppO2 controller on a fully closed unit but the pO2 changes with depth"
[1m56s] - "closed-circuit switch"
[3m04s] - "the LLS, the Life Support System"
[5m35s] - "the rebreather needs oxygen sensors, it has a CO2 sensor as well, and it has a thermal array"
[6m37s] - "this is the other end of the solenoid"
[7m10s] - "because it is a semi-closed unit it is adding gas almost all the time, although with the PO2 controller it can decide not to do that"
[8m33s] - "virtually a fully automated pre-dvie systems so you as an end userjust have to be able to open a mouthpiece, turn on a cylinder valve and breathe"

Looks like an eCCR to me, minus the O2, plus the Nitrox. In some ways I wonder whether it is actually more complicated - what will all those wireless parts and the vast automation?


Again, it is absolutely nothing like any other CCR, as its an eSCR.

It's almost the same as a regular eCCR but working on Nitrox with a fart-valve?

The main advantage looks to be the zero chance of high PO2 as there isn't any, but there is still the risk of hypoxia.


Again, I cannot say it enough, you cannot compare the Poseidon, AP, Sentinel, Meg, JJ, or any other CCR unit to the Explorer. Apples and Oranges.

Which ones have you dived? How many hours?

HNY,
Matt.

Nitnab Nhoj
01-01-2013, 04:27 PM
The crucial weakness of any dive kit is the determination of the user to carry on diving when it is not working correctly, flashing red light or vibrating mouthpiece or not.

Ruffy
01-01-2013, 04:34 PM
The crucial weakness of any dive kit is the determination of the user to carry on diving when it is not working correctly, flashing red light or vibrating mouthpiece or not.

Can't blame the unit for the silly fooker strapped into it!

matt
01-01-2013, 04:36 PM
The crucial weakness of any dive kit is the determination of the user to carry on diving when it is not working correctly, flashing red light or vibrating mouthpiece or not.

How many teenagers die behind the wheel of an RS6? How many die being the wheel of a Citroen Saxo? Technology is not the problem, the d(r)ivers attitude will always be the overriding safety factor.

Major Clanger
04-01-2013, 10:39 PM
At one time I may have been part of the target audience for this type of machine. However, after a bit of research thought fcuk it and went straight for the full monty at the same price with the same skills to learn for the same price. Good luck nevertheless and hope there's a niche out there that makes it's development worthwhile. Without companies and individuals pushing new ideas, whether it works out or not, the sport doesn't develop.

Hot Totty
04-01-2013, 10:56 PM
Could be a bun fight, the other 'recreational' bereaver just dumped its price :D

Gary
04-01-2013, 11:11 PM
Therefore I foresee that the dive industry will be quite a different place in 5 years time ...................


I seem to remember Alex Deas saying the same, about 5 years ago

matt
04-01-2013, 11:17 PM
I seem to remember Alex Deas saying the same, about 5 years ago

And it is - all units except the iCCR are 5 years more mature!

hippytyre
04-01-2013, 11:40 PM
50% of the population are below average intelligence, yet 90% say they're above average

Eh?

anvill72
05-01-2013, 07:50 AM
Eh?

Statistically speaking, half the people you know are below average.

matt
05-01-2013, 08:49 AM
Statistically speaking, half the people you know are below average.

I hadn't noticed that the (rather iffy IMHO) IQ calculation had done away with mental-age in favour of 100-mean average (chart below and quote).

This is a shame as I was looking forwards to becoming clever as I grew older.

Matt.


An IQ of 100 is considered average. An IQ of 70 or below indicates mental retardation, and an IQ of 130 or above indicates gifted abilities.

Read more: How is IQ calculated?: Information from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/how-is-iq-calculated#ixzz2H5aG3uYW)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/IQ_curve.svg/350px-IQ_curve.svg.png

JPTaylor
05-01-2013, 09:25 AM
Statistically speaking, half the people you know are below average.

When you say "average" are we talking mean, median or mode!? :D

Regthing
05-01-2013, 09:59 AM
I'm not a RB diver, I will be when but not yet. I agree with most if the comments on here regarding a lack of need/desire/market for this box but a couple of points you make don't make sense to me.

You say this is for the diver that tips up in his TT and parks on double yellows to get a fill, however the scrubber is either bought pre-packed or filled by a Hollis service centre. I presume these centres have dedicated parking to prevent the illegal actions prior to spending £4K? What's the difference between getting your tanks filled or scrubber re-packed?

Also on that note. It looks like you won't be training the user to re-pack the scrubber, yet the scrubber is re-packable... is that not a problem waiting to happen. Your TT driver isn't going to want to risk another ticket once he has realised that he can refill it himself, yet not being trained may lead to poor practice.

Your analogy of trusting fly by wire aeroplanes, with there multiple back up systems and noncorrosive environment, yet not trusting RB electronics, with their limited backup and pressurised corrosive environment, are not really a fair apples for apples comparison.

Your friends that have spent £4K on mountain bikes. Was this their first bikes?

