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Wibs
15-10-2019, 10:57 PM
Is there any likelyhood of the Kiss Sidewinder 'sidemount' rebreather becoming CE certified? (as if that's not a moot point!)

Has anyone used one; what's it like? It looks wonderful in the water, as all the best demos would. There's something about sidemount in the water looking supremely slick; streamlined, well sorted, etc. If anyone's tried one, whats it like to don and doff? Is it a massive faff, or just different, as is sidemount to backmount.

Now the daft question; would this be a feasible purchase for a first rebreather? Would this work OK in the sea on wrecks as well as underground? Who would do the training? Where to purchase? Can it be imported? Anywhere to do trial dives?

JonG
16-10-2019, 05:09 AM
Best to ask your later questions on a US forum like SB. There was a thread recently where a few comments were made about the SW alluding to the fact that it's a bit of a PITA in cold water due to the extra elements required like suit heaters, deco cyls if deep, suit bottles if on mix etc.

I'll see if I can find the thread, but if you are on SB a member by the name of rjack dived one in caves mainly and is realistic about it's pros and cons.

Forget CE tho!

JonG
16-10-2019, 05:26 AM
https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/new-to-rebreathers-what-do-you-recommend-based-on-this.584507/

JonG
16-10-2019, 05:32 AM
In Europe the closest match seems to be the Triton if u need CE/instructors. I think Martin Robson was hoping to start teaching on the Lungfish too but not heard anything recently.

I like the look of the SW and Triton but getting hold of the former would be problematic and cost of the latter is high IMO.

cathal
16-10-2019, 04:35 PM
The cost of the CE testing process to EN 14143 appears to be the main inhibiting factor as well as the thorny issue of what to do if your unit fails the tests as I understand there are 52 separate tests in the process.

ScottyG
16-10-2019, 05:13 PM
Speak to Patrick Widmann or Edd Sorenson.....

Wibs
16-10-2019, 08:18 PM
Am currently doing research for my future box. I'll be buying one to last me the rest of my diving career.

The Sidewinder's been mentioned in lots of places I respect. Just on videos alone, I love the idea of diving flat and streamlined. It's staggering how awful some rebreather divers look in the water, be that seahorse trim or vertical bailout tins. It's a joy to see those Edd Sorenson videos where he's diving a rebreather as if it's sidemount.

As I've never had a rebreather, I've no opinion on Manual v. Auto, although I do quite like the simplicity and discipline of Manual.

One of the videos of the Sidewinder I've seen did have someone with two small cylinders mounted transversely on their bum. If nothing else, it was still missing the suit heater and torch batteries, but it's not particularly streamlined if transversely mounted.

Its almost as if it could do with three or four long and thin cylinders strapped vertically to our back (OK, one or two are batteries). It is backmounted, although would be much lower than any back-mounted rebreather.

JonG
16-10-2019, 08:59 PM
Seen this Wibs, Edd talks about training in France:

https://youtu.be/GeIni49ZHcM

cathal
16-10-2019, 09:06 PM
Bear in mind when picking a backmount CCR for open water diving, what works well in a cave does not always work well in the sea. If it has no T’s in the loop such as in the Inspo, JJ, Meg etc, when you’re vertical you’ll get hamster cheeks such as when your waiting on the surface to be picked up because the DSV is above the level of your lungs or if your head down, you won’t be able to breathe as the DSV will be below the level of the lungs. From a rEvo diver!

Barrygoss
16-10-2019, 09:08 PM
Sf2 has a side mount option and is CE

(Posting on behalf of Kim ;) )

B

WFO
17-10-2019, 11:04 AM
Looks to me like an interesting bit of kit but a lot of a problem looking for a solution.

Small scrubbers are likely to have a high work of breathing compared to more conventional units with a big scrubber so they aren't going to be the best tool for deeper dives
Sidemount is faffy and the rig looks to have a lot of stuff going on with it
Too complicated and too many parts for caving


Buy something more conventional to learn how to dive one and then if you want one of these get one bought.

You'd probably have to fly to somewhere to get training on it, but really once you learn how to dive a rebreather and how they work, they're all much the same.

WFO
17-10-2019, 11:09 AM
Bear in mind when picking a backmount CCR for open water diving, what works well in a cave does not always work well in the sea. If it has no T’s in the loop such as in the Inspo, JJ, Meg etc, when you’re vertical you’ll get hamster cheeks such as when your waiting on the surface to be picked up because the DSV is above the level of your lungs or if your head down, you won’t be able to breathe as the DSV will be below the level of the lungs. From a rEvo diver!

Hydrostatic work of breathing isn't affected by whether you've got T pieces or not, it's just a function of difference in water column between counterlungs and lungs.
The T piece units work reasonably well all round because there's space for a lump of gas on top of the shoulders while at the surface.
On mine (JJ style BMCLs) you do get slight hamster cheeks on the surface at the end of exhalation, it's not noticeable when submerged (probably a function of how much the wing is inflated).


