Ipo

[Paul Evans]

https://divemagazine.com/scuba-diving-long-reads/accused-a-dive-instructors-wrongful-prosecution-for-manslaughter

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[wibble32]

Thank you for posting

Rgds

[gobfish1]

Finally, surfacing a low-on-air diver, and making a safety stop while air sharing, is a common occurrence in recreational diving. .

Is it . (No comment.:wait:)

[Allan Carr]

Finally, surfacing a low-on-air diver, and making a safety stop while air sharing, is a common occurrence in recreational diving. .

Is it . (No comment.:wait:)

I was surprised at that comment as well. In 58 years of diving, I've never known it to happen.

[gobfish1]

Not to mention the number of reg switching
And having one reg pulled from your mouth.
All normal in recreational diving.

IPO
It must have been lol
After all dead diver had hi blood pressure.
Was taking medication to rectify it. FFS
Diving world is full of old farts with blood pressure comes with age .

No justice no learning just insurance and who is paying or not paying .

I see 3 red flags even before the main problem .

Problem arises and you pass off the responsibility to your underling. FFS

Big deal made of the 2000 dives made. By instructor not much said about his no 2 who is now in the thick of it.
A quick look at no2
Badges seem to have be gained some time after 2015 . What.s the date when diver passed a way . Bang goes the 20 years of experience. That was talked about in court.so often.

The words swapping out is not correct. That's not what was happening.

[Allan Carr]

Going down the shot to the hydrobox is a scary experience if you are not used to deep diving. When I do the Sports Diver depth progression, I always take them down the road. I would be very concerned if someone was out of breath after a swim to the hydrobox buoy and even if I did take them down, I would be watching them like a hawk. Whenever I take someone on a depth progression dive, I am very careful and check their air consumption personally by looking at their gauge, not relying on their reading. I have seen students go through air very quickly when they get nervous at depth.

As an instructor, I find that the depth progression dives to 30/35M are the ones that require the most careful preparation and monitoring. They can be quite nerve-racking, especially with a student who is a bit nervous.

[bottle maker]

I totally agree about looking at gauges not relying on signals. If doing depth progression at stoney I go down the road. I took someone to 35 meters in Chepstow when you could dive there and said never there again..

[MarkA]

Going down the shot to the hydrobox is a scary experience if you are not used to deep diving. When I do the Sports Diver depth progression, I always take them down the road. I would be very concerned if someone was out of breath after a swim to the hydrobox buoy and even if I did take them down, I would be watching them like a hawk. Whenever I take someone on a depth progression dive, I am very careful and check their air consumption personally by looking at their gauge, not relying on their reading. I have seen students go through air very quickly when they get nervous at depth.

As an instructor, I find that the depth progression dives to 30/35M are the ones that require the most careful preparation and monitoring. They can be quite nerve-racking, especially with a student who is a bit nervous.

That was my first decompression stop dive. 5@10 & 5@5. Didn’t overdo things. My gas planning has improved a little since then, with how much it takes for 2 stressed divers at the worst part of the dive to surface safely.

[F.P.]

I was surprised at that comment as well. In 58 years of diving, I've never known it to happen.

What is the phrase - "Better to be bent on the surface rather than dead under"

[notdeadyet]

Another case where you have to wonder what value expert witnesses bring.

[Allan Carr]

Another case where you have to wonder what value expert witnesses bring.

Too often it's a case of he who pays the piper....

[Ian@1904]

Finally, surfacing a low-on-air diver, and making a safety stop while air sharing, is a common occurrence in recreational diving. .

Is it . (No comment.:wait:)I have been diving over twenty years and over 1,300 dives. I have been in gas donation situations.

I had to donate my gas after lifting someone from 45 metres, we had clocked up 17 mins of unplanned deco as a result of my buddy ignoring the dive plan, heading off and getting into serious trouble.
A team of us donated gas while diving the Thistlegorm wreck. One of the divers decided to swim hard into the current, rather than hug the deck at the end of the dive. The gas donation was very relaxed as we knew where we were, and plenty of gas around.
I have gas shared after a free flow leading to a total shutdown.

[notdeadyet]

Too often it's a case of he who pays the piper....

