PDA

View Full Version : Do you believe in ....



Paulo
29-03-2013, 08:20 AM
Thought this might be interesting after watching a programme last night.

Do you believe in god? Ghosts? UFOs?

Be nice!

gordyp
29-03-2013, 08:22 AM
No.

IanB
29-03-2013, 08:25 AM
You could do with a none of the above option

AndrewRawlingson
29-03-2013, 08:26 AM
Do you believe in god? Ghosts? UFOs?

no, no and yes - whether some UFOs are alien life forms is the really interesting question and my answer is that i don't know.

AndrewRawlingson
29-03-2013, 08:28 AM
ps. that has to be the most random poll i've ever seen.

Paulo
29-03-2013, 08:31 AM
You could do with a none of the above option

Meant to put one in but forgot. Now I cant amend. Maybe a mod could?

holly
29-03-2013, 08:55 AM
Space in all its infinity must harbour some sort of bacteria at the very least, which is 'alien' IMO

Also IMO anything that flies over my head, that I dont know what it is, is technically a Unidentified Flying Object :think:

Hot Totty
29-03-2013, 09:04 AM
Waiting for proof - so sat on the fence :D

Scuba steve
29-03-2013, 09:06 AM
I believe in all of the above .

God is my spiritual focus even thought I am not a practising church goer . I still have my believes . I also have the oooh shite moments where I look for Devine intervention .

Ghosts in my opinion most certainly exisist . The last house I owned was in my opinion frequently returned to by the spirit of the old lady who peacfully died in the house . After gutting the place we used to get old lady smell in the main bedroom on her side of the bed . And the bathroom door would be opened from time to time .

Ufos are exactly that unwise tidied flying stuff . In America they test top secret flying machines regularly . But these don't nessicerily mean that they are linked to aliens . I believe the universe is so large that some sort of life forms live out there . Look at ours how many life forms are there and we havnt mastered spaces travel maybe another planet has life on it like our animals and they also havnt mastered space travel

Chriselliott
29-03-2013, 09:13 AM
Ahem...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/29/esa3yvyt.jpg

That is all. Religious debates just turn into arguments that descend into personal verbal abuse. Which isn't very religious. Believe in what you want. Just don't try and convince others that your god(s) is(are) better than their god(s).

Other gods are available...

As for UFOs. Yea i believe theres life out there. But somewhere. And its not close and probably hasn't visited us

Graham Smith
29-03-2013, 09:31 AM
I recall that the precise distance the earth sits from the sun and the temperature range we experience here on earth has often been quoted as the reason that no life forms could live elsewhere in the universe.

Balls.

We are continuously finding life forms in extreme places where none were thought possible. In waters so acidic that they are toxic to humans, yet microbes and bacteria life there happily and gorge themselves on the acids.

Volcanic hot water vents beneath the sea so hot as to be able to cook flesh, yet there is life. The list of examples is long and I am of the opinion that to think we are alone in the universe is both naive and arrogant.

I was listening to the radio yesterday about the discovery of the human genome. 1966 was the year, and how far have we come in terms of technology since? What is yet to come out of CERN that may have huge implications for us as a race? Again, to think we are more advanced than any other life form in the universe actually demonstrates our stupidity.

As to religion? Are you serious? Those whose deity's allow such untold pain and suffering to be inflicted on each other seem certainly not to have our best interests at heart.....

G

Mikael
29-03-2013, 09:37 AM
http://livebyquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/calvinHobbes2.jpg

IanB
29-03-2013, 09:45 AM
I read the ufo alien line as the sort portrayed by the press, forever kidnapping oddballs on country roads. Do I think there's other life somewhere in a possibly unbounded universe, almost certainly. Does it come visiting in flying saucers, highly unlikely.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

Scuba steve
29-03-2013, 10:05 AM
As to religion? Are you serious? Those whose deity's allow such untold pain and suffering to be inflicted on each other seem certainly not to have our best interests at heart.....

G

Sometimes mistakenly the people of the organisation are mistaken for the organiseation , the poeple of the church are not god . I believe in god but i dont go to church and 1 of the reasons for this is the fact that some / the minority of priests did what they did and their bishops/bosses covered it . I have sombody close in my family who was 1 of the covered stories .

But This again in my opinion is people of the church and not god itself

Mikael
29-03-2013, 10:11 AM
Sometimes mistakenly the people of the organisation are mistaken for the organiseation , the poeple of the church are not god . I believe in god but i dont go to church....

Genuine question: How did you arrive at this belief and what role do you think the organisation, say a church, had in forming your understanding of what this god was/is/does, if any?

notdeadyet
29-03-2013, 10:14 AM
Christopher Hitchens said, after a hundred thousand years of managing OK on our own, is it logical that whoever is upstairs would start taking an interest in the last two thousand years? Kind of hard to find a flaw in that.

That kind of applies to my view on UFO's as well. Yes, there are unidentified flying objects, that's obvious. Are they aliens? So they travel who knows how many billion miles to get here with technology we can't even imagine but they're a bit shy and socially inept albeit partial to cow lips and the only people they announce themselves to are the mentally unhinged, alcoholics and New Agers? Yeah, right... If you'd come all that way would you talk to David Icke?

Ghosts... spirits of the dead, I think not. Environmental conditions that make the brain play tricks on itself in certain places... why not?

notdeadyet
29-03-2013, 10:19 AM
As to religion? Are you serious? Those whose deity's allow such untold pain and suffering to be inflicted on each other seem certainly not to have our best interests at heart.....

Might just be me but an organisation that thinks showing children scenes of hardcore S&M and then telling them they were born sinners is going to produce well balanced individuals isn't really high on my Christmas card list.

Scuba steve
29-03-2013, 10:52 AM
Genuine question: How did you arrive at this belief and what role do you think the organisation, say a church, had in forming your understanding of what this god was/is/does, if any?

Most people believe that when we die there is somthing else and that is not just the end . Most religions are built on this presipious , hope . The religion that most are surrounded , saturated andimmersed by when young is generally the belief they grow to accept .

I come from a RC background but now have more of a christian view on life . I dont go to church , i have a little chat with the big man every now and again but the main belief is that i do more good onto this world than bad that way my conscience is clear when i do meet my maker :grin::grin:

Very deep

Ken Hawk
29-03-2013, 11:01 AM
And so it begins again.
Have a good, good friday everyone.

Mikael
29-03-2013, 11:05 AM
And so it begins again.
Have a good, good friday everyone.

In my experience all Fridays begin and end. Nothing unusual about that.

Paulo
29-03-2013, 11:06 AM
I really do not want this being dragged down like the pope threads recently. I will report any posts that look like they are going out of hand.

Okay only a few people have voted but 0-0-4 are the current standings ... i think that is very interesting

BluDL
29-03-2013, 11:11 AM
Yes i. Believe in gods: with my buoyancy, i am one.

Yes i believe in ghosts. I regularly ask them how to get out of a wreck when narced

Yes i believe in ufo's. i have taught many underwater flailing objects

Logun
29-03-2013, 11:18 AM
What is yet to come out of CERN that may have huge implications for us as a race?

Urrrm, the World Wide Web.

Ken Hawk
29-03-2013, 11:21 AM
In my experience all Fridays begin and end. Nothing unusual about that.

Are but you maybe getting time and a half for this 1, or is that for mon and tue ;)

Hickdive
29-03-2013, 11:21 AM
No

No

Er - The probability is that "alien" life does exist elsewhere in the universe. Whether that life is sentient, technologically developed, has solved the problem of faster-than-light travel and has actually bumped into the earth frequently enough, if at all, in the vastness of the universe to create ufo phenomena here is an entirely different question.

purple vonny
29-03-2013, 11:32 AM
I used to and then I started using intelligent thinking and now I don't.

One all knowing all seeing God? No.

Ghosts? No - someone dies every second in the world, we'd be bumping into them all the time everywhere.

UFOs? I used to believe everything I read. Not any more. Some flying objects are unidentified, yes, but aliens visiting us? There is still no proof.

witches, fairies, angels? No.

Ron MacRae
29-03-2013, 11:35 AM
I really do not want this being dragged down like the pope threads recently. I will report any posts that look like they are going out of hand.

Okay only a few people have voted but 0-0-4 are the current standings ... i think that is very interesting

I think the current standings are not surprising given the lack of civility and the bigotted responses in previous threads. Based on my past experience here I'm not going to give my views on anything related to religion.:x:

Any discussions have to start of from a position of if not mutual respect then at least common curtesy. You won't get that here.

Let's stick to diving.

Ron.

Scuba steve
29-03-2013, 11:49 AM
I really do not want this being dragged down like the pope threads recently. I will report any posts that look like they are going out of hand.



Make sure you abide by it too :giggle::x:

londonsean69
29-03-2013, 11:57 AM
God - no
Ghosts - no
Other life - see below

Paraphrasing something I heard "To say we must be alone is like looking at a glass of seawater and saying the oceans must be empty"

Our planet is a tiny speck on a stage that is so vast it is nigh on impossible to comprehend. In all probability, there must be life elsewhere in the universe, is it intelligent? I guess that depends on how you define intelligence. To an outsider looking in, the human race must look pretty stupid, consistently destroying our home.

Mikael
29-03-2013, 11:59 AM
I think the current standings are not surprising given the lack of civility and the bigotted responses in previous threads. Based on my past experience here I'm not going to give my views on anything related to religion.:x:

Any discussions have to start of from a position of if not mutual respect then at least common curtesy. You won't get that here.

Let's stick to diving.

Ron.

Just because someone disagree with what you might have to say on a certain subject does not automatically make them a bigot. I am all for common courtesy but lets have room in public discourse for opposing positions. I understand that in the T&C for the forum it discourages discussion on religion due to the tendency for this to produce heated debate. Sadly I think this reflects the wider attitude in society where there appears to be a moratorium on criticising religion. As I recall the Pope thread which started out with some general poking fun at the Catholic church turned into a much broader discussion of secularism/empiricism vs theism, got shut down shortly after the latter side pulled out the 'I am offended' card.

As for Paulo's poll, I think the lack of responses is due to the restrictive set of answers/ambiguous question. There is no 'None of the above', or 'Other' options. What about those who believe in unidentified objects but not sci-fi style flying saucers or those who believe both in god and ghosts or those who believe there is life on other planets but not aliens visiting us here on earth......

Scuba steve
29-03-2013, 12:38 PM
It's all Paulo's fault

Ban him mods :-)

Ron MacRae
29-03-2013, 12:52 PM
Just because someone disagree with what you might have to say on a certain subject does not automatically make them a bigot. I am all for common courtesy but lets have room in public discourse for opposing positions. I understand that in the T&C for the forum it discourages discussion on religion due to the tendency for this to produce heated debate. Sadly I think this reflects the wider attitude in society where there appears to be a moratorium on criticising religion. As I recall the Pope thread which started out with some general poking fun at the Catholic church turned into a much broader discussion of secularism/empiricism vs theism, got shut down shortly after the latter side pulled out the 'I am offended' card.


