Intersorb 812 vs Sofnolime 787 on a Revo

[Wibs]

On a Revo using RMS, is there any difference in dive time between Sofnolime 787 and Intersorb 812?

Any reasons for not using 812? There's a 30% difference in price between the two!

[Vanny]

Pass on revo. From an AP perspective the temp stick is calibrated To sofnalime 797 so alternative lime doesn’t give an accurate reflection on use. Advice to AP users having to use alternative lime (only when 797 isn’t available) is to drastically reduce time on the scrubber.
Again I wouldn’t look to scrimp on Diving a unit if revo specify 797 use 797.

[Paulo]

On a Revo using RMS, is there any difference in dive time between Sofnolime 787 and Intersorb 812?

Any reasons for not using 812? There's a 30% difference in price between the two!

What does the manual say to use or do you presume to know more than the manual?

[Barrygoss]

On a Revo using RMS, is there any difference in dive time between Sofnolime 787 and Intersorb 812?

Any reasons for not using 812? There's a 30% difference in price between the two!

It's like you don't know about your unit's manufacturer http://www.revo-rebreathers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/intersorb812.pdf

so you get less time, now you need to do the math on cost v duration of the two

B

[IainC]

797 lasts about 30% longer spherasorb, according to available research on the inspo, so the cheaper 'sorb is false economy :-) Use it if you can't get anything else, but knock 1/3rd off the time

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304627548_The_duration_of_two_carbon_dioxide_absor bents_in_a_closed-circuit_rebreather_diving_system

Intersorb is for industrial/refinery use (from the same company as spherasorb) https://www.hydrocarbons-technology.com/products/soda-lime-intersorb-spherasorb/

[Dave1w]

797 lasts about 30% longer spherasorb, according to available research on the inspo, so the cheaper 'sorb is false economy :-) Use it if you can't get anything else, but knock 1/3rd off the time

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304627548_The_duration_of_two_carbon_dioxide_absor bents_in_a_closed-circuit_rebreather_diving_system

Intersorb is for industrial/refinery use (from the same company as spherasorb) https://www.hydrocarbons-technology.com/products/soda-lime-intersorb-spherasorb/


This research was 797 against Spherasorb. (I think done because Spherasorb was widely used?) which isn't apples to apples. Spherasorb is different (bigger granules) to the 812 Divelime, which is similar(ish) sized to 797. The size of the granules makes a difference. Ideally we would see a comparison of 797 against Divelime 812 and Mol Products CD grade against Spherasorb.

There has been the research done by rEvo who were happy enough to publish guidelines and I am sure I once saw a test by AP diving on 797 v Divelime 812, where the basic outcome were small difference in warm water (10%) and a bigger difference in cold water 15% 25%? The key thing being that the Tempstick on the Inspo isn't as useful indicating life left in 812 as it was designed against Sofnolime. I'm not sure about how RMS works with it.

Bottom line is 797 is a superior chemical, but Divelime is getting closer to the point the price difference "may" be worth it, if as in my case you usually manage to put 2 hours on a scrubber then bin it.

[Paulo]

What is the price difference?

I paid £70 for 797 this time last year

[Barrygoss]

What is the price difference?

I paid £70 for 797 this time last year

£60 a tub from Divelime, including delivery to uk mainland

B

[Wibs]

What does the manual say to use or do you presume to know more than the manual?

You can read it yourself in the press release http://www.revo-rebreathers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/intersorb812.pdf

"DIVELIME and rEvo announce that Intersorb® 812 is approved for use in rEvo Rebreathers

DIVELIME, the UK based distributor of dive grade soda lime Intersorb®812 and rEvo Rebreathers, the Belgium based manufacturer of the rEvo II and rEvo III closed circuit rebreathers (CCR) have announced that Intersorb® 812 has been approved for use in all versions of rEvo’s rebreather products.

Intersorb® 812 is an 8 –12 mesh (1.0–2.5mm) dive grade soda lime manufactured in the UK by Intersurgical, and distributed by Premier Chemicals Ltd via their subsidiary DIVELIME.

rEvo Rebreathers have recently evaluated Intersorb® 812 in tests according to the EN14143 standard. Based on the results of these tests, rEvo are approving Intersorb® 812 for use in their rebreathers, with the following recommendations:
• Water temperature 4°C to 15°C – Recommended** maximum dive time 2hrs 30minsor one cycle every 1hr 45mins
• Water temperature 15°C (or above) – Recommended** maximum dive time 4hrs 30mins or one cycle every 3 hours

The 2.50kg total fill weight (1.25kg per scrubber canister) for Intersorb®812 combined with its competitive price makes Intersorb® 812 a very cost-effective solution for rEvo users. Intersorb® 812 is available in 2 pack sizes – 5 litre (4.5kg) Jerricans, and 20kg kegs.

**recommendation is based on constant O2 consumption of 1.33l/min at 30RMV (at 40m depth, with air diluent, and minimum 1.25kg scrubber material in each canister). No assumption should be made for longer durations because of eventual lower oxygen consumption."

[Wibs]

£60 a tub from Divelime, including delivery to uk mainland

B

That's for a 20kg tub of Intersorb 812, not (or I can't find it on their site) Sofnolime 787. Hence my question.

[Paulo]

You can read it yourself in the press release http://www.revo-rebreathers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/intersorb812.pdf

"DIVELIME and rEvo announce that Intersorb® 812 is approved for use in rEvo Rebreathers

DIVELIME, the UK based distributor of dive grade soda lime Intersorb®812 and rEvo Rebreathers, the Belgium based manufacturer of the rEvo II and rEvo III closed circuit rebreathers (CCR) have announced that Intersorb® 812 has been approved for use in all versions of rEvo’s rebreather products.

