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Dave1w
19-01-2019, 02:43 PM
I guess this is as good a place as any. Just saw this

https://www.mares.com/en-PH/horizon/




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Wibs
19-01-2019, 10:49 PM
What's the point of it? Don't you still have most of the "technical" issues of a rebreather -- cleaning, filling, costs, monitoring -- but without the possibility of using Helium, etc.

Shirley this isn't going to be used by a novice non-technical diver?

Wouldn't a normal rEvo be capable of being run like this?

Dave1w
19-01-2019, 11:38 PM
I started on dragers yonks ago, but that was a stepping stone. Iíd be interested to see what this amounts to, is it any better than the Hollis?

Does it look like a shearwater handset?

I wonder if perhaps this is what a new rEvo CCR may look like?


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colinicky
20-01-2019, 05:49 AM
Break down here :- https://youtu.be/jwvnPc80BJk
FB more here :- https://www.facebook.com/groups/855364507834600/1975335612504145/?comment_id=1975668972470809&reply_comment_id=1975686512469055&notif_id=1547909189890059&notif_t=group_comment_mention

Is it Shearwater or is this a sign that Shearwater will disappear from rEvos when Mares finalise their take over ? The BOV for the rEvo looks really nice & apparently breaths better than the original DSV :)

Dave1w
20-01-2019, 08:42 AM
Is it me, or does the design of the lungs look very much like the rebreather that shall not be named, with a rEvo ish scrubber fitted in the middle.

I wonder if it will spawn a CCR version.


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Paulo
20-01-2019, 08:53 AM
Is this the price rEvo paid for a Mares buyout?

colinicky
20-01-2019, 09:14 AM
Is it me, or does the design of the lungs look very much like the rebreather that shall not be named, with a rEvo ish scrubber fitted in the middle.

I wonder if it will spawn a CCR version.


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Have never seen the unnamable one so cant comment but must admit i wondered if a CCR version will follow.

colinicky
20-01-2019, 09:15 AM
Is this the price rEvo paid for a Mares buyout?

rEvo ( Paul Raymaekers ) isnt going to worry about that if he got the price he wanted, unfortunately people think manufacturers are loyal to customers !!!!!

jturner
20-01-2019, 09:31 AM
What's the point of it? Don't you still have most of the "technical" issues of a rebreather -- cleaning, filling, costs, monitoring -- but without the possibility of using Helium, etc.

It's just a semiclosed rebreather, available for hire from multiple SSI (and other) dive centres around the world. It is relatively cheap but from what I hear, it is expected that it will be rented by most people. From what I hear about operation, it is pretty simple to use with a setup designed to remove most of the chances to mess it up. As a hire unit, the cleaning isn't your problem!

cathal
20-01-2019, 10:36 AM
Iím no rEvo fanboy but itís important to bear in mind this SCR is a Mares product sold by Mares. rEvoís role was in its development, technology and probably its Instructor network as well. Other than that, the rEvo is the same as it was on Friday, nothing has changed except the addition of a BOV, plus one or two other accessories (stand) etc.

Wibs
20-01-2019, 12:41 PM
It's just a semiclosed rebreather, available for hire from multiple SSI (and other) dive centres around the world. It is relatively cheap but from what I hear, it is expected that it will be rented by most people. From what I hear about operation, it is pretty simple to use with a setup designed to remove most of the chances to mess it up. As a hire unit, the cleaning isn't your problem!

Sorry to appear completely dumb on this...

What's the point? I don't understand the term "extended range" in this context: it's neither deeper nor lots longer than a twinset would give. Yes, it's lighter as in you've 10:1 extension of gas (is it that much?), but it's not using high levels of O2 to make deco efficient, and the market "recreational" by definition means not deco trained.

Happy to accept that if I have to ask, I don't understand!

jturner
20-01-2019, 02:12 PM
Sorry to appear completely dumb on this...

What's the point? I don't understand the term "extended range" in this context: it's neither deeper nor lots longer than a twinset would give. Yes, it's lighter as in you've 10:1 extension of gas (is it that much?), but it's not using high levels of O2 to make deco efficient, and the market "recreational" by definition means not deco trained.

Happy to accept that if I have to ask, I don't understand!