I've been told that christians are mentally defective. I've been told that christians are part of a paedophile ring and that the reason for the existance of the Roman Catholic church is to be the Pope's personal paedophile ring. I could go on. I don't recognise that as "discussion" and I'd not be surprised if some people took offence.

If you don't think being labeled simple or a paedophile is likely to cause offence then yes you must be thicker skinned than me and you probably won't even mind me saying "you're full of it", which I'd normally not say, because I try to be polite.

I don't think TDF is capable of rational discussion on non-diving topics.

Happy Easter :grin:

Ron.

wibble32
29-03-2013, 12:59 PM
[QUOTE=Ron MacRae;53036]Happy Easter :grin:
QUOTE]

Irony, I recognise that.

Rgds

Mikael
29-03-2013, 01:33 PM
I've been told that christians are mentally defective. I've been told that christians are part of a paedophile ring and that the reason for the existance of the Roman Catholic church is to be the Pope's personal paedophile ring. I could go on. I don't recognise that as "discussion" and I'd not be surprised if some people took offence.

If you don't think being labeled simple or a paedophile is likely to cause offence then yes you must be thicker skinned than me and you probably won't even mind me saying "you're full of it", which I'd normally not say, because I try to be polite.

I don't think TDF is capable of rational discussion on non-diving topics.

Happy Easter :grin:

Ron.


The offence to which I was referring is where theist claim that having the validity of their beliefs or their organised religion questioned is some how deeply and personally insulting. There seems to be some kind of implication that it is a personal attack on them.

As I recall there has been no evidence to incriminate the last Pope or current one of paedophilia so who ever said that RC was Ratzinger's personal paedophile ring was taking liberties with the truth none the less there remains unresolved issues with his role as head of the Doctrine of the Faith when he is alleged to have covered up sex crimes. That is not however the same thing as accusing you of paedophilia so why you conflate these two I don't know?

If I had claimed that incorrectly accusing some one of being simple/a paedophile was not offensive then yes you'd be fully justified in saying I was full of crap. Thankfully I have not said any such thing.

Not strictly sure we're any good at rational discussions on diving either :rofl:

Enjoy your Easter

SonicStomp
29-03-2013, 01:37 PM
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Religion and ghosts squared away.

As for aliens - it is improbable that we are alone in the universe.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

sheesh
29-03-2013, 01:39 PM
If I understand correctly this thread is about voting for what your own belief is, not for saying what anyone else believes is a load of donkey-toss.

If people stick to what they believe (and possibly why) rather than trying to "explain" why anyone who believes differently is either going to burn in hell or is mentally defective then we can carry on.
Until we reach that stage I think we are better keeping out of religious debate because it has been shown time and time again we are incapable of doing it respectfully.
.02p

Mikael
29-03-2013, 01:44 PM
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Religion and ghosts squared away.

As for aliens - it is improbable that we are alone in the universe.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

To be fair Paulo said nothing about proof, only do you believe in any of these.
Belief does not require proof, its a statement of opinion.

If you claim your belief as true and want it to dictate how others run their lives then yes evidence should be required but that's another thread altogether.

Ian_6301
29-03-2013, 01:54 PM
Meh, poke your poll and the attendant angst up your hoop.

I'm doing my thing, you do yours. As long as you don't tread on my toes, fill your boots, believe whatever gets you through the night.

If you're right, you shouldn't need to keep arguing...

hilrosepaul
29-03-2013, 01:58 PM
I'm on my phone so can't see the poll:mad:

As far as God is concerned, there is a world of difference for me between faith or belief and doctrine. The closest I come to a belief in God is belief in predestination.

As for UFOs, it would be extremely arrogant to think we are the only intelligent life in a supposedly boundless universe.

Somebody else (I think it was Vonny) has matched me on ghosts. As there are people dying all the time, there are likely to be a lot more than is reported.

My 2p
Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

EDIT: This poll really needs a none of the above option

SonicStomp
29-03-2013, 02:11 PM
To be fair Paulo said nothing about proof, only do you believe in any of these.
Belief does not require proof, its a statement of opinion.

If you claim your belief as true and want it to dictate how others run their lives then yes evidence should be required but that's another thread altogether.

The two are inseparable in my view. Either you adopt a reasoned and skeptical approach to the universe, in which case evidence is key or you don't. In which case feel free to believe in god, fairies or any other kind of supernatural activity.

In the event of the latter then i would absolutely defend your *right* to believe, just prepare to do intellectual battle when you bring beliefs in magic into policy making, education or other aspects of public life.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

SonicStomp
29-03-2013, 02:17 PM
It's all Paulo's fault

Ban him mods :-)

"If my answers scare you then cease asking frightening questions".

Blame the OP ;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Hickdive
29-03-2013, 02:50 PM
I've been told that christians are mentally defective. I've been told that christians are part of a paedophile ring and that the reason for the existance of the Roman Catholic church is to be the Pope's personal paedophile ring. I could go on. I don't recognise that as "discussion" ...

And I don't recognise the above as being part of the threads we have had. Careful examination of this thread and the others reveal a rather different story.*

Is the Catholic church guilty of covering up child abuse on a huge scale worldwide? Yes. This is a fact acknowledged by the RCC itself.

Has anyone on TDF alleged that the RCC is a de facto peadophile *ring? No, and there is a vast difference between the two.

Has anyone on TDF said all Catholics or other Christians are stupid? No, they have pointed out the fact that in this respect they are deluded. There is a difference; Isaac Newton was *not stupid but he was a devout christian and an alchemist. Clearly he was deluded in the latter two.

What has happened is that the moment anyone has questioned your beliefs you have taken offence and called them disrespectful and here you are again with exactly the same accusation.

For the avoidance of doubt; respect for your right to hold your beliefs is NOT the same as respecting your beliefs. You do not get a free pass to shout down anyone who points out the folly of your beliefs on the grounds of "disrespect" nor do you get to erect strawmen and not have them knocked down.*

Hot Totty
29-03-2013, 03:27 PM
I've just seen the Easter bunny :p

Mikael
29-03-2013, 04:12 PM
I've just seen the Easter bunny :p

Keeping it aquatic;

http://3-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.trendhunter.com/cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/xrussell-wrankle.jpeg.pagespeed.ic.DyliyEwbYZ.jpg

Hot Totty
29-03-2013, 04:14 PM
Keeping it aquatic;

http://3-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.trendhunter.com/cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/xrussell-wrankle.jpeg.pagespeed.ic.DyliyEwbYZ.jpg

Seen just off Hinckley point ;)

Ron MacRae
29-03-2013, 05:17 PM
And I don't recognise the above as being part of the threads we have had. Careful examination of this thread and the others reveal a rather different story.......

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't agree with you. I know what I read and it did include generalisations that Christians were simple minded and paedophiles and the specific claim that the Pope led a phaedophile ring. These were in the first thread but I can't remember the subject.

There was very little reasoned debate on the prior threads. I just went back and in the first page of "the pope's had enough" I found -
"I'll say a little prayer for him. A little birdie told me he wants to spend a coupla years in Vegas, incognito."
To which the reply was - "Isn't Cognito one of his altar boys? "

Both threads were littered with similar "cheap shots". I could dig out a few more but you probably get my drift.

You cannot redicule someone's beliefs and expect them not to be annoyed and offended. What got me annoyed was that after 2 threads on belief in God, where the believers got ridiculed and so, quite reasonably in my opinion, decided not to take part, in this thread someone saying we were adverse to reasoned discussion and were hiding. Reasoned discussion my arse.

Yes fine, go on ridiculing Christians and name calling but don't pretend this was anything like a reasoned discussion and don't pretend that people who don't take part are running away or in some way afraid. We just have better things to do.

Happy Easter.:grin:

Ron.

ScubaSue
29-03-2013, 05:47 PM
I've just seen the Easter bunny :p
Yep, Easter Bunny :y:
Santa :y:

:D

GLOC
29-03-2013, 06:14 PM
Guys,

Ron is right, the previous discussions did end up in comments being made which were out of order, hence the threads being closed.

The thread has the same potential...

Regards

Mikael
29-03-2013, 06:55 PM
.....

There was very little reasoned debate on the prior threads. I just went back and in the first page of "the pope's had enough" I found -
"I'll say a little prayer for him. A little birdie told me he wants to spend a coupla years in Vegas, incognito."
To which the reply was - "Isn't Cognito one of his altar boys? "

Both threads were littered with similar "cheap shots". I could dig out a few more but you probably get my drift.

So someone made jokes about the RCC and the Pope, this was well before the thread took on the broader subject. You may call them cheap shots but there is some substance behind this, as the church has actively hidden sex offenders. Something Ratzinger had a role in considering his CV. Then there was his stance on sexuality and family planning. I suspect that many people make jokes about the RCC because as the expression goes 'if I didn't laugh, I would have to cry'. Again, criticism of the organised religion does not have to be confused with personal insult.


.... in this thread someone saying we were adverse to reasoned discussion and were hiding. Reasoned discussion my arse.

Yes fine, go on ridiculing Christians and name calling but don't pretend this was anything like a reasoned discussion and don't pretend that people who don't take part are running away or in some way afraid. We just have better things to do.

....

Sorry, I have missed this bit. Can you point out where someone has said in this thread that the theist supporters "were adverse to reasoned discussion and were hiding"?

Baron015
29-03-2013, 07:00 PM
God - certainly not.

Ghosts - absolutely not.

UFO - qualified no.

I do think that the universe is so vast, with countless stars and planets, and other galaxies can be so far away, that is unthinkable that we are the only sentient species to evolve anywhere.

Equally some of those species will want to explore their solar system, galaxy and eventually other galaxies.

I just don't think there is any evidence they have got here yet. And we are a fair few thousand years away from getting to other galaxies ourselves. We can't even get back to the moon. So much for Moonbase Alpha a la Space 1999. More like Space 2299.

Carl Sagan was probably to me, what a bishop or pope is for those who choose religion.

In the meantime if any evidence is ever found for God or Ghosts, that looks to me like credible peer reviewed evidence, then I will chose to reexamine my position.

Tb.

Hot Totty
29-03-2013, 07:05 PM
God - certainly not.

Ghosts - absolutely not.

UFO - qualified no.

I do think that the universe is so vast, with countless stars and planets, and other galaxies can be so far away, that is unthinkable that we are the only sentient species to evolve anywhere.

Equally some of those species will want to explore their solar system, galaxy and eventually other galaxies.

I just don't think there is any evidence they have got here yet. And we are a fair few thousand years away from getting to other galaxies ourselves. We can't even get back to the moon. So much for Moonbase Alpha a la Space 1999. More like Space 2299.