Intersorb® 812 is an 8 –12 mesh (1.0–2.5mm) dive grade soda lime manufactured in the UK by Intersurgical, and distributed by Premier Chemicals Ltd via their subsidiary DIVELIME.

rEvo Rebreathers have recently evaluated Intersorb® 812 in tests according to the EN14143 standard. Based on the results of these tests, rEvo are approving Intersorb® 812 for use in their rebreathers, with the following recommendations:
• Water temperature 4°C to 15°C – Recommended** maximum dive time 2hrs 30minsor one cycle every 1hr 45mins
• Water temperature 15°C (or above) – Recommended** maximum dive time 4hrs 30mins or one cycle every 3 hours

The 2.50kg total fill weight (1.25kg per scrubber canister) for Intersorb®812 combined with its competitive price makes Intersorb® 812 a very cost-effective solution for rEvo users. Intersorb® 812 is available in 2 pack sizes – 5 litre (4.5kg) Jerricans, and 20kg kegs.

**recommendation is based on constant O2 consumption of 1.33l/min at 30RMV (at 40m depth, with air diluent, and minimum 1.25kg scrubber material in each canister). No assumption should be made for longer durations because of eventual lower oxygen consumption."

So why ask us if you already know. The info you pasted is copied directly from Barry's link

[Wibs]

What is the price difference?

I paid £70 for 797 this time last year

Sofnolime 797 is currently £75 + ~£9.50 delivery = £85.
Intersorb 812 is currently £60 inc delivery = £60, i.e. a third cheaper.


I've just discovered that Custom Divers are quite close to me, so I may as well drive over and grab a few kegs.

[Wibs]

So why ask us if you already know. The info you pasted is copied directly from Barry's link

Yes, I pasted it because you asked:

What does the manual say to use or do you presume to know more than the manual?

If you knew this already, why snipe that?

[jturner]

Sofnolime 797 is currently £75 + ~£9.50 delivery = £85.
Intersorb 812 is currently £60 inc delivery = £60, i.e. a third cheaper.


I've just discovered that Custom Divers are quite close to me, so I may as well drive over and grab a few kegs.

If you're planning on diving a CCR but want to scrimp on little costs like this, I'd sell the CCR if I were you. It will be cheaper and safer in the long run. They're unforgiving mistresses who don't like you being cheap with them and are creative in getting their revenge.

[Barrygoss]

That's for a 20kg tub of Intersorb 812, not (or I can't find it on their site) Sofnolime 787. Hence my question.

Sofnolime is manufactured by molecular products and from custard divers would cost £77 a tub delivered - the "better product"
Intersorb 812 is manufactured by Intersurgical and has their shop front via Divelime - £60 a tub.

I assumed that as you were asking why not use the cheaper material @ £60/tub that was the stuff you were interested in.

So if a 2.5kg fill in a revo of 797 lasts 3hours or cycle at 2 hours = £77/20 x 2.5 = £9.63 for 3 hours, £4.82 for a cycle, = 5.4p/minute, 4.02p / minute cycling

and a 2.5kg fill of 812 lasts 2.5hours or cycle at 1hr 45 mins = £60/20 x 2.5 = £7.50 for 2.5hours, £3.75 for a cycle = 5p minute, 3.6p/minute cycling

is it worth 0.42pence per minute of worry? buy one less pint of an evening and don't worry about it.

that's before you get into the wasted lime from dumping half used lime as it's a big dive next dive.

B

but now bear in mind the WOB differences between the 1.0mm-2.5mm granules and the shapes of the granules - 797 being triangular and the porous tubes of the 812

[Paulo]

Barry, I think you know you are wasting your breath

[Wibs]

I'm absolutely not scrimping. I literally wanted to know the difference. Some very good information in this thread from @IainC, @Dave1W and @Barrygoss,

And I got the bloody price wrong, 797's £67.50/keg + delivery, not £75/keg.

I'm putting an order in for a few other divers so hopefully we'll get the 5+ keg price and I'll drive over to collect them to cut out the delivery price (if anyone's interested in Mid Sussex/Brighton, PM me).


(Am currently loving the freedom of CCR. It's so much cheaper to run, so much easier to lug around, so much more flexible, so much better in the water. Just wonderful. Am an exceedingly happy bunny.)

[Paulo]

Cheaper to run? You are qualified about 3 weeks, you cannot be beyond air dils yet. How is it cheaper to run an air dil than an OC air dive?

[colinicky]

Ok so now throw in the fact that Wibs asked about units with RMS which there is no data from rEvo about with either lime to my knowledge .
Also in the absence of scientific controlled tests there are to many other variables with “anecdotal “ evidence .
Personally I have dived both & to be honest I notice no real difference BUT as Barry says throw in variables of dumping half used before a big dive ( What is a big dive ?) .
I dive Scapa Flow in April & normally don’t change until the Tuesday night on my rEvo with RMS so one full change job done .
I agree if you are worrying about a couple of quid then you should not be diving CCR .

Unfortunately things change . I remember in the days of RBW starting I asked questions like this & even sillier ones but I was never talked down in the replies like happens know . So come people help people progress & learn . I know some of you don’t like Wibs but this is also happening to other people as well & is why a lot of the older members are no longer posting & people like John Routley refuse to come on forums anymore & give us the benefit of their vaste knowledge which is a loss to us all

[Wibs]

Oh perllease...

It's lugging around a fecking twinset with stages. Just take two 70 min 30m dives; you'd need at least an air top on the twinset if not bring two with you. Have been managing about three dives of those 30m levels leaving plenty of O2 and dil (and suit inflate) and using a single scrubber. FYI a twinset 32% fill is £10 to £20 and a stage or two of 80% at least a tenner.

The benefit's not carrying all those poxy cylinders around. Having my fully loaded box (2x3 litre, a 2 litre suit inflate, a big battery) plus a 7 litre stage hung off is far far lighter than a poxy twinset without the stage(s).


