CCR Bail Out

[leeiom]

Just wondering how many have had to do a emergency bailout ?

I had my first and hopefully last on Monday.

what happened -

Shore Dive in morning - perfectly fine got some lunch went to boat looking forward to dive :) ALL GOOD

Boat - Did prechecks on CCR before i got on the boat even though loop wasn't broken at any point as unit went straight in car.

untied unit on boat when i was getting ready to dive BANG unit on floor of bench ( I have never dropped kit of bench on boat ) redid all checks passed positive and neg for 3 mins each only damage was a cave shield.

Got in water dropped to 7/8ish me and my buddy did bubble checks all fine, down to 35m with current all good loving the Dive, decided to head back to rock line and start working our way up slowly as planned had to swim though a bit of current but nothing ive not done at that site loads of times.

swimming back breathing went tight, and adv dint fire.... hmm checked adv by pressing it in it worked phew i can breath that didn't last long, thought maybe canister light wire caught the CL Dump, no!! PP02 1.3 was stable and i had 140ish bar in both dill and oxy, there was no gargling,funny taste, i just couldn't get gas through......

i let my buddy know and bailed at 35m

Went onto my bailout a ali40 with 180bar of nx30. at this point i was breathing pretty rapid ( tried to stay calm ) switched handset to low sp, (should of went to oc bailout ) i went to do my DSMB my buddy already had his up by this point took mine out of my hand and clipped it on to himself, started coming up, burping loop when needed. hr/ breathing went straight down by the time i got to 20m stayed there for a moment and composed myself, check checked comp and changed it to OC B/O no deco as this luckily happened early on in the dive made way to surface and got back on boat.

what caused the problem ?

did i flood the unit letting water in around my mouth - disconnected hose was dry which is amazing for me as i had to burp it on the way up so 10 points for not over burping and getting water in

there was no blown oring otherwise we would of spotted bubbles on check ....

took the head out water in the bottom of the unit just covering the bottom of the sorb !!! UNIT FLOODED - that will be the not been able to breath !

did another positive check well waiting for other divers to surface after about 10/12 mins the lungs started collapsing

PINHOLE HOLE in lungs, probably caused from drop but as i only tested for a few mins i didn't notice....


THINGS I HAVE LEARNT FROM THIS DIVE:

I can bail out in anger.
I should of got on the bailout quicker and then tried to find problem not the other way around although checking did only take a few seconds.
from now on Im running a pressure test from when I get on the Boat until i am about to get in the water

so ccr is in shop been sorted, ill be doing a couple of shallow dives just to make sure its fine, then back on the boat.

it has shook me up, scared me but ill be back on it ASAP and a lot more aware of things, i guess and more confident in some ways as i know i can BO in situation

[Paulo]

I wonder if the fall knocked the base of the scrubber can enough to allow water in under there. It can look like a solid piece but the JJ can is a tube with an end cap and o-rings.

Thanks for posting. Shit happens. It seems like you learned from it.

[notdeadyet]

Always better to bail out and worry about the right and wrong of it later. I don't know the architecture of the JJ so can't offer any other advice.


Just wondering how many have had to do a emergency bailout ?

Depends on how you define "emergency". I've bailed out by choice a few times because I'm lazy. I've had something fail that isn't massively challenging, like something electronic, and spunking a 3 of air to get to 6m was just less hassle than doing one of a range of choices to stay on the loop. Nobody is scoring my performance so a quick bailout and ascent was straightforward but maybe not necessary.

I've had a few "real" bailouts. Two CO2 hits on a KISS, both from floods. A retained CO2 hit from trying out a new mouthpiece on my Mk15, fine on the surface but at about 15m it was like having my lungs hoovered out. The scariest was a non-dive, dicking about in ankle deep water trying to put my fins on. I felt the walls closing in, spat the DSV and just breathed normally. I got so task fixated on doing my fins I never noticed the loop going hypoxic. I don't know if that counts as a bail-out as I'd never really bailed-in.

[Paulo]

I got so task fixated on doing my fins I never noticed the loop going hypoxic. I don't know if that counts as a bail-out as I'd never really bailed-in.

interesting

[notdeadyet]

interesting

mCCR on a shore dive at Dorothea, just standing in the water trying to put my fins on. I had a shut-off on the oxygen so that I could keep the hoses pressurised but not be pissing gas into the loop while getting kitted up at the surface. I always ran a pure O2 loop at the surface but I'm guessing in this case the dil would still have been switched on. Burned through O2, loop volume dropped, eventually it's going to get replaced with dil and that's going to get breathed down. I was breathing hard, a combo of effort, anger and it being a boiling hot day. I can't recall the ppO2 but it was somewhere in the region of 0.10-0.12'ish when I looked at it if I remember right (I've not dived mCCR in about 12 years). I don't remember much other than the feeling of the curtains coming down, for whatever reason I had the good sense to spit the mouthpiece out and the lights came on again almost instantly.