Carl Sagan was probably to me, what a bishop or pope is for those who choose religion.

In the meantime if any evidence is ever found for God or Ghosts, that looks to me like credible peer reviewed evidence, then I will chose to reexamine my position.

Tb.
I'd call that sitting on the fence ;)

Sharpie
30-03-2013, 01:40 PM
Where's option 4: "Don't be silly!" ?

Paulo
30-03-2013, 02:02 PM
I'd call that sitting on the fence ;)

That is allowed.... so long as that fence is straight and on your own property :)

Pete Bullen
30-03-2013, 02:17 PM
God? Maybe, but if so he's probably got far more important things to consider than us little microbes. Or as I saw it put somewhere else. "God is alive and well and working on a less ambitious project" :D

Ghosts? Nah, don't think so.

UFO's? They quite possibly exist but if so they are waiting for us to develop a reasonable degree of sentience before contacting us. All the time we are bent on self destruction they probably want us to stay in quarantine within our little solar system.

Scuba steve
30-03-2013, 05:41 PM
I've been told that christians are mentally defective. I've been told that christians are part of a paedophile ring and that the reason for the existance of the Roman Catholic church is to be the Pope's personal paedophile ring. I could go on. I don't recognise that as "discussion" and I'd not be surprised if some people took offence.

If you don't think being labeled simple or a paedophile is likely to cause offence then yes you must be thicker skinned than me and you probably won't even mind me saying "you're full of it", which I'd normally not say, because I try to be polite.

I don't think TDF is capable of rational discussion on non-diving topics.

Happy Easter :grin:

Ron.

Iv heard that all Muslims are terrorists but that doesn't make it true . Just because you heard something doesn't make it true nor should you believe it to be true .

Mikael
31-03-2013, 01:49 AM
Ahh Scuba Steve, I was going to ask you some follow up metaphysical questions (genuinely interested) but the rest of the thread kind of distracted me for a while.
In the mean time I scanned back and saw your first post were you say you believe in ghosts, god and UFOs

- see Paulo, you messed this poll right up and left Steve with a conundrum as how to cast his vote :wait:

Back to Steve you need to reign in your predictive text, it produced this cracker;


...
Ufos are exactly that unwise tidied flying stuff
.....

Dogmeat
31-03-2013, 08:39 AM
I go with the philosopher Cherilyn Sarkisian, this is the only thing I believe in........ :p

Cher - Believe (Offical Music Video) HD-Quality - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0chD8U8fA)


Oh and the possibility of other forms of life somewhere else.

BTS
31-03-2013, 09:44 AM
IMO all those things on the list have been studied and investigated by so many over a massive time span that if there were any validity we would know it by now with the possible exception of alien life, UFOs however as per the collective imagination of flying saucers and little green or grey men........ codswallop.

Ghosts has to be the biggest bunch of arse possible, to suggest we have an ethereal energy that can maintain form over the centuries is beyond stupid, if everyone and everything that had ever died left behind a presence the place would be thick with them.... Once you die, IMO, all electrical activity ceases or at least dissipates, chemical activity continues through putrefaction until we are broken down into the most basic of components then continues as these components react with the other elements and molecules around them and we are reincarnated as anything at random, in my past life it is possible part of me was a table leg, another part a snail, another part of a first world war munition...

I could believe in god before ghosts...

Scuba steve
31-03-2013, 11:14 AM
In work i see death weekly if not daily . I seen how most have come to terms with their maker before they pass . On their death beds people have found god who have been agnostic all their lifes .

If nothing more if it gives me and others the peace to move on when the time comes and the families a copeing mechinisim then im fine with that

BTS
31-03-2013, 11:17 AM
In work i see death weekly if not daily . I seen how most have come to terms with their maker before they pass . On their death beds people have found god who have been agnostic all their lifes .

If nothing more if it gives me and others the peace to move on when the time comes and the families a copeing mechinisim then im fine with that

If people need fantasy to cope with reality then I don't have an issue with that, odd though how a lot of the religious types who indulge in that particular escape fantasy condemn drug users for their version of fantasy escape...

gpj
31-03-2013, 12:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOl4oeHZnBk

'nuff said ;)

Scuba steve
31-03-2013, 09:01 PM
If people need fantasy to cope with reality then I don't have an issue with that, odd though how a lot of the religious types who indulge in that particular escape fantasy condemn drug users for their version of fantasy escape...

Faith and fantasy are different things . More than spirtualist condon drug use . Would you condon one of your childern using drugs ?? For a non spirtuall person would you like a drug addicit to move in next to you ?

Drugs are a scurge of modern day life . Drugs bring crime , violance , murder and dispear to lifes and families

This is a song by my brothers band about these issues have a listen
The Rattling Kind - All Around The Town [OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO] - YouTube (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_PanCzrCRJc)

BTS
31-03-2013, 09:32 PM
Drugs are a scurge of modern day life . Drugs bring crime , violance , murder and dispear to lifes and families


sounds just like religion...

londonsean69
31-03-2013, 09:34 PM
Faith and fantasy are different things . More than spirtualist condon drug use . Would you condon one of your childern using drugs ?? For a non spirtuall person would you like a drug addicit to move in next to you ?

Drugs are a scurge of modern day life . Drugs bring crime , violance , murder and dispear to lifes and families

This is a song by my brothers band about these issues have a listen
The Rattling Kind - All Around The Town [OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO] - YouTube (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_PanCzrCRJc)

Or you could have some nutter who has an imaginary friend that controls many aspects of their life :)

Diving Dude
31-03-2013, 09:52 PM
This thread is beginning to reinforce what Ron said in an earlier post about theists being ridiculed.

londonsean69
31-03-2013, 10:14 PM
This thread is beginning to reinforce what Ron said in an earlier post about theists being ridiculed.

I was brought up a Roman Catholic, all of the family still are.

I don't really care what people choose to believe in, if that is some 'higher spiritual place' which requires a bit of chemical enhancement to get there, then so be it. (Amazon Shamen etc.)
If that is a book of stories, that may or may not have some element of truth, then so be it.

I did hope the smiley at the end of my post would have sufficed :(

Paulo
31-03-2013, 10:19 PM
I was brought up a Roman Catholic, all of the family still are.

I don't really care what people choose to believe in, if that is some 'higher spiritual place' which requires a bit of chemical enhancement to get there, then so be it. (Amazon Shamen etc.)
If that is a book of stories, that may or may not have some element of truth, then so be it.

I did hope the smiley at the end of my post would have sufficed :(

I pretty much agree with this entirely... all except the drugs bit but then each to their own.

Now about those aliens and ghosts ........

Finless
31-03-2013, 10:39 PM
Meant to put one in but forgot. Now I cant amend. Maybe a mod could?

I thought I'd resolved this years ago on YD? Mods are aliens in human skin suits.

Finless
31-03-2013, 10:44 PM
This thread is beginning to reinforce what Ron said in an earlier post about theists being ridiculed.

Yeah!

Whilst we're on the subject of being picked on: what have the Romans ever done for me?

Well, I'll tell you. I'm supposed to be 'sinister' and most of you lot are dexters! You get called dextrous if you're good with your hands! Me? I'm just sinister! :punch:

notdeadyet
31-03-2013, 10:52 PM
Or you could have some nutter who has an imaginary friend that controls many aspects of their life :)

Exactly. I've made no secret about having enjoyed a bit of charlie in the past or other -- ahem -- choices I've made. If some fooker sat with a bottle of Bombay Sapphire on a Wednesday night while Midsomer Murders is on wants to judge me for it then fine. What's in the big cup that gets passed around on a Sunday?

Someone wants to hear voices and talk to the sky, I don't have a problem with it. Someone wants to judge me and how I live/have lived... I'm not signed up to loving my neighbour or turning the other cheek.

If Jesus was around today, would he be hanging out with a bunch of Daily Mail readers, talking about how the latest BMW has cheapened itself and worrying about illegal immigrants and gay marriage whilst quaffing some Nottage Hill? I very much doubt it. Not many of the disciples came from the middle classes as I recall. Prostitutes and sailors, not golf club members. Sorry, guys, you don't have God on your side.


I was brought up a Roman Catholic

You don't say :D


I don't really care what people choose to believe in, if that is some 'higher spiritual place' which requires a bit of chemical enhancement to get there, then so be it. (Amazon Shamen etc.)
If that is a book of stories, that may or may not have some element of truth, then so be it.

And ironically if that was the attitude that most organised religions had then this thread would be dead in the water.

notdeadyet
31-03-2013, 10:55 PM
what have the Romans ever done for me?

Now if you really want a religious debate! I give you exhibit A, the great schism...

londonsean69
31-03-2013, 10:59 PM
SIX REASONS THAT JESUS WAS IRISH:
1. He never got married.

2. He never held a steady job.

3. He went out drinking with the lads the night before he
died.

4. His last request was a drink

5. He lived with his parents until he was 33.

6. He thought his mother was a virgin, and she, bless her,
thought he was the son of God.

:D

Finless
31-03-2013, 11:00 PM
Sorry, guys, you don't have God on your side.

Well, "duh". He'd on MY side (if he isn't too cool to 'have a side')!

notdeadyet
31-03-2013, 11:02 PM
SIX REASONS THAT JESUS WAS IRISH:
1. He never got married.

2. He never held a steady job.

3. He went out drinking with the lads the night before he
died.

4. His last request was a drink

5. He lived with his parents until he was 33.

6. He thought his mother was a virgin, and she, bless her,
thought he was the son of God.

:D

7. He was a builder that had to emigrate in order to make a living

notdeadyet
31-03-2013, 11:03 PM
[QUOTE=notdeadyet;53782]Sorry, guys, you don't have God on your side./QUOTE]

Well, "duh". He'd on MY side (if he isn't too cool to 'have a side')!

If he's on my side we're all in trouble :D

Diving Dude
31-03-2013, 11:04 PM
SIX REASONS THAT JESUS WAS IRISH:


I didn't think Brian was an Irish name.

Paulo
31-03-2013, 11:06 PM
SIX REASONS THAT JESUS WAS IRISH:
1. He never got married.

2. He never held a steady job.

3. He went out drinking with the lads the night before he
died.

4. His last request was a drink

5. He lived with his parents until he was 33.

6. He thought his mother was a virgin, and she, bless her,
thought he was the son of God.

:D

LOL I think that is very apt for very many Irish men, not this one though:

1. Granted, not married but "living in sin" for the last 8 years
2. Employed since 18
3. Probably go out with the lads once a year :o prefer a beer with a meal
4. ya okay
5. left home at 18
6. My mother had sex 3 times and had 3 children that is all and I will fight any man that say otherwise :punch: :D on the other hand my mother is under no illusions about me ... my brother on the other hand as far as my mother is concerned can walk on water

Finless
31-03-2013, 11:06 PM
I didn't think Brian was an Irish name.

