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divedaz
24-03-2013, 06:11 AM
and why?

Nitnab Nhoj
24-03-2013, 06:48 AM
and why?

Define deep air diving first. What is deep?

edward
24-03-2013, 07:16 AM
Deep air is daft. Despite what people say, you can't build up a tolerance. You can build up some regular routines that you can do narked,and build up a run of luck that you mistake for not being affected by narcosis.

The problem is, you get away with it. Until you don't. Then something goes wrong, you try to cope with a fogged brain and go spiralling off into the incident pit. And however dived up you think you are, if something unexpected happens you will discover you are narked.

Deep air is not big or clever. If can lead to a world of pain for you, or if it goes really wrong, those left behind. I wish I didn't know that.

Nitnab Nhoj
24-03-2013, 07:20 AM
Deep air is daft. Despite what people say, you can't build up a tolerance. You can build up some regular routines that you can do narked,and build up a run of luck that you mistake for not being affected by narcosis.

The problem is, you get away with it. Until you don't. Then something goes wrong, you try to cope with a fogged brain and go spiralling off into the incident pit. And however dived up you think you are, if something unexpected happens you will discover you are narked.

Deep air is not big or clever. If can lead to a world of pain for you, or if it goes really wrong, those left behind. I wish I didn't know that.

A group of very experienced divers were discussing this recently and came to a similar conclusion in that the same can be said for closed-circuit diving and all diving below, say, 20m, even with trimix. Amateur divers simply do not do enough diving to be proficient when things go wrong. (Doesn't help my career though!)

Graham Smith
24-03-2013, 07:32 AM
A group of very experienced divers were discussing this recently and came to a similar conclusion in that the same can be said for closed-circuit diving and all diving below, say, 20m, even with trimix. Amateur divers simply do not do enough diving to be proficient when things go wrong. (Doesn't help my career though!)

So perhaps all this quarry diving by GUE divers that everyone seems to enjoy taking the piss out of may actually have a point after all?

I would never have thought it....


G

holly
24-03-2013, 07:47 AM
Not for me,

I get narked easy ;)

doggy's doodah
24-03-2013, 08:37 AM
Nobody has yet defined 'deep' in this context.

I am happy to dive to 50ish on air. (When much younger, even deeper....) I do not feel narked, but, having been fortunate enough to have had several pot dives in the past, I do know how I physically and mentally feel at 50m when there is nothing to do but sit and self asess.

Therefore, when diving at these depths I am fairly circumspect.


Also, I have no desire to go down he rebreather/mixed gas o/c route as the cost disadvantages (to me) far outweigh the diving advantages.

purple vonny
24-03-2013, 08:38 AM
Not for me,

I get narked easy ;)

Ditto. There's no joy in feeling drunk and stupid underwater. (Although I do enjoy a nice "bounce" on holiday - knowing my limits)

BluDL
24-03-2013, 09:04 AM
Narcosis is so variable. I don't seem to get the scary pannicky feelings that some get. I perhaps feel 'fizzyheaded' at 40m + on air but this depends on good/bad vis; cold/warm water; work on the dive; hydration; what day it is. I have done 55m in chuuk and felt clear headed but obviously not as i forgot to get a photo of the tanks on deck of sanfran. I have dived with someone who got very narced at the top of hydrobox stoney cove. As it seems o2,n2 and co2 have their place in narcosis, i believe it is co2 narcs that are the scarier ones. If your breathing is not full and is lots of short breaths i think this may retain co2. So i try to minimise work and avoid get tired and out of breath. All above is just my opinion though.

Major Clanger
24-03-2013, 09:06 AM
I've done 50m air dives without feeling any different but now set a personal limit of 35m ead for a margin.

Nitnab Nhoj
24-03-2013, 09:13 AM
A lot of people have dived the wrecks of Bikini Atoll (max depth 55m) on twinsets of air with Nitrox 80 for deco. When I told Fabio Amaral that when I wrote the story for that mag. readers might write to say we should have been using trimix, he said, "Tell them we don't want them here!"
It's a long way to go to sit on the beach.

MikeF
24-03-2013, 09:54 AM
Deep air is daft. Despite what people say, you can't build up a tolerance. You can build up some regular routines that you can do narked,and build up a run of luck that you mistake for not being affected by narcosis.

The problem is, you get away with it. Until you don't. Then something goes wrong, you try to cope with a fogged brain and go spiralling off into the incident pit. And however dived up you think you are, if something unexpected happens you will discover you are narked.

Deep air is not big or clever. If can lead to a world of pain for you, or if it goes really wrong, those left behind. I wish I didn't know that.