You say you have limited experience in the industry, yet you have a pretty clear, yet condradictory, image of the average diver. On one hand as someone keen on false economy (your dive show tank purchase anology), yet on the other someone who seems to overspend on dry suits and other non-RB equipment. Top class market research!

JPTaylor
05-01-2013, 10:03 AM
You say this is for the diver that tips up in his TT and parks on double yellows to get a fill, however the scrubber is either bought pre-packed or filled by a Hollis service centre. I presume these centres have dedicated parking to prevent the illegal actions prior to spending £4K? What's the difference between getting your tanks filled or scrubber re-packed?

I wouldn't be surprised if on the QT, these divers were shown how to pack their own scrubbers....

Treerat
05-01-2013, 10:10 AM
I like the idea.

Pick it up, shove in the fill, go diving, come back, wash it off, throw it in the garage, pick it up.........................................

I like the idea of cartridge fill, but would also need a way of filling my own - can't see every dive centre, venue, shop having the kit or skills.

£4K!! I believe this keeps it out of the recreational upgrader (me) try explaining that to the wife!!

Regthing
05-01-2013, 10:28 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if on the QT, these divers were shown how to pack their own scrubbers....

You would hope so but it's also a revenue stream for Hollis, they have to pay for the free servicing somehow. Would be interesting to see if any special tools are required or weither they are designed to be easily refilled.

I just read the report on the Poseidon Discovery and it sounds like refillable cartridges are available from Tekme, implying that the standard ones aren't

JPTaylor
05-01-2013, 10:37 AM
£4K!! I believe this keeps it out of the recreational upgrader (me) try explaining that to the wife!!

Do what Mark Chase does & tell your wife it's only £400!!! :D

Mike Ward
05-01-2013, 10:45 AM
Three things need to happen for these units to sell in volume: They have to be simple to use, as simple as OC, they have to be much cheaper to buy, say £1000 including basic training, and they have to be seen as safe and reliable.

The Hollis and the Poseidon are genuine attempts at simple to use units, and if more units are used recreationally (Less than 30m, and especially a mindset of 'any problems and I bail') then safety will improve. As sales volume grows, price will fall. I just wonder if it can fall enough.

Anyway, if you want a better analogy than cars, think underwater photography. Back in the day a decent 35mm underwater camera with flashgun and wide-angle lens would cost you nearly two grand - I know, I still have the receipt from 1992 for my Nikonos V. Come to that, I still have the Nik V itself, but that isn't important. The Nik V could produce superb shots, but you had to be skilled and know a lot about photography to get them. Today I can order a digital compact and housing on-line for £300 or so, stick it on underwater mode and get good shots without doing any more than point and press. That's what the recreational rebreather guys need to achieve, and I assume they're looking at exactly that market as a model for their own success. In the days of film you very rarely saw a diver with a camera. Today, especially places like the Red Sea, you rarely see a diver without a camera.

JPTaylor
05-01-2013, 10:49 AM
Three things need to happen for these units to sell in volume: They have to be simple to use, as simple as OC, they have to be much cheaper to buy, say £1000 including basic training, and they have to be seen as safe and reliable.

How much does a basic OC kit cost these days, must be at least a grand..... and that excludes any training.

Treerat
05-01-2013, 11:34 AM
How much does a basic OC kit cost these days, must be at least a grand..... and that excludes any training.

Regs - ATX 40s - £250
BCD, ND Guardian - £200
Cylinder, 12l £170

Total set - £620
And that's without chasing round for any deals :)

JPTaylor
05-01-2013, 12:14 PM
Regs - ATX 40s - £250
BCD, ND Guardian - £200
Cylinder, 12l £170

Total set - £620
And that's without chasing round for any deals :)

What about a suit of some kind, mask, fins gloves & other bits and your at a grand easily...

Nitnab Nhoj
05-01-2013, 12:22 PM
What about a suit of some kind, mask, fins gloves & other bits and your at a grand easily...

You'll probably need those OC, SCR or CCR.

Mike Ward
05-01-2013, 12:33 PM
Regs - ATX 40s - £250
BCD, ND Guardian - £200
Cylinder, 12l £170

Total set - £620
And that's without chasing round for any deals :)

Add a basic computer and a PADI Open Water course and you're at a grand.

That's the market Hollis and Poseidon are going for.

ebt
05-01-2013, 12:54 PM
The Hollis and the Poseidon are genuine attempts at simple to use units, and if more units are used recreationally (Less than 30m, and especially a mindset of 'any problems and I bail') then safety will improve. As sales volume grows, price will fall. I just wonder if it can fall enough.


'Recreational' diving to me is splat diving. Punter slings tank of air on (or maybe nitrox), then goes splat. Swims around for a bit, looks at the fuel guage, then says 'time to go home'. It just works.