I would hope so or they aren't doing their jobs. You aren't going to put someone in the witness box who isn't saying what you want to hear, regardless of which side you are on. That was clear in the Andy Cuthbertson case as well. But how many people did you go through who didn't say what you wanted to hear until you found the one with a good enough CV who did? Court cases like this are about winning, not about establishing [what is most likely to be] the truth. Sadly the end result isn't good for anyone. In many of these diving cases it seems like the "expert" testimony is often a long way from the answer a reasonably competent diver would give because the voices you hear from either side are carefully chosen to tell a particular story.

I don't envy anyone in the diving industry. At least a civil case you can let the insurers fight it out. When the CPS comes knocking you don't have that luxury.

[gobfish1]

I have been diving over twenty years and over 1,300 dives. I have been in gas donation situations.

I had to donate my gas after lifting someone from 45 metres, we had clocked up 17 mins of unplanned deco as a result of my buddy ignoring the dive plan, heading off and getting into serious trouble.
A team of us donated gas while diving the Thistlegorm wreck. One of the divers decided to swim hard into the current, rather than hug the deck at the end of the dive. The gas donation was very relaxed as we knew where we were, and plenty of gas around.
I have gas shared after a free flow leading to a total shutdown.

I had
2500 plus dives under my belt and I too have been in a few gas donation situations.
I can only think of one when it was a diver In training . ( Unless it was part of training)

Young lad got a reg free flow at 30m (dotty winter)
I offer him my back Up he's not to keen to take it . So ok he's sort of happy and has air . At the moment.
I get a grip of him and head up to shallow water my reg still in hand on offer
At 6 or 7m we slow to a stop young lad is not panicking . His free flow slows as he's almost out of air he spits out his reg I offer mine .
He doesn't want to take it seems like he just excepts his fate.

I inflate him and fire him to a safe world of air .
Never once worring about a safety stop .
I have no idea why he wouldn't take the reg from me or help himself.
It was not important at the time to me
It didn't confuse me or hinder me in what had to be done .


Done plenty of shit with other divers
but
doing shit with m8s trained divers for the most part . Can't remember a time I did shit when incharge of a novice or someone in basic ish training. So I'd not say it was normal. Or a Evey day event.


Big deal made about it wasn't a out off air situation so what the diver was clearly not in a good place. You don't sit about 2nd guessing a diver that is not acting in a predictable way

Loads of red flags in the read posted by OP .
Ear problems are not alway ear problems.
Could be he's not happy from the get go.

Men are v good a inventing problem s to save face . Iv seen it loads of times over the years . Woman tend to be more honest about things. In a dive situation iv found.

I remember one guy dropping is weight belt of the side of the boat rather then say I'm not happy to do this dive . I could see he wasn't happy 40mins before the belt went over the side .

[Spindrift]

I would hope so or they aren't doing their jobs.

Except they are technically supposed to be impartial as the "duty of an expert witness is to help the court to achieve the overriding objective by giving opinion which is objective and unbiased, in relation to matters within their expertise." (Reference (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/expert-evidence))

Sadly, the truth is more what you say - they give the evidence someone pays them for.

Although I note the NCA has apparently removed Peter Faulding from the expert list. Reference (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nicola-bulley-found-peter-faulding-b2289851.html)

[notdeadyet]

Except they are technically supposed to be impartial as the "duty of an expert witness is to help the court to achieve the overriding objective by giving opinion which is objective and unbiased, in relation to matters within their expertise." (Reference (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/expert-evidence))

Yes, that's the intent. After experience of the whole "expert witness" system through work (not diving related) I think we all know how it works in reality.



Although I note the NCA has apparently removed Peter Faulding from the expert list. Reference (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nicola-bulley-found-peter-faulding-b2289851.html)

I imagine there are probably a lot of people being asked awkward questions, like how did someone in the middle of a book launch get OK'd into the highest profile missing person case in years. Not exactly a particularly great optic for something that was already a media sideshow.

[gobfish1]

Interesting
One EW from MOD

Says rule of 3rds was clearly violated.
Gets his arse handed to him by another EW
That says rule of 3rds only applies to cave and over head diving and not to this dive as a clear accent was possible.
Clearly not the case as a glass ceiling was in place . Ie the safety stop.