A group of very experienced divers were discussing this recently and came to a similar conclusion in that the same can be said for closed-circuit diving and all diving below, say, 20m, even with trimix. Amateur divers simply do not do enough diving to be proficient when things go wrong. (Doesn't help my career though!)

Two interesting points and I feel both are essentially right.

Not sure what you class as deep air but in my younger days I used to do a lot of deepish air diving down to 70m along with a regular team and some of the lads did 100m air dives. Personally I always cosidered 65m as the 'sensible limit' of deep air. We took our diving very seriously and were in many respects of a GUE mindset when it came to kit standardisation and diving practice. We could mix and match buddies and all ran the same deco profiles and kit configuration down to a standard suit inflation nipple so we could grab anyone else's kit and jump in if needed and there was little need to run over how your kit was configured in buddy checks as it was all the same.

At the time I was doing anywhere between 100 and 300 dives a year and still needed to maintain 'narcosis tolerance'. In my experience 'narcosis tolerance' depends on the amount of diving being done at the time, the individual concerned and some other factor I suspected was in your head (people always feel more narked on dark, gloomy dives in poor vis). My own view is that the reality of narcosis tolerance is the ability to function while narked, much like an alcoholic can drink a bottle of gin and still function (as a side note I also remember we all suffered to some degree from a loss of short term memory while regularly diving deep air). In order to maintain that ability to function I needed to do a 50m+ dive at least once a fortnight (or else it was back to build up dives) and practice, practice, practice until all forseeable 'what if' required actions could be performed without thinking before doing any 'proper diving' on deep offshore sites. Luckily we all lived within a couple of hours of Dot at the time and had chance to practice in sheltered deep water.

I now only average around 50 dives a year and feel I would die if I tried to do the same dives now. I still dive deep wrecks but in some respects feel less comfortable with a 60m or 70m wreck on CC trimix than I did on air because I realise I just don't dive often enough nowadays to keep at the top of the game. Most of my old dive buddies (even the 100m boys) won't now dive beyond 40m for the same reason. I've done a couple of thousand or so dives in my time and hundreds below 50m on air, a couple of years ago I did a 50m+ air dive in the red sea (the first OC deep air dive I had done for about 3 years and I built up to it over about 5 or 6 dives) and whilst I could function, I was surprised at how uncomfortable and narked I felt. I subsequently pulled back the depth for the rest of the trip.

Deep air diving needs to be taken very seriously but so does gas diving and rebreathers. Jumping in for a 60m+ dive once or twice a year is not very clever at all no matter how experienced you are or what you are breathing.

notdeadyet
24-03-2013, 10:11 AM
Deep air is just a sliding scale of risk. If you want to do a certain dive then there is a level of risk associated with it that you either accept or don't accept.

"Like" deep air... I've not a lot of time for people who say they like it. It's just stupidity. On the other hand, there have been plenty of situations where I've either had to dive deep air or not at all. I know... there is always helium... blah blah blah... Unfortunately, diving didn't arrive fully formed in 2004 wrapped up in an Ikea box.

I dived air deep regularly, 60m wrecks weren't unusual. I used to do 70m in caves fairly regularly too, if anything I found it easier than a wreck. I didn't do it because I liked being narced, I did it because helium wasn't readily accessible. Air or not diving were the only options and the risk was acceptable.

I wasn't under any illusions that I was adapting to narcosis but I was diving enough that I was able to develop a reasonable level of narced skill. I remember having to do a shutdown for real at 75m and it wasn't overly taxing. That was about my limit though, beyond 80m was a real struggle and my last "real" deep dive was 89m where I really felt like I was blacking out.

Since getting a rebreather I use helium even in the shallows. If I'm diving OC then I'll still do 40-50m on air but that's pretty rare now (usually something like the Rondo where it falls in a weekend of shallow diving). Diving has moved on and, certainly for the UK deep air seems a bit pointless.

scubadogct
24-03-2013, 10:36 AM
Deep air is daft. Despite what people say, you can't build up a tolerance. You can build up some regular routines that you can do narked,and build up a run of luck that you mistake for not being affected by narcosis.

The problem is, you get away with it. Until you don't. Then something goes wrong, you try to cope with a fogged brain and go spiralling off into the incident pit. And however dived up you think you are, if something unexpected happens you will discover you are narked.

Deep air is not big or clever. If can lead to a world of pain for you, or if it goes really wrong, those left behind. I wish I didn't know that.

That sums up my undertanding based on my limited experience.

Mark Chase
24-03-2013, 02:12 PM
I have done a fair few deep air dives and would still happily dive 50-60m in clear blue water. I have done 70 but it felt like I was pushing it where as 50-60 just felt like a dive.

UK I have been narked out of my skull at 45 and felt narked at 30 all because conditions and stress levels were an order of magnitude higher than they were in the warm blue stuff.