Extended Range or XR is the SSI series of courses that are effectively "tech lite". Intro trimix and that kind of thing, max depth 45m etc. This SCR would fit right into that niche within SSI's world ie not "proper techie" but not Padi AOW level either. Mares produce a line of gear using the XR branding to make it look more techie I suppose. As for performance, I've not seen any figures but effectively it is like all other SCRs (of which almost all have gone from the market) I would think it's fair to assume, so 2 hours plus on a typical dive. It is also silent or almost silent anyway, and a lot less fiddly to set up than a CCR. So all in all, think hire units for those who want to try something new, extend their time at depth or who are photographers.

Now we can argue for days about whether or not that makes it a waste of time when you could do all that with a twinset of nitrox. As a CCR user, I'd say why bother with a twinset of nitrox when I could do the dive with my CCR, that weighs far less and provide many other advantages?! I only use a twinset when I must. But at the end of the day, I don'tt think it is being sold at people like us but more the well-off holiday divers who want to have a play on something new that gives them loads of time in the water, is nice and quiet etc etc.

Spinal
20-01-2019, 02:44 PM
First a disclaimer or two... I've never dived a rebreather. I've looked at them, but the added cost, complexity and weight have always made me shy away. I dont consdier myself a technical diver, I can teach rec, and have done the tecrec50 course for the knowledge. That said, I dont deco-dive often enough, so now I avoid it entirely as I don't have a chance to keep my skills up to speed.

Now, all that said... this looks interesting to me.

It's light, I can travel with it, and I don't need to have a cylinder in my suitcase if I got it correctly. In fact it appears not to have a cylinder on the back at all... more like sidemount rebreather... There appears to be only one tank, so no diluent + O2, but just the nitrox... I have no idea how it "controls" the level of O2 as it would appear to just scub your nitrox as you breathe it... but it does look interesting to me as a way to extend my bottom time.

thetrickster
20-01-2019, 04:14 PM
Ooooh another solution looking for a problem.

Sorry to appear down, it greats to see investment still being made in new gear and technology in diving.

But havenít we been down this road at least 4 times before in the last 20years and none gained any serious market traction.

With the two recent entires, the Explorer being dropped like a hot potato and the MK6 making easy diving hard.

Would prefer if Mares spent some serious money on a modern twin hose reg, that have good WoB - that would please a lot of photographers and probably sell well too


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Wibs
20-01-2019, 10:39 PM
@jturner - that makes sense in terms of marketing, etc.

I'm completely with you regarding CCR and twinsets. I'm most definitely CCR curious, but won't be diving one until I can clear the budget. Once I do, it'll be in both feet first.

I can see that an SCR is far more simple than CCR as the O2 variation's a lot less and won't be above MOD (assuming the right gas in the cylinder), so the O2 monitoring is just to look for low, not excessively high. If there's a problem, the system can simply to switch to open circuit. In other words it's a lot less to learn in order to use one of these units than a full CCR with its myriad ways of killing you.

Interesting how "extended range" means different things to different people. My definition is extending from basic 45m down to 60m, definitely different from Mares' definition.

Wibs
20-01-2019, 10:44 PM
Would prefer if Mares spent some serious money on a modern twin hose reg, that have good WoB - that would please a lot of photographers and probably sell well too

Why is it so hard to dump the gas behind you? Wouldn't it be possible to put another flexible hose on a reg and let the bubbles float around?

Wasn't the original "DV" from Caustau's days designed like that as it meant using only a single stage, unlike the first & second stage of today's regs? ISTR my dad diving in the 60s with Spiro kit that looked almost like a CCR. Not sure, but think there were other ones where the bubbles came out in front of you?

JonG
21-01-2019, 05:23 AM
Would prefer if Mares spent some serious money on a modern twin hose reg, that have good WoB - that would please a lot of photographers and probably sell well too




https://vintagedoublehose.com/store/#!/Argonaut/c/8222661/offset=0&sort=normal

jturner
21-01-2019, 07:34 AM
Ooooh another solution looking for a problem.

Sorry to appear down, it greats to see investment still being made in new gear and technology in diving.

But havenít we been down this road at least 4 times before in the last 20years and none gained any serious market traction.

With the two recent entires, the Explorer being dropped like a hot potato and the MK6 making easy diving hard.

Would prefer if Mares spent some serious money on a modern twin hose reg, that have good WoB - that would please a lot of photographers and probably sell well too

I'm not a SCR fan I have to say, so I'm inclined to agree to some extent. The Mk6 isn't really in this camp so should be discounted and the Explorer... well, was the Explorer. I'm not sure how much these things will catch on. They use far more standard gear, which is something I suppose. I doubt we'll see many in the UK but perhaps in the far east or Maldives at high-end resorts?