It isn't. It's Roman, isn't it? :)

Finless
31-03-2013, 11:08 PM
... my brother on the other hand as far as my mother is concerned can walk on water

It has been VERY cold recently.

Paulo
31-03-2013, 11:09 PM
It has been VERY cold recently.

Well he is living in St Albans or Saint Awlbans as he pronounces it! Lovely and warm here :D

Finless
31-03-2013, 11:09 PM
Woohoo! I'm the only one that believes in ghosts!

I can put my hands on a pair of ghoulies right now!

Tada! :)

Finless
31-03-2013, 11:11 PM
A, the great schism...

Isn't that the name of a cattle trail out in the old "Wild West" in the US of A? Names after John Schism, wasn't it?

Diving Dude
31-03-2013, 11:15 PM
It isn't. It's Roman, isn't it? :)

No, that's Bwian.

notdeadyet
31-03-2013, 11:19 PM
Isn't that the name of a cattle trail out in the old "Wild West" in the US of A? Names after John Schism, wasn't it?

The Searchers is much better :D

Finless
31-03-2013, 11:33 PM
The Searchers is much better :D

I've got these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXYNHp19xok) because I've been sitting in half lotus on the chair and cut all the blood supply off to my ankle (and part of my arse apparently ...... unless it's having a stroke).

I'm off to bed and try my luck.

:)

Paulo
01-04-2013, 12:24 PM
What about bigfoot?

Do you think something that big could go undiscovered this long?

Finless
01-04-2013, 01:50 PM
fill your boots,

Not a good thing to wish on, mostly, TDF dry suit divers? I suppose, those with pee valves fitted might see an extra dimension to the statement?

:)

Finless
01-04-2013, 01:56 PM
What about bigfoot? How do you know what SWMBO calls me?


Do you think something that big could go undiscovered this long?It's impolite to boast?

Garf
01-04-2013, 02:13 PM
This thread is beginning to reinforce what Ron said in an earlier post about theists being ridiculed.

Why shouldn't theists be ridiculed. What they believe is by definition ridiculous. A man who lived in a cave and claims the universe was created in 20 minutes by a pink leopard, and that the Earth is actually a giant strawberry sitting in a universe made of black jelly would invite ridicule. Why should religion be protected from the same criticism just because it's had time to get a few people to stick to the same story?

Saying that all Christian people are warmongers, simple minded, or child abusers is ridiculous. However, people are entitled to THAT belief too. People have as much right to be offended at criticism of their belief that all christians are simple minded as do christians who are offended that their belief is being criticised.

Every man and woman and earth is entitled to their own personal beliefs. I do not, however, agree that those beliefs should be protected. You have to be religious, or believe that religion is in some way different to other outrageous beliefs in order to afford religion an unwarranted protection

If someone wants to believe that all religious people are simple minded warmongers, then good luck to them. If someone wants to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent super-being, then good luck to them. Both of those views are equally narrow minded and ridiculous in my opinion, but all 3 of us are entitled to our beliefs and our right to ridicule those positions we feel are ridiculous.

I'm member of about half a dozen forums, across several hobbies, including long range rifle shooting and mountain scrambling, as well as several dive forums. They all have increasing issues with religious discussions getting out of control. You can either view that as an ever increasing intolerance in society and s symptom of its degradation. Or you could view it as evolution. You are entitled to either.

purple vonny
01-04-2013, 02:46 PM
The fact that people argue about what they believe in to the point of fighting and killing is enough to put me off.

No one is ever going to win an argument about religion so what's the point in trying?

Just go and quietly pray to your own gods and be nice. That's really all there is.

Finless
01-04-2013, 02:58 PM
Why shouldn't theists be ridiculed. What they believe is by definition ridiculous. A man who lived in a cave and claims the universe was created in 20 minutes by a pink leopard, and that the Earth is actually a giant strawberry sitting in a universe made of black jelly would invite ridicule. Why should religion be protected from the same criticism just because it's had time to get a few people to stick to the same story?

Saying that all Christian people are warmongers, simple minded, or child abusers is ridiculous. However, people are entitled to THAT belief too. People have as much right to be offended at criticism of their belief that all christians are simple minded as do christians who are offended that their belief is being criticised.

Every man and woman and earth is entitled to their own personal beliefs. I do not, however, agree that those beliefs should be protected. You have to be religious, or believe that religion is in some way different to other outrageous beliefs in order to afford religion an unwarranted protection

If someone wants to believe that all religious people are simple minded warmongers, then good luck to them. If someone wants to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent super-being, then good luck to them. Both of those views are equally narrow minded and ridiculous in my opinion, but all 3 of us are entitled to our beliefs and our right to ridicule those positions we feel are ridiculous.

I'm member of about half a dozen forums, across several hobbies, including long range rifle shooting and mountain scrambling, as well as several dive forums. They all have increasing issues with religious discussions getting out of control. You can either view that as an ever increasing intolerance in society and s symptom of its degradation. Or you could view it as evolution. You are entitled to either.

Well, the point is (AFAIAC) that this is TDF and there is no need to be nasty (not you / some of the people putting down 'the faithful').

This comment is not directed at you but even I have noticed a "holier than thou" (did you see what I did there?), condescending, "I'm right" and "you're thick ☺☺☺☺ for believing" attitude. I might be exaggerating for the sake of emphasis AND that may not be the intended tone but that's how I read some posts.

Now, I don't know BUT it MAY be that Rioja and Stella only taste as good as they do because of God and perhaps it's just down to evolution. Personally, I'm not prepared to risk it so I'll remain theologically unconvinced but, nonetheless, quietly wish Him a "HBTY" every Christmas and, the older I get, wish with every aching bone in my body that He does exist.

Of course, I also raise a glass to Bacchus. Does he do beer or is it just wine and 'abandon'?

Finless
01-04-2013, 03:00 PM
The fact that people argue about what they believe in to the point of fighting and killing is enough to put me off.

That should just put you off people?

In the case of religion shooting the messenger may well be the correct thing to do. Well, the later messengers, anyway? :)

BTS
01-04-2013, 03:06 PM
Just go and quietly pray to your own gods and be nice. That's really all there is.

F**kin' hippy.....


:Kiss:

Soggy
01-04-2013, 03:31 PM
No one is ever going to win an argument about religion so what's the point in trying?



You simply cannot win a debate with someone who is religious. You would be applying reason and rational debate to a subject that is wholly irrational and unreasonable.

IanB
01-04-2013, 03:56 PM
You simply cannot win a debate with someone who is religious. You would be applying reason and rational debate to a subject that is wholly irrational and unreasonable." If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people "

Diving Dude
01-04-2013, 03:58 PM
You simply cannot win a debate with someone who is religious. You would be applying reason and rational debate to a subject that is wholly irrational and unreasonable.

I'll bet that the same was said years ago about the people that thought the world was round.

Diving Dude
01-04-2013, 04:01 PM
Gafie, I believe that no one has the right to ridicule anyone because of their beliefs, as I said in the pope thread, live and let live, which is what you said in the second part of your post.

Ron MacRae
01-04-2013, 04:28 PM
Why shouldn't theists be ridiculed. What they believe is by definition ridiculous. A man who lived in a cave and claims the universe was created in 20 minutes by a pink leopard, and that the Earth is actually a giant strawberry sitting in a universe made of black jelly would invite ridicule. Why should religion be protected from the same criticism just because it's had time to get a few people to stick to the same story?

Saying that all Christian people are warmongers, simple minded, or child abusers is ridiculous. However, people are entitled to THAT belief too. People have as much right to be offended at criticism of their belief that all christians are simple minded as do christians who are offended that their belief is being criticised.

Every man and woman and earth is entitled to their own personal beliefs. I do not, however, agree that those beliefs should be protected. You have to be religious, or believe that religion is in some way different to other outrageous beliefs in order to afford religion an unwarranted protection

If someone wants to believe that all religious people are simple minded warmongers, then good luck to them. If someone wants to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent super-being, then good luck to them. Both of those views are equally narrow minded and ridiculous in my opinion, but all 3 of us are entitled to our beliefs and our right to ridicule those positions we feel are ridiculous.

I'm member of about half a dozen forums, across several hobbies, including long range rifle shooting and mountain scrambling, as well as several dive forums. They all have increasing issues with religious discussions getting out of control. You can either view that as an ever increasing intolerance in society and s symptom of its degradation. Or you could view it as evolution. You are entitled to either.

I wouldn't disagree with most of that. Religion should be held up to examination and you have a perfect right to express any opinions you have on the subject. I have no problem with that. However IMO it went beyond riducule and became personal and offensive. You should not be surprised if people become annoyed and upset if you call them things like delusional, homophobic, etc, which was why I walked away from the earlier threads. The only reason I got involved in this one was that I got annoyed when someone said the religious people had walked away from a rational debate. These earlier threads were not rational debate. If there is ever a rational debate I'll be happy to take part.

What some of you don't seem to realise, or perhaps you do but don't care, is that religion is important to some people, it's not just a debating issue, it's fundimental to how they live their lives. You insult their religion you insult them. If someone came up to you and your family in the street and said I think you're wife's ugly or I think your kid is stupid would you stand and discuss the merits of his opinion? I suspect you'd get upset and at best tell him to 'F off' or hit him. But he's entitled to his opinion and entitled to express it. Theoretically.

I was thinking about going to Mark Powell's talk on Saturday night but then I saw some of the people who said they were going and I though I'm not sure I could be polite to them, and didn't go. I find that a bit sad but I now have a very low opinion of some of the people in TDF. If you can't be respectful of my beliefs then I don't really want to know you. I'm not asking you to agree with them, or even not find them rediculous, just to respect them as my beliefs and be a bit tolerant.

Just as I would do for anyone involved in things like rifle shooting :)

Ron.

Ron MacRae
01-04-2013, 04:33 PM
You simply cannot win a debate with someone who is religious. You would be applying reason and rational debate to a subject that is wholly irrational and unreasonable.

In your opinion.

Hickdive
01-04-2013, 06:45 PM
...I'm not asking you to agree with them, or even not find them rediculous, just to respect them as my beliefs and be a bit tolerant.


The above puts in a nutshell all your posts on this matter. If we find religion ridiculous and say so then automatically we must be "intolerant" and "disrespectful".

I'm perfectly happy to tolerate your beliefs and and to respect your right to hold them and, unlike most religious people, I'd step up to the barricades to defend your freedom to believe as you wish; do you genuinely see the average muslim doing the same to protect a jew's or christian's beliefs or vice versa?

But I do find religious beliefs ridiculous and it seems to me that the level of respect and tolerance you would like to be shown is for people to simply shut up. The fact that they won't is seen by you as inherently intolerant and disrespectful no matter what terms they might use.