It scared me more than anything that's ever happened to me on a rebreather. I knew if I'd have passed out I probably wouldn't even have raised a second look from anyone. I'd have been face down in a foot water, would've looked like I was just doing some predive checks. It also happened so easily, just a momentary lapse and then getting distracted by a stupid task. Drowned in knee deep water.

[Woz]

When doing a neg check, I find the "suck in the loop then turn the mouthpiece off" to be pretty woeful.
The trick is to stick the loop in your mouth, suck it flat, and close off the back of your throat so you can still breathe through your nose but with your mouth shut off. Then if there is a teeny tiny 1cc leak into the loop, you can tell as your cheeks will expand. It's a really sensitive way of doing a neg test, and you can do it much quicker than the "suck it and see" method.

[gobfish1]

What was the problems with the adv.
Also seem odd to have small pin hole in lung but have lots of water in
scrubber. (No gargling)

Had slow leaking from a hose I'd not dune up properly. On my AP unit

Toke about 15mins to notice and I managed to stay on the loop for a nother 40 mins and Finnish the dive . Keeping a eye on wob.
Counter lung was in 1/3 full and scrubber had a few hundred mil in bottom just about touching lime. But most of the water got caught in the counter lung. ( gargling often )

JJ has water traps yes?

[witchieblackcat]

I agree with Gobber's analysis re: tiny pinprick does not equal massive flood.

Are you sure that burping the unit didn't fill the scrubber with water?
Not sure about JJ but on my unit you can happily breath with a fair amount of water in the bottom of the scrubber canister albeit there's a lot of bubble sounds.

[ebt]

I think i only had two in over 10 years of ccr.


I've had a few "real" bailouts.

Oh how quickly the McMeg is forgotten….

[notdeadyet]

Oh how quickly the McMeg is forgotten….

I was thinking about that earlier :D

That was more of a fight with a xenomorph attempting to pin me to a cave roof whilst suffocating me at the same time. Fucking thing wouldn't stop, even when I'd taken it off it was still coming at me for more. I thought it was trying to John Hurt me.

[dwhitlow]

Outside paid suffering (aka courses), and the rare drills I've inflicted on myself, I've bailed out twice.

First was with Inspo FM counter-lungs when the diluent MAV became slack (passed -ve and +ve but not over-tightened enough) and loosened during the dive and this resulted in water being drawn into the loop, with deep gurgling noises from behind and WoB that became distracting. That was on the Markgraf and rather than hunt the shot we went up and buddy deployed SMB and we ascended, albeit a bit untidily.

Had the same problem another time but stayed on the loop and we finished the dive (surfacing in Valletta harbour is considered bad form). I then switched to BMCL and that potential fail has been removed from my life.

The other time was when a stiff mouthpiece (due to lack of love) caused the captured o-ring in the Inspo loop to lift out of it's place, leaving no way to seal the loop! Thankfully this was shallow and we soon surfaced. That event did make me reluctant to embrace the BOV and off-board mindset, and stick with independent bailout. Having not bailed out by necessity in over a decade I wonder why I carry so many bottles.... and yet I do.

[JonG]

Twice, once in Capenwray on the Podsnap due to the orifice unseating in the CMF valve, spiking the o2 in an uncontrolled fashion, bailed out and surfaced back at the entry point.

2nd time was in Cambrian mine, when I thought I'd flooded the unit as the cell reading were squirrely, bailed out in the Shunting Yard and swam back to our entry at DB3. This was more likely my head playing tricks though as there was only a very minimal amount of water in the unit and the cells are high in the head way above the trap.

[Paulo]

JJ has water traps yes?

Effectively the same layout as the Inspo. Lungs can hold a lot of water, plus there is a few inches below the scrubber too.

I had an ongoing problem with the exhale counterlung leaking that I spent a fair bit of time trying to isolate. It would let out a bubble on every breath so water was getting in. Even after a 2 hour dive it was barely more than a cup of water though. Eventually got fed up looking for it and just replaced the lung

[Mark Chase]

Three necessary bailouts but only one id describe as an emergency.