Alas with the 30m dives, there's not that much deco to do, the best I've managed is 25 mins on a 100min dive. Have some mildly deeper dives coming up which should get more of a deco curve to play with.

[jturner]

Unfortunately things change . I remember in the days of RBW starting I asked questions like this & even sillier ones but I was never talked down in the replies like happens know . So come people help people progress & learn . I know some of you don’t like Wibs but this is also happening to other people as well & is why a lot of the older members are no longer posting & people like John Routley refuse to come on forums anymore & give us the benefit of their vaste knowledge which is a loss to us all

Speaking for myself, I wasn't "talking anyone down", just stating a cold hard fact. I don't know Wibs so whether I would like him/her is of no importance. But rebreathers are cost a decent chunk to keep. I recall many people on here pointing out that unless you used to do a lot of hypoxic trimix dives on OC (and I mean a lot, not just the odd one now and then), you won't save money on a CCR. You just transfer the cost to other things. I didn't believe that at the time but it has turned out to be at least mostly correct (just like the people who said just dive the unit as-is for a year or so before making any changes. I've undone nearly all mine now and the unit is virtually back to stock condition). So yes, you could say that journey of discovery has taught me some important lessons; the problem is that the most important lesson is that I don't know anywhere near as much as I thought I did, and most of the crap I felt was worth trying or "could be handy" turned out to be more trouble than it was worth and created new problems. It's almost like the unit's designers and the other posters have already gone through it... Perhaps I should have listened even when the posters were suggesting my ideas wheren't that good after all. Maybe they should have been more blunt, as the message didn't get through.

If someone wants to try to save the odd few quid here and there by bending limits and proven tested guidelines, that's the individual's lookout. If that person is knowledgeable and experienced, they are probably in a better position (such as someone I know who tested his APD Evo scrubber to see how far it would run before breaking through in his local conditions - about 9 hours IIRC. Don't try it at home) but we all don't know what we don't know. I would suggest that there is a big difference between a cost saving and value. I'm lucky so didn't need to try to save a few quid on lime. At least one person I know of who always was trying to save every last penny by cutting corners ended up paying with his life for the experiment - they didn't know as much as they thought and tried to balance that cost v value equation and got it wrong. Nothing radical, just little cut corners here and there. Classic normalisation of deviance stuff. I doubt they're the only one.

[colinicky]

I always look at things as “ I know enough to be dangerous” . And as my tag line says :)

[witchieblackcat]

Sofnolime 797 is currently £75 + ~£9.50 delivery = £85.
Intersorb 812 is currently £60 inc delivery = £60, i.e. a third cheaper.


I've just discovered that Custom Divers are quite close to me, so I may as well drive over and grab a few kegs.

You want to find like minded friends and buy in bulk. If done right you can get Sofnolime to about £65 a tub delivered (although you will have to buy 32 in one go).

Intersorb as has been said isn't as good as Sofnolime. This is particularly relevant when it's cold.

[gobfish1]

Apart from stupidity not much to push a CCR diver from the loop . Flood full set of duff cells and of course the co2 hit. Only one of the above is going to make you humping big cylinders around for the rest of your diving life.
Co2 is a unknown, even planed action still has you thinking is my gas reserves enough . Unknown s I try to avoid. What you do is up to you . Enough info about to make your choice .

Ps
99% or my diving used to be one fill one dive .
Same with batteries on a week's trip I'd toss old one s and always started with new . Even if it wasn't needed . Frame of mind is just as important as having all the toys.

Lol I had set plans for stupidity a flood or shity cells .

My plan for co2 is get the feek out of dodge . Not that good a plan really put it's all I could think off.

(avoid the problem as best you can )

Whats your plan .

[Brad_Horn]

On a Revo using RMS, is there any difference in dive time between Sofnolime 787 and Intersorb 812?
Yes. But who know what as no testing has been done (published).
But in addition and what hasn't been touched on in this thread is that there can be a significant difference in dive time with the same sorb. Happy to be corrected as there is a scarcity of clarity in the scrubber durations published for the rEvo. And as such you don't know if it is the best or worse case. Within that 10'C temp bracket quoted there can readily be a 60min difference in available scrubber duration and a variability of easily 20+min for repeated runs of the same test with granular absorbent.

Some good background reading of very basic material about scrubber duration variances that will be covered in any half decent CCR training course at:
https://www.ccrexplorers.com/community/threads/how-long-will-your-scrubber-canister-last-article-by-john-clarke.13337/
https://johnclarkeonline.com/tag/scrubber-canister/
Fig 13 pg 231 of the proceedings https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/research/conference/2008TechnicalDiving/index.htm

[WFO]

If you're planning on diving a CCR but want to scrimp on little costs like this, I'd sell the CCR if I were you. It will be cheaper and safer in the long run. They're unforgiving mistresses who don't like you being cheap with them and are creative in getting their revenge.

I think that's a little unfair.
Using intersorb to a conservative limit... versus using 797 right up to the recommended limit (or even right up to the RMS guessimates)... who is scrimping?

Buying a mega complex mega expensive say boris... versus a kiss... who is scrimping? (but who is more likely to die?)

The whole idea that throwing more money at a problem = safe and something cheaper = dangerous is in my opinion bollox.

[WFO]

but now bear in mind the WOB differences between the 1.0mm-2.5mm granules and the shapes of the granules - 797 being triangular and the porous tubes of the 812

I'd be interested to read anything published about the differences there if you have any links etc please

[jturner]

I think that's a little unfair.
Using intersorb to a conservative limit... versus using 797 right up to the recommended limit (or even right up to the RMS guessimates)... who is scrimping?

Buying a mega complex mega expensive say boris... versus a kiss... who is scrimping? (but who is more likely to die?)

The whole idea that throwing more money at a problem = safe and something cheaper = dangerous is in my opinion bollox.