Of course I could be wrong, I'm basing my opinion on the evidence of your posts and, since you've indicated that you don't believe people on TDF can hold a "respectful debate", perhaps you could enlighten us as to what terms of reference would constitute one? We don't actually have to have the debate, just some guidance on what a "respectful debate" might include or omit.

Soggy
01-04-2013, 07:02 PM
In your opinion.

So far you've done little to disprove it.

Paulo
01-04-2013, 07:06 PM
FFS lads, leave it out. there are enough threads on the go and others that were closed down for this sort of shite!

Anyway back on topic: mermaids ... do you think there was ever a man like mammal that ever roamed the sea?

Ken Hawk
01-04-2013, 07:14 PM
FFS lads, leave it out. there are enough threads on the go and others that were closed down for this sort of shite!

Anyway back on topic: mermaids ... do you think there was ever a man like mammal that ever roamed the sea?

You started it.

I just wish I had Rons faith, but would never even dream of putting him down.

Scuba steve
01-04-2013, 07:37 PM
I was brought up a Roman Catholic, all of the family still are.

I don't really care what people choose to believe in, if that is some 'higher spiritual place' which requires a bit of chemical enhancement to get there, then so be it. (Amazon Shamen etc.)
If that is a book of stories, that may or may not have some element of truth, then so be it.

I did hope the smiley at the end of my post would have sufficed :(

Drugs are a depravity of modern life . Visit any A&E on a fri and sat night in a city . If you even forget about hard drugs and just looked at the effects of "party " drugs on communities and family's . It's criminal enterprise at its best and reaches further than just the chemical enhancement that you seem to turn a blind eye to And almost condon . Drugs are responsible for violence , crime to pay for drugs such as burglary , prostitution , petty crime the list goes on and it's a rotten cycle . Also the effects it has on families are often forgotten . Now think about the hard drugs !!!!!

BTS
01-04-2013, 07:39 PM
Drugs are a depravity of modern life . Visit any A&E on a fri and sat night in a city . If you even forget about hard drugs and just looked at the effects of "party " drugs on communities and family's . It's criminal enterprise at its best and reaches further than just the chemical enhancement that you seem to turn a blind eye to And almost condon . Drugs are responsible for violence , crime to pay for drugs such as burglary , prostitution , petty crime the list goes on and it's a rotten cycle . Also the effects it has on families are often forgotten . Now think about the hard drugs !!!!!

That is one side of the coin... and very blinkered...

I bet you enjoyed a pint over Easter eh?

Lets think about all the good things drugs have given us...

BenL
01-04-2013, 07:47 PM
Drugs are a depravity of modern life .

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xUuPdx_QMIg/TrQV3U4MzwI/AAAAAAAAAAg/uG6Wwyjg36o/s1600/drugs_are_bad_mmkay.jpg

What rot.

londonsean69
01-04-2013, 07:53 PM
Drugs are a depravity of modern life . Visit any A&E on a fri and sat night in a city . If you even forget about hard drugs and just looked at the effects of "party " drugs on communities and family's . It's criminal enterprise at its best and reaches further than just the chemical enhancement that you seem to turn a blind eye to And almost condon . Drugs are responsible for violence , crime to pay for drugs such as burglary , prostitution , petty crime the list goes on and it's a rotten cycle . Also the effects it has on families are often forgotten . Now think about the hard drugs !!!!!

Did you actually read my post? I spoke about belief systems where people use chemical enhancement to reach a different spiritual plane, such as Shamen in the Amazon. Although of course they aren't the ones filling A&E of a weekend.

The worst drug, the one that destroys the most families, causes the most carnage, and truly does fill up A&E on a weekend is alcohol. It might not kill many people, but it ruins lives.
The next one, responsible for around 100,000 deaths a year in the UK a year is nicotine.

Both of these are very very addictive, and both of these make governments lots and lots of money.

Then there are the legal drugs, and stimulants, such as caffeine. There are people in my office that are absolute monsters until they get some caffeine in them.



In 2011 there were 8,748 alcohol-related deaths in the UK in 2011, 42 fewer than in 2010 (8,790).



£16.3 billion was estimated to be spent on tobacco in the UK in 2009
Around 81,400 deaths (18% of all deaths of adults aged 35 and over) were estimated to be caused by smoking in England in 2009
There were approximately 1.5 million hospital admissions with a primary diagnosis of a disease that can be caused by smoking in England in 2008/09. The annual number of admissions has been rising steadily since 1996/97, when the number of such admissions was 1.1 million


And, for the grand finale.....

Overall, drug-related deaths in the UK fell by almost 14 per cent from 2,182 in 2009 to 1,883 in 2010, reveals today’s National Programme on Substance Abuse Deaths (np-SAD) 2011 report.

As to "Visit any A&E on a fri and sat night in a city " yes, I have done. I used to wait outside A&E to meet my mum who would be finishing a late shift as a nurse, I didn't like her walking home by herself. The place was full of pissed up violent drunks masquerading as 'patients'.

I don't condone drugs, please point out where I did. If people choose to do drugs, whether they be legal or illegal, that is their decision. If people want to believe in Jesus, Santa Claus, God, the Easter Bunny, or the fact that Elvis is still alive, then that is their decision.

Scuba steve
01-04-2013, 08:08 PM
If I mis read then I'm sure others did .

I'm fully aware of the effects of alcohol and other drugs . I don't have off hand access to statistics like you . But is there 1 there for the amount spent on drug rehab that equivocates to the 14% drop in drug deaths ?

Hellenic Diver
01-04-2013, 08:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1CvW38cHA&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.
Bill Hicks

Soggy
01-04-2013, 08:15 PM
Drugs are a depravity of modern life .



Modern life?? You are kidding right?

Humans have been snorting, smoking and drinking drugs since we first started howling at the moon. There is nothing modern about drugs at all.

They have evidence of the Egyptian pharoahs doing cocaine.

Finless
01-04-2013, 08:20 PM
Modern life?? You are kidding right?

Humans have been snorting, smoking and drinking drugs since we first started howling at the moon. There is nothing modern about drugs at all.

They have evidence of the Egyptian pharoahs doing cocaine.

It was 'shrooms, man.

Or toad licking?

Scuba steve
01-04-2013, 08:21 PM
Modern life?? You are kidding right?

Humans have been snorting, smoking and drinking drugs since we first started howling at the moon. There is nothing modern about drugs at all.

They have evidence of the Egyptian pharoahs doing cocaine.

Drugs are run by criminal gangs and all the shit that comes with it for profit only . I don't things where ever as bad as they are now .

Soggy
01-04-2013, 08:23 PM
Drugs are run by criminal gangs and all the shit that comes with it for profit only . I don't things where ever as bad as they are now .

They are now and they are run by criminals because its illegal. Alcohol and tobacco is run by big business and makes very large profits. Humans like to get high....

londonsean69
01-04-2013, 08:25 PM
If I mis read then I'm sure others did .

I'm fully aware of the effects of alcohol and other drugs . I don't have off hand access to statistics like you . But is there 1 there for the amount spent on drug rehab that equivocates to the 14% drop in drug deaths ?

They don't have Google in Ireland?

londonsean69
01-04-2013, 08:27 PM
Drugs are run by criminal gangs and all the shit that comes with it for profit only . I don't things where ever as bad as they are now .

And Tobacco and Alcohol is taxed to the hilt by the biggest organised crime gang there is.

BTS
01-04-2013, 09:49 PM
Drugs are run by criminal gangs and all the shit that comes with it for profit only . I don't things where ever as bad as they are now .


You should stick to things you know about... All your posts on this subject are obviously written by someone without a clue...

Mikael
01-04-2013, 10:37 PM
.....
The only reason I got involved in this one was that I got annoyed when someone said the religious people had walked away from a rational debate. These earlier threads were not rational debate. If there is ever a rational debate I'll be happy to take part.

You have yet to tell me where in this thread it was claimed that the theists walked away from a rational debate during the Pope discussion. As I recall that hasn't been said but happy to be corrected if you wish to show me.


What some of you don't seem to realise, or perhaps you do but don't care, is that religion is important to some people, it's not just a debating issue, it's fundimental to how they live their lives. You insult their religion you insult them....

Surely if your belief is true then any ridicule is like water of a ducks back?! On the other hand if it is false then if others ridicule your belief it might be the catalyst for you shedding this falsehood in which case you potentially have something to gain. My suspicion is that those that feel most insulted by ridicule of religious beliefs is those who feel insecure in their belief. Those who inwardly at least have doubts and feel that ideas won't stand up to scrutiny so would prefer not listen to any form of criticism as it might lead to unfavourable conclusions.


I was thinking about going to Mark Powell's talk on Saturday night but then I saw some of the people who said they were going and I though I'm not sure I could be polite to them, and didn't go. I find that a bit sad but I now have a very low opinion of some of the people in TDF. If you can't be respectful of my beliefs then I don't really want to know you. I'm not asking you to agree with them, or even not find them rediculous, just to respect them as my beliefs and be a bit tolerant.

This strikes me as a great shame, surely we should focus on those things that unite not divide. Diving as a shared hobby could be the bridge to getting to know people you might otherwise not due to labels such as religion. You might find these people turn into great friends. I know people of various religious denominations (mostly Christian and Muslim) and while I make my view clear, I don't let this stop us from being friends.

BenL
01-04-2013, 10:49 PM
Drugs are run by criminal gangs and all the shit that comes with it for profit only . I don't things where ever as bad as they are now .

And Catholic priests...

Dangerous Minds | Cross-dressing, porn-selling priest guilty of heading up Conneticut meth ring (http://dangerousminds.net/comments/cross_dressing_porn_selling_priest_guilty_of_headi ng_up_conneticut_meth_rin)

Cheeky Monkey
01-04-2013, 11:12 PM
Drugs are run by criminal gangs and all the shit that comes with it for profit only . I don't things where ever as bad as they are now .


You should stick to things you know about... All your posts on this subject are obviously written by someone without a clue...

which bit wasn't right ?

when was it worse ?

Cheeky Monkey
01-04-2013, 11:14 PM
Surely if your belief is true then any ridicule is like water of a ducks back?! On the other hand if it is false then if others ridicule your belief it might be the catalyst for you shedding this falsehood in which case you potentially have something to gain. My suspicion is that those that feel most insulted by ridicule of religious beliefs is those who feel insecure in their belief. Those who inwardly at least have doubts and feel that ideas won't stand up to scrutiny so would prefer not listen to any form of criticism as it might lead to unfavourable conclusions

that's a pretty poor attempt to justify intolerant behaviour by the ignorant, IMO

Paulo
01-04-2013, 11:32 PM
I think the behaviour of certain members on this thread is very poor (even by my standards :) ). As an atheist I have over the years become used to getting a certain level of stick by theists about my lack of belief. I live my life with the attitude of I will do what I think is best and you do what you think is best and once it does no one any harm and does not contravene any laws then all is fine.