I dive CCR so now its prety unlikley ill be diving anything less than 21/35 even on shalow dives. CCR just makes the cost of He negligable.

I have shot video at 65m on air on a CCR and on OC and the footage was steady and good. I can recall detail about prety much all the deep air dives I have done but I can also remember blacking out at arround 60m and coming too at arround 40m hugging a rock after i chased down a buddy i thaught was going to kill himself. Thts the problem with deep air. Once things go a bit wrong, they become badly wrong quickly which promots yet more stress and more narcosis.



As for enjoying deep air? Youd have to be some sort of nutcase to prefer deep air over trimix. Trimix diving is 100X better than deep air to the same depth. I only ever dive deep air if I am forced too because i cant get the gas I need to do the dive properly.

Allan Carr
24-03-2013, 04:25 PM
Years ago, I used to do a lot of deep air - 50-60M was quite common but we always used to work up to these depths and would never do it as a one-off. I didn't feel especially narked but when I did 70M I was very aware of of narcosis. I was using a Drager depth gauge which went to 250 feet by doing one and a quarter revolutions. I remember looking at it reading 30 feet and thinking that I had to be deeper than that because it had taken a long time to get down there.

However, the only reason I was doing deep air was because trimix wasn't available in those days.If I was still doing deep diving, it would be on trimix. Why take risks when there are safer alternatives?

Shaw-Tek
24-03-2013, 04:47 PM
Deep air diving is a bit like drink driving. Yes you'll get away with it but when the unexpected happens it will bite you in the ass.

notdeadyet
24-03-2013, 04:55 PM
I was using a Drager depth gauge which went to 250 feet by doing one and a quarter revolutions. I remember looking at it reading 30 feet and thinking that I had to be deeper than that because it had taken a long time to get down there.

I've still got one of the Scubapro/SOS 500ft depth gauges that did the same, two revolutions of the dial, that I use as a back-up to my computer. I've done exactly the same and misread the gauge... Trouble is I was on mix at the time :D

Baron015
24-03-2013, 07:17 PM
A lot of people have dived the wrecks of Bikini Atoll (max depth 55m) on twinsets of air with Nitrox 80 for deco. When I told Fabio Amaral that when I wrote the story for that mag. readers might write to say we should have been using trimix, he said, "Tell them we don't want them here!"
It's a long way to go to sit on the beach.

How so ? I dived those wrecks on trimix last year. There was no one called Fabio pitching up to tell us we weren't wanted. In fact there was pretty much no one there at all. The only Bikinian I met was called Edward. He was using tmx 16/45 like everyone else.

Tb.

Nitnab Nhoj
25-03-2013, 08:16 AM
How so ? I dived those wrecks on trimix last year. There was no one called Fabio pitching up to tell us we weren't wanted. In fact there was pretty much no one there at all. The only Bikinian I met was called Edward. He was using tmx 16/45 like everyone else.

Tb.

Edward knows Fabio really well. He used to work for Bikini Atoll Divers with Fabio who set up the diving there under the auspices of Tom Mount. They were based on the Atoll. Unfortunately, when Air Marshall Islands went out of business the regular weekly dive trips stopped. You probably went on a one-off trip with Peter Measley. Here's a picture I took of Edward:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32248864/MarshallIReefSharks2.jpg

Tom Mount introduced Edward to decompressing on Nitrox 80. Around 20 divers a week went there over a long period (probably ten years). Wrecked and gone to heaven - Divernet (http://www.divernet.com/Travel_Features/pacific/420739/wrecked_and_gone_to_heaven.html)

MattD
25-03-2013, 08:46 AM
Two interesting points and I feel both are essentially right.

Not sure what you class as deep air but in my younger days I used to do a lot of deepish air diving down to 70m along with a regular team and some of the lads did 100m air dives. Personally I always cosidered 65m as the 'sensible limit' of deep air. We took our diving very seriously and were in many respects of a GUE mindset when it came to kit standardisation and diving practice. We could mix and match buddies and all ran the same deco profiles and kit configuration down to a standard suit inflation nipple so we could grab anyone else's kit and jump in if needed and there was little need to run over how your kit was configured in buddy checks as it was all the same.

At the time I was doing anywhere between 100 and 300 dives a year and still needed to maintain 'narcosis tolerance'. In my experience 'narcosis tolerance' depends on the amount of diving being done at the time, the individual concerned and some other factor I suspected was in your head (people always feel more narked on dark, gloomy dives in poor vis). My own view is that the reality of narcosis tolerance is the ability to function while narked, much like an alcoholic can drink a bottle of gin and still function (as a side note I also remember we all suffered to some degree from a loss of short term memory while regularly diving deep air). In order to maintain that ability to function I needed to do a 50m+ dive at least once a fortnight (or else it was back to build up dives) and practice, practice, practice until all forseeable 'what if' required actions could be performed without thinking before doing any 'proper diving' on deep offshore sites. Luckily we all lived within a couple of hours of Dot at the time and had chance to practice in sheltered deep water.

