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View Full Version : Dive insurance, where do we stand ??



Davedagc
03-06-2013, 03:13 PM
Would love to hear about people's experience with this regard to dive insurance for tech diving.
Specifically depth restrictions etc...

For example I am insured with DAN which states I am ensured to the depth of my level of training. On my Trimix Ccr ticket it states 100m, so I am pretty sure that is going to be the limit of insurance.
However I am making many dives beyond this depth, which means my insurance probably will not cover me in the event of an accident.

So how are people getting round this and are there other agency's which give a deeper depth certification ??



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Nitnab Nhoj
03-06-2013, 03:18 PM
So how are people getting round this and are there other agency's which give a deeper depth certification ??



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Lying.

Davedagc
03-06-2013, 03:38 PM
Lying.

Hhmm but what if after an accident insurance company wants to see computer profile etc...... ???


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GLOC
03-06-2013, 03:55 PM
You're fooked...

As someone said on another thread, there are some things which don't come out...

Seeing as none of the training agencies cover CCR below 100m, it might be worth speaking to your insurance company. I thought DAN would only provide cover at those sort of depths on submission of dive plans...

Regards

Davedagc
03-06-2013, 04:11 PM
I thought DAN would only provide cover at those sort of depths on submission of dive plans...

Regards

I may have to check that out, as I thought it just said to the level of your training ???

Is there no agency out there qualifying people to deeper depths ???


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Iain Smith
03-06-2013, 04:50 PM
For example I am insured with DAN which states I am ensured to the depth of my level of training. On my Trimix Ccr ticket it states 100m, so I am pretty sure that is going to be the limit of insurance. However I am making many dives beyond this depth, which means my insurance probably will not cover me in the event of an accident.

So how are people getting round this and are there other agency's which give a deeper depth certification ??

DAN Europe Recreational Silver:

"Technical Diving means dives conducted with the use of variable gas mixtures (Nitrogen-Helium-Oxygen otherwise called Trimix or Helium – Oxygen otherwise called Heliox) up to depths not exceeding 130 metres and/or gas partial pressures of 1,4 ATA Oxygen or up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 3,95ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture, and provided that any other relevant local laws and regulations are respected. On written submission of a full dive profile and proposed safety and support measures insurers may consider providing specific per dive insurance for any dive exceeding 130 metres."

I can't find anything regarding insurance being limited to level of training in the policy document, but might have missed it.

Iain

Davedagc
03-06-2013, 06:53 PM
DAN Europe Recreational Silver:

"Technical Diving means dives conducted with the use of variable gas mixtures (Nitrogen-Helium-Oxygen otherwise called Trimix or Helium – Oxygen otherwise called Heliox) up to depths not exceeding 130 metres and/or gas partial pressures of 1,4 ATA Oxygen or up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 3,95ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture, and provided that any other relevant local laws and regulations are respected. On written submission of a full dive profile and proposed safety and support measures insurers may consider providing specific per dive insurance for any dive exceeding 130 metres."

I can't find anything regarding insurance being limited to level of training in the policy document, but might have missed it.

Iain

Thanks for the Iain......



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Iain3
04-06-2013, 03:53 AM
DAN Europe Recreational Silver:

"Technical Diving means dives conducted with the use of variable gas mixtures (Nitrogen-Helium-Oxygen otherwise called Trimix or Helium – Oxygen otherwise called Heliox) up to depths not exceeding 130 metres and/or gas partial pressures of 1,4 ATA Oxygen or up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 3,95ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture, and provided that any other relevant local laws and regulations are respected. On written submission of a full dive profile and proposed safety and support measures insurers may consider providing specific per dive insurance for any dive exceeding 130 metres."

I can't find anything regarding insurance being limited to level of training in the policy document, but might have missed it.

Iain

I've spoken with DAN Europe a few times about this, you need to inform them with a dive-plan, etc, and get permission to do deeper than 130m. DAN in other areas of the world is different though, DAN Australia is 100m, so if you are not with DAN Europe then check.