I do not ridicule anyone for their belief and in return I expect the same respect to be afforded to me for my lack of belief. Certain members on TDF though do not seem to be willing to show mutual respect. The "aggressiveness" if that is the right term, is all coming from the atheist side of the fence.

I do not doubt that everyone on here, be their, Catholic, COE, Presbyterian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Humanist, atheist, agnostic or any other, wishes to live their life in the best way that they can. Berating other for their choice of religion or lack of is not on IMO. If someone gets comfort from their belief, then surely we should welcome their choice and the benefit they get from it. It does not matter if you think there is any validity in their belief or not. Give them the same level of respect as you would like afforded to you.

Mikael
01-04-2013, 11:41 PM
that's a pretty poor attempt to justify intolerant behaviour by the ignorant, IMO

I am not trying to justify intolerant behaviour because I do not believe that rejecting some one else's idea when it comes up in debate and criticising it by pointing out its faults as intolerant. For this reason I feel ridicule can be misleading term as it involves derision and mockery which by connotation suggest an element of the personal or vindictive. As, has already been stated by hickdive, I respect another person's right to believe what ever they want but I'll reserve my right to hold the opinion that it is nonsense and I will be free to say so. If this is as perceived as intolerant by theists then they should think it over again. Even today, women taking the difficult choice of going to an abortion clinic may have to suffer further the indignity of passing picket lines of religious types heckling them and accusing them of murder.....

Diving Dude
02-04-2013, 12:23 AM
As l have said over and over again on yd over the years and it is what l taught my kids is that if when you have a discussion you put your viewpoint across to make your point, do not resort to criticising the others viewpoint, because as soon as this happens it shows that your position is weak. This is something that I truly believe.
Now, l've never read on YD or TDF thesists saying that to believe all life began with an explosion is ridiculous but have read many times that to believe otherwise is delusional/crazy etc etc and to have this viewpoint is ok because it is endorsed by the forum owner/starter our own Garfie.
So if everyone who says its ok to believe whatever you want really believes it, why try and belittle others or their viewpoint.

Oh, just in case anyone thinks otherwise, l'm an 'on the fence' guy, as long as its not taller than 6 ft and doesn't encroach my land.

Soggy and Sean, next time we have a beer it'll be interesting. :d

Diving Dude
02-04-2013, 12:29 AM
Ok, so posting using an iPad how do you add a smilie, l tried :d and it doesn't work.

Cheeky Monkey
02-04-2013, 12:32 AM
I'll reserve my right to hold the opinion that it is nonsense and I will be free to say so

well there's the rub

you can hold whatever opinions you like - no-one can stop you

but its perhaps not always the right thing to do to express them

Mikael
02-04-2013, 06:33 AM
....

Oh, just in case anyone thinks otherwise, l'm an 'on the fence' guy, as long as its not taller than 6 ft and doesn't encroach my land.

....

Bloody hell chief, well the day I see a man like you with a 6 ft inside leg then I'll be prepared to believe in giants. :D

GLOC
02-04-2013, 06:39 AM
And yet again the discussions end up in personal attacks and intolerance.

Final warning. Keep it civil, otherwise the thread is closed.

Regards

Mikael
02-04-2013, 07:00 AM
well there's the rub

you can hold whatever opinions you like - no-one can stop you

but its perhaps not always the right thing to do to express them

True, there is a time and place for everything. I guess TDF is the wrong place. While I do not always agree with what religions say, I still find myself intrigued by the mythology and customs at times. When visiting a mosque say, I will remove my shoes. It is possible to have opposing views but still be respectful of the other person.

P.S. diving in Lewis is amazing. If the rest of week is anything like yesterday, happy days! :)

Finless
02-04-2013, 10:06 AM
Ok, so posting using an iPad how do you add a smilie, l tried :d and it doesn't work.

Try : followed by )

Scuba steve
02-04-2013, 10:29 AM
They don't have Google in Ireland?

Of course but you seem to have it all to hand

londonsean69
02-04-2013, 10:39 AM
Of course but you seem to have it all to hand

I like to use facts to back up my point of view, rather than just throwing random statements out.

Finless
02-04-2013, 10:45 AM
Poseidon's the one to watch out for.

You don't want to annoy him and suffer the 'centre pronging of shame' because that'll hurt where the sun doesn't shine and will make your eyes water!

Actually, I don't think the sun has shined in Bexhill for the last 3 months. OK, who's upset the Big P?

Squidge
02-04-2013, 10:53 AM
I feel that I'm an agnostic with Buddhist tendencies.

Finless
02-04-2013, 11:21 AM
I feel that I'm an agnostic with Buddhist tendencies.

Shame you don't have any wreck tendencies!

Squidge
02-04-2013, 11:45 AM
Shame you don't have any wreck tendencies!

I do get very un-Buddhist-like murderous tendencies occasionally........

Finless
02-04-2013, 12:11 PM
I do get very un-Buddhist-like murderous tendencies occasionally........

Why? What's Paul done to upset you?

Play him this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHDA5nHlDrQ): maybe it'll jog his memory or, at least, make him feel worried.

Squidge
02-04-2013, 12:18 PM
Why? What's Paul done to upset you?

Play him this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHDA5nHlDrQ): maybe it'll jog his memory or, at least, make him feel worried.

He hasn't done anything to upset me.

I'm p*ssed off because I keep getting a nasty headache behind my right eye, the wind is too windy and I can't go diving to see whether I've fixed the hole in my suit and serviced my housing buttons correctly. So there. :swear:

ebt
02-04-2013, 12:26 PM
I had the jehovahs this morning. they vary between those who are polite and those who are just irritating.

As I said to this mornings lot, "Im sorry, but I believe in the gods of bacon and tetley and I suspect they'll both be vengeful if neglect them right now. goodbye". She had the good grace to chuckle.

Finless
02-04-2013, 12:26 PM
He hasn't done anything to upset me.You women always say that and then expect us poor males to guess what's wrong!


I'm p*ssed off because I keep getting a nasty headache behind my right eyeGo and see a doctor (or optician)!


the wind is too windyImagine you are a sailor!


and I can't go diving to see whether I've fixed the hole in my suit and serviced my housing buttons correctly. So there. :swear:Had you ever thought of diving on a wreck where you can get out of the current and play with your hole and buttons to your heart's content? You could even take a picture or 2 of the wreck whilst testing your buttons!

Squidge
02-04-2013, 12:30 PM
Had you ever thought of diving on a wreck where you can get out of the current and play with your hole and buttons to your heart's content? You could even take a picture or 2 of the wreck whilst testing your buttons!

It was diving on a bloody wreck that put the hole in my god-damned suit! :punch:

notdeadyet
02-04-2013, 12:43 PM
I had the jehovahs this morning. they vary between those who are polite and those who are just irritating.

As I said to this mornings lot, "Im sorry, but I believe in the gods of bacon and tetley and I suspect they'll both be vengeful if neglect them right now. goodbye". She had the good grace to chuckle.

I don't think I've ever had the atheists round interrupting Bargain Hunt or a quiet ham shank before tea. On the other hand I get a constant stream of riff raff, hawkers, born agains, happy clappers, Witlesses, Tories, Betterware salesmen and assorted urchins.

Ironically I live in an old church so maybe I've made a rod for my own back (not Catholic though so maybe the wrong metaphor). It did amuse when we hung the pentacle above the door.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Finless
02-04-2013, 12:44 PM
It was diving on a bloody wreck that put the hole in my god-damned suit! :punch:

I've noticed that you shutter-bugs don't pay much attention to what you're doing!

Now, IF you'd taken my advice and been taking a nice big wide angle shot then you shouldn't have been so close to sharp and pointy, would you?

Scuba steve
02-04-2013, 01:41 PM
I like to use facts to back up my point of view, rather than just throwing random statements out.

During my work iv been in shooting gallery's surrounded by hard drug users ( the smell sticks with you for life ) Iv been down dark alleys secluded from safety . Iv had to contain families in one room in their own home while medics work to save the live of their son , husband , or father in another room . Iv walked into screens of shootings stabbing and brutal violence hopeing that the perpetrator has left while I deal with his victim .

My experiences are first handed not from behind a computer screen . I accept that drink and smoking have very bad effects on health and mortality rates . But governments have log aliased these and have made fortunes trought out the years which has been pumped into health and other government coffers . The profits of drugs go straight into funding other organised crimes .

Drugs and the profits or results of drugs should not be defended by an argument of drink or smoking .

londonsean69
02-04-2013, 01:50 PM
Drugs and the profits or results of drugs should not be defended by an argument of drink or smoking .

You're missing the point. Alcohol and nicotine ARE drugs, and the vast majority of people filling up A&E of a weekend (which is your original point) are not illegal drug users, they are boozed up. Unless of course Ireland has a vastly different number of hardcore drug addict (read crack and heroin) than the rest of the UK.

Then again, the sheer volume of people killed worldwide, year in year out, in the name of religion, beggars belief.

Religion is just one method of controlling a population. If people want to believe in some made up idol, crack on. I'll stick with things I can quantify, which actually exist, and have been proven to exist.

Scuba steve
02-04-2013, 02:30 PM
We had moved off my original point along time ago .

Ireland would have a similar problem to that of England . The country side problem would be similar whereas the city's have different . I work in Dublin city on a response car and would be tasked to all life treathening incidents across the city . I see hear feel smell touch and experience more in 1 night than most on here could ever dream about or see in a lifetime . I do accept Drink most certainly is a health hazard splits families and causes hardship . This has been the case for decades if not centuries . Drugs are as I originally said a modern scurge .

londonsean69
02-04-2013, 02:45 PM
Drugs are as I originally said a modern scurge .

Whereas religion is a scourge that has plagued mankind since pre-history ;)

You need to define modern;
Opium for instance was well used in the 1800s.
They only stopped putting cocaine in Coca-cola in 1929.
I imagine magic mushrooms were in the diet of some in the middle ages.

Did you know that MDMA (ecstacy) is now being trialled in the states as a treatment for PTSD? Most people think of MDMA as a modern drug, it was first synthesised in 1912.

There is a great book you should read, PIHKAL, by Dr Alexander Shulgin.
Although it doesn't have any rape, incest or murder in it, unlike the bible ;)

Scuba steve
02-04-2013, 03:04 PM
Whereas religion is a scourge that has plagued mankind since pre-history ;)

You need to define modern;
Opium for instance was well used in the 1800s.
They only stopped putting cocaine in Coca-cola in 1929.
I imagine magic mushrooms were in the diet of some in the middle ages.