I now only average around 50 dives a year and feel I would die if I tried to do the same dives now. I still dive deep wrecks but in some respects feel less comfortable with a 60m or 70m wreck on CC trimix than I did on air because I realise I just don't dive often enough nowadays to keep at the top of the game. Most of my old dive buddies (even the 100m boys) won't now dive beyond 40m for the same reason. I've done a couple of thousand or so dives in my time and hundreds below 50m on air, a couple of years ago I did a 50m+ air dive in the red sea (the first OC deep air dive I had done for about 3 years and I built up to it over about 5 or 6 dives) and whilst I could function, I was surprised at how uncomfortable and narked I felt. I subsequently pulled back the depth for the rest of the trip.

Deep air diving needs to be taken very seriously but so does gas diving and rebreathers. Jumping in for a 60m+ dive once or twice a year is not very clever at all no matter how experienced you are or what you are breathing.

Great post, you clearly have had a long and interesting dive career so far!

I did a bit of deep air diving back in the day, and that third "In your head" element was the tricky one for me. (But max 60m on air, not 70m) No matter how well dived up I was, deeper than 50m in the UK; if there was less than 2-3m of viz and a bit of current, I would really struggle to enjoy myself. Regardless of breathing mix, no matter how many dives I've done, I just don't like zero viz deep dives on wrecks. Very early in my career I (I think I was 19) we dived in zero viz on a wreck, and my buddy got caught in line/net. The confusion and time used to cut him out was really nasty, but we were only at 18m and had time for it. I think that episode stayed with me, and I don't like the feeling of not being able to see if there is line, or if I am going into a wreck by accident. Combine those conditions with over 50m on air, and I am way outside my comfort zone.

So for me, the "Good dives" deep on air were fantastic. The "Bad dives" scared the crap out of me, not because I actually had a f**k up, but because the conditions made me constantly wonder if something bad was going to bite me in the arse.

Then I moved to Norway in 2001 and the 0m viz dives to 55m in the channel were history.... :)

Nitnab Nhoj
25-03-2013, 08:59 AM
I know someone who is out of his head at 10m deep. I joke that he gets narked when he sees a road sign for Selsey! It's different strokes for different folks. As I already said, some people are not cut out for diving whatsoever, on any gas, but should they be stopped? Are there ever accidents at Stoney Cove?

smudger
25-03-2013, 09:41 AM
Have dived deep air, there was limited choice when you consider that there was no alternative then it was not like or dislike. Todays world little bit different with trimix easily available that would now be my choice, however I have still dived deep air abroad on live aboards when not available.
Poeple who know me and knew my father know why we did deep air. Safe probably not however doing something he enjoyed and the benifits were amazing.
It does not mean I like deep air, its a pragmatic choice if trimix is available and you have the quals you should be diving trimix as it is the safer option nowadays if you dont have trimix apart for some very seasoned divers you probably should be questioning going to those depths?

The arguments about the practice of deep air though?
A WW1 plane is less safe than a modern equivelent however poeple still fly them so maybe its about understanding the dangers before you enter the water and a vote for freedom of choice?

MattD
25-03-2013, 10:08 AM
Have dived deep air, there was limited choice when you consider that there was no alternative then it was not like or dislike. Todays world little bit different with trimix easily available that would now be my choice, however I have still dived deep air abroad on live aboards when not available.
Poeple who know me and knew my father know why we did deep air. Safe probably not however doing something he enjoyed and the benifits were amazing.
It does not mean I like deep air, its a pragmatic choice if trimix is available and you have the quals you should be diving trimix as it is the safer option nowadays if you dont have trimix apart for some very seasoned divers you probably should be questioning going to those depths?

The arguments about the practice of deep air though?
A WW1 plane is less safe than a modern equivelent however poeple still fly them so maybe its about understanding the dangers before you enter the water and a vote for freedom of choice?

Freedom of choice is very important. When I learned to dive (As per the avatar picture) I was 11 years old, and back then we had 1 DV and no contents gauge. Just before we hit 50bar the DV would get tight and then we pulled the reserve valve and surfaced on the remaining air. Some 5 years later I was in a pool with BSAC instructors doing a "Proper course" (Novice I) and they showed me a contents guage for the first time.