You're putting words into my mouth, assuming I meant something I didn't, but I suppose you hadn't read the later post at the time you replied. I'd agree with your last statement to a certain extent, but that wasn't what I was talking about. 797 lime is widely available and well tested. Why bother using something cheaper that appears to have a lower performance level even if you dive it conservatively? Where's the benefit? How much is it actually going to save you in real terms? If 797 wasn't widely available, that might be different. But do those few pence matter that much, and will that cost pressure not also be present when making a decision other areas of CCR diving such as about a potentially dubious or aging cell, or choice of gas mix for bailout etc?

[Wibs]

From the noob... This has been a very educational thread. Have learned that there is a considerable difference in scrubber durations between 797 and 812. Also that there’s not a great deal of difference in price if collecting and buying more than 5 kegs.

Thus, for me, it’s a no-brainer: use Sofnolime 797.

Thank you to everyone who contributed.

[Dave1w]

It probably good to have had this discussion, as with the easy availability of 797 in the UK, no one really gives a thought to what happens when you have to use something else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barrygoss]

From the noob... This has been a very educational thread. Have learned that there is a considerable difference in scrubber durations between 797 and 812. Also that there’s not a great deal of difference in price if collecting and buying more than 5 kegs.

Thus, for me, it’s a no-brainer: use Sofnolime 797.

Thank you to everyone who contributed.

Yes, but this thread has also disturbed me.
Knowing how you didn’t pass fundies,
I gave you a hint to work out wether the cheaper lime was worth it. Yet you waited till it was explained to agree. Rule six.
You’ve admitted to 25 mins deco on an air dil, on a no deco CCR ticket.
I’ve a set of qc6’s male and female here as spares right hoses lengths and adapters in my spares box. Stuff mod 1 isn’t there for.
Mod 1 = if in doubt bail out.

When CCR goes naughty. You die. Questions are good, but knowing you. Rule 1

B

[Wibs]

Yes, but this thread has also disturbed me.
Knowing how you didn’t pass fundies,
I gave you a hint to work out wether the cheaper lime was worth it. Yet you waited till it was explained to agree. Rule six.
You’ve admitted to 25 mins deco on an air dil, on a no deco CCR ticket.
I’ve a set of qc6’s male and female here as spares right hoses lengths and adapters in my spares box. Stuff mod 1 isn’t there for.
Mod 1 = if in doubt bail out.

When CCR goes naughty. You die. Questions are good, but knowing you. Rule 1

B

When you were at junior school, you were completely useless and had no knowledge nor skills. Are you still completely useless or have you learned anything since?

Have you ever dived with me or do you know someone who has in the past, say, 3 years? How can you be in a "remote" position to make judgements on other people's skills?

As it happens, most of my current CCR diving has been with reasonable deco obligations and most of my dives are solo. The "ticket" has no relevance, the knowledge and skills gained through diving practice are all that matters. My diving with CCR is conservatively planned where the bailout will get me to the surface with plenty spare. Every dive I bail out. I'm very closely monitoring the unit and running it manually with eCCR backup (aka hCCR) in order to understand how O2 & dill injection changes things. I'm also doing a *lot* of sea diving, way more than most people on here are.


The point of these discussions are to gain knowledge from the vast experience of other divers on this forum. If one cannot ask these questions without getting sniped at, what's the point of this forum? For a bunch of old farts pontificating on how great they are/were?

[WFO]

Just remember the early dives are quite safe because you're paranoid it's when you're a good way into it that it will bite you on the arse

Beware the time when it starts to seem routine and easy

[gobfish1]

old farts pontificating on how great they are/were

Lol I'd best keep my head down :D

Not a lot of dive related post on this forum at the mo
So I'm happy to see someone posting something that's of interest.

[Wibs]

Just remember the early dives are quite safe because you're paranoid it's when you're a good way into it that it will bite you on the arse

Beware the time when it starts to seem routine and easy

Thank you for that reminder— a really good point.

[gobfish1]

Just remember the early dives are quite safe because you're paranoid it's when you're a good way into it that it will bite you on the arse

Beware the time when it starts to seem routine and easy

As the compressor man is fond of saying
Not a lot of ybod dive see 13 Christmas cards
I got a few more than that .

[Paulo]

For a bunch of old farts pontificating on how great they are/were?

I think you have just proven Barry's point

[witchieblackcat]

As it happens, most of my current CCR diving has been with reasonable deco obligations and most of my dives are solo. The "ticket" has no relevance, the knowledge and skills gained through diving practice are all that matters. My diving with CCR is conservatively planned where the bailout will get me to the surface with plenty spare. Every dive I bail out. I'm very closely monitoring the unit and running it manually with eCCR backup (aka hCCR) in order to understand how O2 & dill injection changes things. I'm also doing a *lot* of sea diving, way more than most people on here are.

I don't think I'd consider solo dives with reasonable deco obligations conservatively planned...

[Paulo]

I don't think I'd consider solo dives with reasonable deco obligations conservatively planned...

3 weeks after Mod 1 ;)

[WFO]

I don't think I'd consider solo dives with reasonable deco obligations conservatively planned...

When I first put mine together I tried to stick to 10 dives to 10m, 20 dives to 20m, 30 to 30.... etc etc.
When I overstepped the marks on that seemed to be the times I had things go wrong and ended up shitting myself. Wrong side of the learning curve.

I won't judge any one based on how many days/weeks since mod 1 lol, when I did my mod 1 i had as many hours on unit as the instructor :rofl:

[Wibs]

Now have over 25 hours on the unit. Spent today’s 2 hour dive swimming inside a tanker for about 45 mins - much more interesting than a mine! So that’s solo, deco and overhead.

Now looking for a cave/wreck shield for the Revo. It’s covered in rust — as am I — from crawling through some tight spaces.

How was your dive today?

[witchieblackcat]

Out of interest, what bailout did you carry?