Did you know that MDMA (ecstacy) is now being trialled in the states as a treatment for PTSD? Most people think of MDMA as a modern drug, it was first synthesised in 1912.

There is a great book you should read, PIHKAL, by Dr Alexander Shulgin.
Although it doesn't have any rape, incest or murder in it, unlike the bible ;)

As iv said i have christian beliefs of doing more good than bad . im not a practicing catholic so im not going the defend the church .

I'm well aware of the origins of most drugs the times they were first used etc . They wernt mass produced until crime bosses got into the loop .

jturner
02-04-2013, 03:20 PM
One thing's for sure - this thread has gone off on a different spiritual plane, further "out there" than most shaman could manage, with or without mind-bending drugs!

Finless
02-04-2013, 03:49 PM
One thing's for sure - this thread has gone off on a different spiritual plane, further "out there" than most shaman could manage, with or without mind-bending drugs!

Um, um, um, do you mean Wayne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SV0q5ZQ46k)?

Better sounding here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEH8xBlw2JI).

londonsean69
02-04-2013, 03:53 PM
One thing's for sure - this thread has gone off on a different spiritual plane, further "out there" than most shaman could manage, with or without mind-bending drugs!

I no longer need drugs, my mind is mad enough without them ;)

Ron MacRae
03-04-2013, 05:30 PM
Surely if your belief is true then any ridicule is like water of a ducks back.

If the problem was your opinion of my faith then that would be true, it is, as you say, water off a ducks back. However your missing my whole point in this thread which, IMO, is about acceptance of minorities within TDF. Let me try one last time before I give up for good on the subject. It not the lack of agreement with my opinions that I object to it's the aggressive way the lack of agreement is expressed and the pejorative language used, which I've not experienced before and honestly wasn't expecting.

I have no problem with you finding my belief ridiculous, it's your loss. :)
I agree to a certain extent they defy 'rational' explaination and are not proveable.
It took me many years to be comfortable with them myself so I really can't complain if others "don't get it".

If we were to discuss/argue about religion and agree to disagree we could be friends.
If you said my beliefs were ridiculous I might think you a bit tactless but we could still be friends.
If you were to ridicule my beliefs then you have no respect for me, or my opinions, and because of that we could not be friends.
It's all about how you disagree.

To me this is not about religion, it's about acceptance of people who are different to you and how you interact with them.
I'd have the same criteria for a discussion if I was gay, a vegan, a druid, or seriously believed I had a pink monkey up my arse.

If I was talking to a vegan friend their food beliefs would not normally be discussed. I wouldn't force my opinions on them. If it came up in discussion I'd say "I don't agree with you, I'm designed as an omnivore, and I like steak". I'd expect them to be comfortable with that statement. However if I said "Your beliefs are stupid and you must be delusional to hold them" then, IMO, they'd be justified in getting upset and having nothing more to do with me.

You can't say, as Garf did, that my beliefs should be ridiculed if you also believe TDF is an inclusive forum where people with alternative views are welcome. I don't call being stood in a corner, while the redneck bullies point at me and laugh, welcoming.

I was on the point, a couple of days, of leaving TDF because I felt a wave of hostility across several threads towards Christian views. Not disagreement, I don't mind that and I'm used to it, but hostility. Perhaps my recent experiences here have made me too sensitive? I'm not sure but I don't think so. However yesterday I saw that a few people had got my point and made supportive statements in one way or another and decided to stay. Also I'm bloody minded and don't like being run out of town.

That's not to say you shouldn't take the piss out of religion and Christianity. However it if happens all the time then it becomes bullying. When it's 1 person against 20 or 30 it's very easy for it to feel like bullying to that 1 person.

Also real complaints about the scandelous behaviour of some Christians, like the ones you mentioned who stand outside abortion clinics, should be condemned. You've no idea the stick they take from the rest of the Christian community, and they deserve it IMO.

I suspect some of this is down to the internet. In a face to face discussion some of the people might not be so agressive and perhaps with a bit of body language some of the agressive statements might have seemed less so. It's very easy to read things into an written document that the author didn't really mean that way. I'm not sure.

I'm a Christian. I'm comfortable with my religion and it's unlikely to change significantly. If that's acceptable to the TDF membership then let's leave it a that can we?

Ron.

Paulo
03-04-2013, 05:45 PM
Unless of course Ireland has ......... than the rest of the UK.

Eh, what do you mean REST of the UK?

Ireland is NOT A part of the UK and has not been for 91 years!

Diving Dude
03-04-2013, 06:14 PM
Eh, what do you mean REST of the UK?

Ireland is NOT A part of the UK and has not been for 91 years!

Come on, deep down you know it is. We've just let you play with governing yourselves for a while. :)

Paulo
03-04-2013, 06:17 PM
Come on, deep down you know it is. We've just let you play with governing yourselves for a while. :)


<removed>

the OP said (and I'm paraphrasing) 'thank you for your considered comment, but I disagree'.

gpj
03-04-2013, 06:52 PM
Eh, what do you mean REST of the UK?

Ireland is NOT A part of the UK and has not been for 91 years!

Correct
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Eire is not in the UK.

Paulo
03-04-2013, 06:54 PM
Correct
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Eire is not in the UK.

I am fully aware of that. Thank you.

TxNinja
03-04-2013, 07:05 PM
Didn't we just mortgage Eire to the Germans?

sheesh
03-04-2013, 07:23 PM
Didn't we just mortgage Eire to the Germans?

Don't say that.
They might give it back to the UK without settling the debts ;)

GLOC
03-04-2013, 07:32 PM
Ron,

Thanks for that post, I appreciate you outlining the issues. Even though the Mods appear to be omnipresent, we aren't. In the main it is only when post counts go up very quickly in a thread do I have a look in, or if I know it is going to be a contentious subject (or one that interests me). The rest of the time I (and the other Mods) rely on 'Reported Posts'.

I don't have an issue with plenty of genuine reported posts which are raised because the posts are contrary to keeping the 'community' happy; I have just had to deal with a whole bunch of other forum members who don't understand community...

Those who want to discuss this matter, please be grown up about it. Remove the 'personal' from the discussion as Ron suggests, makes things so much easier and more peaceful.

Regards

Baron015
03-04-2013, 11:25 PM
If the problem was your opinion of my faith then that would be true, it is, as you say, water off a ducks back. However your missing my whole point in this thread which, IMO, is about acceptance of minorities within TDF. Let me try one last time before I give up for good on the subject. It not the lack of agreement with my opinions that I object to it's the aggressive way the lack of agreement is expressed and the pejorative language used, which I've not experienced before and honestly wasn't expecting.

I have no problem with you finding my belief ridiculous, it's your loss. :)
I agree to a certain extent they defy 'rational' explaination and are not proveable.
It took me many years to be comfortable with them myself so I really can't complain if others "don't get it".

If we were to discuss/argue about religion and agree to disagree we could be friends.
If you said my beliefs were ridiculous I might think you a bit tactless but we could still be friends.
If you were to ridicule my beliefs then you have no respect for me, or my opinions, and because of that we could not be friends.
It's all about how you disagree.

To me this is not about religion, it's about acceptance of people who are different to you and how you interact with them.
I'd have the same criteria for a discussion if I was gay, a vegan, a druid, or seriously believed I had a pink monkey up my arse.

If I was talking to a vegan friend their food beliefs would not normally be discussed. I wouldn't force my opinions on them. If it came up in discussion I'd say "I don't agree with you, I'm designed as an omnivore, and I like steak". I'd expect them to be comfortable with that statement. However if I said "Your beliefs are stupid and you must be delusional to hold them" then, IMO, they'd be justified in getting upset and having nothing more to do with me.

You can't say, as Garf did, that my beliefs should be ridiculed if you also believe TDF is an inclusive forum where people with alternative views are welcome. I don't call being stood in a corner, while the redneck bullies point at me and laugh, welcoming.

I was on the point, a couple of days, of leaving TDF because I felt a wave of hostility across several threads towards Christian views. Not disagreement, I don't mind that and I'm used to it, but hostility. Perhaps my recent experiences here have made me too sensitive? I'm not sure but I don't think so. However yesterday I saw that a few people had got my point and made supportive statements in one way or another and decided to stay. Also I'm bloody minded and don't like being run out of town.

That's not to say you shouldn't take the piss out of religion and Christianity. However it if happens all the time then it becomes bullying. When it's 1 person against 20 or 30 it's very easy for it to feel like bullying to that 1 person.

Also real complaints about the scandelous behaviour of some Christians, like the ones you mentioned who stand outside abortion clinics, should be condemned. You've no idea the stick they take from the rest of the Christian community, and they deserve it IMO.

I suspect some of this is down to the internet. In a face to face discussion some of the people might not be so agressive and perhaps with a bit of body language some of the agressive statements might have seemed less so. It's very easy to read things into an written document that the author didn't really mean that way. I'm not sure.

I'm a Christian. I'm comfortable with my religion and it's unlikely to change significantly. If that's acceptable to the TDF membership then let's leave it a that can we?

Ron.

Ron

Your post makes lots of valid points and is friendly in tone. But there might be one aspect of the atheistic lot that you haven't fully taken into account.

Choosing to eat meat or not, even whether you like marmite or don't like it, are choices that can be understood by atheists. They deal in real physical things that you can touch, deciding between one thing or the other thing.

People with religion are choosing faith - it's not the same thing. An individual is just a regular person in every respect, drinks beer, eats bacon or pizza or whatever, believe in chemical reactions and physical laws. Just the same as atheist so far. But also believes in an imaginary friend, for which you need faith not proof or evidence.

That last bit is just difficult to comprehend for the atheist and what might lead to the sort of thinking "they seemed normal, looked normal, sounded normal, we got on well and liked the same things, but then I learned about the imaginary friend" which seems rude or intolerant, but actually is just saying "yep everything was good up until then but that last part just seemed hard to swallow" if you don't believe in it yourself.

But then I don't believe in Homeopathy or Psychics either. My view is that they are complete bollocks. Is that just rude to say so, or is it similarly intolerant or is that something different ?

No aggro or insults were meant in the writing of this post.

Tb.

Divemouse
04-04-2013, 07:13 AM
But then I don't believe in Homeopathy or Psychics either
I read that as physics...

Graham Smith
04-04-2013, 07:27 AM
Just to put everything into a bit of perspective as to where we (Humans) actually are in the (known) universe.....take a look here.... The Scale of the Universe 2 (http://htwins.net/scale2/)

I find this totally mind boggling....and we still don't know the half of it.....


G

jturner
04-04-2013, 07:34 AM
People with religion are choosing faith - it's not the same thing. An individual is just a regular person in every respect, drinks beer, eats bacon or pizza or whatever, believe in chemical reactions and physical laws. Just the same as atheist so far. But also believes in an imaginary friend, for which you need faith not proof or evidence.