Whilst yes, I performed OW dives without one previously, and it was my choice to do so, I distinctly remember thinking. "Cool! I like that." I also thought the same when I first used an AAS, instead of Buddy Breathing. Later in 99 when I dived a wreck called Mexico on Trimix for the first time, I went down to the bottom (about 55m I think) and looked up at the lovely wreck and thought "Cool! I like that too!"

So often with freedom of choice you are limited to the choices you have at that time. Would I let my 9 year old dive without a BCD and SPG? No, I wouldn't. With Trimix, just as you say the option is there and available, and often it's the best one. But there will always be a place for diving deeper on air, it's just that some of us choose not to any more. I'm not sure I agree with BJ's conclusion that this means I, and others that quit deep air are not made of the "Right Stuff". But then I don't pretend to be a diving guru, I just really love to dive, and scaring the shit out of myself has become less tempting after the kids arrived, and to be honest, it wasn't that fun before then either.

We don't all have to be Sheck Exley in order to be able to perform safe and enjoyable dives. So whilst there are some divers who appear to be less than well prepared for their sport, don't rule out the cautious types as equally less well suited to the sport.

smudger
25-03-2013, 10:30 AM
Freedom of choice is very important. When I learned to dive (As per the avatar picture) I was 11 years old, and back then we had 1 DV and no contents gauge. Just before we hit 50bar the DV would get tight and then we pulled the reserve valve and surfaced on the remaining air. Some 5 years later I was in a pool with BSAC instructors doing a "Proper course" (Novice I) and they showed me a contents guage for the first time.

Whilst yes, I performed OW dives without one previously, and it was my choice to do so, I distinctly remember thinking. "Cool! I like that." I also thought the same when I first used an AAS, instead of Buddy Breathing. Later in 99 when I dived a wreck called Mexico on Trimix for the first time, I went down to the bottom (about 55m I think) and looked up at the lovely wreck and thought "Cool! I like that too!"

So often with freedom of choice you are limited to the choices you have at that time. Would I let my 9 year old dive without a BCD and SPG? No, I wouldn't. With Trimix, just as you say the option is there and available, and often it's the best one. But there will always be a place for diving deeper on air, it's just that some of us choose not to any more. I'm not sure I agree with BJ's conclusion that this means I, and others that quit deep air are not made of the "Right Stuff". But then I don't pretend to be a diving guru, I just really love to dive, and scaring the shit out of myself has become less tempting after the kids arrived, and to be honest, it wasn't that fun before then either.

We don't all have to be Sheck Exley in order to be able to perform safe and enjoyable dives. So whilst there are some divers who appear to be less than well prepared for their sport, don't rule out the cautious types as equally less well suited to the sport.

Yes My 1st dive was much like yours something cobbled together cylinder from WW2 boyancy control was an oral inflation life jacket from some airline I think? yes that is take out DV and blow in tube. Joined BSAC got a shiney buddy Arctic (liked that!) and even got the slimeline model a sherwood DV with Icing Plate. If people have never seen one don't put your toungue on the plate it does stick! A wet suit which was made at home from my mums old suit (that was intresting as body shape was still wrong) a full set of clothes under it stopped some of the flushing.
Up graded my cylinder to a 180bar which I am sure was about 7lt pillar valve which I serviced and I had to learn to strip rebuild to this day not really sure why so in depth but as a kid it was fun!
I think when I joined 1 club member managed to get a dry suit with ankle seals and wet suit boots and a toggle dump.
So safe is relative I had to remove and replace all my kit and get heaviest members of the club out of the water before they would even consider me going in the sea.
Yes less people dived as the training was hard but that reflects the kits available nowadays the training is different and the kit more reliable but lets not forget how many wrecks were discovered and all on air so deep air has its place but trimix is better.
Slating divers who have done deep air is a bit like saying some one driving an e type jag at 100mph on the M1 was stupind they should have used the most modern equivelent cause its safer?

Ainsley
25-03-2013, 12:45 PM
Ive done a lot of air dives to 65-70m. All of them in warm clear water - so they felt fine.
I quite enjoy the feeling of being narc'ed.
I never felt worried or scared or panicked, just very relaxed and comfy.

The only issue I had was not remembering the dive much afterwards, which was a shame. If the conditions added more risk then I would dive shallower. If helium was available Id go Tmx.
But in a clear warm non buddy uncomplicated dive Ive no problem going up to an O2 PP of 1.6.

Understand the risks, take the risks your happy with. You have to make up your own mind. But I did like the feeling.

Mark Chase
25-03-2013, 01:54 PM
MattD's post striks a chord with me

I remember back in 2002 getting the piss ripped out of me for diving trimix on the Moldavia (45-50m)

The attitude then was one that trimix was dangerous and using it on shuch shalow dives was proof positive that i wasn't cut out to be a deep diver. "A crutch to suport a lack of abuility" I was told.