The industry wants to believe that a 'new market' can be 'created' and they may be right, but I struggle to see that adding complexity (lime/sensors/electronics) to a very simple system (a tank) can do this. The dolphin tried this with limited success and it was a pretty damn simple unit. The fieno was also quite nice, but that seemed to fizzle too. You cant help but think someone is trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

Its possible that there is a market for rebreathers in 'recreational' diving, but its most likely to be niches (photographers etc). For the photographers its easy to argue that they need a foolproof unit with minimal tinkering, since they're already task loaded and time poor. Perhaps that market will grow as photography seems to be becoming more popular.... its a gamble.

Either way, I think people are delusional to claim that any rebreather is safer for recreational diving than the simplicity of open circuit.

HeBails
05-01-2013, 01:07 PM
Good luck with this, I've seen a few Mk VI's in the wild over the last few months so people are buying them (not sure if they were instructors or actual punters but at least you'll get centres flocking to buy this as Poseidon have found)
Given the market you're going after though, you'd better hope the reliability and build quality of this unit is better than some of the units I've seen being cobbled together by other manufacturers.
Maybe to avoid the trap you could, when friday rolls round, close the factory in the afternoon? :D

anvill72
05-01-2013, 01:08 PM
When you say "average" are we talking mean, median or mode!? :D

Yes!

matt
05-01-2013, 01:28 PM
Also on that note. It looks like you won't be training the user to re-pack the scrubber, yet the scrubber is re-packable... is that not a problem waiting to happen. Your TT driver isn't going to want to risk another ticket once he has realised that he can refill it himself, yet not being trained may lead to poor practice.

I totally agree with you, the pre-packed scrubber (presumably ExtendAir, or bog-roll) and the "filled by an instructor" is just a ploy to skip proper training a dumb down the device. I personally don't think the dumb-down device and bail-out if it goes wrong will work terribly well in practice because of the insidious way that these units can pinch you. But I'm told in this thread I am wrong. Time will tell.



Your friends that have spent £4K on mountain bikes. Was this their first bikes?


I doubt the bike analogy will make a dent - after all learning to drive in an RS6 is deemed perfectly fine, if not safer than a mini-metro!



You say you have limited experience in the industry, yet you have a pretty clear, yet condradictory, image of the average diver. On one hand as someone keen on false economy (your dive show tank purchase anology), yet on the other someone who seems to overspend on dry suits and other non-RB equipment. Top class market research!


Given a few days have gone by and we're no further on knowing if the commentator has a mod1 ticket I'm assuming not.

Matt.

Nitnab Nhoj
05-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Time will tell. After all, it was only a few years ago when some fool forecast that there would soon be a computer in every home!

matt
05-01-2013, 01:34 PM
I like the idea.

Pick it up, shove in the fill, go diving, come back, wash it off, throw it in the garage, pick it up.........................................

I like the idea of cartridge fill, but would also need a way of filling my own - can't see every dive centre, venue, shop having the kit or skills.

£4K!! I believe this keeps it out of the recreational upgrader (me) try explaining that to the wife!!

EAC's are about £22 each.

A tub of lime is about £60 so £7.50 a fill, plus the labour (say £5) plus the liability insurance - let's say a tenner. So about the same price. Plus and O2 fill.

Matt.

HeBails
05-01-2013, 01:36 PM
Can we just import the Apoc thread as we've been over the EAC argument ad nauseum on there iirc :D



EAC's are about £22 each.

A tub of lime is about £60 so £7.50 a fill, plus the labour (say £5) plus the liability insurance - let's say a tenner. So about the same price. Plus and O2 fill.

Matt.

matt
05-01-2013, 01:37 PM
Today I can order a digital compact and housing on-line for £300 or so, stick it on underwater mode and get good shots without doing any more than point and press. That's what the recreational rebreather guys need to achieve, and I assume they're looking at exactly that market as a model for their own success. In the days of film you very rarely saw a diver with a camera. Today, especially places like the Red Sea, you rarely see a diver without a camera.

I don't think the analogy holds. Cheap cameras came about because of the mass-market for small compact cameras and nothing to do with scuba industry. As soon as we see people wearing rebreathers in everyday life we'll see the cost savings you allude to...

Nitnab Nhoj
05-01-2013, 01:40 PM
I see it as a an attempt to provide a single solution to different problems. I believe in using the right tools for the job. As amateurs we try to find job to fit the tools we like to own.

matt
05-01-2013, 01:44 PM
I see it as a an attempt to provide a single solution to different problems. I believe in using the right tools for the job. As amateurs we try to find job to fit the tools we like to own.

When I see PADI divers on holiday boats I don't see this kit solving any problem. They are diving to 30m for 20 mins or a 60min shallow dive without and problem and without much cost - just the boat fee and the included tank of air or Nitrox.

I cannot see these people being bothered with this pseudo-CCR where you don't have the advantage of PO2 but you have all the disadvantage of a rebreather.

Matt.

Nitnab Nhoj
05-01-2013, 02:17 PM
Twenty years ago:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32248864/Dive%20Forum1/Draeger2.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32248864/Dive%20Forum1/Draeger3.jpg

Mike Ward
05-01-2013, 02:19 PM
I don't think the analogy holds. Cheap cameras came about because of the mass-market for small compact cameras and nothing to do with scuba industry. As soon as we see people wearing rebreathers in everyday life we'll see the cost savings you allude to...

You're right, that's why we pay £150 for a moulded plastic box in which to place a camera containing a lot of very precisely made parts and plenty of very fancy electronics for which we also paid £150.

All scuba kit is overpriced when compared to real mass market goods like cameras, cars and fridges, but 'breathers are way, way over-priced cos they're sold in such small quantities. Somehow the price has to drop to OC levels if they're ever really going to be the mass-market choice.


I like the idea of splat diving. That's just what these things have to let you do.

Let's say we revisit this thread in five years and see how it's going?

AndrewR
05-01-2013, 02:25 PM
Let's say we revisit this thread in five years and see how it's going?

Assumes forum hasn't been bought out and everyone is still here;)

matt
05-01-2013, 02:44 PM
So why didn't they take off, BJ?

Nitnab Nhoj
05-01-2013, 03:10 PM
So why didn't they take off, BJ?


I was employed by Draeger to write a document with my opinion as to why they didn't show success in the market place. It was many thousands of words but a short abstract would be:



































They were shite.

ebt
05-01-2013, 04:04 PM
...another opinion is that they were a large portion of the cost of a full blown ccr without the benefit. The folks who were into widgets often converted them into CCR, then realised the scrubber wasnt up to the job for the diving they did. The folks who werent into all the faff usually flogged them and went back to open circuit.

The ones i saw in egypt were usually on the backs of people with cameras, more useful as time extenders/bubble minimisers.

Nitnab Nhoj
05-01-2013, 04:08 PM
The Draeger Atlantis SCR was available long before any commercially made CCR. As Christian Schultz often said in those days "It's not vapourware. You can buy one."

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32248864/Dive%20Forum1/IMG_1752.jpg

Note the Cert Number and the certifying instructors!

Irnbru
05-01-2013, 07:29 PM
Was that Rob in one of the above pictures.

Nitnab Nhoj
05-01-2013, 07:32 PM
Was that Rob in one of the above pictures.

Correct! You'll have to guess who the tall guy with all the hair was. :(

The others pictured were Pierce Hoover and Michelle Cove.

Irnbru
05-01-2013, 08:12 PM
Great pic! I was kindly given a film recently that had Rob doing some exploration at Cheddar - amazing stuff!

Subsequently read your article (March '99) on Divernet.

Vearing back on topic - I just cannot see anyone paying £4k and I can't see it being picked at club level as an option for newbies (as has been touted).

Perhaps for liveaboards and overseas resorts - but not for trainees/new divers in the UK. A 50 minute dive in Loch Long is long enough for anybody...

thetrickster
05-01-2013, 08:58 PM
As much as I love Hollis stuff and all things electric you can take under the sea, this is history repeating itself again with the Dolphin and the like, and sadly I can't see it being the game changer it's being made to be. I LOVE the idea and the principle behind it, but it's just the cost....

£4k ??? Way way too much. Needs at least to be £1999 bracket, if not half that again.

I appreciate Hollis have done their home work on target market and have invested a lot into this, so i presume they know what they are doing - but I honestly don't get it.

They are rolling out all the big guns, to promote and lavish positive comments on it, but when I first started diving, I had no idea who Jill, Phil or Kevin where and I doubt any newbie divers do either, so association with these people I think means very little and once you do get to recognise these names, you are probably diving twins or have a full blown ccr anyway, and so you are not Hollis' target market.

New divers, once qualified check out what the instructor is using, look at the shop and then go buy it online - most of them want value, and to get diving straight away (so as little outlay as poss) either that or they will get qualified and only dive again at Sandals etc.

Another thing is OC gear can be purchased bit by bit, computer one month, regs the next, bcd at Xmas, and once you have the base 'kit' - that's it, nothing goes out of date (ie cells), nothing needs fine lubing or particular special care - dust cap on and raise in fresh water etc...and if you don't have all the gear, you just rent the bit you need. Plus the simplicity of OC for new dives, it's easy to understand and find/fix faults. Not a CCR/SCR.

I hope it does do well, and hope one day there will be a £1000 version - that will be the game changer.

Rich
(Dives OC and Trimix CCR)

ootini
07-01-2013, 04:01 PM
Hello, as someone who has very little knowledge, and no experience of rebreathers whether they're CCR or SCR. Can someone try and sell the Hollies Explorer to me? What I mean is I don't quite get what it's for. I always thought the point in a box was the advantages of gas consumption and control over the pp02 and could therefore be used "practically" much deeper than standard OC kit. If this thing is limited to using 32-40% then why would I buy it? I'm genuinely clueless about bereavers so if I'm being thick I apologise. But why would I spend £4k on a machine that will allow me to do exactly the same dive my OC twinset will allow me to do, but with more limitations? (As in my OC kit doesn't limit me in anyway, it can grow and be modified). I'm not trying to dis this thing, I may just be missing the point in it.

Dave Lev
07-01-2013, 04:09 PM
Hello, as someone who has very little knowledge, and no experience of rebreathers whether they're CCR or SCR. Can someone try and sell the Hollies Explorer to me? What I mean is I don't quite get what it's for. I always thought the point in a box was the advantages of gas consumption and control over the pp02 and could therefore be used "practically" much deeper than standard OC kit. If this thing is limited to using 32-40% then why would I buy it? I'm genuinely clueless about bereavers so if I'm being thick I apologise. But why would I spend £4k on a machine that will allow me to do exactly the same dive my OC twinset will allow me to do, but with more limitations? (As in my OC kit doesn't limit me in anyway, it can grow and be modified). I'm not trying to dis this thing, I may just be missing the point in it.

Sounds almost identical to my question (post 6). Apparently, we're both already more technical than the target market (Post 7 (http://www.thediveforum.com/semi-closed-circuit-rebreather-general-information/506-hollis-explorer-due-soon-uk.html#post4015)).

anvill72
07-01-2013, 04:22 PM
Can someone try and sell the Hollies Explorer to me?
Buy it and you can actually do the NDL time on a 25m dive without running out of air even if you breathe 30l/min

A bargain at £4 grand.

Make sure you mention my name with your order as I think I deserve commission!

thetrickster
07-01-2013, 04:23 PM
why would I spend £4k on a machine that will allow me to do exactly the same dive my OC twinset will allow me to do, but with more limitations?

From some online marketing - "The Explorer diver will benefit from breathing warm gas, have lots of bottom time, and since it does not produce any invasive bubbles, see more sea life than ever before."

I think I want more than that for £4k...

ootini
07-01-2013, 04:25 PM
Sounds almost identical to my question (post 6). Apparently, we're both already more technical than the target market (Post 7 (http://www.thediveforum.com/semi-closed-circuit-rebreather-general-information/506-hollis-explorer-due-soon-uk.html#post4015)).

Ahhh saw your question, but didn't see the response in post 7, just clocked it.

Well in that case I can't see me ever wanting one. And without boohooing the whole thing, I thought spending £350 on a twinset was expensive. So basically this thing is aimed at very rich people who want a gadget / toy.

johnny boy
07-01-2013, 06:38 PM
I remember the presentation at eurotek. coments about cost were dismissed out of hand. presenter said he wasnt interested in divers who dont have the cash for such a unit. i felt that was a tad crass, especially so in the 'economic climate'. sorry to use that cliche statement.

Nitnab Nhoj
07-01-2013, 07:06 PM
My friend Bret has coffee machine that makes an excellent cup of coffee. I thought I'd get one but it was £1800. That's almost half way there and yet it doesn't even make tea. Recession doesn't seem to affect the rich.

Irnbru
07-01-2013, 08:43 PM
I have a voice activated coffee machine, it didn't cost anything to start off with but the ongoing maintenance has been a bit steep - but she will hit me, if she hears that!

And the thread tangent begins...

Nitnab Nhoj
07-01-2013, 09:31 PM
I have a voice activated coffee machine, it didn't cost anything to start off with but the ongoing maintenance has been a bit steep - but she will hit me, if she hears that!

And the thread tangent begins...
You're not Scottish are you?

Irnbru
08-01-2013, 09:55 AM
Nitnab - your powers of deduction serve you well, Basil Rathbone's protégé reveals himself...

Mark Chase
08-01-2013, 10:08 AM
Correct! You'll have to guess who the tall guy with all the hair was. :(

The others pictured were Pierce Hoover and Michelle Cove.



Why is Rob stabbing you in the stomoch :D


ATB

Mark

Nitnab Nhoj
08-01-2013, 10:17 AM
Why is Rob stabbing you in the stomoch :D


ATB

Mark

We were on a boat and he was clinging on to me so that he didn't fall overboard. Well. that's the reason he gave although I have to admit I WAS pretty tasty in those days!

Ian_6301
08-01-2013, 10:35 AM
It's not going to catch on in the UK.

Scenario: I have money to burn (say 6K-ish) and want to learn to dive and am a gadget freak.

Do I (A) do a PADI OW and AOW package, here in the UK, using the new Hollis eSCR (£600 ish for both courses?), then buy one (£4k) and all the rest of the crap that we need for diving (£1.5k or so - Drysuit, fins, mask, weight belt, gloves, hood, computer blah blah blah) and then dive in the UK, doing 30ish metre dives?

or do I (B) do OW and AOW on OC (£600ish) plus an Adv Nitrox course (£500) and buy a full set of OC kit (twins, stage, plus all of the above - £4,500) and then go on a week's trip to Scapa with the change?

or do I (C) Spank it on a 2 week holiday in Mexico for SWMBO and I, do the OC course, buy no kit at all and just go abroad once or twice a year, diving OC?

or do I (D) DO the OC thing in UK, buy the basic kit and OW/AOW (£2100), do a handful of dives, then buy a secondhand Classic (£1500), plus a basic course, a bailout tin and do Mod1 in Malta?

All in all, I'm looking at Option B or D, depending on whether SWMBO is going to let me have a Bereaver or not. Jo Public is more likely to go for B. Even if you go for B, but using the eSCR, no holiday diver is going to buy one, they'll just rent in resort.

I know it probably makes sense for red sea / caribbean resorts and russian billionaires, but you'll have trouble shifting any significant volume of units in the UK.

It's a pity that you've got sucked into this debate, as it is (for UK diving at least) a bit of a white elephant. I like the Hollis brand and think that a lot of the kit is very good indeed. I hope it goes well for you, but I can't see how it will in the UK...

HeBails
08-01-2013, 10:45 AM
Just a thought: Extended bottom times are all well and good but don't most (if not all) recreational boats have a 60min time limit per dive?

Soggy
08-01-2013, 10:55 AM
Just a thought: Extended bottom times are all well and good but don't most (if not all) recreational boats have a 60min time limit per dive?

Would you take any notice if they did?

HeBails
08-01-2013, 10:56 AM
You know me..... Well known as a rule follower.....


Would you take any notice if they did?

edward
08-01-2013, 11:03 AM
You know me..... Well known as a rule follower.....

Don't tell them and do 120 mins. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission:)

Nitnab Nhoj
08-01-2013, 11:23 AM
Don't tell them and do 120 mins. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission:)

That's only an hour of searching for your body. It's not funny for dive guides when divers do that. It's a horrible feeling when you lose someone or THINK you have lost someone.

edward
08-01-2013, 11:36 AM
That's only an hour of searching for your body. It's not funny for dive guides when divers do that. It's a horrible feeling when you lose someone or THINK you have lost someone.

Did you not see the smiley? Anyway, you'd have your bag up after the first 70 mins so they would know where to look.....:) What are these 'give guides' anyway? never seen one on the boats I use - are they some foreign thing?:)

Mike Ward
08-01-2013, 01:10 PM
That's only an hour of searching for your body. It's not funny for dive guides when divers do that. It's a horrible feeling when you lose someone or THINK you have lost someone.

Whenever we briefed Rosalie Moller in the Red Sea we asked people for their surface to surface times so we knew when to start worrying.

We started doing that after two guys decided they were OK with some mandatory deco and were still in the water twenty minutes after everyone else was back aboard, and they'd been first in. Doing the deco and staying longer wasn't an issue, but by not telling us they caused huge stress to a friend of mine who had been involved in an earlier incident where a diver was lost inside the wreck. Personally, I was feeling sick, scared and strapped on my kit with fingers that felt like bunches of badly co-ordinated floppy sausages.

HeBails
08-01-2013, 01:54 PM
I'll be doing the Rosie in May and fully expect to do another 3 hour dive on her with the last half of it on my own and, to be fair, I usually do stick to my run-times. It's just that I always try and get the maximum concession from the skipper :D

My point re: this bit of kit was: What's the point of having a bottom time extender when you're not allowed to do more than an hour on the boats the target market will use?

The Duck
08-01-2013, 03:08 PM
Like Edward I've not noticed many dive guides on UK dive boats ;)

If the unit was coming in at £1k to £1.5k then it might have made a go of it but at £4k I doubt it will find much take-up (in the UK at least).

jturner
08-01-2013, 03:24 PM
My point re: this bit of kit was: What's the point of having a bottom time extender when you're not allowed to do more than an hour on the boats the target market will use?

Well, if it is anything like the boat I'm about to go out on, they have a couple of Mk6's and can support them if you bring your own and they extend the bottom time for Mk6 users... I would expect that the similar arrangements would apply for the Hollis star wars stormtrooper backpack.

Mike Ward
08-01-2013, 04:46 PM
I'll be doing the Rosie in May and fully expect to do another 3 hour dive on her with the last half of it on my own and, to be fair, I usually do stick to my run-times. It's just that I always try and get the maximum concession from the skipper :D

My point re: this bit of kit was: What's the point of having a bottom time extender when you're not allowed to do more than an hour on the boats the target market will use?

Day boats, sure, and they're a big part of the target market, but liveaboards aren't as picky about max dive time, at least in my experience.

And three hours on Rosie - :D

HeBails
08-01-2013, 04:48 PM
The deco is a real pain if there is a current running and I'm definitely not forgetting my jon line this time.....


And three hours on Rosie - :D

Mike Ward
08-01-2013, 04:49 PM
Well, if it is anything like the boat I'm about to go out on, they have a couple of Mk6's and can support them if you bring your own and they extend the bottom time for Mk6 users... I would expect that the similar arrangements would apply for the Hollis star wars stormtrooper backpack.

'Hey, babe, I'm a Master Scuba Diver and I use a Hollis Stormtrooper. Wanna see my scrubber?'

Mike Ward
08-01-2013, 04:55 PM
The deco is a real pain if there is a current running and I'm definitely not forgetting my jon line this time.....

Good call. One time there we had so much swell and wind that we broke three stern lines by mid-day and decided to can the third dive and head back around to Gubal and do the barge.

Now that's a site where a two hour duration wouldn't cause any grief.....

johnny boy
10-01-2013, 07:53 PM
so did kevin gurr develop this for hollis? if hollis approched him with a wedge of coin to develop this thing i suspect he sort of smiled inside and must have known it wouldnt catch on in the UK and just made the right noises in front of Kelvin. maybe?

Irnbru
07-03-2013, 08:29 AM
Scuba Pursuits now have the Hollis Explorer rebreather available on their site - and it IS on sale for just short of £4k (£3895)

Explorer Rebreather Hollis (http://www.scubapursuits.com/Explorer_Rebreather_Hollis-M20797)

Looks like Hollis are going to test the water with this price tag after all

dmainou
11-03-2013, 12:14 PM
Omg... that is 60% of the price of a quality fully fledged unit.

Good luck to them it's too expensive.

I'd be slashing that in half for it to be considered by the mass market.

D

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

Nitnab Nhoj
11-03-2013, 12:29 PM
I've found that if you want to get close to the marine life, a bit of dead fish in your pocket works wonders - and it costs a lot less than a rebreather!

jturner
11-03-2013, 12:54 PM
I've found that if you want to get close to the marine life, a bit of dead fish in your pocket works wonders - and it costs a lot less than a rebreather!

True but it also means you smell bad.



Because of the dead fish in your pocket that is, rather than any other reason... ;)

Nitnab Nhoj
11-03-2013, 01:02 PM
Great Hammerheads of Bimini, Bahamas 2013 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-h-lACZHc8&feature=share) No rebreathers, just a bit of dead fish in the pocket!

Woz
11-03-2013, 01:42 PM
I'll be doing the Rosie in May and fully expect to do another 3 hour dive on her with the last half of it on my own and, to be fair, I usually do stick to my run-times. It's just that I always try and get the maximum concession from the skipper :D

My point re: this bit of kit was: What's the point of having a bottom time extender when you're not allowed to do more than an hour on the boats the target market will use?
I racked up so much deco on the Rosie that while I was decoing I waved at a bloke who passed me heading down to the wreck then waved at him again on the way up... boy was I bored.

Nitnab Nhoj
11-03-2013, 02:36 PM
I went in on the Rosie with ten computers and two buddies. We lost one buddy on the ascent. When we surfaced he's done his surface interval and was ready to go in again although I thought we'd been in the wreck together. I was worried he might have damaged his brain, but he was a dive shop owner.

Woz
11-03-2013, 02:43 PM
My gut reaction about recreational RB is that the market is in its infancy at the minute but it will grow. 5 years is nothing- I think we're in for the long burn on this one and 20 years will be the time it will take for a rec RB to become more normal. 4 grand is too much. 1500 quid? You might be in with a chance. You need to up the volume and drive down costs.

Shaw-Tek
11-03-2013, 05:25 PM
Kevin launched the explorer a few years back at Dema. He made it totally clear the he wanted to sell the idea under licence to another manufacturer.
If £2k is the right sort of money then the kiss gem is right on the money. Take all the electronics out of an explorer and you have the gem.

Nitnab Nhoj
11-03-2013, 05:48 PM
Kevin launched the explorer a few years back at Dema. He made it totally clear the he wanted to sell the idea under licence to another manufacturer.
If £2k is the right sort of money then the kiss gem is right on the money. Take all the electronics out of an explorer and you have the gem.
DEMA 2011 Big ideas & one-show wonders - Divernet (http://www.divernet.com/Diving_Gear/1199806/big_ideas_oneshow_wonders.html)
DEMA 2010 The kit in America - Divernet (http://www.divernet.com/Diving_Gear/751636/the_kit_in_america.html)

jamesp
07-04-2013, 10:38 AM
My gut reaction about recreational RB is that the market is in its infancy at the minute but it will grow. 5 years is nothing- I think we're in for the long burn on this one and 20 years will be the time it will take for a rec RB to become more normal. 4 grand is too much. 1500 quid? You might be in with a chance. You need to up the volume and drive down costs.

Having read the thread, I suspect that the rebreather is incidental to the marketing.

Woz you are thinking like I would with an engineers head on. Swap to a marketing view.

Stuff the mass market, aim for the big money. In which case they should probably double the price and park it in the lobby of top end five star hotels for advertising.

The "stick an i and a half eaten piece of fruit on it" is probably closer to the marketing model.
Just remember the fruit is actually a poisoned apple!

Personally I would think its more Kirby cleaner and Dyson.

This product is not intended for divers, its a way of extracting money from people who dont know differently.

whelk
07-04-2013, 12:09 PM
If I had any money at all, I'd consider the explorer. I really want a rebreather, but frankly, I don't do the diving to justify a full CCR. I'd like to, but for the foreseeable future I won't have the time to be keeping my skills in for big dives. My girlfriend--who dives, but hates the cold, and hates the hassle of gear--would never touch a CCR. But if she saw that the Explorer were proved to be reliable, and really is as simple as it looks, then the only barrier would be the price. Having said that, hobbies are expensive--think about mountain biking, motorcycles, sailing, skiing, all of that. Four grand is a lot, but in comparison, it's not that bad.

Anyway, all these points have been brought up before, so I'll just say that for someone like me (relatively new diver, interested in gear, looking to keep warm and maximize dive time, limited in time I can go diving) a eSCR would really offer a lot of benefits I'd be interested in. First, someone give me a lucrative job with plenty of holiday. :)

Nitnab Nhoj
07-04-2013, 01:35 PM
Every week-end, endless numbers of men-in-Lycra pass my house on bikes that cost thousands of pounds each (because I'm on the Olympic road race route). However, the analogy comparing these expensive bikes to an expensive rebreather is flawed in that these people can get on their bikes and use them - as opposed to driving to the coast and getting blown out!

gobfish1
07-04-2013, 02:06 PM
If I had any money at all, I'd consider the explorer. I really want a rebreather, but frankly, I don't do the diving to justify a full CCR. I'd like to, but for the foreseeable future I won't have the time to be keeping my skills in for big dives. My girlfriend--who dives, but hates the cold, and hates the hassle of gear--would never touch a CCR. But if she saw that the Explorer were proved to be reliable, and really is as simple as it looks, then the only barrier would be the price. Having said that, hobbies are expensive--think about mountain biking, motorcycles, sailing, skiing, all of that. Four grand is a lot, but in comparison, it's not that bad.

Anyway, all these points have been brought up before, so I'll just say that for someone like me (relatively new diver, interested in gear, looking to keep warm and maximize dive time, limited in time I can go diving) a eSCR would really offer a lot of benefits I'd be interested in. First, someone give me a lucrative job with plenty of holiday. :)


keep warm and maximize dive time,:x: 4k lol about as much use as a 5k road bike with the 25s rider, on

whelk
07-04-2013, 06:17 PM
keep warm and maximize dive time,:x: 4k lol about as much use as a 5k road bike with the 25s rider, on

Well, yeah, I could buy an OC setup and insulate my drysuit with pound notes. But ignoring the price--there's nothing wrong with the concept. Taking the price on board, it's a bit steep--then again, loads of people spend lots more for less tangible benefits.

Mikael
17-04-2013, 12:45 AM
.....
give me a lucrative job with plenty of holiday. :)

If you crack this conundrum, make sure to share the secret with the rest of us :call:

Hot Totty
17-04-2013, 10:03 AM
If you crack this conundrum, make sure to share the secret with the rest of us :call:

Bantin seems to have found this holy grail ;)

whelk
17-04-2013, 02:52 PM
Bantin seems to have found this holy grail ;)

Now, now, I'm sure it's harder than it looks--flying around the world, diving amazing places, getting all the latest gear, and all for free. Maybe for his holidays he signs up for some data entry temp jobs.

ootini
18-04-2013, 09:20 AM
Now, now, I'm sure it's harder than it looks--flying around the world, diving amazing places, getting all the latest gear, and all for free. Maybe for his holidays he signs up for some data entry temp jobs.

7/10

Hot Totty
18-04-2013, 02:43 PM
7/10

Oh I think I'd give 8/10 :p

whelk
18-04-2013, 02:44 PM
Oh I think I'd give 8/10 :p

You're halfway there! (no Bon Jovi joke intended)

ootini
18-04-2013, 03:30 PM
You're halfway there! (no Bon Jovi joke intended)

16/20?

Hot Totty
18-04-2013, 04:19 PM
16/20?

This brings in the possibility of 1/2 marks, not known jb do this otherwise we might as well go for 80/100 or 80% :p

ootini
18-04-2013, 04:26 PM
This brings in the possibility of 1/2 marks, not known jb do this otherwise we might as well go for 80/100 or 80% :p

B+

Nitnab Nhoj
28-04-2013, 05:31 AM
Now, now, I'm sure it's harder than it looks--flying around the world, diving amazing places, getting all the latest gear, and all for free. Maybe for his holidays he signs up for some data entry temp jobs.


All for free? ALL FOR FREE? It's worse that that. I get paid handsomely for doing it! (Just doing my VAT return and Self-Assessment for 2012-13)

Paul Allen's got a nice dive boat. (Octopus) Why don't you have a go at him? He's made it all from selling you mugs Microsoft products! I made Steve Jobs rich but he's dead so I forgive him.)

Hellenic Diver
28-04-2013, 07:27 AM
Buy microsoft products? I'm confused at the concept

Garf
18-05-2013, 04:54 AM
Buy microsoft products? I'm confused at the concept

Absolutely I agree. If you are a small business they throw their software at you. Don't think we've paid for any server or desktop os or office version for ten years

Hellenic Diver
18-05-2013, 04:54 PM
I paid for Windows ME, everything else is compensation. ..

witchieblackcat
18-05-2013, 06:15 PM
I paid for Windows ME, everything else is compensation. ..

I quite like that.

I believe in an ethical piracy policy. Software I need I pay for whereas software that's nice to have occasionally but priced exorbitantly I've no problem borrowing.