About the worst design you can think of for this is the SF2, seems madness to me to put the counterlung right at the bottom of the unit where it's going to create biggest hydrostatic problems as soon as you're not in ideal trim for it.

cathal
17-10-2019, 11:17 AM
Hydrostatic work of breathing isn't affected by whether you've got T pieces or not, it's just a function of difference in water column between counterlungs and lungs.
The T piece units work reasonably well all round because there's space for a lump of gas on top of the shoulders while at the surface.

The degree of ‘Hamster cheeks’ that you experience when vertical are a direct correlation of whether there is a direct gas path to your mouth from the lungs and the position of the lungs relative to your mouth. It is an extremely common phenomena. Just read up on any of the user forums for the SF2, rEvo etc.

MikeF
17-10-2019, 11:38 AM
Am currently doing research for my future box. I'll be buying one to last me the rest of my diving career.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

WFO
17-10-2019, 11:45 AM
The degree of ‘Hamster cheeks’ that you experience when vertical are a direct correlation of whether there is a direct gas path to your mouth from the lungs and the position of the lungs relative to your mouth. It is an extremely common phenomena. Just read up on any of the user forums for the SF2, rEvo etc.

If there is no path for gas flow then unit is going to have some serious function problems whether you are on surface or not ;)

Vanny
17-10-2019, 12:44 PM
I’d take a think about your primary use for a unit. If it is cave/restricted access talk to guys doing this on ccr and see what the options are. If its more towards your sea diving then consider who you may buddy and what they dive. Diving a more uk mainstream unit , Inspo , JJ etc is easier to ask for advice / spares when your out diving. OC side mount can be interesting on hard boats , I’d wonder if kitting up in side mount ccr with bailouts etc , undertaking a pre breath , buddy Check , might prove interesting , certainly could be fun to watch.

NWdiver
17-10-2019, 01:15 PM
Support, from the community as well as the manufacturer, is a huge thing.

With genuinely no disrepesprect meant here... you're diving seems pretty run of the mill. Embrace that and buy a unit that other people use. It makes everything a hell of a lot easier. AP units / JJ's are everywhere. I could borrow one of about 8 heads within 10 miles of me right now and save a weekends diving.

My advice woulf be to not make this any harder than it needs to be... We all know that you will though

Vanny
17-10-2019, 01:24 PM
Absolutely that. The transition to ccr is interesting enough , albeit throughly enjoyable, without setting even more hurdles.

cathal
17-10-2019, 08:53 PM
About the worst design you can think of for this is the SF2, seems madness to me to put the counterlung right at the bottom of the unit where it's going to create biggest hydrostatic problems as soon as you're not in ideal trim for it.

Regarding hydrostatic problems on an SF2, a dive buddy of mine had to switch to bailout every time he went head down on his SF2 sidemount unit. He said he literally could not get a breath from it with his head down.

Wibs
17-10-2019, 11:08 PM
Thanks for all the great info here. The Sidewinder thought has been put back on the 'that seems like a good idea' shelf.

ScottyG
18-10-2019, 07:10 PM
interesting blog on the side winder

http://www.protecblog.com/?fbclid=IwAR10FaoIX1bmQAxFqRqNfk9uIrcr1VDG-JrR2PGaE-W0GwKbYvFWnO6gIqM

Dave1w
18-10-2019, 11:29 PM
I have the back mounted spirit for travel, which is a huge difference compared to my JJ, and even the Classic Kiss. Extremely lightweight. WOB concerns with the two smaller scrubbers is compensated for by the lungs wrapping around your torso to some extent, and it is a really nice unit to dive. And very very simple.

For this one I got insulated scrubbers, not the heated ones, but hear they are pretty good in the cold with the heated ones. I don’t really fancy the sidewinder because I don’t do caves or side mount. But see a lot of extreme looking dives done on them.
Not going to go CE I would think.

People have take them very deep but I’m not bothered about that. Weighing less than a 12 and a pony is quite good.


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Mikael
20-10-2019, 05:56 PM
How do people feel about CCR's that have only a dedicated 02 cylinder and use the bailout cylinder to double up as dil for the unit?

JonG
20-10-2019, 06:52 PM
Pretty common set up in cave community tbh, some load a 2nd 02 cyl where dil was for redundancy on BM units, I guess once you know ave dil usage per exposure you can allocate gas reserves accordingly and have a strict pressure at which you refill.

The larger dil volume is usually part of the design to cater for sawtooth profiles which chew through dil.

Mikael
20-10-2019, 09:53 PM
Pretty common set up in cave community tbh, some load a 2nd 02 cyl where dil was for redundancy on BM units, I guess once you know ave dil usage per exposure you can allocate gas reserves accordingly and have a strict pressure at which you refill.