Some weeks before id scared my self stupid on the same wreck in low viz cold water conditions. Very narked and with thaughts only of impending doom I did about 12mins on the bottom before (having lost my buddy) I ended up going up alone. I have never dived it on air since.

Prior to finding a local garage fill man, i'd had to do over 120miles driving round trip to get hold of trimix. It was rare as heans teath. It didnt help that i didnt have a cert card for mix. Fortunatly thers no photoes on TDI cards and a I spent a while having to lern to react properly when being called "George" :D


But far from moaning about having to drive massive distance for a fill, I can tell you that prior to 2000 i couldent get hold of mix anywhere. I didnt know any one who dived it and I had no idea how to plan a dive for it even if i did.

My early trimix dives were dived on air tables with 75% for deco

Eventualy I started using DOSS based Proplanner and around 2003 I think, I baught my first VR3

Now everyone dives mix and going below 30 without it is seen as wreckless by some.

But lets not forget that this attitude is a very recent thing.

JB is an old fart. Even older than me which is saying something :D So hiss attitude needs to be viewed from the historical perspective and with a view to the fact old farts dont like new fangled ideas much ;)


ATB

Mark

Nitnab Nhoj
25-03-2013, 03:07 PM
Now everyone dives mix and going below 30 without it is seen as wreckless by some.

But lets not forget that this attitude is a very recent thing.

JB is an old fart. Even older than me which is saying something :D So hiss attitude needs to be viewed from the historical perspective and with a view to the fact old farts dont like new fangled ideas much ;)


ATB

Mark


I wouldn't want to do wreckless dives in Truk Lagoon!

However, I think I was diving trimix before Mark. It's just that it is not necessarily available everywhere. It wasn't in Bikini Atoll whenever I went there. So you have to make a judgement. I rarely dive in the UK nowadays because I get plenty of opportunity to dive elsewhere. Co-incidentally, I am just speaking to Jim Breakell who ran trips there and we have counted 48,000 man dives on air at Bikini Atoll at 55m without any accidents!

Diving Dude
25-03-2013, 03:40 PM
What really brought it home to me that deep air wasn't much fun was a couple of dives on that 80 mtr wreck on the brothers. My buddy and l only went to about 55mtrs, dive one, gentle descent down, absolutely stunning brilliant dive. Dive 2, the plan was because we'd had a good dive in the morning we would go in the engine room.
We got dropped off just past the wreck and had to fin vigorously to get to the wreck then we descended got to the engine room, didn't know what time of day it was so did the sensible thing and went in the engine room, feckin stoopid or what.

Stevie H
25-03-2013, 03:59 PM
Edward knows Fabio really well. He used to work for Bikini Atoll Divers with Fabio who set up the diving there under the auspices of Tom Mount. They were based on the Atoll. Unfortunately, when Air Marshall Islands went out of business the regular weekly dive trips stopped. You probably went on a one-off trip with Peter Measley. Here's a picture I took of Edward:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32248864/MarshallIReefSharks2.jpg

Tom Mount introduced Edward to decompressing on Nitrox 80. Around 20 divers a week went there over a long period (probably ten years). Wrecked and gone to heaven - Divernet (http://www.divernet.com/Travel_Features/pacific/420739/wrecked_and_gone_to_heaven.html)

I hope you had a go at this Edward just like you did with the guys shark fishing under your boat in the Red Sea and are trying to stop people going diving with him!!!

Ask them to stop fishing in the Egyptian Marine Parks. (http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/surface-interval/213415-ask-them-stop-fishing-egyptian-marine-parks.html)

Nitnab Nhoj
25-03-2013, 04:02 PM
I hope you had a go at this Edward just like you did with the guys shark fishing under your boat in the Red Sea and are trying to stop people going diving with him!!!

What do you think he was doing? Don't jump to the wrong conclusion! Maybe you'd better get on to the Shark Lab and Sonny Gruber's Shark Research Institute! They are often seen lifting sharks out of the water!

cotochris
25-03-2013, 04:05 PM
I suppose it is all relative. I like going down to 40-50m and I do it on air. I only go past 40m in rare situations.

Is this the right place saying that I went down to 48m on 12l and still came up with plenty of air after 45min (it wasn't 45min at 48m obviously! :) - It was a Pinnacle and I saw my first and ever turtle when diving.

Stevie H
25-03-2013, 04:11 PM
What do you think he was doing? Don't jump to the wrong conclusion! Maybe you'd better get on to the Shark Lab and Sonny Gruber's Shark Research Institute! They are often seen lifting sharks out of the water!

Never seen one yanked out of the water like that, usually brought up gently in some sort of stretcher!