A valid argument but hay move on. Nothing to see here :wait:

Then for good measure through in the alcohol and drugs at the end .:(

NDY lol your fooked :rofl:

[Allan Carr]

This obsession with safety stops really worries me. Yes, wherever it is safe to do one, a stop should be done. However, in situations like this, there is no way that I would insist on doing one.


Years ago, I was diving off a South Coast shuttle boat. I had just surfaced when another diver, a young lady, surfaced in a panic. She was out of air and overweighted, struggling to stay afloat. She made no attempt to drop her weightbelt and even more surprisingly was wearing a Buddy BCD with an emergency cylinder. I swam across and inflated her BCD using that cylinder. There was no sign of her buddy who surfaced a couple of minutes later. When I asked her where she had been when her buddy was in trouble, she replied that she had been doing her safety stop and she had been taught that she must never, ever miss a safety stop. I'm afraid she got the rough edge of my tongue.

[gobfish1]

Advanced Open Water diver = ?
Not up on PADI training syllabus.
Can someone confirm total minimum number of dives to become a AOWD.
Thank you in advance.

[huwporter]

Can someone confirm total minimum number of dives to become a AOWD.

Eight open water dives total, all under instruction, excluding pool sessions. Four dives for Open Water Diver, four dives for Advanced Open Water Diver. Courses can be taken sequentially, no requirement for gaining experience in between.

[gobfish1]

I have been diving over twenty years and over 1,300 dives. I have been in gas donation situations.

I had to donate my gas after lifting someone from 45 metres, we had clocked up 17 mins of unplanned deco as a result of my buddy ignoring the dive plan, heading off and getting into serious trouble.
A team of us donated gas while diving the Thistlegorm wreck. One of the divers decided to swim hard into the current, rather than hug the deck at the end of the dive. The gas donation was very relaxed as we knew where we were, and plenty of gas around.
I have gas shared after a free flow leading to a total shutdown.

What.s the odds of say 1300 dives and 2500 dives and say eight dives under belts
Having a gas donation situations. Let's say
Not once not twice call it 3 times on one of the many dives . Or what's the odds of having say a air regular pulled/ripped from your mouth.

Lucky none of them EW had a mathematical
Interest. .
That matched the conflict of interest of some EW in this case.:x:


What's the mathematical formula to end up with
(A common occurrence in recreational diving)

I'm shite at math so fooked if I could work it out . :nerd:.

But
Just for laughs

Ian@1904
if you have 494 gas donation situations.
In that 1300 your in the ball park.
I'd need 950 ( Remember just for laughs)
As I'm shite at maths but never have I run out of air or had a reg pulled from my mouth .so can't be all bad.

This cool as a cucumber novice went through a total of 6 regs in and out .
Cool as a cucumber no panic at all.
All in a days diving
A common occurrence in recreational diving

[Mark Chase]

I had a reg ripped from my mouth during an air share on a cave course. It was a long hose and in an attempt to deploy the long hose in a confined space, the diver accidentally pulled the reg out. In fact, I tried to resist and it pulled it out of the mouthpiece. We were both highly experienced divers but training courses impose an unusual level of stress. I was just about calm enough to go back on to the main supply (my ccr). I doubt a new diver would have had it so easy.

Sad truth is zero to hero diver progression is a bad idea. I feel it's perpetuated by trips asking for AOW as a minimum, notably liveaboards from memory. I actually had loads of dives before taking AOW but I only took it because I wanted to do a liveaboard.

As a diver who has flouted all forms of training over the years, I rather hypocritically feel the current prerequisite for "advanced" diving are too lenient. I'd like to see some shallow imposed stress dives as part 1 of any AOW course. Mask ripped off, air share, buoyancy skills all on day one in shallow water to see if panic ensues.

In all my years of diving, I am constantly amazed at the number of scared or shall we say, overly nervous divers push themselves into situations they are not prepared for. For me, being in the water is a tranquil relaxing experience. Was from day 1. That's not to say incidents didn't occur that were stressful but starting from a point of in-water confidence helped them remain non-events
That's not some misplaced overconfidence, its simply decades of snorkeling and breath-hold diving leading up to putting on a tank building up a core self belief.

