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Hot Totty
15-03-2013, 08:47 PM
Now my sentinel being one of the 'older' models had minimal intrusive red HUD alarms, so if you got one you tended to take notice (even if it is to swear at it it for being so stupid to tell you to bail when you've still got 30bar O2 left wtf). So low gas warnings dismissed, you mainly get red Huds for stuff important like high po2 or low po2, everything else generally merits a minor alarm (flashy blue/green disco lights) ie check your handset and do something. VR in there infinite wisdom have decided to 'uprate' (critical software update) some of these minor alarms to full on bail get off it now (one of them in question is a millivolt warning) aparently folks have been ignoring the minor!!! is it only me or have they just increased the probability of major alarm blindness by having too many reds.

Please don't descend into the usual vr bashing (even if you do find it entertaining) this is a genuine question on becoming alarm blind if there are too many :D

pokeystar
16-03-2013, 07:19 AM
I posted last week on another forum about a red bail out warning re filter. Couldn't work out what had triggered it. Head was back with VR recently and got a software update. Guess now this may have something to do with it. Will update my manual.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Soggy
16-03-2013, 07:41 AM
I posted last week on another forum about a red bail out warning re filter. Couldn't work out what had triggered it. Head was back with VR recently and got a software update. Guess now this may have something to do with it. Will update my manual.


If you run out of scrubber it likes to tell you. I think it's set at 3hrs give or take and calculates it through O2 consumption. I've had it a few times on long dives.

Soggy
16-03-2013, 07:43 AM
Please don't descend into the usual vr bashing (even if you do find it entertaining) this is a genuine question on becoming alarm blind if there are too many :D

You're living in fantasy land.....it's only a matter of time before the usual suspects will be along with their soap boxes.

I'd like to be able to set it to alarm for what I want it to alarm on. I know how much scrubber I have because I put it in there and can read my timer. I'm well aware of the O2 pressure, I've been monitoring it and 30 bar will last fookin ages.

edward
16-03-2013, 07:51 AM
Not rebreather related, but alarm blindness is a well known issue in many other areas. On the railways AWS and driver vigilance devices have a history of becoming automatically cancelled as a habit, then when a real warning comes it is ignored.

Sounds like a similar situation here.

nickb
16-03-2013, 01:50 PM
I think you're right about warnings. For me, the Shearwater controller is just about spot on. Anything that it thinks needs to give you a nudge is yellow and stuff that's life-threatening is red. No more no less.

Why Kevin Gurr thinks differently is of no interest to me unless it spoils my early morning cup of tea with all that buzzing and what would be a nice relaxed start to a day is ruined by Sentinel users worrying that they're going to have another shitty day. But you buy into this stuff knowing what you're going to get...........


Please don't descend into the usual vr bashing (even if you do find it entertaining) this is a genuine question on becoming alarm blind if there are too many :DIf you're happy to dish it out Rich, you need to be able to take it.

GLOC
16-03-2013, 02:03 PM
You're living in fantasy land.....it's only a matter of time before the usual suspects will be along with their soap boxes.

I'd like to be able to set it to alarm for what I want it to alarm on. I know how much scrubber I have because I put it in there and can read my timer. I'm well aware of the O2 pressure, I've been monitoring it and 30 bar will last fookin ages.

Barry, you are right that you should be able to configure the alarms to whatever you want, but what about those who aren't as attentive as you? First part of systems safety engineering is to technically engineer the solution out, then look to the soft elements. However, the problem here is that you potentially have a technical mitigation which has the same level of 'false alarm' as the soft option; but the reasons for the false alarms are down to an external source (O2 cell).

I don't the answer given the potential unreliability of O2 cells, what do you suggest as a solution to cover the attentive divers and those who aren't as attentive? (Genuine question, not meant as flippant but internet posts are hard to express attitude)

Regards

nickb
16-03-2013, 02:05 PM
Barry, ............Barry? Who the fuck is Barry? ;)

GLOC
16-03-2013, 02:06 PM
Barry? Who the fuck is Barry? ;)

Another story lost in the demise of YD...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

nickb
16-03-2013, 02:12 PM
Another story lost in the demise of YD...Nothing gets lost on the internet:

Who the fuck is Barrie? (http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/surface-interval/25142-narked-out-my-box.html)

Soggy
16-03-2013, 02:35 PM
I don't the answer given the potential unreliability of O2 cells, what do you suggest as a solution to cover the attentive divers and those who aren't as attentive? (Genuine question, not meant as flippant but internet posts are hard to express attitude)


difficult but it could be done, maybe a standard set-up to begin with, all alarms set as 'On' and then up to the user what they actually want the unit to alarm on. I would still want various alarms, high PPO2, low PPO2, High O2/Dil pressure drop, solenoid fecked, Cell warnings etc. It would need warning screens letting you know what your doing is dangerous but its your choice to be resetting them. If you don't want any alarms then fine have none but turning everything like that off would make me wonder why you've bought that unit as essentially the alarms function are part of the unit.

I don't think it needs an immediate 'Bailout' alarm for only having 30 bar of O2. Its a bizarre alarm as its meaningless, 30 bar will last me quite some time. I'm not sure if it would benefit from alarms being more 'intelligent' if you set the unit up and jump in and only have 30bar an alarm is useful but if you've done a 3hr dive and have only 10 mins of deco left a 30bar alarm is slightly pointless AFAIC. Same as the scrubber alarm, if your at the end of a dive and not long left in the water having a scrubber alarm go off is slightly pointless really, I'm not a great fan of a scrubber alarm cos its only really set or 3hrs (CE timing i suppose) but the reality is you've probably got a couple more hours in the scrubber.

GLOC
16-03-2013, 02:48 PM
The default should be on, and then you can start to turn each one off that you don't want. However, be fully cognisant that you are eroding a safety measure in doing so even if that safety measure if not 'reliable' enough.

Intent and intelligence is an interesting one. I was involved in some of the requirements setting for the A400M terrain following guidance system which should allow the aircraft to operate hands-off using a digital terrain elevation database (DTED) and the combined inertial, barometric and GPS altitudes. There would also be a enhanced ground proximity warning system which would give a warning if the aircraft entered a configuration in which the aircraft would be unable to out-climb the terrain in front of the aircraft. Airbus said that they were looking at 1:10 000 per flying hour false alarm rate for the EGPWS, we almost fell of our chairs laughing. We gave the scenario of the crew manually flying down a valley at 500ft with 3000ft walls which ended in a T; the point at which the aircraft would enter the turn would be after the decision point to climb the terrain on the other side of the T and as such there would be an alarm for the crew to pull up, even though they knew that they could make it around the corner. I am not sure what the rate is but I know that on a system that was being trialled at the same time was giving a false alarm around every 5mins given a flight altitude of 250ft; the crew either wound up the 'threshold' or they turned it off...

I can see something similar happening here; how do you decide what the useful 'threshold' is when it comes to O2 because it will be scenario specific? Again, I don't have an answer but I am not sure that the majority of users would be aware of the holes that they could fall through if they have this incorrectly set.

Regards

Hot Totty
16-03-2013, 05:37 PM
To me and my understanding a red alarm means an immediate bail, sort it out off loop then if safe go back on. However there seem to be so many 'red' alarms now that the first response will be check the handset - that may be a problem on a high or low po2 (depending on level) all the others can be generally sorted on loop, a minor alarm is fine for those too many reds devalues them in my opinion :D

Soggy
16-03-2013, 05:40 PM
To me and my understanding a red alarm means an immediate bail, sort it out off loop then if safe go back on. However there seem to be so many 'red' alarms now that the first response will be check the handset - that may be a problem on a high or low po2 (depending on level) all the others can be generally sorted on loop, a minor alarm is fine for those too many reds devalues them in my opinion :D

What are the red alarms now?

Hot Totty
16-03-2013, 05:51 PM
What are the red alarms now?

Cell millivolt error for starts

Soggy
16-03-2013, 06:02 PM
Cell millivolt error for starts

so a single cell having a millivolt error is a reason to bailout but the unit will drop out a cell if the readings aren't within bounds, so whats the point of the alarm?

Hot Totty
16-03-2013, 06:05 PM
so a single cell having a millivolt error is a reason to bailout but the unit will drop out a cell if the readings aren't within bounds, so whats the point of the alarm?

Because folks havnt been dil flushing and checking - at least that's the reasoning on the email sent to me

Soggy
16-03-2013, 06:08 PM
Because folks havnt been dil flushing and checking - at least that's the reasoning on the email sent to me

why the feck is that a 'bailout' alarm, surely its green/blue with a "dil flush" prompt on the handset.

Think i'll be having my unit stay as is.

Hot Totty
16-03-2013, 06:12 PM
why the feck is that a 'bailout' alarm, surely its green/blue with a "dil flush" prompt on the handset.

Think i'll be having my unit stay as is.

Exactly my point - seems to be a red alarm creep :(

Soggy
16-03-2013, 06:18 PM
I can see something similar happening here; how do you decide what the useful 'threshold' is when it comes to O2 because it will be scenario specific? Again, I don't have an answer but I am not sure that the majority of users would be aware of the holes that they could fall through if they have this incorrectly set.


i would say that the actual O2 pressure isn't need for an alarm at all. If your on CCR, then the amount of O2 you have should be known and you should as part of your checks know what you have. If your doing a big dive then your a blithering idiot if you've hammered the deco beyond the O2 you've got....that's basic dive planning. I would however want to know, if for some reason, was dropping quickly and beyond normal consumption levels. Could be a leak somewhere and i'd then be watching the actual pressure readings and turning the dive and heading up.

Major Clanger
18-03-2013, 07:17 AM
There are only a few essential alarms on a unit imo; high or low ppo2 and low battery. Are you able to disable the rest and still use the unit without it trying to keep, or get you back, on the boat? Most of them I know of appear to be nothing more than an unnecessary comfort blanket and the things they're giving warning about can be mitigated with proper prep in the first place and good in-dive monitoring. It's like a road with too many signs, you loose sight of the essential ones because of all the desirable ones. Turn them off, if you can do so and still dive safely.


Serious post btw.

Hot Totty
18-03-2013, 07:57 PM
Many I can turn off, but for instance to kill a low gas alarm I have to turn the sensor off so now I don't have a scuby how much is left. Don't seem to be able to turn the filter alarm off ( at least the one time it gave me it I couldn't under water)

Major Clanger
18-03-2013, 08:25 PM
Many I can turn off, but for instance to kill a low gas alarm I have to turn the sensor off so now I don't have a scuby how much is left. Don't seem to be able to turn the filter alarm off ( at least the one time it gave me it I couldn't under water)

For arguments sake, do you need to know how much gas is left if you know what you started with; thinking boom scenario being only indication of a loss of gas. I know RBer's that don't use gauges other than a button on the first stage.

Humour me, while I decide which agency route to go down :)

Hot Totty
18-03-2013, 08:45 PM
Kinda don't see the point of a gauge if you have to turn it off when it's low (not at zero) ;)

Major Clanger
18-03-2013, 08:56 PM
Kinda don't see the point of a gauge if you have to turn it off when it's low (not at zero) ;)

Why's the alarm there at all if you packed enough gas? Just switch the sensor off at the start of the dive if you can and monitor your levels (assuming there's gauge to monitor) or fly blind :) which is what those that use a button gauge do. If there is a boom, it should still be detectable and identifiable which side.

Hot Totty
18-03-2013, 09:05 PM
Coz it'll probably turn itsf back on again -IMF of there own sentinels ;)

Major Clanger
18-03-2013, 09:07 PM
Coz it'll probably turn itsf back on again -IMF of there own sentinels ;)


Lol, bad Dobby.

AndrewR
19-03-2013, 08:40 AM
But you buy into this stuff knowing what you're going to get...........

Not sure that's true. Certainly wasn't in my case. Once you have lived with a unit, then yes I agree but I think this is some of the things you learn with "my first unit"

FrogTec
19-03-2013, 12:48 PM
The unit defaults all its alarms on when it turns off/on.

You can turn every alarm off except scrubber time, which is annoying as it may mean you are at 4.5m for a long time with a red light & vibrate, this will cause alarm blindness IMHO. Don't know about battery but I assume not.

I agree the 30bar bit is annoying, but if I remember rightly you can't pre breathe it with less than about 80 (unless you have turned off the sensor) you won't get past the turn on HP screen unless there is a significant amount. I think the alarm is needed tho as a slow gas loss won't necessarily be noticed until the alarm sounds. Driving the valve manually on 30bar should give you circa 45 to 60 mins of oxygen - probably enough for deco if you head up then.

The new alarm although I can see worth, it now adds an element of urgency to my dil flush or in some a BO ascent! It's going to confuse the screen as unless I can acknowledge the red & cancel without the need to manually disable a cell (which may be the good one) I will have other alarms as my ppo2 drops on dil flush etc.

In any case my unit is at VR now for service so I expect it will come back all reprogrammed.

Karlos

Jackdiver
27-03-2013, 10:46 AM
I got the email about this software update this morning.

Anyone know anything about this upgrade to wireless HP transmitters instead of optocon?

:)

Soggy
27-03-2013, 11:10 AM
Yeah just read through it too.

I'll wait to send my unit back. I've a feeling I'll need to win the lottery first to pay for all the fixes and upgrades :D

Scuttler
27-03-2013, 11:39 AM
Yeah just read through it too.

I'll wait to send my unit back. I've a feeling I'll need to win the lottery first to pay for all the fixes and upgrades :D

If they're fixes to design errors they should be free. If they're upgrades they should be optional. This policy of automatically applying service bulletins or items that should be advisory is one of the things that really get on my tits with the diving industry in general :swear::punch::swear:

Soggy
27-03-2013, 11:44 AM
If they're fixes to design errors they should be free. If they're upgrades they should be optional. This policy of automatically applying service bulletins or items that should be advisory is one of the things that really get on my tits with the diving industry in general :swear::punch::swear:

I spoke to them briefly about my Temp stick as I've broke the connector on mine. Apparently they don't do hard wired connectors any more so I'll be stung for the upgrade to optocon. Not really happy at the intimation that if anything goes wrong with the old units you now pay for upgrades even if you don't want them but to have the unit as original.

Scuttler
27-03-2013, 11:56 AM
I spoke to them briefly about my Temp stick as I've broke the connector on mine. Apparently they don't do hard wired connectors any more so I'll be stung for the upgrade to optocon. Not really happy at the intimation that if anything goes wrong with the old units you now pay for upgrades even if you don't want them but to have the unit as original.

Tough one really. In that situation there's nothing to stop them issuing a notice to users saying that they're discontinuing that method. If the user wants to continue to utilise the method then they need to participate in a last time buy to support their own unit, otherwise units will be upgraded on an attrition basis when the item fails. Seems a fairer way to operate to me.