[Paulo]

Now have over 25 hours on the unit. Spent today’s 2 hour dive swimming inside a tanker for about 45 mins - much more interesting than a mine! So that’s solo, deco and overhead.

Now looking for a cave/wreck shield for the Revo. It’s covered in rust — as am I — from crawling through some tight spaces.

How was your dive today?

It is your attitude that is your most endearing feature

[Wibs]

Out of interest, what bailout did you carry?

21%. 30m

[Vanny]

How was my dive , great thanks 4mtr Pootle looking at fish crabs and lobby’s. Son was in the water with a dolphin at the end of the dive , friendly chap. Our mate the dolphin joined us on our wreck dive last weekend , I thought another diver had crashed in between us looked round to find a big eye looking at me. Ccr buoyancy and dolphins don’t go well together.

Don’t rush them hours like a fine wine they need time to mature.

[gobfish1]

Now have over 25 hours on the unit. Spent today’s 2 hour dive swimming inside a tanker for about 45 mins - much more interesting than a mine! So that’s solo, deco and overhead.

Now looking for a cave/wreck shield for the Revo. It’s covered in rust — as am I — from crawling through some tight spaces.

How was your dive today?

Noddy 2 booked yet.
My first sea dive after Noddy one was 57m 2hour run time I think had a weekend at dotty to practice with dry suit as did the course in red sea . In between copious amounts of alcohol and food .

[Barrygoss]

Now have over 25 hours on the unit. Spent today’s 2 hour dive swimming inside a tanker for about 45 mins - much more interesting than a mine! So that’s solo, deco and overhead.

Now looking for a cave/wreck shield for the Revo. It’s covered in rust — as am I — from crawling through some tight spaces.

How was your dive today?

That’s like 11/12 ascents?

Fuck it crack on. You didn’t fail fundies through skill. But attitude, and that hasn’t changed.
Oh 797 can absorb 150l of co2 per kg. You breathe 0.8l of co2 per min (that’s why the o2 flow rate is set there)
Now work out your scrubber capacity and crack on

Pretty sure gobbers could do that maths on his first dive from the old mod 1.

You know best

B

[gobfish1]

Had the ap manual long before the Noddy one and it's in the book .
Had the ybod sat at home for two year also. Lots of fettling.
I can get about
2 5 time whats recommended
On my O2 consumption and co2 production. So I just round down to twice The time if all thing are constant.

Noddy 1
Had to dumb down so instructor and other lad / instructor that was doing the Noddy 1 with me could keep up and stay happy.



No one likes a smart arae
My oc try mix instructor told me that back in 93

I got 100% on the paper test he maked my paper at 96% and when I pulled him over it he gave me the above advice it's been worth a lot more that what I payed for the oc mixgas training .

[Paulo]

Noddy 2 booked yet.
My first sea dive after Noddy one was 57m 2hour run time I think had a weekend at dotty to practice with dry suit as did the course in red sea . In between copious amounts of alcohol and food .

Where as I waited 3 years to go beyond 45m or 20m of deco and waited 5 years to dive a proper Malin Classic

[gobfish1]

Not saying it right . Just go at a pace that's suits
I'm not big on the dive police . Or other people s rules. And I take full responsibility for my actions .

I figured if it all went south I was just be back on oc and I'd had 12 years of twins and two or 3 side mount s ( plus two years diving oc with CCR divers as buddy's )
So sticking a reg in wasn't hard . Practiced 60m bail out s in dotty on 7l cylinders along with getting to play with CCR in dry bag.

Feeker it up a few times like but that's how you learn just try keep the k,-up s
Small lol

Noddy I was ok. But I learned a lot more from doing and reading. Watching other divers . Even the shit divers have something to learn from ie don't do it like them lol

[colinicky]

You breathe 0.8l of co2 per min (that’s why the o2 flow rate is set there)

B

Not on my rEvo it’s not .
Barry I agree with you about ascents it is the easiest part of the dive ........to screw up completely.

[Wibs]

That’s like 11/12 ascents?

Fuck it crack on. You didn’t fail fundies through skill. But attitude, and that hasn’t changed.


Here you go on about Fundies again... Over five years ago and you're still banging on about it. Unlike many people on here, I didn't come into diving until later in life and only have a handful of years of diving ahead of me, so I need to move on quickly.

Fundies was superb because it demonstrated the importance of the core competencies which cannot be gained on a single course as they require a lot of practice time to develop. Fundies also revealed the regimented almost military style of team diving that is GUE's way, e.g. strict team etiquette, only use permitted standard kit, no modifications, no computers, your backup is on your team-mate, etc. Diving's supposed to be fun, and whilst it's good to see synchronised diving teams in action, it does take away the simple joy spending time playing with blennys or rumaging around in a wreck, or even the zen solitude of a decompression ascent.

Come to think of it, BSAC's a bit like that. All that 'officer' needs to give permission, form filling, glacial adoption of new systems, repetitive buddy checks, short runtimes, sub-optimal gasses, etc.


I enjoy diving. It's fun to go out on a boat, enjoy the craik, have a dive, then hand the boat back afterwards. I've found that most of the people I dive with are independently minded, enjoying the diving but not needing nor wanting to dive as a buddy pair, nor an associated club. For independent diving you need the diving skills, redundancy, plus planning skills. It seems that all of these "diving friends" have the same attitude. In fact many of the people on this forum are like that.


CCR is a logical next step to bring many benefits to my future diving, but these come at a cost in terms of new skills and understanding. Most of the existing open circuit skills and knowledge are transferable, with the re-learning of the buoyancy core skill. Of course CCR has a lot of new skills to practice which needs time and effort to master, mostly regarding how the unit works, how it's monitored, and what to do when there's issues. This requires a process of investment in training and most importantly getting time on the unit with a steady progression.