1st rEvo flooded but the flood took ages and the final bailout was not necessary until I hit the 21m stop and switched to OC 50% when the WOB on loop became intolerable

2nd KISS flooded rapidly, caustic solution in my mouth after trying to clear the loop so instant bailout but I had a BOV so cant really call it a drama

Proper emergency bailout was in a cave when my Inspo classic pretty much exploded after a failure on the dill side and I was left in a jacuzzi of bubbles at about 93m

Bailed to OC and it was a proper close loop and bail to OC reg as It was an old Inspo Classic in 2004 and BOV hadn't been added yet.

The cave was very deep but exit point was at 65m (I think) so finned like fk to exit and was running low on deep bailout so did an assessment of the unit and was able to switch on to my bailout and use this as Diluent via manual injection and go safely back on loop

Which was handy as I had no more deep gas and my buddy (who had the other two bailout bottles) had decided I was toast so didn't bother to follow me out.

NEVER dived teem bailout again after that dive.

[leeiom]

no problem with the adv unit is still in the shop getting sorted the assumption was small hole in lung but will update when i get it back with full report

[Dylona]

Channelling from the drop, co2 hit increase WOB which made you think poor breathing?

[gobfish1]

no problem with the adv unit is still in the shop getting sorted the assumption was small hole in lung but will update when i get it back with full report

Adv has had the cracking pressure looked at . Clearly not working as it should if you bottom out lungs and it never kicked in.
Easy to get water in if you bottom out and lose lips or bad bail out . Maybe adv was playing mind games .

[Wibs]

ADV not properly closed caused my bailout.

Fell off the dive lift as the clown's shoes caught the side of the lift. Surprising how much the face plant hurts as the mask is rammed into one's face. Tiny bit of water in the mouthpiece, obviously through loose lips. All seemed OK, so descended.

That teaspoonful of water was sodding annoying, bubbling in the exhale mushroom. Cure is to tip it back into the exhale lung. Did that, but it came back again as it tipped out of the exhale lung into the exhale loop.

It's only a teaspoonful of water. Grrr. Tried all sorts of tricks, but it kept coming back with more gurgling.

Getting niggled now, tried rolling the water out of the exhale loop a little too enthusiastically -- which pushed water through the scrubbers into the inhale lung.

Then that unmistakable taste of caustic lime in the mouth woke up the logical brain and took over from the chimp brain: "feck moi, a caustic cocktail, bail out now". Immediately reached for the bailout regulator and did a full bailout. "OK, now living, feeling better, so get out of here". Ascent took a while with decompression, ran it for five mins longer too.

Back on the boat, opened the box up and discovered over a litre of milky water in the lungs which stung when mopping it out. Did a massive clean and check of the unit when I got home. Amazingly the cells were fine!

Lessons learned -- it took a while to work out all of them

Root cause: the ADV DSV had partially opened when I fell in; task fixation on clearing the "teaspoon" of water from the loop hampered logical thought.
If leaking, check that the ADV DSV is closed!
Stop. Seriously, stop. Step back and work through the problem from the beginning. Bail out if there's any reason to. (The irony here would have been it would have stopped the leak!)
Fighting the system is not going to achieve anything.
Practice bailing out breathing on every dive, i.e. reach for the regulator and breathe from it.
The bailout breathing process -- reach back, pull out the hose, breathe from OC, back on the loop, tidy hose -- takes a little time and effort and can discourage one from a "sanity breath" (i.e. being bone idle). Whereas a bailout valve is trivially easy to switch to OC and back to CC again.
Take any issue seriously. It could be deadly as the incident pit starts with a simple thing which will only get worse if not dealt with.
Be wary of "chimp brain" and task fixation
The old adage of loosing half of your IQ when you submerge is true!
The full bailout went really smoothly including the change to deco gas, even burping the unit and changing computer settings.


On balance this was a good experience and a thoroughly needed kick in the backside.


Edit: ADV DSV, thanks Woz

[Paulo]

ADV not properly closed caused my bailout.

Fell off the dive lift as the clown's shoes caught the side of the lift. Surprising how much the face plant hurts as the mask is rammed into one's face. Tiny bit of water in the mouthpiece, obviously through loose lips. All seemed OK, so descended.

That teaspoonful of water was sodding annoying, bubbling in the exhale mushroom. Cure is to tip it back into the exhale lung. Did that, but it came back again as it tipped out of the exhale lung into the exhale loop.