That last bit is just difficult to comprehend for the atheist and what might lead to the sort of thinking "they seemed normal, looked normal, sounded normal, we got on well and liked the same things, but then I learned about the imaginary friend" which seems rude or intolerant, but actually is just saying "yep everything was good up until then but that last part just seemed hard to swallow" if you don't believe in it yourself.

I'll let Ron answer for himself but in the meantime, a couple of things caught my eye:


"Imaginary friend"? What was the point raised about emotive language again?!! Let's not start that again eh?!
I might find it difficult to comprehend why you cannot just accept that someone might choose to believe in something you don't. Does that mean it should lead to me thinking that you "seemed normal, looked normal, sounded normal, we got on well and liked the same things, but then I learned about" your dellusions of humanity's supremacy? I think you'd be a little taken aback, if not offended perhaps? At the very least, you might think I'm a little rude or ignorant?!


Just a thought!

Soggy
04-04-2013, 07:59 AM
[LIST=1]
"Imaginary friend"? What was the point raised about emotive language again?!! Let's not start that again eh?!


Hardly emotive, where in the statement of "imaginary friend" is there any falsehood? There is no proof of the existence of god, thus he must be imaginary and he's your friend, therefore imaginary friend fits the bill perfectly.

gordyp
04-04-2013, 08:53 AM
My sister is very religious and has pushed my two neices to attend church and prayer meetings etc.

I'm athiest and always have been, was taken to church as a kid and just always thought it was nonsense.

In a conversation with my sister regarding what I was 'allowed' to say to her kids if they asked if I believed in god, I jokingly said I would tell them that I beleived in Jedi, i was told not to be so ridiculous! Seems similar to someone of my thinking!

notdeadyet
04-04-2013, 09:12 AM
My sister is very religious and has pushed my two neices to attend church and prayer meetings etc.

I'm athiest and always have been, was taken to church as a kid and just always thought it was nonsense.

In a conversation with my sister regarding what I was 'allowed' to say to her kids if they asked if I believed in god, I jokingly said I would tell them that I beleived in Jedi, i was told not to be so ridiculous! Seems similar to someone of my thinking!

You're doing well she actually lets you talk to them :D

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Hickdive
04-04-2013, 09:55 AM
It seems that anything beyond saying "I don't have a belief in god(s)" will be seen as offensive and class anyone who steps over that mark as a "redneck bully". Well, I'm offended by that accusation! Should I now start to complain about people's "behaviour"?

There should be a theistic equivalent of Godwin's Law. Instead of shutting down a debate by comparing your opponent with the Nazis; you simply have to complain of being offended. And, no matter how carefully phrased, everything a non-believer might write is "offensive".

Mal
04-04-2013, 09:56 AM
Guys

It has been repeatedly pointed out that discussion of Religion is not allowed by the T&Cs of the site - the simple reason being it drives a divide between people who have come here to discuss diving.

We permit the discussion whilst it is courteous, constructive and respectful of the views of either side of the debate. On the other hand pejorative statements, bigotry and posts which are rude, regardless of which side of the fence you sit, are not permitted.

I am of a mind to give the thread one more day to allow participants to complete the expression of their views in a courteous, constructive and respectful way and if that cannot be achieved then I will close the thread and propose a period of very heavy-handed moderation on such discussions.

I really don't like to see people I know squabbling like this and ask for your support in creating a more tolerant tone.
Mal

londonsean69
04-04-2013, 10:03 AM
It's all Paulo's fault :D He knew exactly where this would head, and that there would be several tangents :)

Paulo
04-04-2013, 10:09 AM
It's all Paulo's fault :D He knew exactly where this would head, and that there would be several tangents :)

As I said to Wilbo last night when I got a warning over my reply to Dude's shit stirring your clearly provocative post:
You will find I have on several occasions tried to steer the thread back on topic. We already have had 2 threads closed because of this type of bullshite whee people feel they need to show their views down the necks of others.

Finless
04-04-2013, 10:10 AM
It's all Paulo's fault :D He knew exactly where this would head, and that there would be several tangents :)

I love tangents ..... especially when they peel easily and are sweet and juicy and don't have pips.

Same goes for women, too.
:)

londonsean69
04-04-2013, 10:21 AM
As I said to Wilbo last night when I got a warning over my reply to Dude's shit stirring your clearly provocative post:
You will find I have on several occasions tried to steer the thread back on topic. We already have had 2 threads closed because of this type of bullshite whee people feel they need to show their views down the necks of others.

So why start a thread/poll involving the most provocative of topics? Religion. They always go the same way. They are probably worse than any of the following;

Which agency should I choose?
What CCR should I get?
Where should I put my pony?
What's all this DIR nonsense?


As to clearly provactive, if you mean where I said "the rest of the UK", it should have been "compared to the UK".

jturner
04-04-2013, 10:41 AM
Hardly emotive, where in the statement of "imaginary friend" is there any falsehood? There is no proof of the existence of god, thus he must be imaginary and he's your friend, therefore imaginary friend fits the bill perfectly.

Well, I feel the unwritten sentiments that might be behind the statement could be interpreted by some people as offensive - "you and your imaginary friend eh? Oh how cute (and simple) you are!". Whether or not that's what is meant is another matter of course! The old problem with internet discussions, as usual!

I'm fascinated by why people on any side of the fence believe what they do, especially if they've actually thought about it and formulated a position which they can explain rather than just spouting someone else's dogma but I think that perhaps the only way to discuss such things is face-to-face so such nuances don't get misunderstood. Certainly doing it here doesn't seem to get anything but circular arguments.
:(

Paulo
04-04-2013, 10:45 AM
It was the topic of a few documentaries I had seen over the previous weeks. I actually asked very early on for the poll to be fixed by a mod and asked people on several occasions to not drag this into a 3rd religion thead. As it was not at all the conversation I wanted to have.

As an atheist I am actually very interested in the sociological and anthropological impacts that religion have on people and how they have shaped the various traditions and customs around the world. I am also interested folklores like bigfoot, aliens, mermaids, ghosts etc so hence my OP.

Yes if you had said compared to as opposed to rest of then I would not have got as annoyed. I have given my entire adult life and almost half my entire life playing my part in protecting my country's sovereign right to independance.

Sorry about all of the typos but i am on my phone

Ron MacRae
04-04-2013, 11:44 AM
I'll let Ron answer for himself but in the meantime, a couple of things caught my eye:


"Imaginary friend"? What was the point raised about emotive language again?!! Let's not start that again eh?!
I might find it difficult to comprehend why you cannot just accept that someone might choose to believe in something you don't. Does that mean it should lead to me thinking that you "seemed normal, looked normal, sounded normal, we got on well and liked the same things, but then I learned about" your dellusions of humanity's supremacy? I think you'd be a little taken aback, if not offended perhaps? At the very least, you might think I'm a little rude or ignorant?!


Just a thought!

I wasn't sure where to reply but I think I'll start here. I did not take offence at the term "imaginary friend" in this case because of the tone and context that I felt the whole post was written in, calm and reasonable and asking a serious question. I have taken offence to the same term used elsewhere because I felt , rightly or wrongly, it was in the context of an agressive post that seemed to be seriously implaying christians were mentally defective.

It's all about context and how you say things. Unfortunatly other than smileys there is no way to judge the mood/intent of the writer. We make judgements based on the words and sometimes we misjudge something that might be intended to be jokey as agressive/offensive.

I'm not going to discuss my religious views on TDF because I think there is too much opertunity to see agression when perhaps it's not intended. If I ever meet up one to one on a dive boat I'd be happy to have such a discussion, if we haven't got other things to discuss. I'll then be able to tell if it's a genuine question requiring an discussion, a piss take requiring a witty reply, or an agressive statement requiring me to throw you over the side. :)

Sorry, must get back to work, a bit manic today.

Ron.

Finless
04-04-2013, 11:52 AM
Which agency should I choose? - PADI / IANTDI. Obviously!
What CCR should I get? - THIS ONE! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIjUY3pjN8E)
Where should I put my pony? - ON THE number 6 at White City in the 19:30.
What's all this DIR nonsense? - PRECISELY!

Mikael
05-04-2013, 09:36 AM
Well, I feel the unwritten sentiments that might be behind the statement could be interpreted by some people as offensive - "you and your imaginary friend eh? Oh how cute (and simple) you are!". Whether or not that's what is meant is another matter of course! The old problem with internet discussions, as usual!
.....



......

It's all about context and how you say things. Unfortunatly other than smileys there is no way to judge the mood/intent of the writer. We make judgements based on the words and sometimes we misjudge something that might be intended to be jokey as agressive/offensive.
.....


Given that an internet forum is not face to face with body language, tone of voice to help communicate it is easy to get angry/upset just like road rage. For this reason I find it best to remain neutral if the meaning is ambiguous after all there is no point in seeking out offence. Also when people speak directly to each other, especially on issues of opposing opinion we do tend to pussyfoot a bit. For good or bad on an internet forum we are usually inclined to be a lot more forthright, though that does not have to equate to 'aggressiveness'.


I wasn't sure where to reply but I think I'll start here. I did not take offence at the term "imaginary friend" in this case because of the tone and context that I felt the whole post was written in, calm and reasonable and asking a serious question. I have taken offence to the same term used elsewhere because I felt , rightly or wrongly, it was in the context of an agressive post that seemed to be seriously implaying christians were mentally defective.

.....

Are Christians mentally defective, No, bare with me. As habit forming creatures we are apparently predisposed to taking on beliefs some of them irrational whether or not they have an evolutionary advantage, like for example the repulsion we feel at seeing rotting meat. Its just rotting meat but if we stuck our face in there is a good chance the bacteria would make us ill or worse even kill us. In this way our response to rotting meat is a safety barrier our brain has latched onto. Other examples include superstitious beliefs such as throwing pinch of salt over the shoulder, bad luck if a black cat walks past you, don't walk under ladders - well that last one has a good point. In many Asian countries the number 4 is considered unlucky because it sounds like the word death, so they don't like to have that floor number or a multiple of it in apartment buildings;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/ShanghaiMissingFloors.jpg

These are sometimes referred to as Gris-Gris (pronounced Gree Gree) a term used by sceptics to describe an irrational belief we are reluctant to let go off. We all have them. Read this blog (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1452-everybody-got-a-gris-gris.html) for a further explanation. So No, in this sense Christians aren't mentally defective, rational thinking is simply not how the brain is wired to work.

Then again we are mentally defective here, after all we submerse ourselves in non-breathable liquid with only a few £100s worth of equipment to keep us alive as a hobby! :whew:

Mal
05-04-2013, 10:45 AM
I had hoped the heavy hint I dropped yesterday would be enough and my gratitude goes to those who have stepped away from the thread.

Mal

P.S. No more discussions of Religion for the time being, thanks.