With CCR, if everything went tits-up, a bailout ascent is going back to open circuit (with another bag of gas). What could be more simple than that? Planning the bailout is essential, especially when pushing runtimes. Having one, two or even three bailouts is just like diving with a twinset.


Personally I like to read and absorb as much information as possible, especially about future techniques as will be required for the deeper dives. That I've only just done MOD1 is irrelevant -- it's sole purpose was to set the skills development process.

FYI, the push is to get the hours -- and ascents -- done in rapid order this season whilst the weather lasts. Have hit the 25 hour mark within a month of diving CCR. The intention is to get to 50 hours by the end of September. 50 hours seems to be the consensus for moving from 'novice' into 'intermediate', with a raft of caveats -- complacency kills, it'll bite you, etc.

The recent dives were all around 30m. Some decompression done, but the curve's rather flat. Now want to dive the <40m range which to generate more decompression and sorting out the bailouts -- optimise one, but start playing with two bailouts in preparation for the <50m range after. Will also start looking at more optimal gasses, the effects of adding helium to the diluent. Any puddle diving will focus on setting up the sidemount bailout config, plus using bigger tins.




Oh 797 can absorb 150l of co2 per kg. You breathe 0.8l of co2 per min (that’s why the o2 flow rate is set there)

So you're saying everyone's got the same metabolic rate?

Having two scrubbers also changes things. Being able to accurately monitor scrubber usage is also useful especially in build up diving, i.e. understanding how much scrubber's left.

[colinicky]

So you're saying everyone's got the same metabolic rate?

Having two scrubbers also changes things. Being able to accurately monitor scrubber usage is also useful especially in build up diving, i.e. understanding how much scrubber's left.

Just to point out that it obviously helps to know the calculation because if you are half way through your third dive when your RMS goes bye bye and you new at the start of the dive how much scrubber you had left at the start then you can work out how much you should have left . Although if the RMS has gone then I would be questioning the accuracy of it to start with . And before Wibs says yes I have lost RMS on both scrubbers in one dive

[Iain Smith]

GUE's way...take[s] away the simple joy spending time playing with blennys or rumaging around in a wreck, or even the zen solitude of a decompression ascent.


Wrong, wrong...and wrong.

Fundies, however, is not about doing any of those things. Nor, in fact was any of the other GUE courses I’ve done. They were bloody hard work to earn a ticket to go forth and apply what one had learned.

Passing the course, coming out with kit that just works and future buddies with whom one is on exactly the same page before one has ever met makes those simple moments easier to find.

Except for CCR1. CCR1 was a ticket to go forth and continue to try to suppress quarter-of-a-century of OC muscle memory! But...I was quite happily gazing at tompots on my most recent CCR dive. The bottom phase is now (almost) “easy” (with the caveat of remaining aware that I’m breathing from a box of electronics submerged in salt-water, which has novel ways of killing me).

CCR ascents, however, are not yet up to my previous standards. It will be a little time before I find those particular zen-like moments again!

[Wibs]

Just to point out that it obviously helps to know the calculation because if you are half way through your third dive when your RMS goes bye bye and you new at the start of the dive how much scrubber you had left at the start then you can work out how much you should have left . Although if the RMS has gone then I would be questioning the accuracy of it to start with . And before Wibs says yes I have lost RMS on both scrubbers in one dive

The great thing about the RMS is it does show you the consumption rates which you can use when planning "the next dive"; change scrubber or not.

I'm still changing scrubber more often than I need to -- as it's only 1.3kg, it's not that expensive :-)

[dwhitlow]

Here you go on about Fundies again... Over five years ago and you're still banging on about it. Unlike many people on here, I didn't come into diving until later in life and only have a handful of years of diving ahead of me, so I need to move on quickly. Why only a few years? I also got into diving relatively late (PADI OW at 48) and have no plans on giving up any time soon.

Yesterday, at a youthful 63, I may have been the oldest on the boat but still completed (exactly) the 2 hour dive I told the skipper I planned. Unfortunately, my contemplation of plankton was interrupted every 5 minutes by a low battery warning I needed to suppress :yawn: Must dig out the mp3 player for the next dive!

[MikeF]

Come to think of it, BSAC's a bit like that. All that 'officer' needs to give permission, form filling, glacial adoption of new systems, repetitive buddy checks, short runtimes, sub-optimal gasses, etc.



BSAC is not like that. BSAC is a few people in head office and council. The clubs that are affilliated to BSAC can pretty much do whatever they want including telling BSAC to go forth.

The trouble with clubs is that they have their own cultures and when the committee changes the 'rules' sometime change. I suspect your issue was more with a particular club and particular committee than BSAC. I've been in three BSAC branches. None of them had clipboards and permission bollocks for experienced divers but the brakes were occasionally applied to people that had no experience but thought they knew better and were god's gift to diving.

Sometimes they'd wise up but often they eventually left feeling disgruntled that nobody else recognised their awesomeness and everyone breathed a sigh of relief and carried on as they were.

[witchieblackcat]

BSAC is not like that. BSAC is a few people in head office and council. The clubs that are affilliated to BSAC can pretty much do whatever they want including telling BSAC to go forth.

The trouble with clubs is that they have their own cultures and when the committee changes the 'rules' sometime change. I suspect your issue was more with a particular club and particular committee than BSAC. I've been in three BSAC branches. None of them had clipboards and permission bollocks for experienced divers but the brakes were occasionally applied to people that had no experience but thought they knew better and were god's gift to diving.

Sometimes they'd wise up but often they eventually left feeling disgruntled that nobody else recognised their awesomeness and everyone breathed a sigh of relief and carried on as they were.

The two BSAC clubs I've been a member of are pretty relaxed as you say and there's not a lot of paperwork going on.
The officers of both clubs rarely do more that a suggestion that thinking again would be a good idea... oh and go diving.