I'm definitely not a fan of twinhose regs though. They are a solution looking for a problem as you put it! ;-)


@jturner - that makes sense in terms of marketing, etc.

I'm completely with you regarding CCR and twinsets. I'm most definitely CCR curious, but won't be diving one until I can clear the budget. Once I do, it'll be in both feet first.

I can see that an SCR is far more simple than CCR as the O2 variation's a lot less and won't be above MOD (assuming the right gas in the cylinder), so the O2 monitoring is just to look for low, not excessively high. If there's a problem, the system can simply to switch to open circuit. In other words it's a lot less to learn in order to use one of these units than a full CCR with its myriad ways of killing you.

Interesting how "extended range" means different things to different people. My definition is extending from basic 45m down to 60m, definitely different from Mares' definition.

Mares are just producing gear to get into the tech market and they needed a tag, and given they are closely associated with SSI, it made sense to use their terminology: https://www.divessi.com/en-IC/highlights/extended-range/

Strictly speaking, anything beyond 40m and into overhead environments would count as XR or TXR courses and XR seems to be being used as the cover-all tag (it used to be XR and TXR). Whatever the tag used, what they are getting at is that this SCR is not a pure recreational diving tool but slightly beyond that. I imagine that there will be a more advanced model coming out before long.

thetrickster
21-01-2019, 07:44 AM
https://vintagedoublehose.com/store/#!/Argonaut/c/8222661/offset=0&sort=normal

Whoa!! Thanks for this! Might have to save some pennies...!

UnCheeky Monkey
21-01-2019, 08:06 AM
Isn't this just a bit of kit which allows someone nitrox trained to dive longer / quieter within normal recreational depths ? And allows a second mix for accelerated deco ? I'm struggling to see the objection...

I may have misunderstood but does it not really add something as an option for people like myself - BSAC accelerated deco ticket, typically dive indie twins, all diving above 40m, not enough time to learn and keep current on CCR. Is it not a useful half way house for people like me who'd like more bottom time without a manifolded twinset ? Educate me ......

Dave1w
21-01-2019, 09:15 AM
Diving a rebreather, SCR or CCR is pleasant once you forget all the hassle. The dolphin was fine for what it was, was a different experience than OC, and at one point, just about all that there was, although lots of people reckon they were a waste of time. Most times its easier to get O2 and Air rather than nitrox here, but have found overseas that nitrox is more readily available. If you get 3 or 4 hours out of an al80 of nitrox, that could perhaps cover the cost of the 2 kg of sorb?

Not sure how good the explorer thing is, they would have to have had a good look at that while developing this you would hope.

Neilwood
21-01-2019, 12:20 PM
Not a RB diver so shoot me down if you wish but I had a thought on this.

Isn't one of the problems with "extended range" diving not that with a huge increase in dive length (if 10:1 gas extension is correct) that the dive will extend into deco by a fair margin. The problem I see is that there appears no allowance for bailout - if the RB craps out at the worst possible point, do you have enough gas to complete the deco obligation?

Dave1w
22-01-2019, 07:32 AM
Not a RB diver so shoot me down if you wish but I had a thought on this.

Isn't one of the problems with "extended range" diving not that with a huge increase in dive length (if 10:1 gas extension is correct) that the dive will extend into deco by a fair margin. The problem I see is that there appears no allowance for bailout - if the RB craps out at the worst possible point, do you have enough gas to complete the deco obligation?

I think they are saying 30m no deco with a single cylinder (and you bail out to that cylinder) and 40m with 2 cylinders. Iím not sure if it switches the gases or itís just an extra cylinder


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WFO
22-01-2019, 07:54 AM
Why is it so hard to dump the gas behind you? Wouldn't it be possible to put another flexible hose on a reg and let the bubbles float around?


Because the pipe will act like an air-lift hose and cause a big depression in the reg giving a free flow.

WFO
22-01-2019, 08:12 AM
Well I had a look.

Basically it's yet another shot at making a draeger ray. But with a load of complicated shite added on which doesn't really add much in the way of safety. And they've made it nice and light, but you can't use it without a stage, so it's not really. And if you try jump in without the stage plugged in you'll probably die.*

About the only saving grace is some of the adverts aren't hard to look at.