The larger dil volume is usually part of the design to cater for sawtooth profiles which chew through dil.

Here my ignorance of CCR will no doubt show. A first stage failure on the bailout could render you without access to dil where as a more conventional setup would give you some redundancy (either onboard supply or bailout depending on which failed). I am thinking in general terms, not specifically cave.

Dave1w
21-10-2019, 06:54 AM
If you are doing it properly you will also have another bailout


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JonG
21-10-2019, 10:21 AM
Most SW units will have 2 bailouts of the same mix 1 if which runs dil too, deco stages as required are then added as required along with suit cyl if trimix usually.

MattJ
08-11-2019, 10:24 AM
Here my ignorance of CCR will no doubt show. A first stage failure on the bailout could render you without access to dil where as a more conventional setup would give you some redundancy (either onboard supply or bailout depending on which failed). I am thinking in general terms, not specifically cave.

I understand certain UK cave divers using large combined Dil / bailouts use a Y valve - again there is still a single point of failure (neck o ring) but pretty low probability.

JonG
08-11-2019, 12:17 PM
Dave did u import the kiss spirit, how hard was it if u did, got a real yearning for a SW to go with my Classic

Wibs
08-11-2019, 01:17 PM
The excellent Speaking Sidemount Podcast covers Steve Martin's training on his first rebreather - a Kiss Sidewinder - with Ed Sorensen.

Excellent to hear all those really interesting things such as flat, streamlined trim, crawling through restrictions by taking tins off, resistance to flooding.

Really impressed with what I heard about the rig!

The video's the mutts gnutts - given that Steve - the guy being videoed - has only just completed his initial training using the rig. From all the diving I've done with people on rebreathers, none of them have ever looked this good in the water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3bKNmXERKQ
https://www.sidemountpros.com/speakingsidemountpodcast


Really beginning to ponder that this rig really is a contender for my first (and last) rebreather for general purpose diving.

So who's the UK trainer for the Sidewinder?

Dave1w
08-11-2019, 03:27 PM
The excellent Speaking Sidemount Podcast covers Steve Martin's training on his first rebreather - a Kiss Sidewinder - with Ed Sorensen.

Excellent to hear all those really interesting things such as flat, streamlined trim, crawling through restrictions by taking tins off, resistance to flooding.

Really impressed with what I heard about the rig!

The video's the mutts gnutts - given that Steve - the guy being videoed - has only just completed his initial training using the rig. From all the diving I've done with people on rebreathers, none of them have ever looked this good in the water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3bKNmXERKQ
https://www.sidemountpros.com/speakingsidemountpodcast


Really beginning to ponder that this rig really is a contender for my first (and last) rebreather for general purpose diving.

So who's the UK trainer for the Sidewinder?

Wibs, as far as I know, Jacek K in Poland is the only instructor in Europe.


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Dave1w
08-11-2019, 03:28 PM
Dave did u import the kiss spirit, how hard was it if u did, got a real yearning for a SW to go with my Classic

Yeah, not difficult, I’ll send you a PM


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Wibs
08-11-2019, 03:38 PM
What kind of level of bureaucratic grief would one face if taking the course in Florida and bringing the rebreather back into the UK?

Or, put it another way, if one were to purchase one in Europe where there's no import duties and VAT equality, and was flying out to the 'States, would you make sure that you've packed the receipt for the return journey? (That's a _serious_ question too)

Dave1w
08-11-2019, 03:51 PM
Well, it would be scratched a little bit, and used. And fit in hand carry


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ScottyG
17-10-2020, 07:13 PM
Here my ignorance of CCR will no doubt show. A first stage failure on the bailout could render you without access to dil where as a more conventional setup would give you some redundancy (either onboard supply or bailout depending on which failed). I am thinking in general terms, not specifically cave.

I run the dual Mav on my Sidewinder which allows me to run Dil to feed ADV or add it manually. Likewise I can change the feed out to come from left or right tank. It is simply a LP connection...

Barrygoss
17-10-2020, 10:36 PM
What kind of level of bureaucratic grief would one face if taking the course in Florida and bringing the rebreather back into the UK?

Or, put it another way, if one were to purchase one in Europe where there's no import duties and VAT equality, and was flying out to the 'States, would you make sure that you've packed the receipt for the return journey? (That's a _serious_ question too)

No.
Kim would never forgive us. Kiss divers get “the talk”

B

Paulo
18-10-2020, 02:32 PM
No.
Kim would never forgive us. Kiss divers get “the talk”

B


"Dont make us look stupid by getting killed"?

Barrygoss
18-10-2020, 07:41 PM
"Dont make us look stupid by getting killed"?

“Don’t get dead, it’s embarrassing and will embarrass Kim”

So pretty much 🤣

B

WFO
19-10-2020, 07:33 AM
CCR instruction from the days before fisher-price units and needing a guru to sign you off on being competent to go for a piss, or buy an o ring