Nitnab Nhoj
25-03-2013, 04:27 PM
Never seen one yanked out of the water like that, usually brought up gently in some sort of stretcher!

They use a hook and line at the Shark Lab.

divedaz
26-03-2013, 08:17 AM
Define deep air diving first. What is deep?

'Deep' will vary from person to person. Does an individual know their own depth limit?

I am currently reading Mark Ellyatts book "ocean gladiator", so thats kinda why i posted this.

I personally don't think there is not anything wrong with 'pushing the bounderies'.

I have done lots of deep air dives beyond 75meters in this country and in the redsea.
I have corrected white balance whilst doing video in this country at 68meters doing an airdive.

I am trimix certified and love a squirt of He whilst diving beyond 55meters.

My first deep air dive was in the early 90's in wastwater, 70meters. i had twin 10's unmanifolded on a buddy commando.

Allan Carr
26-03-2013, 10:21 AM
Back in the 60's and 70's, my buddies and I were regularly diving to 50M+ on air, initially using valves with no AAS. There have been several comments about divers doing this are living on borrowed time but I can't remember anyone having an incident of any consequence. Is it because we were more careful not to get ourselves into unnecessarily risky situations? I do find that there are more gung-ho divers these days - 'We've got the backup equipment and we've practised the drills so we're bullet-proof' type attitude. We knew we were taking risks and were always watchful for things going wrong. I remember canning one dive at 35M on the way to a planned 55M when I wasn't happy with the breathing performance of a valve I was using. There was no criticism from my buddy - you accepted that if things weren't right, you didn't risk it.

My first dive on the Markgraf at Scapa (when I caught a lobster at 48M) was on a single 12l of air. Just because I've done it safely in the past doesn't mean that I'd choose to do it again now given that trimix is more generally available but it doesn't mean that deep air is necessarily suicidal, just more risky and it makes sense to minimise risk where possible. However, I wouldn't shy away from a spectacular deep dive on air just because trimix wasn't available provided that I prepared properly beforehand - depth progression etc. What would hold me back would be the weight of the cylinders on my poor knackered back but that's another story.

divedaz
26-03-2013, 11:17 AM
Back in the 60's and 70's, my buddies and I were regularly diving to 50M+ on air, initially using valves with no AAS.

And we were taught to air share with no aas, as we did not have one, assisted air share from 35mtr was the norm on our course. Now you have to have one with a 2mtr hose.

Markgraf on a single 12L, cool, did that in 91', down to the guns and along, into the boilerHouse to steal the brass plate from the front of one of the boilers.

Redaing the Mark Ellyatt book, he describes how he went from using trimix to air at 100meters and getting serious tunnel vision from it, this did not clear untill he was back up to 30ish meters.

MikeF
26-03-2013, 11:44 AM
You need to be seriously dived up for deep air diving but if you are, and it floats your boat, I'll not knock anyone for still doing it. It's probably only 6 or 7 years ago I did some stunning dives on air on the Leonatus and Anglo Dane while up in Shetland.

I worry more about the people who have done nothing but holiday diving and then decide to become a 'techie' and go out and do course after course and are doing 100m CC trimix dives a year later and think they are safe because they have all done all the courses and are breathing some magic gas. Or the guys that book on a Malin Head trip and have never actually dived a 70m wreck in UK water conditions before.

However here's another thorny issue to ponder. I've just tried to buy a J of Helium only to be told Air Liquide can't tell me when they will be able to supply any. What are people going to when their local shop can't get any helium? I wonder if deep air is set for a comeback? If so I can't help but think I'd rather dive deep OC air than dive deep with air dil in my rebreather.

mike

PS air share at 35m pah, we used to regularly air share at 60m in Dot while waiting for the ice to melt after shutting off a free flowing reg, it would be interesting to see how many young'ns (or old'ns for that matter) would feel comfortable doing that nowadays.

divedaz
26-03-2013, 12:33 PM
air share at 35m pah, we used to regularly air share at 60m in Dot while waiting for the ice to melt after shutting off a free flowing reg, it would be interesting to see how many young'ns (or old'ns for that matter) would feel comfortable doing that nowadays.

Nitnab Nhoj
26-03-2013, 12:48 PM
The great thing about suffering nitrogen narcosis is that you can turn it off by ascending sufficiently - unlike when you've got a gut full of alcohol. I wouldn't suggest anyone dived deep on any gas without working up to it and that includes to 30m.

Baron015
28-03-2013, 10:31 AM
What do you think he was doing? Don't jump to the wrong conclusion! Maybe you'd better get on to the Shark Lab and Sonny Gruber's Shark Research Institute! They are often seen lifting sharks out of the water!

Classic shark wrestling from Edward. Love it.

iamyourgasman
28-03-2013, 11:00 AM
My deepest air dive was feeble 42m, but I didn't like the narced feeling at all. It was in the Med, with good viz. On my AN+DP course I was VERY narked at 43m on EAN 25. That made me do the trimix course. Never looked back.

Leigh G
28-03-2013, 09:26 PM
Ive done a lot of air dives to 65-70m. All of them in warm clear water - so they felt fine.
I quite enjoy the feeling of being narc'ed.
I never felt worried or scared or panicked, just very relaxed and comfy.

The only issue I had was not remembering the dive much afterwards, which was a shame. If the conditions added more risk then I would dive shallower. If helium was available Id go Tmx.
But in a clear warm non buddy uncomplicated dive Ive no problem going up to an O2 PP of 1.6.

Understand the risks, take the risks your happy with. You have to make up your own mind. But I did like the feeling.



LOL! I still have Cedric's slate, you know, the one written in French.............:rolleyes:

Chris Grosart
29-03-2013, 01:19 PM
I'm fascinated by this thread.
I'm wondering why the emphasis is on nitrogen narcosis and its effects (perhaps linked closely to the OP question) - but yet nobody has mentioned or considered effects of the gas density at depth.
Having listened to Professor Simon Mitchell at the Global Diving Conference in Kiel 2011 on this subject, never before have I been more convinced of the dangers of breathing a dense gas at depth.
I can't remember the exact figures but the conclusion pointed to narcosis being not much more of an issue at 40m than at 30m - but beyond 40m became a steep curve of an issue.
But - and this was a serious wake up call of a 'but' - In terms of gas density, the level of work of breathing beyond 30m on a dense gas and the strain it puts the body under - this resulting in CO2 build up which, combined with narcosis can be lethal in terms of a divers capacity, was actually so alarming, I vowed never to dive air deeper than 30m again.
It reassured me that the agency I was training with at the time hadn't just plucked a safe PO2 limit - or 'safe' deemed narcosis limit out of the air - but had actually looked into the physiology of the diver and the effects of gas density and CO2 - hence we dive nitrox to 30m and a standard appropriate trimix below that.

gobfish1
29-03-2013, 01:27 PM
I'm fascinated by this thread.
I'm wondering why the emphasis is on nitrogen narcosis and its effects (perhaps linked closely to the OP question) - but yet nobody has mentioned or considered effects of the gas density at depth.
Having listened to Professor Simon Mitchell at the Global Diving Conference in Kiel 2011 on this subject, never before have I been more convinced of the dangers of breathing a dense gas at depth.
I can't remember the exact figures but the conclusion pointed to narcosis being not much more of an issue at 40m than at 30m - but beyond 40m became a steep curve of an issue.
But - and this was a serious wake up call of a 'but' - In terms of gas density, the level of work of breathing beyond 30m on a dense gas and the strain it puts the body under - this resulting in CO2 build up which, combined with narcosis can be lethal in terms of a divers capacity, was actually so alarming, I vowed never to dive air deeper than 30m again.
It reassured me that the agency I was training with at the time hadn't just plucked a safe PO2 limit - or 'safe' deemed narcosis limit out of the air - but had actually looked into the physiology of the diver and the effects of gas density and CO2 - hence we dive nitrox to 30m and a standard appropriate trimix below that.

good for you , :whew:

balbrigganbloke
15-04-2013, 09:27 PM
Ive dived 65+mts on air and it wasnt nice it was like being in a disco with strobes going off everywhere
I will go to shallow 50s on air if theres no He available
Beyond that itll be trimix
I wouldnt be going back to deep air unless i had to!

Ken Hawk
16-04-2013, 06:16 PM
Ive dived 65+mts on air and it wasnt nice it was like being in a disco with strobes going off everywhere
I will go to shallow 50s on air if theres no He available
Beyond that itll be trimix
I wouldnt be going back to deep air unless i had to!

I would go GUE if I was you.
I have seen you at 50 on air :D

Scuba steve
16-04-2013, 06:50 PM
I would go GUE if I was you.
I have seen you at 50 on air :D
Balbriggan bloke is DIR . He that big I doubt anyone would argue with him so Dave Is Right :-)

Ken Hawk
16-04-2013, 07:09 PM
Balbriggan bloke is DIR . He that big I doubt anyone would argue with him so Dave Is Right :-)

He is a pussy cat really :D

Scuba steve
17-04-2013, 09:17 AM
Cross him . I double dare ya ;-)

Ken Hawk
17-04-2013, 06:07 PM
Cross him . I double dare ya ;-)

Bugger that he is my minder :D

bletso
17-04-2013, 07:29 PM
I don't even like 30 MSW on air, but I use a breather, mix is always an option.