*I may be wrong. But it doesn't look to have any gas on board?

Wibs
22-01-2019, 10:14 PM
What's the "typical" SCR gas extension ratio?

Would that be 3% O2 consumed per breath? So if diving on 30% that would be 10:1?

('scuse me ignorance)

WFO
23-01-2019, 08:28 AM
What's the "typical" SCR gas extension ratio?

Would that be 3% O2 consumed per breath? So if diving on 30% that would be 10:1?

('scuse me ignorance)

Something like that.

Depends on what sort of SCR you're using.

Active SCR (like a ray) just feeds a constant flow into the loop, on these the extension ratio varies
Passive SCR like an RB80 the ratio is fixed by the bellows which dump a fixed percentage of your breath overboard each breath


These electronic bags of shit use all the complicated bollox that you need on a proper SCR to do a sort of inbred version of both, which can theoretically give a better extension ratio than either type as it can be varied. In practice... erm...

Neilwood
23-01-2019, 11:32 AM
I think they are saying 30m no deco with a single cylinder (and you bail out to that cylinder) and 40m with 2 cylinders. I’m not sure if it switches the gases or it’s just an extra cylinder


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So really no advantage to doubles then apart from weight (of the smaller cylinders) but considerable extra costs and hassles of the unit, maintenance and sofnolime then.

OutOfTest
23-01-2019, 12:21 PM
Because the pipe will act like an air-lift hose and cause a big depression in the reg giving a free flow.

It would unless the regulator is also behind your head...like the old twin hose designs.

cathal
23-01-2019, 12:30 PM
So really no advantage to doubles then apart from weight (of the smaller cylinders) but considerable extra costs and hassles of the unit, maintenance and sofnolime then.

Does it not provide longer run times ?

UnCheeky Monkey
23-01-2019, 12:33 PM
Does it not provide longer run times ?

that's what I thought too - is that not the whole point of it ? (along with being able to use rental cylinders)

Neilwood
23-01-2019, 01:00 PM
Does it not provide longer run times ?

Yes it probably does give extended run times compared to doubles given the potential 10:1 ratio but is it usable duration? Depends on your gas planning I would say.

I have no doubt it will provide enough gas to extend way beyond NDL limits however, if you are planning your gas properly, you should allow for a failure at the worst possible point of your dive with sufficient reserve to meet your deco obligations. Can you do that with that unit that is ? Not entirely sure based on the info out there atm.

thetrickster
23-01-2019, 01:09 PM
The advertising bumf says "Dive times are an average of 3-8 times longer,"

Man, I'll do a 1:30-2hr dive if there is something REALLY interesting to see, but if it's within 25-30m - that can be achieved without all the extra hardware on a couple of AL80s.

I can see these being of completely no use on run of a mill liveaboards etc, where the 60min RT limits are in place.

Its great to see, you can use standard cylinders with this, unlike the stupid 5ltr's the Explorer needed, but what a waste of R&D and advertising money...

Allan Carr
23-01-2019, 03:28 PM
Why is it so hard to dump the gas behind you? Wouldn't it be possible to put another flexible hose on a reg and let the bubbles float around?

Wasn't the original "DV" from Caustau's days designed like that as it meant using only a single stage, unlike the first & second stage of today's regs? ISTR my dad diving in the 60s with Spiro kit that looked almost like a CCR. Not sure, but think there were other ones where the bubbles came out in front of you?

My first DV was a second-hand Esgee Mistral back n 1965 (all I could afford as a student - the previous owner updated to one of the new-fangled single hose valves). It was indeed a single stage - literally two levers acting on a piston. You hardly needing an SPG because you could tell you were getting low on air because it took more effort to breathe. Our Club still has one in it's historical collection. However, the working pressure of these valves was only 1800 PSI - 120bar.

The only advantage I could see for this Mares device would be that it would allow multiple dives in without needing to refill cylinders or carry multiple cylinders which night be an advantage in locations remote from a filling facility but it seems a bit of an overkill for this.

cathal
23-01-2019, 09:06 PM
Yes it probably does give extended run times compared to doubles given the potential 10:1 ratio but is it usable duration? Depends on your gas planning I would say.

I have no doubt it will provide enough gas to extend way beyond NDL limits however, if you are planning your gas properly, you should allow for a failure at the worst possible point of your dive with sufficient reserve to meet your deco obligations. Can you do that with that unit that is ? Not entirely sure based on the info out there atm.