I don't know what happened in this case but if the report that is provided was accurate I feel I'd have aborted the dive straight to the surface at the first sign of an incident. I was at Stony when someone drowned having reached 50bar and deciding that was an OOA spitting the reg and bolting. Perhaps we give too much emphasis on the 50bar thing and it should be taught more as a reserve gas volume than a danger point. 20bar panic at less than 30m is mad. 20 bar is 240ltrs which at 50lpm is close on 5mins to get to the surface. That's an age in real-world terms.

A tragic event like this should perhaps impact on the methodology of how diving is taught.

No one is impervious to an accident and some accidents are unrecoverable, but as I have always said, if it's not fun don't do it. If you do it and you stop having fun mid-way, abort it. With that attitude ingrained into new divers, perhaps there would be fewer serious incidents.

[cathal]

I wonder what was a more likely cause of this incident, the safety stop or the cocaine and alcohol in the deceased’s system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[notdeadyet]

I wonder what was a more likely cause of this incident, the safety stop or the cocaine and alcohol in the deceased’s system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cocaine is a very short lived drug but it's still detectable after a couple of days so unless he'd had a breakfast bump I doubt that would be significant. There's no mention of what sort of blood alcohol level he had. I imagine a lot of people at Stoney that day had alcohol still detectable in their blood. There's also no mention of him having any addiction or dependency issues which I would imagine the defence would've latched on to very quickly.

Seems a bit of unnecessary speculation in lieu of any numbers.

[Neilwood]

This obsession with safety stops really worries me. Yes, wherever it is safe to do one, a stop should be done. However, in situations like this, there is no way that I would insist on doing one.


Years ago, I was diving off a South Coast shuttle boat. I had just surfaced when another diver, a young lady, surfaced in a panic. She was out of air and overweighted, struggling to stay afloat. She made no attempt to drop her weightbelt and even more surprisingly was wearing a Buddy BCD with an emergency cylinder. I swam across and inflated her BCD using that cylinder. There was no sign of her buddy who surfaced a couple of minutes later. When I asked her where she had been when her buddy was in trouble, she replied that she had been doing her safety stop and she had been taught that she must never, ever miss a safety stop. I'm afraid she got the rough edge of my tongue.

Unfortunately that will always be the case the way divers and instructors are taught (particularly in certain organisations and in certain locations). Too many instructors teach that safety stops are mandatory - whether down to ignorance or stupidity (my gut says they are trying to cover themselves legally). What should be taught is that a safety stop should be done if possible but can be missed if circumstances dictate (such as any situation where being on the surface would be the best idea such as medical incident, gas shortage, equipment issue etc).

Too many divers are taught to simply pass their certification dives and not to be able to operate as an independent diver without a DM always present.

[gobfish1]

I wonder what was a more likely cause of this incident, the safety stop or the cocaine and alcohol in the deceased’s system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's just a character assassination attempt.
And you wonder . FFS

May have a tattoo as well . Someone said

[Barrygoss]

Cocaine is a very short lived drug but it's still detectable after a couple of days so unless he'd had a breakfast bump I doubt that would be significant. There's no mention of what sort of blood alcohol level he had. I imagine a lot of people at Stoney that day had alcohol still detectable in their blood. There's also no mention of him having any addiction or dependency issues which I would imagine the defence would've latched on to very quickly.

Seems a bit of unnecessary speculation in lieu of any numbers.

We were always told to go for the Coke if on holiday in Amsterdam (not that I ever have) as the Canabis is up to 30 days in urine vs 3 days for the coke

But then the coke could always be detected up to a year later in a hair test
Alcohol is 90 days on the hair test.

So you could be talking a drink in the last 90 days and up to a year for the other stuff.

Random Drug testing at work - got to love it.

We've got a triathlete, now ex diver, who has had an IPO while diving coming to the club in March for a bit of education - based in Northampton if anyone is local

Regards

B

[notdeadyet]

It's just a character assassination attempt.
And you wonder . FFS

May have a tattoo as well . Someone said

20 years ago things were different. Today, it's not exactly unusual. A fifth of adults that admit to it. Probably more like half if you include the ones that don't. I think we could both make a long list of fairly well known people in the dive industry who like a like a little dabble :D The old IANTD shows used to have some sights at the end of the night in the 90's.


Random Drug testing at work - got to love it.

Yep, the joys of regular piss testing :)

[Paul Evans]

.

Too many divers are taught to simply pass their certification dives and not to be able to operate as an independent diver without a DM always present.