Major Clanger
04-06-2013, 07:41 AM
Would love to hear about people's experience with this regard to dive insurance for tech diving.
Specifically depth restrictions etc...

For example I am insured with DAN which states I am ensured to the depth of my level of training. On my Trimix Ccr ticket it states 100m, so I am pretty sure that is going to be the limit of insurance.
However I am making many dives beyond this depth, which means my insurance probably will not cover me in the event of an accident.

So how are people getting round this and are there other agency's which give a deeper depth certification ??



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Posted this elsewhere then saw this thread:

One of my policies was for decreasing life insurance with Aviva, who I'd called direct. When I told them the type of diving I did, they put it to their underwriters who said they'd cover me but would exclude all my diving, so put that on hold. Yesterday, I went through an intermediary, who I've used before, and told them my requirement to include my type of diving (ccr/trimix/sometimes solo/75m max depth etc) and set them a challenge...They came back and said they'd found a company that would insure me and that the underwriters had approved my diving for policy inclusion.

That company was also Aviva...

Don't get around it, be honest with them and shop around; not all will provide cover. All risks can be insured, you just end up paying more with the ones that offer that level. Either that or tell your buddy to lie about the depths you went to and lose your computer in the event of...

I think that the Westfield policy covers diving within certification or experience levels, whatever they may be, but I haven't seen the detail of that wording.

Nitnab Nhoj
04-06-2013, 08:19 AM
I'd be very surprised if you could get cover for anything beyond conventional diving depths. Sadly, Carl Spencer could not, evidently, and his wife and family suffered dramatic life-changing consequences after his loss. Don't think Insurance companies are beneficent uncles waiting to pay up.

Major Clanger
05-06-2013, 10:45 AM
What's conventional?

Change of plan, Aviva declined it after all. Friends Life however have now said they'd covered all my diving, including ccr trimix solo diving down to my max depth cert (75m). I didn't askt hem about deeper. Re Carl Spence, I thought there was more to the reason the insurance company didn't pay out than the depth but wouldn't want to say what I think without being certain. Side issue really, each should check re their own circumstances.

Simon TW
06-06-2013, 10:33 AM
Better to seek clarification before you go diving than to argue the case when you're thousands of miles away and breathing your last drop of O2 trying to get treatment.

Remember that DAN has limit of 3.95 ATA of Nitrogen. The dives beyond 40 meters on air you're not insured for. Worries me that PADI are selling Tec 45 and tek 50. Also the CCR divers using mix, be aware of 3.95 limit.

Remember, most of the world has a "no money, no treatment" policy, so if you want to exceed the limits keep your credit card to hand.

Iain Smith
06-06-2013, 10:51 AM
Better to seek clarification before you go diving than to argue the case when you're thousands of miles away and breathing your last drop of O2 trying to get treatment.

Remember that DAN has limit of 3.95 ATA of Nitrogen. The dives beyond 40 meters on air you're not insured for. Worries me that PADI are selling Tec 45 and tek 50. Also the CCR divers using mix, be aware of 3.95 limit.


I think it depends on the policy. The 40m air limit applies to "Sport Bronze" only.

Under "Sport Silver", "recreational" diving includes "compressed air diving in any form", "“nitrox” diving with fixed percentages with an open circuit or a “rebreather”" and "normoxic trimix mixtures at depths less than 50m". For such "recreational" dives, you're allowed a pN2 of up to 5.6ATA.

See here (http://www.daneurope.org/web/guest/depth-limits)

"Technical" dives include "variable gas mixtures" which, as you say, would appear to include all CCRs.

Iain

Alan C
10-06-2013, 08:30 PM
I think it depends on the policy. The 40m air limit applies to "Sport Bronze" only.

Under "Sport Silver", "recreational" diving includes "compressed air diving in any form", "“nitrox” diving with fixed percentages with an open circuit or a “rebreather”" and "normoxic trimix mixtures at depths less than 50m". For such "recreational" dives, you're allowed a pN2 of up to 5.6ATA.