It's only a teaspoonful of water. Grrr. Tried all sorts of tricks, but it kept coming back with more gurgling.

Getting niggled now, tried rolling the water out of the exhale loop a little too enthusiastically -- which pushed water through the scrubbers into the inhale lung.

Then that unmistakable taste of caustic lime in the mouth woke up the logical brain and took over from the chimp brain: "feck moi, a caustic cocktail, bail out now". Immediately reached for the bailout regulator and did a full bailout. "OK, now living, feeling better, so get out of here". Ascent took a while with decompression, ran it for five mins longer too.

Back on the boat, opened the box up and discovered over a litre of milky water in the lungs which stung when mopping it out. Did a massive clean and check of the unit when I got home. Amazingly the cells were fine!

Lessons learned -- it took a while to work out all of them

Root cause: the ADV had partially opened when I fell in; task fixation on clearing the "teaspoon" of water from the loop hampered logical thought.
If leaking, check that the ADV is closed!
Stop. Seriously, stop. Step back and work through the problem from the beginning. Bail out if there's any reason to. (The irony here would have been it would have stopped the leak!)
Fighting the system is not going to achieve anything.
Practice bailing out breathing on every dive, i.e. reach for the regulator and breathe from it.
The bailout breathing process -- reach back, pull out the hose, breathe from OC, back on the loop, tidy hose -- takes a little time and effort and can discourage one from a "sanity breath" (i.e. being bone idle). Whereas a bailout valve is trivially easy to switch to OC and back to CC again.
Take any issue seriously. It could be deadly as the incident pit starts with a simple thing which will only get worse if not dealt with.
Be wary of "chimp brain" and task fixation
The old adage of loosing half of your IQ when you submerge is true!
The full bailout went really smoothly including the change to deco gas, even burping the unit and changing computer settings.


On balance this was a good experience and a thoroughly needed kick in the backside.

This is not the 1st caustic cocktail I have heard of with a rEvo. In fact, I think almost all of the cocktails I have heard of are from rEvos. It is amlost as if relying on a windscreen chamois for life support is a bad idea :) ;)

[Vanny]

Got to say reading this back I’d follow Paulo’s thought through on damage to the can. Pin hole in the lung would surely fill the lung first then need to move to the can. Pin hole could be misleading you ? Did it fall in such a way that the lung would’ve got damaged?

[JonG]

Ian France had a couple of caustics on his Triton, think Patrick Wildman has had a few on the SW too, heard of 2 on Kiss Classics including Mark's.

Jas (Minimal Mayhem) had a pretty big flood on his Triton in Scapa after some stray fag embers pinholed his bag.

[notdeadyet]

Didn't everyone's favourite rebreather genius have a cocktail on his Inspo when he put lithium hydroxide in it? Apparently that was the unsafe design of the Inspo though. Clown.

[ebt]

Fucking thing wouldn't stop, even when I'd taken it off it was still coming at me

“frankensteins monster seeks revenge” seemed fair to me. It was when it tried to mug me as i passed it, that i took offence….

[Wibs]

This is not the 1st caustic cocktail I have heard of with a rEvo. In fact, I think almost all of the cocktails I have heard of are from rEvos. It is amlost as if relying on a windscreen chamois for life support is a bad idea :) ;)

It was completely my fault. Seriously.

It didn't even occur to me that the ADV DSV was partially open. Fixating on a flawed hypothesis without stopping didn't improve the diagnosis (the definition of madness is repeating the same failing over and over). Then rolling over caused the water in the flooded lung to run through the exhale scrubber into the inhale scrubber and into the inhale lung, which due to my flat trim flowed into the inhale loop and mouthpiece.

No rebreather is perfect. They all have different weak points -- especially the pilot!




Edit: ADV DSV

[Paulo]

It was completely my fault. Seriously.

It didn't even occur to me that the ADV was partially open. Fixating on a flawed hypothesis without stopping didn't improve the diagnosis (the definition of madness is repeating the same failing over and over). Then rolling over caused the water in the flooded lung to run through the exhale scrubber into the inhale scrubber and into the inhale lung, which due to my flat trim flowed into the inhale loop and mouthpiece.

No rebreather is perfect. They all have different weak points -- especially the pilot!

Firstly, you fly a plane, you dive a CCR ;)

Secondly, I am not familiar with a rEvo ADV, but how are they letting water in? On the Inspo & JJ they are effectively a bastardised 2nd stage that allows gas into the sealed loop if below a set pressure. There is no way for water to get in. How does the rEvo one differ?