TBF the majority of divers wouldnt know any diffrent!! as has alreday been said most divers dive on holidays once a year!!


"BSAC reviewed its Incident Report database following a 2017 presentation by Dr Wilmshurst, and found that IPO may have been responsible for more than 180 incidents (not all fatal) between 1997 and 2018."

Thats quite a number if true (I have no reason to doubt it?) and would explain a lot of deaths. It should be noted that high blood pressure in the form of Pulmonary Hypertension which is difficult to detect and despite being present may not give rise to any notable symptoms until its far too late, apart from IPO!! and the first you know about that as a diver is underwater...bit late then!

For the record I have an Atrial fibrillation, left chamber and mild pulmonary hypertension (Investigations ongoing) in the right chamber, current thinking the AF has caused mild, temporary PH almost certainly caused by sleep apnea!

the two cardiologists I am dealing with think I may make a full recovery pending a catheter ablation and a 3-month series of checks after the ablation, another 8 months to wait!!:(
When I mentioned diving, they then mentioned the IPO danger! Hence my interest.

[1st Ade]

... If doing depth progression at stoney I go down the road...

There is something psychological about the route - I quit diving (for other reasons) 10 years ago, but I could quite happily go UP the tunnel at Vobster, several times a day if need be - I've aborted a dive going DOWN the same tunnel. Something to do with going DOWN into the unknown and heading for the surface THROUGH the unknown, I guess?

[Mark Chase]

I have hypertension controlled with 15mg of Lisinoprol

Ironically, 30 years ago I used to struggle to pass the medical to dive in Malta due to high blood pressure, but today id probably be fine :)

Never dived on cannabis but kind of felt it would be a great experience :)

[MarkP]

Never dived on cannabis but kind of felt it would be a great experience I'm really pathetic and haven't tried any sort of recreational drug except for alcohol.

I used to want to try a 21% O2/Ar mix on a shallow dive with buddies I super-trust. I suspect the would be like trying to suck a golf ball through a hose at depth, but the narcosis might be interesting. I think I'm past caring now...

[notdeadyet]

I'm really pathetic and haven't tried any sort of recreational drug except for alcohol.

I used to want to try a 21% O2/Ar mix on a shallow dive with buddies I super-trust. I suspect the would be like trying to suck a golf ball through a hose at depth, but the narcosis might be interesting. I think I'm past caring now...

Try carbogen, 70/30 mix of oxygen and CO2. It acts like a psychedelic, I don't know if it's ever been used underwater (can't imagine that would ever pass an ethics board).

[MarkP]

Try carbogen, 70/30 mix of oxygen and CO2. It acts like a psychedelic, I don't know if it's ever been used underwater (can't imagine that would ever pass an ethics board).I don't know... I've had an excess of CO2 and it wasn't nice. Mind you, it was only 32% 02, so perhaps that's where I went wrong.

[steelemonkey]

And on this weeks episode of "Breaking Bad " ...............

[notdeadyet]

I don't know... I've had an excess of CO2 and it wasn't nice. Mind you, it was only 32% 02, so perhaps that's where I went wrong.

I've had it a couple of times on rebreathers, both very mild, and it wasn't pleasant. I remember feeling like my entire mental ability was been taken up by dealing with it and I was right at the limits of what I could do but also felt very detached from what was going on like I was an observer. Both were very strange experiences, both came with a sense that dying was an alright option and took a hell of a lot of mental effort to actually do something useful. That and reading about carbogen experiments (people reported seeing angels and having religious experiences) left me wondering if the brain's reaction to CO2 is some kind of adaptation to make dying an easier process when the time comes. I've tried what Terence McKenna called a "heroic dose" of psilocybin and I'd rather deal with 5 hours of that than 5 minutes of CO2.

[cathal]

It's just a character assassination attempt.
And you wonder . FFS

May have a tattoo as well . Someone said

https://alertdiver.eu/en_US/articles/diving-under-the-influence


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[notdeadyet]

https://alertdiver.eu/en_US/articles/diving-under-the-influence


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just applying some very basic critical thinking...

When did he ingest the cocaine?

What was his BAC?