As you say in your post the answer lies in your gas planning, the unit will extend your range of dive times considerably, but itís up to you to carry sufficient bail out gas, the same rule goes for any CCR.

cathal
23-01-2019, 09:09 PM
The only advantage I could see for this Mares device would be that it would allow multiple dives in without needing to refill cylinders or carry multiple cylinders which night be an advantage in locations remote from a filling facility but it seems a bit of an overkill for this.

I imagine where this unit would come into its own would be on a weeks trip where your not having to refill a twinset for about an hour at least every evening, instead you just have to top off your bail out cylinder.

PhilPage
24-01-2019, 12:59 PM
There certainly seems to be a market (although perhaps not in the UK) for divers who want to stay longer in the 30-40m zone without doing the full-on CCR and/or mixed gas routes.

I think the only real failing of the Explorer was the cost. Pitching a 40m gas extender at the same price point as a new CCR was product suicide.

This unit appears to have a lot going for it and it seems clear to me who it's aimed at. It all hinges on the cost. If you can get one for £2k or under including training, I think it'll do a decent trade.

Wibs
24-01-2019, 01:00 PM
I imagine where this unit would come into its own would be on a weeks trip where your not having to refill a twinset for about an hour at least every evening, instead you just have to top off your bail out cylinder.

... with Nitrox. Booster to hand?

cathal
24-01-2019, 01:01 PM
... with Nitrox. Booster to hand?

A booster?? Just use a stick with a compressor.

thetrickster
24-01-2019, 01:04 PM
If you can get one for £2k or under including training, I think it'll do a decent trade.

RRP is looking at €4000 from some sources...

PhilPage
24-01-2019, 01:43 PM
RRP is looking at €4000 from some sources...
More product suicide then - I genuinely wonder if any of these people do any market research. It's laughable that they think they're competing with other rebreathers when in fact they're competing with 2nd-hand twinsets... :rolleyes:

Neilwood
24-01-2019, 03:46 PM
More product suicide then - I genuinely wonder if any of these people do any market research. It's laughable that they think they're competing with other rebreathers when in fact they're competing with 2nd-hand twinsets... :rolleyes:

Even against a brand new twinset I would reckon it doesn't stack up (based on DIR Direct) but ignoring BP&W etc:

Twinsset incl manifold & bands (even Apeks as one of the most expensive) £730
Regs (Apeks) £845
Total around £1.6K

Comes to a hell of a lot less than £4K. Even adding a BP&W it still comes to around £2k less.

This RB only makes sense if you can do longer run times but I reckon that is negated by the bail out problem.

PhilPage
24-01-2019, 04:12 PM
Even against a brand new twinset I would reckon it doesn't stack up (based on DIR Direct) but ignoring BP&W etc:

Twinsset incl manifold & bands (even Apeks as one of the most expensive) £730
Regs (Apeks) £845
Total around £1.6K

Comes to a hell of a lot less than £4K. Even adding a BP&W it still comes to around £2k less.
Yup - that's why I said it needs to cost 2k or less including training :bow:


This RB only makes sense if you can do longer run times but I reckon that is negated by the bail out problem.
If it was cheap enough, it'd be persuasive as an alternative to twins if it extends NDL. It's main USP, however, is it's light enough to take on holiday and would allow one to turn the usual 45min holiday dive (coming up on 50bar of the measly 200 they'll give you in a AL80 or steel 12) into 60-90 mins I reckon. Also offers you a bit of time if you get stuck in the thistlegorm...

Wibs
24-01-2019, 04:44 PM
...It's main USP, however, is it's light enough to take on holiday and would allow one to turn the usual 45min holiday dive...

So 'sorb's commonly available?

TBH dive for dive it doesn't stack up on price - a twinset of 32% vs. a single of 32% + a bag of sorb.


... and all for the 1 hour max runtimes that's apparently common on Red Sea liveaboards...


But as @jturner said, it's not aimed at us. It's aimed at the (rich) wannabes

As for being stuck in the Thistlegorm; would much prefer the resilience and simplicity of a twinset.

UnCheeky Monkey
24-01-2019, 04:45 PM
Is it aimed at people who dive local but warm ? Southern USA from example ?

cathal
24-01-2019, 06:37 PM
Nothing more time consuming than filling twin 12ís every evening on a weeks trip of 30- 40M diving. About an hour at least of standing around scratching yourself.
With this SCR all the filling youíd be doing on the same trip would be just topping up your bail out cylinder every evening with nitrox. I know what Iíd prefer. Regarding whatís more reliable, if the unit, like any other SCR or CCR, is built right and maintained properly it will work fine.

gobfish1
24-01-2019, 09:18 PM
They don't work maybe ok for 18m on a hot mix.

If you want a long bottom time you need a large cylinder and a slow ish flow rate ie a piss poor nitrox . = More Deco. On a crap po2. You can make them work but thats not for Noddy and it won't be light or simple :grin:.
10 to 1 and 30m/40m lol can you tell me the po2 ffs.
No fee shag your going to need to pay for dinner .:shake:

The storm trooper has more going for it .
And 2nd hand have been going for a lot less than 4k
Under 2k and seen feek all a action. For the most part.

gobfish1
24-01-2019, 09:30 PM
Mr Cathal
Own more twin sets :grin:

cathal
25-01-2019, 07:57 AM
They don't work maybe ok for 18m on a hot mix.
Can you explain this because according to Mares they do work. The ppo2, from what I have read, is controlled by the solenoid, so why does it not work?

WFO
25-01-2019, 12:34 PM
Can you explain this because according to Mares they do work. The ppo2, from what I have read, is controlled by the solenoid, so why does it not work?

Not really.
You can never get above your drive gas ppo2 no matter what the solenoid does, and it would be daft to go below your drive gas MOD.

So to try and get any real deco advantage you'd be pissing through drive gas like no tomorrow.

PhilPage
25-01-2019, 01:46 PM
Not really.
You can never get above your drive gas ppo2 no matter what the solenoid does, and it would be daft to go below your drive gas MOD.

So to try and get any real deco advantage you'd be pissing through drive gas like no tomorrow.
Yeah I was puzzling on this as well. The Explorer made claims of being a "Hybrid" rebreather with implications that it was somewhere between an SCR and an eCCR.

Back then, I wasn't about to do Mod1, so never really looked into it fully.

Seems to me (a breather newbie) that a nitrox SCR (which is what the explorer was) can never have a hope of maintaining a setpoint that's of any use for extending NDL beyond the table limit for its single gas mix as it can't enrich beyond the O2 fraction in the diluent. Therefore the explorer was useless for anything other than being a gas extender.

When using the horizon with a single cylinder it follows that this must remain the case. The difference with the horizon (beyond a sensible scrubber) is the claim that it's capable of mounting a 2nd cylinder (advertised as being for accelerated deco). If it can take both tins at the same time, it must have 2 needle valves or some funky manifold. In this trim, I guess it would be possible for it to maintain a useful setpoint, but then what you're actually buying is essentially an eCCR that bleeds gas...

Vanny
25-01-2019, 01:57 PM
Gas switching on ccr ? Sounds like a bad idea, I haven’t really looked at this but that for me would negate the simple travel ccr option.

Paul Evans
25-01-2019, 02:07 PM
Gas switching on ccr ? Sounds like a bad idea, I haven’t really looked at this but that for me would negate the simple travel ccr option.

this threw me, surely its two tins of the SAME nitrox?

Paul Evans
25-01-2019, 02:15 PM
Anyway............

There will be a new boy in town soon. CE marked. Full CCR. Very travel friendly. Training available at launch and very inspired design features.

:nod:

WFO
25-01-2019, 02:17 PM
Gas switching on ccr ? Sounds like a bad idea,

It's a lot more common on SCR's, standard practice on the RB80, there was a switchblock standard on the azimuth SCR too.

WFO
25-01-2019, 02:18 PM
When using the horizon with a single cylinder it follows that this must remain the case. The difference with the horizon (beyond a sensible scrubber) is the claim that it's capable of mounting a 2nd cylinder (advertised as being for accelerated deco). If it can take both tins at the same time, it must have 2 needle valves or some funky manifold. In this trim, I guess it would be possible for it to maintain a useful setpoint, but then what you're actually buying is essentially an eCCR that bleeds gas...

With the azimuth people used to put some monitoring on them and fill one tank with 80%, the other tank with air and fly it manually. Yes you've then got a CCR with a leak but only a small leak! (you couldn't just use 100% as the CMF didn't adjust low enough)

Paul Evans
25-01-2019, 02:18 PM
It's a lot more common on SCR's, standard practice on the RB80, there was a switchblock standard on the azimuth SCR too.

yes but they were not sold as noddy toys???