See here (http://www.daneurope.org/web/guest/depth-limits)

"Technical" dives include "variable gas mixtures" which, as you say, would appear to include all CCRs.

Iain

Ok, now I'm confused, from DAN:

"DAN Europe recommends gas partial pressures up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 5,6ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture. "

So air is ok to about 60m under this definition if my maths is right...

"Technical Diving

Technical Diving means dives conducted with the use of variable gas mixtures (Nitrogen-Helium-Oxygen otherwise called Trimix or Helium – Oxygen otherwise called Heliox) up to depths not exceeding 130 metres and/or gas partial pressures of 1,4 ATA Oxygen or up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 3,95ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture, and provided that any other relevant local laws and regulations are respected. "

So, for the deep gas at 130m the maximum oxygen content should be 10% with no more than 40% nitrogen, i.e. Simons favourite gas, 10/50 assuming the 5.6ATA N2. However, if you increase the O2 to 11% (pO2 1.6 @ 11.4%) you need to limit yourself to 28% nitrogen, or 11/61..

Is it just me or is this not particularly clear wording?

For practical purposes I intend to interpret this as: do not exceed pO2 of 1.6ATA, do not exceed pN2 of 3.95ATA (i.e. 40m equivalent air depth).

Chris Grosart
23-06-2013, 12:58 PM
Snowcard.
Snowcard insurance for scuba diving (http://www.snowcard.co.uk/activities-scuba.php#.Ucbv5PmTiSo)

Unlimited depth. Can't be arsed to read the small print about certifying agency depth limits (one of my cave diving certs has no depth limit so I'm Ok for deep cave stuff..)
BUT Snowcard can, via phone call, offer custom exped cover for deeper dives etc. They also offer custom exped cover for polar expeditions and things, so they are flexible and experienced in high level stuff.

PeterL
27-06-2013, 09:30 AM
I just had the people associated with Divemaster try and offer me a life policy for the princely sum of £3,150 p/a.....
Laugh if you wish...

Mark
03-07-2013, 06:26 AM
Seeing as none of the training agencies cover CCR below 100m
Regards

Incorrect, IANTD offer CCR training to 120m, its called expedition trimix CCR.

Divemaster will insure you in excess of 100m, although they require a written dive plan to be submitted to an underwriter for approval, and support teams etc are required. Divemaster will also credit you for experience. If you are doing this I suggest getting it in writing from them, bloody insurance companies.

notdeadyet
03-07-2013, 07:45 AM
Incorrect, IANTD offer CCR training to 120m, its called expedition trimix CCR.

Divemaster will insure you in excess of 100m, although they require a written dive plan to be submitted to an underwriter for approval, and support teams etc are required. Divemaster will also credit you for experience. If you are doing this I suggest getting it in writing from them, bloody insurance companies.

My IANTD Rebreather card from 1995 has no depth limit on it. Or any kind of limit (helium, deco, %O2, etc). Worst course I've ever done but a handy card to have. My mix course, done round the same time, had no limit either.

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Mark
03-07-2013, 10:48 AM
My IANTD Rebreather card from 1995 has no depth limit on it. Or any kind of limit (helium, deco, %O2, etc). Worst course I've ever done but a handy card to have. My mix course, done round the same time, had no limit either.

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Jammy git, my IANTD card says 100m. Divemaster are happy to cover me for a 110m dive later this year.


Just checked my policy wording:


i) We accept that being a certified recreational diver does not necessarily make you qualified for all challenging dives. The SCUBA Diving
Certifying Associations (Authoritative Diving Bodies) recommend that you increase your diving depths and experience by gradual progression and
log them as proof of your experience.
ii) Conversely we accept that there will be many recreational SCUBA divers who are qualified to dive certain challenging dives by way of logged
experience but may not be certified to engage in these challenging dives.
iii) In all claims situations attaching to this policy we will consider both your diver certifications and your logged dive experience before coming to a
decision.


Unsupported dives past 80m, or supported dives past 130m require approval by an underwriter following a written submission of the dive plan.