What effect did the impairments shown in the study have on the actual safety of the dives? It's not clear in the article. Being able to observe a loss of skill and being able to the relate that to a significant danger aren't the same. There's an alcohol limit for driving for that reason. Rightly or wrongly the lawmakers accept that there is an acceptable loss of skill before it becomes a significant danger.

The bigger worry for me is reading the abstract of the study the article cites. I don't have access to the full thing but it really is not clear from the abstract they are looking at scuba divers. To me, it reads more like they are studying swimmers diving into a pool and making contact with a hard floor. I may be wrong but there is nothing in the abstract that suggests scuba diving.

Post all the articles you like but without knowing what his BAC was, when and how much cocaine was taken, and having any hard data that associates that with a fatal outcome then you're pulling a cause of death out your arse.

[gobfish1]

https://alertdiver.eu/en_US/articles/diving-under-the-influence


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that it. You did read the link in first post .
I'm sure the defence would have made a lot more of this if they had a toxicology report that gave more information. They didn't for a reason.

Even the IPO has no medical information
autopsy report No
Hard facts No
other than his blood pressure
And difficulty in breathing .(more than a few reasons for that to happen)
IPO I'm sure the dive industry see it as another get out of jail card that can be used .
Win win for sum .
Don't matter at all in this death
A diver was distressed and don't get the attention he required. Instructor had plenty of time to access if diver was up to the task at hand . Before they ever entered the water .
( Drink and drugs observations to name a few )
The diver had multiple issues before the out of air or low air situation.

I noticed the big play on diver gave the ok back to instructor.
Means feek all
Iv seen a shit load of divers give the I'm ok
And they definitely wasn't. And I'm sure Evey diver on this forum has had the same .experience

Iv dived with smokers drinkers and old farts taking blood pressure medication . By the bucket load.
They all seem to enjoy their diving trouble free for the most part. (40 year all most)

I find your link in poor taste. / Piss take .
Do you really think divers on this forum are some what less informed than they let on .

[gobfish1]

Cathal wonder about this

The dead diver had a constant supply of air regs taken from his mouth and then reinserted in a shot time span in a stressful situation he probably didn't know what feeking day it was. This was a guy with maybe only 8 previous dives . If you give a out of air diver a working reg with gas / air and I know it's working fine and the problem is still there you know right of the bat something else is going on . You know right a way you can only do one more thing your out of options. It's fresh air and a nice Vue.
Not a 3 minute delay
No need for the multiple reg swapping . Must have been a wonderful thing to experience as you gasp for air .

I'm sure the instructor and his no2 did their best .

But it should be said . It wasn't good enough
And there for something should be learnt form it at the very least.

Think I'm done with this now.
stay safe.

[Paulo]

IPOs are not very well known about generally as I understand it anyway. I had an opportunity to expereince an autopsy a few years ago (gruesome, not recommended for the faint of heart) and asked the Chief State's Pathologist about how they would diagnose an IPO because I knew a diver that had recently survived one. They did not know what it was so I had to explain my idiot's understanding of it. They told me that if they found a diver in the water with water in their lungs that had died during a dive, the cause of death would be written up as drowning but that they would now do some research into the matter as it was not something that they were aware of.

This was a pathologist with a hell of a lot of expereince and it is within the last decade so hopefully things have moved on a bit since then.

[gobfish1]

20 years ago things were different. Today, it's not exactly unusual. A fifth of adults that admit to it. Probably more like half if you include the ones that don't. I think we could both make a long list of fairly well known people in the dive industry who like a like a little dabble :D The old IANTD shows used to have some sights at the end of the night in the 90's.



Yep, the joys of regular piss testing :)

Stop it I'm having flash back s
Of snake oil. deck chairs swimming pools and 45 minute CCR course s lol :D:D
Cash for Badgers

https://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQ

[Paul Evans]

Stop it I'm having flash back s
Of snake oil. deck chairs swimming pools and 45 minute CCR course s lol :D:D
Cash for Badgers

https://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQI just had flashback to deeparmchair 😃

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Paulo]

I just had flashback to deeparmchair ��

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Unless you can get a Mod 3 ticket from a swimming pool you have not earned your ticket!

[Paul Evans]

It's fresh air and a nice Vue

Absolutely Epic :giggle:

[Paul Evans]

Unless you can get a Mod 3 ticket from a swimming pool you have not earned your ticket!

the deep end ?? :rolleyes: