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Simon TW
17-03-2013, 06:49 AM
I'm not sure if this is posted in the right place so Mods please feel free to move it.

I was reading this the other day and it made me think

Ukraine requests inquest into death of actress in Hurghada | Egypt Independent (http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/ukraine-requests-inquest-death-actress-hurghada)

Many of us only read the small print on our insurance when we claim. Now when it's a broken windscreen or some dive kit been stolen that's okay. If it's not covered you'll be pissed off but you'll get over it.

One of things that I've always been good at is reading the small print before I take the policy out but a million years ago I worked for an insurance company and I know how they work when presented with any claim. The aim is to avoid paying. If it's a big claim then a loss adjuster is appointed who is a specialist in looking for ways to avoid or reduce the value of the claim.

Now all of this is well and good but when it comes to travel insurance, diving or medical insurance you may not be in a fit state to argue. The woman above died because she didn't know that she would be excluded if she was driving a buggy in the desert.

Years ago I knew a chap who had a really fantastic pub, the place was packed out and his concept worked. He was well off and had all of the trimmings. Then his son went on holiday and had a crash on a rented moped. He suffered a fractured skull and was in a coma on life support. His holiday insurance didn't cover him and the family were borrowing money of everyone and selling possessions at a fraction of there value. It was only a matter of months until they had nothing left.

There was a case a few years ago of a chap who ended up in a chamber and the insurance were not willing to pay as he had dived beyond his certification. I remember we had a whip around for him.

I'm insured with Dan, they're happy for me to dive to 130 meters but beyond that I have to submit a dive plan for approval. However I was reading the small print on my recently renewed policy and it also says not to exceed PPO2s and PPN2s.

This made me think about all of the guys out here in Egypt with their Dan Insurance thinking that they are covered. If you've been to the props on the Rosalie Moller diving air then you've just made your insurance void.

It's also the case with tech diving, You may have the cert to go deep but keep the PPN2 down.

Before you travel, read your policy. Keep a copy of your insurance where somebody else can find it.

GLOC
17-03-2013, 07:38 AM
Simon,

Thanks for this timely reminder before the 'season' really kicks off. I will now go and dig out my DAN paperwork to find out what the pO2 and pN2 are!!

The examples of insurance companies not paying out on a 'technicality' are legion. One which has come up a couple of times but is sometimes not recognised by a large number of people, without a body some insurance companies will not pay out for 7 years which can be a major issue if the diver is the breadwinner in the family. No insurance payout and no income...

Maybe a morbid example of why buddy diving can be useful - bring the body back?

Regards

Simon TW
17-03-2013, 08:08 AM
Simon,

Thanks for this timely reminder before the 'season' really kicks off. I will now go and dig out my DAN paperwork to find out what the pO2 and pN2 are!!

The examples of insurance companies not paying out on a 'technicality' are legion. One which has come up a couple of times but is sometimes not recognised by a large number of people, without a body some insurance companies will not pay out for 7 years which can be a major issue if the diver is the breadwinner in the family. No insurance payout and no income...

Maybe a morbid example of why buddy diving can be useful - bring the body back?

Regards

Yes I am aware of one person who was quite famous in some circles and he went missing on a dive, never to be found. No insurance for 7 years.

Now just imagine if you've a family and a mortgage. The family can't afford the mortgage and can't sell the house either. I suppose there may be a legal way but it's not going to be easy or cheap.


I've just had a look

DAN Europe - depth limits (http://www.daneurope.org/web/guest/depth-limits)

Compressed Air and Nitrox. 40 meter max (only for DAN Sport Bronze).

Recreational Diving

Recreational Diving means all snorkelling, and recreational Diving Activities carried out by the Insured as stated in the Schedule or Certificate attached to this Policy with or without breathing apparatus whether as a student or not including:
• Compressed air diving in any form
• Enriched air “nitrox” diving with fixed percentages with an open circuit or a “rebreather”
• The use of oxygen enriched air or of oxygen to maximize decompression safety
• The use of normoxic “Trimix” mixtures at depths less than 50m to minimize the narcotic effects of compressed air.