[Vanny]

Yeah ditto that. The GUE guys I’ve seen recently on scimitar seem really happy , not oppressed or regimented. My BSAC club is chilled , it has to be I’m the chair and just wanna go diving not do or see others doing paperwork or poxy rules. You need to get out more.

[gobfish1]

Got to say the few gue guys iv even meet
Had me laughing all day. V likeable fellows.

oppressed or regimented. Don't know where you pick up some of your thinking . But it would serve you well to at least keep what you think about others to your self . It dose you no favours.
We are trying to warm to you but your not making it easy . It just highlights your lack of experience.

Ps
I watch the gue video s
On knob twiddling and cylinder swaps and dsmb
And hay it's not bad.
But Id give one of them 500 quid if they can keep that good trim as they hammer and chisel a port hole of a wreck at 60m on air lol or even a mix .

Different skill sets that's all

[Wibs]

Got to say the few gue guys iv even meet
Had me laughing all day. V likeable fellows.

oppressed or regimented. Don't know where you pick up some of your thinking . But it would serve you well to at least keep what you think about other to your self . It dose you no favours.
We are trying to warm to you but your not making it easy . It just highlights your lack of experience.


It was a comment on team diving & training, not a comment on the people who are all very nice, nor their exemplary skills.

[jturner]

It was a comment on team diving & training, not a comment on the people who are all very nice, nor their exemplary skills.

Train hard, fight easy.

[Tribal Chestnut]

Some/many people enjoy training.

[Doomanic]

The most enjoyable part of any of the training I did was at 3m on the last ascent of the last dive of Fundies when Garf showed me this;

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200814/567ae4f64f6e754339b4cd5ab0e09528.jpg

Tech Pass baby!

[Paulo]

The most enjoyable part of any of the training I did was at 3m on the last ascent of the last dive of Fundies when Garf showed me this;

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200814/567ae4f64f6e754339b4cd5ab0e09528.jpg

Tech Pass baby!

I think he meant that technically you had scraped a pass :D

Well done though. Not a mean feat

[Tribal Chestnut]

I’ve had an idea...

[WFO]

Come to think of it, BSAC's a bit like that. All that 'officer' needs to give permission, form filling, glacial adoption of new systems, repetitive buddy checks, short runtimes, sub-optimal gasses, etc.


Sorry would you mind enlightening me as to where exactly in the SDC's I would find the "max run time" commandment or the passage stating "thou shalt use this gas"?



and only have a handful of years of diving ahead of me, so I need to move on quickly.


I suspect my mate had that thought process going on.
I also suspect that was why he was on a trip to a very deep iconic wreck, arguably somewhat early in his ccr days.

Least his funeral was very well attended.

[Mark Chase]

On a Revo using RMS, is there any difference in dive time between Sofnolime 787 and Intersorb 812?

Any reasons for not using 812? There's a 30% difference in price between the two!


TOTALY depends on your typical diveing

SO if I were going red sea and maxing the scrubber at say 6 hours total run over three dives in a day all 30-40m id want 787

But I don't. Generally id do a 2 hour or 3 hours deep dive on a scrubber and bin it after for a fresh fill. So i go the cheaper 812 rout

deepest dive I ever did 5 1/2 hours max 115 m was on 812 but only 45mins was at below 50m (possibly less id need to check) and hours were above 20m

When I had a KISS i used Spherasorb to keep the WOB to a minimum. I was doing 7-8 hours on a fill over multiple cave dives on a sorb that's supposed to be way less effective than 787 but I was in warm water, my avg SAC is 12 and max depth was 14m if I remember correctly avg around 6m?


WHen deciding on a sorb there needs to be a bit of logical thaught.

Some will do two 50-70m dives on a single fill of 797 with the dives days or even weeks apart in UK temps??

I never felt comfortable doing that, but id do 8 hours on spherasorb shallow over 3 dives in a day or over two days in warm water because I felt I understood the issues that affected scrubber duration.

I survived C02 hit free, but I have no idea how close to a failure I ever was.

PS Inspo and mt Parker haad a habit of stating as fact that any item used on their CCR which they didn't sell and make a profit on would make the unit instantly fail explode or burst into flames :D

They said this about Narked at 90 cells till they gave up trying to make their own and started using Narked at 90 ones :)

Temp stick calibration to their own lime is a situation where id ask is the diver going to push the dive to the temp stick to the point its a real issue?

[Mark Chase]

Yes, but this thread has also disturbed me.
Knowing how you didn’t pass fundies,
I gave you a hint to work out wether the cheaper lime was worth it. Yet you waited till it was explained to agree. Rule six.
You’ve admitted to 25 mins deco on an air dil, on a no deco CCR ticket.
I’ve a set of qc6’s male and female here as spares right hoses lengths and adapters in my spares box. Stuff mod 1 isn’t there for.
Mod 1 = if in doubt bail out.

When CCR goes naughty. You die. Questions are good, but knowing you. Rule 1

B

The good old Dive Police :D

They always make me smile.

When CCR goes naughty you die?

Is that like when you end a dive with less than 50 bar your head explodes :D


Generally, when my CCR got naughty I was thinking OK can I still finish the 3 hour dive without using my bailouts, or I was thinking, Bugger how much is that going to cost :)

15 years on CCR, many many issues on several 100s of dives and only one full OC bailout due to an unbreathable flooded loop on a rEvo

OH an a OC bailout on a KISS due to caustic coctail (forgot that one)

[Mark Chase]

The most enjoyable part of any of the training I did was at 3m on the last ascent of the last dive of Fundies when Garf showed me this;


Tech Pass baby!



Ahhhhhh DIRF? So good I did it twice :D

Great course especially with Garf.

Doing the first DIRF course with Rich Walker defo changed my stile of diving and focused my attention on streamlining and looking good and squared away.

Mock that if you will, but I saw Rich walker in the water and said to my self, I want to look that good :D

[MikeF]

Generally, when my CCR got naughty I was thinking OK can I still finish the 3 hour dive without using my bailouts, or I was thinking, Bugger how much is that going to cost :)

15 years on CCR, many many issues on several 100s of dives and only one full OC bailout due to an unbreathable flooded loop on a rEvo


I had very similar thoughts this week, stay on the loop and save some gas whilst wondering what I was actually breathing (it's amazing how all those cool options you have in your head when sat in your armchair go straight out of the window when you realise that you don't have a clue what the gas you're breathing is anymore and it's a long way back to the shot and even further back to the surface) vs bail off onto a known gas and chill out whilst working out what it was going to cost. I decided that as the same gas had sat in that deco tin unused for 10 years I may as well crack it open and see if the flavour had improved, as averaged over the hundreds of dives I've carried it and not used it, it was going to be remarkably cheap on a per dive basis.

Maybe I'm just shit at this and should have stayed on the loop but sometimes it seems like people will desperately try to stay on the loop long after they should have said bollocks to this and used that gas they've been lugging about all that time for just such an occasion.

It did remind me how dry your mouth gets on long OC deco though.

[Barrygoss]

The good old Dive Police :D

They always make me smile.

When CCR goes naughty you die?

Is that like when you end a dive with less than 50 bar your head explodes :D


Generally, when my CCR got naughty I was thinking OK can I still finish the 3 hour dive without using my bailouts, or I was thinking, Bugger how much is that going to cost :)

15 years on CCR, many many issues on several 100s of dives and only one full OC bailout due to an unbreathable flooded loop on a rEvo

OH an a OC bailout on a KISS due to caustic coctail (forgot that one)

Dive police? From me a lad that taught himself to dive a kiss?

Nah. If you’d looked

He’s a lad with just m25 hours, not dives or accents who is now by his own admissions on his own forum.
Diving mix and doing solo penetration with deco. On the breather he doesn’t understand the flood tolerance of.

His fundies, failure from Garf was attitude. Skills was secondary.


Tbh

He’ll only take himself with his current diving.

Not bothered.

B

[Wibs]

Dive police? From me a lad that taught himself to dive a kiss?

Nah. If you’d looked

He’s a lad with just m25 hours, not dives or accents who is now by his own admissions on his own forum.
Diving mix and doing solo penetration with deco. On the breather he doesn’t understand the flood tolerance of.

His fundies, failure from Garf was attitude. Skills was secondary.


Tbh

He’ll only take himself with his current diving.

Not bothered.

B

And the point of these supercilious tirades is?

[Barrygoss]

And the point of these supercilious tirades is?

Word of the day? Learnt a big word and trying to use it in every sentence, even when it’s not appropriate?

The point is.

I’ve lost too many friends diving. People with more hours, better attitudes and better risk identification skills than you.

I don’t want to have to go through it all again

B

[Mark Chase]

Sorry Barry, It was as light-hearted dig

I thought teaching your self to dive a KISS was compulsory :D

FOnd memories of diving the KISS on the Moldavia with Mark Powel on the boat

Mark asked me what i thought of the KISS?

I said id let him know after the dive as I hadn't dived it yet :)

Two hours and a fantastic lobster later I was a big fan :D

Mark was still shaking his head :D

Happy days.

[colinicky]

Dive police? From me a lad that taught himself to dive a kiss?

Nah. If you’d looked

He’s a lad with just m25 hours, not dives or accents who is now by his own admissions on his own forum.
Diving mix and doing solo penetration with deco. On the breather he doesn’t understand the flood tolerance of.

His fundies, failure from Garf was attitude. Skills was secondary.


Tbh

He’ll only take himself with his current diving.

Not bothered.

B

So it was perfectly alright for you to go & dive a unit with no instruction at all but not somebody who has actually done a course ?
Personally I dived mix on my mod1 inspo course ... so what . I wasn’t even qualified for mix on OC !
What good is diving as a buddy unless the buddy understands your unit ? ( Yes there is a case for GUE standardisation in there somewhere ) yes I dive a rEvo but I won’t dive with anybody . As somebody on this thread told me 1 day “ you can dive around me but not with me as the only people I will help in a diving situation is the wife & kids “
I don’t see what having his own forum has to do with anything ? He’s actually had the forum for a few years now but never advertised the fact.
Your not bothered ? So why keep digging at him on every thread he posts on ?
In the polite version Barry “ F.O.C.U.S “

[Paulo]

You could see it as constantly digging at him, or you could see it as trying to outline how poorly thought out some ideas are and how far off some attitudes are.

At the end of the day, people are free to do pretty much as they please and free it accept decades of experience or to ignore it as they know better

[Wibs]

It is far better to determine an idea's bad on an internet forum than it is to discover it's bad whilst diving.

Returning to the subject of this thread... Have just stocked up on 797 after realising that the 812's not so good for cold water diving. Also bought enough kegs to get the price down to £63 and collected them en-route to a dive.

[Paulo]

How many kegs did you need to get the discount?

[dwhitlow]

It is far better to determine an idea's bad on an internet forum than it is to discover it's bad whilst diving.

Returning to the subject of this thread... Have just stocked up on 797 after realising that the 812's not so good for cold water diving. Also bought enough kegs to get the price down to £63 and collected them en-route to a dive.
Being able to collect is a bonus and makes it much simpler to operate alone. Last time I looked it was £11 to ship each single keg.

My recent orders have been group buys. The last one I paid £75 for delivery of a pallet (32 kegs). With shipment it worked out at £62.50 per keg.

[Wibs]

You need 5+ for the discount - £63.30. They're in Redhill M25/M23.

[Doomanic]

If you're sensible with swapping it out that lot won't last long with the amount of diving you do. I got through 2.5 kegs in the year I dived CCR.

[Vanny]

I expect custom divers and 5.