[graham_hk]

ADV not properly closed caused my bailout.

Fell off the dive lift as the clown's shoes caught the side of the lift. Surprising how much the face plant hurts as the mask is rammed into one's face. Tiny bit of water in the mouthpiece, obviously through loose lips. All seemed OK, so descended.

That teaspoonful of water was sodding annoying, bubbling in the exhale mushroom. Cure is to tip it back into the exhale lung. Did that, but it came back again as it tipped out of the exhale lung into the exhale loop.

It's only a teaspoonful of water. Grrr. Tried all sorts of tricks, but it kept coming back with more gurgling.

Getting niggled now, tried rolling the water out of the exhale loop a little too enthusiastically -- which pushed water through the scrubbers into the inhale lung.

Then that unmistakable taste of caustic lime in the mouth woke up the logical brain and took over from the chimp brain: "feck moi, a caustic cocktail, bail out now". Immediately reached for the bailout regulator and did a full bailout. "OK, now living, feeling better, so get out of here". Ascent took a while with decompression, ran it for five mins longer too.

Back on the boat, opened the box up and discovered over a litre of milky water in the lungs which stung when mopping it out. Did a massive clean and check of the unit when I got home. Amazingly the cells were fine!

Lessons learned -- it took a while to work out all of them

Root cause: the ADV had partially opened when I fell in; task fixation on clearing the "teaspoon" of water from the loop hampered logical thought.
If leaking, check that the ADV is closed!
Stop. Seriously, stop. Step back and work through the problem from the beginning. Bail out if there's any reason to. (The irony here would have been it would have stopped the leak!)
Fighting the system is not going to achieve anything.
Practice bailing out breathing on every dive, i.e. reach for the regulator and breathe from it.
The bailout breathing process -- reach back, pull out the hose, breathe from OC, back on the loop, tidy hose -- takes a little time and effort and can discourage one from a "sanity breath" (i.e. being bone idle). Whereas a bailout valve is trivially easy to switch to OC and back to CC again.
Take any issue seriously. It could be deadly as the incident pit starts with a simple thing which will only get worse if not dealt with.
Be wary of "chimp brain" and task fixation
The old adage of loosing half of your IQ when you submerge is true!
The full bailout went really smoothly including the change to deco gas, even burping the unit and changing computer settings.


On balance this was a good experience and a thoroughly needed kick in the backside.

Surely the lesson learned is don't dive toy rebreathers?

[Vanny]

Sounds like you need a water trap or sea horse trim :OMG:

[Woz]

Firstly, you fly a plane, you dive a CCR ;)

Secondly, I am not familiar with a rEvo ADV, but how are they letting water in? On the Inspo & JJ they are effectively a bastardised 2nd stage that allows gas into the sealed loop if below a set pressure. There is no way for water to get in. How does the rEvo one differ?

The poor lad is getting confused between ADV and DSV.

ADV on a Revo is a bastardised R190 innard that gets the lever squished by the lung. DSV is straight off a Draeger.

[notdeadyet]

Firstly, you fly a plane, you dive a CCR ;)

Secondly, I am not familiar with a rEvo ADV, but how are they letting water in? On the Inspo & JJ they are effectively a bastardised 2nd stage that allows gas into the sealed loop if below a set pressure. There is no way for water to get in. How does the rEvo one differ?

OPV not ADV maybe? rEvo is the only unit that I have less interest in than a JJ so no idea about its architecture but not sure how you get water in through the ADV without puncturing or unseating the diaphragm? KISS ADV diaphragm was an absolute bastard, the minute you do any work on it you might as well throw the whole rebreather in the bin as it will never work the same again. OPV was just an Apeks drysuit valve so you could open wide enough that (in theory) it would leak water.

[MinimalMayhem]

Ian France had a couple of caustics on his Triton, think Patrick Wildman has had a few on the SW too, heard of 2 on Kiss Classics including Mark's.

Jas (Minimal Mayhem) had a pretty big flood on his Triton in Scapa after some stray fag embers pinholed his bag.

Wasn't a big flood, but definitely enough to give me bizarre cell readings that couldn't be fixed with a dil flush so I just bailed. The two lessons for me were don't be so sloppy on pre-dive checks and don't leave kit out (to dry) where there's any risk of that kit being exposed to hot things!

Now I did get some flooding when my aquasure counterlung repair failed on a (much) later dive down a hole somewhere (Dinas I think it was) which led me to replace the lung. Even then, given it was a small leak diving it out was a matter of keeping the lungs and loop in a position where there was little risk of the water coming up the inhale hose though now I'm older and wiser I would probably try to de-water once and then if that failed, bail out (but I don't have that unit any more).

I think Patrick's was when using an experimental unit held together with cable ties or something dodgy though I have heard of at least one person with a SW having the loop towers breaking/cracking and letting in water that led to a caustic.

[Wibs]

OPV not ADV maybe? rEvo is the only unit that I have less interest in than a JJ so no idea about its architecture but not sure how you get water in through the ADV without puncturing or unseating the diaphragm? KISS ADV diaphragm was an absolute bastard, the minute you do any work on it you might as well throw the whole rebreather in the bin as it will never work the same again. OPV was just an Apeks drysuit valve so you could open wide enough that (in theory) it would leak water.

Apologies. Woz wos right; meant DSV mouthpiece not ADV.

Are partially open and leaking DSVs a common problem to most DSVs as they need an exit to blow the flooded mouthpiece water? Not an issue with a BOV as "open" is out through the one-way regulator output valve.

A BOV should mean that loop water could be blown out through the regulator, i.e. de-water the loop.

[notdeadyet]

Apologies. Woz wos right; meant DSV mouthpiece not ADV.

Are partially open and leaking DSVs a common problem to most DSVs as they need an exit to blow the flooded mouthpiece water? Not an issue with a BOV as "open" is out through the one-way regulator output valve.

A BOV should mean that loop water could be blown out through the regulator, i.e. de-water the loop.

Didn't they say the rEvo didn't need a BOV because it has two scrubbers? :D

On a Golem BOV, yes you can blow water through the second stage but you won't fully clear it. When you close the barrel you trap a slug of water between it and the flapper valve so some will always end up in the exhale hose.

[Woz]

Apologies. Woz wos right; meant DSV mouthpiece not ADV.

Are partially open and leaking DSVs a common problem to most DSVs as they need an exit to blow the flooded mouthpiece water? Not an issue with a BOV as "open" is out through the one-way regulator output valve.

A BOV should mean that loop water could be blown out through the regulator, i.e. de-water the loop.

On a DSV on an Inspo you blow out the small volume of water in the mouthpiece before the barrel and it exits through a hole in the bottom. Then when it's dry, rotate the barrel and you're back on the loop.

However in a stunning piece of shite design, the internal barrel can be put in the wrong way round so it breathes right to left, and the mouthpiece will then nearly, but not quite, close, and nearly, but not quite, open. The handset will also beep at you like crazy as the loop is running backwards.

You'll be glad to hear with the new ribbed mouthpiece this isn't a problem as they have moved the mouthpiece off-centre so it's obvious, and switched to a lever operated barrel like everyone else instead of the stupid two handed thing. And also got rid of the stainless screws mashed into the threads that if one of my lads did here at work he'd get a clip round the ear for being daft.

[Wibs]

Didn't they say the rEvo didn't need a BOV because it has two scrubbers? :D

What's the three "must bail out" reasons: CO2, flood & caustic. Whilst the Revo's good for the first, it's still needed for the others - and arguably not as loop-flood proof as per large front-mounted lungs.

I got the BOV following my bailout. The Revo BOV is pretty small and it very simple to bail out by just moving the lever, so there's no faff barrier (e.g. pulling out the reg+hose and stowing it away).

Also enables bailout tins to be sidemounted back under the armpits, not snagging the wreck and tucking the bailout hoses neatly beside your body.

[Mark Chase]

IMHO any CCR without a BOV is dangerous. I got my first CCR in 2004 (inspo classic)and by the end of 2004 it had a HUD and BOV

I also had a Hammer head, rEvo Kiss and JJ analog unit. all had BOV's & HUDS

My rEvo unit had an overpressure valve that could be used for flood clearance. But it which could fail when doing a giant stride into the water. I believe they later removed this.

The rEvo didn't last long as my unit of choice due to the travel problems, weight and issues with getting at the lungs, I kind of loved it and kind of hated it.

[leeiom]

breathing hose was compleatly dry

[leeiom]

UPDATE-

JJ has been in shop and fully tested - its holding pos and neg for 24hrs so it been put down to CL dump cord tangled / pulled. when i got it back i took the head orings off and gave them a good clean / grease. i did a 20m dive for a hour on sat and had about a teaspoon of water in the bottom of the unit, most likley resudal from after it flooded and i rinsed it with fresh.

[leeiom]

I wonder if the fall knocked the base of the scrubber can enough to allow water in under there. It can look like a solid piece but the JJ can is a tube with an end cap and o-rings.

Thanks for posting. Shit happens. It seems like you learned from it.

Most certinaly learned from it... hopefully ill never have to do a b/o again unless its in training

[leeiom]

I should of mentined - ive only been a ccr diver for about 3 months including training so have next to no experiance at all minuis classroom and 20hrs on the unit.

youve defilntly had your fare share of oh shit

[Wibs]

Most certinaly learned from it... hopefully ill never have to do a b/o again unless its in training

Hope you do have a successful bailout -- should you need it. Crap happens with rebreathers. Bailouts are sometimes necessary, even if its just for sanity breaths and back on the loop.

Bailing out is a good thing. Something you should practice on every dive.

[notdeadyet]

Hope you do have a successful bailout -- should you need it. Crap happens with rebreathers. Bailouts are sometimes necessary, even if its just for sanity breaths and back on the loop.

Bailing out is a good thing. Something you should practice on every dive.

Better to bail out and be wrong than stay on the loop and be wrong. Spunking a tin of air now and again on bailing at the end of an inconsequential dive for a bit of practice is no bad thing. Bailout shouldn't be something to be nervous of. If it is you probably need more bailout.

[Mark Chase]

I should of mentined - ive only been a ccr diver for about 3 months including training so have next to no experiance at all minuis classroom and 20hrs on the unit.

youve defilntly had your fare share of oh shit


Dont know how cold the water is at the moment but another resion for water in the loop (aside from condensation) was loose lips on the mouthpiece and looking hard left and hard right causing gaps at the edge of the mouthpiece.

The only downside with a BOV is they can be heavy and cause lip / jaw fatigue.

I switched to a moldable full mouth mouthpiece so I could grip it better with my teeth and still not restrict breathing. took a bit of getting used to but it worked well for me.

[dwhitlow]

The only downside with a BOV is they can be heavy and cause lip / jaw fatigue.

Not elegant but the original AP 'mouthpiece retaining strap' (AKA mask strap with two o-rings) takes the weight and removes the jaw fatigue.

As said before, there also a downside to complete reliance on a BOV...


The other time was when a stiff mouthpiece (due to lack of love) caused the captured o-ring in the Inspo loop to lift out of it's place, leaving no way to seal the loop! Thankfully this was shallow and we soon surfaced. That event did make me reluctant to embrace the BOV and off-board mindset, and stick with independent bailout. Having not bailed out by necessity in over a decade I wonder why I carry so many bottles.... and yet I do.

[Woz]

Dont know how cold the water is at the moment but another resion for water in the loop (aside from condensation) was loose lips on the mouthpiece and looking hard left and hard right causing gaps at the edge of the mouthpiece.

The only downside with a BOV is they can be heavy and cause lip / jaw fatigue.

I switched to a moldable full mouth mouthpiece so I could grip it better with my teeth and still not restrict breathing. took a bit of getting used to but it worked well for me.

Alternatively a bit of time faffing with loop length and hose weights and you can completely eliminate jaw fatigue. I can hold the AP BOV in my mouth without even biting down on the tabs- lip pressure alone is enough.

[notdeadyet]

Not elegant but the original AP 'mouthpiece retaining strap' (AKA mask strap with two o-rings) takes the weight and removes the jaw fatigue

Didn't work for me. I found the AP gag strap more uncomfortable than the problem it was supposed to solve. Plus the number of times I smacked myself in the nose with the BOV. I didn't think it was a particularly well thought out bit of kit but I know some people loved them. Maybe it works better with the AP BOV than the Golem. I had a go with the Draeger one a few years back and that was much better but £100'ish was a lot to justify. The original Golem that Ive got weighs a ton so maybe it's time to update it to something smaller.

The Manta Bite was a cheap alternative, it had a rubber flange that sat between your teeth and lips and formed a seal so you could keep your jaw/lips slack and not let water in. Great idea but jesus christ it shredded your mouth to ribbons until you got the barrier cut perfectly to shape. I had a look on their website and it doesn't seem to be made any more.

[JonG]

I've used the Draeger version from day 1 and it's been fine, either over a hood in ow or helmet in ohe.

That said I've never had the bollocks to dive without a gag strap or a bov.