DAN Europe recommends gas partial pressures up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 5,6ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture.



Technical Diving

Technical Diving means dives conducted with the use of variable gas mixtures (Nitrogen-Helium-Oxygen otherwise called Trimix or Helium – Oxygen otherwise called Heliox) up to depths not exceeding 130 metres and/or gas partial pressures of 1,4 ATA Oxygen or up to a maximum of 1,6ATA Oxygen and 3,95ATA Nitrogen in the breathing mixture, and provided that any other relevant local laws and regulations are respected. On written submission of a full dive profile and proposed safety and support measures insurers may consider providing specific per dive insurance for any dive exceeding 130 metres.

Simon TW
17-03-2013, 08:16 AM
grrrrr

Zubar
17-03-2013, 08:23 AM
Does that mean tech is over 50m?

GLOC
17-03-2013, 08:25 AM
Does that mean tech is over 50m?

As far as DAN is concerned, Tech diving is as per their definition above, no-one else's.


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Ian_6301
17-03-2013, 10:26 AM
As far as DAN is concerned, Tech diving is as per their definition above, no-one else's.


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...All of which seems fair enough to me!

Mark Rowe
17-03-2013, 11:05 AM
Does that mean tech is over 50m?

Ppn2 max of 3.95 = 5 bar ATA = 40m therefore max END is 40m

Deep air diving is out below 40m it seems for DAN - quite an eye opener when you realise most of use are happy on deep air.
Going to get a squirt of HE in the future and makes me look differently at the max depth dives on training courses for SSI TXR and PADI TecRec that I can deliver.

Safe diving
Mark

thetrickster
17-03-2013, 11:22 AM
Renewing my DAN insurance this week. Thanks for this info.


Regards

Rich.

Jon Lavin
17-03-2013, 12:24 PM
Ppn2 max of 3.95 = 5 bar ATA = 40m therefore max END is 40m

Deep air diving is out below 40m it seems for DAN - quite an eye opener when you realise most of use are happy on deep air.
Going to get a squirt of HE in the future and makes me look differently at the max depth dives on training courses for SSI TXR and PADI TecRec that I can deliver.

Safe diving
Mark

Thats not how i read it.
Recreational diving, PPn2 not recomended to exceed 5.6 ATA. If you happened to be on air on 50m your PPN2 would be somewhere around 4.74 ATA....wouldn't it?

EDIT - just saw the bit about 40m max depth for recreational.

So.....as 'technical' covers mixed gas to 130m and recreational covers r/nitrox to 40m where does the deep air diving segemtn sit? Not that i have a horse in this race as i dont dive air to those depths, just would be interested to know...

Zubar
17-03-2013, 12:35 PM
Thanks. That means that those diving to the limits of ART say, don't need to upgrade their insurance. But would not be far off, given DAN is fairly priced though, it may well be worth covering a little more.

Thanks to the OP.

C

MisterB
17-03-2013, 12:49 PM
40m limit only applies to recreational under DAN Sport Bronze. Sport Silver appears to have no corresponding recreational depth limit, therefore by my reading the PPN2 kicks in as the limit.

DAN Europe - Sport Member (http://www.daneurope.org/web/guest/sport-member)

Mark Rowe
17-03-2013, 02:11 PM
Thats not how i read it.
Recreational diving, PPn2 not recomended to exceed 5.6 ATA. If you happened to be on air on 50m your PPN2 would be somewhere around 4.74 ATA....wouldn't it?

EDIT - just saw the bit about 40m max depth for recreational.

So.....as 'technical' covers mixed gas to 130m and recreational covers r/nitrox to 40m where does the deep air diving segemtn sit? Not that i have a horse in this race as i dont dive air to those depths, just would be interested to know...

Hi Jon

My understanding is those courses that are in the 40m - 50m range, SSI extended range, TDI extended range or Padi TecRec 45/50 would all fall into this range of diving on air as a technical dive but beyond the PPn 3.95 ATA that DAN imposes.
Therefore the air depth max is 40m without a bit of HE in the mix. Basically a 40m END maximum.

SSI and PADI have an option to do the final dives on a trimix mix which now would seem to be the recommendation, if I was diving / teaching in UK then less of an issue perhaps but abroad where I rely upon my insurance things might have to change.

Jon Lavin
17-03-2013, 05:16 PM
Hi Jon

My understanding is those courses that are in the 40m - 50m range, SSI extended range, TDI extended range or Padi TecRec 45/50 would all fall into this range of diving on air as a technical dive but beyond the PPn 3.95 ATA that DAN imposes.
Therefore the air depth max is 40m without a bit of HE in the mix. Basically a 40m END maximum.

SSI and PADI have an option to do the final dives on a trimix mix which now would seem to be the recommendation, if I was diving / teaching in UK then less of an issue perhaps but abroad where I rely upon my insurance things might have to change.

Thanks - appreciate it.

dlk
19-04-2013, 12:07 PM
Hi Jon

My understanding is those courses that are in the 40m - 50m range, SSI extended range, TDI extended range or Padi TecRec 45/50 would all fall into this range of diving on air as a technical dive but beyond the PPn 3.95 ATA that DAN imposes.
Therefore the air depth max is 40m without a bit of HE in the mix. Basically a 40m END maximum.

I read differently, and that they fall under DAN's definition of recreational diving (a subset of their definition of technical diving), and therefore subject to a "recommended" max of 5.6 ppN2.



SSI and PADI have an option to do the final dives on a trimix mix which now would seem to be the recommendation, if I was diving / teaching in UK then less of an issue perhaps but abroad where I rely upon my insurance things might have to change.

Just to expand on this for people, PADI tec45/tec50 are not trimix courses.
Under certain conditions there is a possibility of using a limited tmx, but only during the final dive of the tec50 course itself (not tec45). This does not earn a tmx qualification, but both tec45 and tec50 can be extended to limited tmx (tmx45 / tmx50) with further instruction and a couple of additional dives... these, too, fall under DAN's definition of recreational diving).

HTH,

DLK

GLOC
19-04-2013, 01:50 PM
Speak to DAN....


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JPTaylor
19-04-2013, 03:03 PM
DAN do cover use of trimix shallower than 50m

dlk
19-04-2013, 03:40 PM
DAN do cover use of trimix shallower than 50m

Yes. And they class it under recreational diving.

To clarify, the issue was whether they cover "deep air", i.e., ppN2 > 3.95. They do.

dlk
19-04-2013, 03:41 PM
Speak to DAN....


About what? Their position is clear.

GLOC
19-04-2013, 03:57 PM
About what? Their position is clear.

But you used the phrase, "I read it differently" which infers that there might be more than one interpretation of the wording. If you are worried about whether you are adequately covered, the only people to definitively confirm that position is the insurance company and their underwriters. Hence why I said, speak to DAN.

Regards

dlk
19-04-2013, 04:22 PM
But you used the phrase, "I read it differently" which infers that there might be more than one interpretation of the wording. If you are worried about whether you are adequately covered, the only people to definitively confirm that position is the insurance company and their underwriters. Hence why I said, speak to DAN.

Regards

Oh, right, thanks. There isn't, and I'm not.

There is a related gotcha with Dive Master Insurance (IDEC) though. Their policy states a max ppO2 of 1.4 for all diving to 130m.
When I queried this, they responded:

"We confirm that we are aware that the Decompression Stage of Technical Diving may involve the use of gases at 1.6 bar, and that we may alter our policy wording to reflect this in future. However for the time being we formally confirm by way of this email that you will be covered to use 1.6 bar during the decompression stage whilst diving."

HTH,

DLK