[MinimalMayhem]

I've got one of these https://www.underseatools.com/collections/rebreather-technical/products/rd1-mouthpiece-retaining-strap-mrs which cost about 50 USD posted. It uses the mouthpiece that comes with your dsv/bov. TBH it feels just as good as the draeger and I actually find it a bit easier to find the ends of the straps to tighten it than with the draeger.

[Vanny]

For AP the new version gag strap is pretty good

[WFO]

As said before, there also a downside to complete reliance on a BOV...

Who is completely relying on a BOV? Is everyone else taking the second stages off their bail out regs?

[WFO]

I've got one of these https://www.underseatools.com/collections/rebreather-technical/products/rd1-mouthpiece-retaining-strap-mrs which cost about 50 USD posted. It uses the mouthpiece that comes with your dsv/bov. TBH it feels just as good as the draeger and I actually find it a bit easier to find the ends of the straps to tighten it than with the draeger.

More like what they should cost than the hundred quid draeger!
Can you get them in UK do you know?

[Allan Carr]

When single hose DV's first came out, many of them had a gag strap. My first Dacor did. Then tehy went out of fashion.

[JonG]

I keep the 2nd stage on the cyl with my bov, it's a shrimp and exhale diaphragm is quite small so might not be great in the event of a co2 hit, plus could be contaminated with caustic etc.

[jturner]

I keep the 2nd stage on the cyl with my bov, it's a shrimp and exhale diaphragm is quite small so might not be great in the event of a co2 hit, plus could be contaminated with caustic etc.

I keep one on so that someone else could use in an emergency, I could use it as a stage when not on my CCR, and mainly because losing the mouthpiece on the BOV is going to make a royal mess of your day if that's also your bailout reg and you don't happen to have a spare with you underwater! The guy who taught my Mod2 had that last experience - his mouthpiece stem helpfully split underwater and leaked like a sieve, stopping him use his BOV in OC or CC mode. He took to carrying a vacuum-packed spare mouthpiece and cable tie on all dives so he could swap out underwater if necessary.

[WFO]

I keep one on so that someone else could use in an emergency, I could use it as a stage when not on my CCR, and mainly because losing the mouthpiece on the BOV is going to make a royal mess of your day if that's also your bailout reg and you don't happen to have a spare with you underwater! The guy who taught my Mod2 had that last experience - his mouthpiece stem helpfully split underwater and leaked like a sieve, stopping him use his BOV in OC or CC mode. He took to carrying a vacuum-packed spare mouthpiece and cable tie on all dives so he could swap out underwater if necessary.

If desperate you can just rip the mouthpiece off, not the most comfortable but you can breath.

If it's got to the point of trying to be a service technician underwater then ffs, unless you're 5 sumps into Pozo Azul or something mental then it's probably going to make your day worse messing about

[jturner]

If desperate you can just rip the mouthpiece off, not the most comfortable but you can breath.

If it's got to the point of trying to be a service technician underwater then ffs, unless you're 5 sumps into Pozo Azul or something mental then it's probably going to make your day worse messing about

It's really not that difficult, is it?!! :nod: It's a mouthpiece and cable tie, nothing more. Hardly service tech level!!! It was his choice to have it available as a Plan C (and all for the price of minimal effort and a small package to tuck in a pocket and leave it there).

[WFO]

It's really not that difficult, is it?!! :nod: It's a mouthpiece and cable tie, nothing more. Hardly service tech level!!! It was his choice to have it available as a Plan C (and all for the price of minimal effort and a small package to tuck in a pocket and leave it there).

No it's not difficult, obviously I'm taking the mick about service tech level, but you try doing anything like that underwater while already task loaded and having a bad day I think it's got just as much chance of making your day worse

I'm not sure I'd have waving a knife around 3" in front of my nose while trying to keep my buoyancy in check, while trying to keep track of the deco on a bail-out ascent, without dropping anything, as very high up the list... quite a bit further down than plan C

But sure, great to have spares

[graham_hk]

No it's not difficult, obviously I'm taking the mick about service tech level, but you try doing anything like that underwater while already task loaded and having a bad day I think it's got just as much chance of making your day worse

I'm not sure I'd have waving a knife around 3" in front of my nose while trying to keep my buoyancy in check, while trying to keep track of the deco on a bail-out ascent, without dropping anything, as very high up the list... quite a bit further down than plan C

But sure, great to have spares

It’s not difficult but I am with you. Mouth piece and cable tie in wetnotes is a clear sign of something and it’s not awesomeness 🤣

Better to have some layers of contingency and don’t put stress on your loop mouth piece and replace it regularly (you could also whip it on if you don’t want to pull it off)