PhilPage
25-01-2019, 02:39 PM
Blurb from the xrdiving webshite:


The Mares Horizon maintains a minimum flow rate of 5 liters/minute via the orifice at all times. During a dive, the fraction of oxygen in the loop is constantly measured and when it drops below the set point, an electronically-controlled valve (the EAV) opens. This valve injects fresh nitrox into the breathing loop until it reaches the set point. The EAV can inject nitrox with maximum flow of 25l/min, so together with orfice, Mares HORIZON is able to provide 30l/min of nitrox flow into the breathing loop. This is more than enough to maintain safe breathing gas even with very high exertion.

So - a 5lpm needle valve and (presumably) the rEvo solenoid valve.

The deco version is 1.6kg heavier than the non-deco, which I assume is an inlet manifold for the rich tin.

So in the non-deco version the solenoid is injecting dil. In the deco version, it's injecting deco gas. In both versions, dil is trickled in @ 5lpm.

So:
Non-deco = gas extender
Deco = ADV-equipped eCCR that leaks and only has 2 sensors

I still reckon it'd be a reasonable alternative to a twinset if it was affordable (which it can't be, as it's nearly as complicated to make as an eCCR), but at $4k plus training, it's complete waste of money when compared against any eCCR.

Paul Evans
25-01-2019, 02:49 PM
Blurb from the xrdiving webshite:



So - a 5lpm needle valve and (presumably) the rEvo solenoid valve.

The deco version is 1.6kg heavier than the non-deco, which I assume is an inlet manifold for the rich tin.

So in the non-deco version the solenoid is injecting dil. In the deco version, it's injecting deco gas. In both versions, dil is trickled in @ 5lpm.

So:
Non-deco = gas extender
Deco = ADV-equipped eCCR that leaks and only has 2 sensors

I still reckon it'd be a reasonable alternative to a twinset if it was affordable (which it can't be, as it's nearly as complicated to make as an eCCR), but at $4k plus training, it's complete waste of money when compared against any eCCR.

Has anyone seen the Max mix this can be used with?

cathal
25-01-2019, 02:53 PM
Has anyone seen the Max mix this can be used with?

The critical question because if it can take 100%, that would be nice!

PhilPage
25-01-2019, 02:55 PM
Has anyone seen the Max mix this can be used with?
Spec sheet says 30-99%

Paul Evans
25-01-2019, 02:58 PM
The critical question because if it can take 100%, that would be nice!

A recreational unit? That's going to go well.........

cathal
25-01-2019, 03:01 PM
Spec sheet says 30-99%

If it can take 100% then it makes it a lot more efficient then OC.

PhilPage
25-01-2019, 03:04 PM
If it can take 100% then it makes it a lot more efficient then OC.
Not at 4k it doesn't! :rofl:

Paul Evans
25-01-2019, 03:07 PM
Not at 4k it doesn't! :rofl:

And it very much isn't the way its being promoted!

cathal
25-01-2019, 04:23 PM
If the unit can take 100%, then that means accelerated decompression conducted much more efficiently than OC.

gobfish1
25-01-2019, 06:43 PM
You save some gas 4k to save just over half a pony of o2 :devil:
oc more gas used
efficiently. Is in the eye of the beholder .

We are will off the Noddy one cylinder dive lol

Ps the 5lpm is also bollox.
breaststroke only maybe . lol

If your vo2 is about 1l/min and you do a 40m dive on a hot 1.6po2 ie 32% nitrox O2 in loop would be shite worse than diving air Deco wise and narked also lol

You need 7lpm flow just to make it on par with air . But don't work to hard or you will feek that up in no time.

Been a while so maybe my calculations are all feeked up .

But I think not

To get say a two point drop on your hot 32%nitrox you would need something like 30lpm flow
Now your 7l side can lasts 54mins
As you know your vo2 will change with work load so Deco Cal's will be on the safe side of you avg fo2.

About 4 points less than drive gas above.
if your only doing the breaststroke

Lol add in your bail out and a Deco gas and Noddy is a feeking guru for sure. :wait:

That 54min dive adds up to a 135 min run time . its not a unit for deco dives ,
Ffs xr

The cells and seloniid are in units to save Noddy from him self . if vo2 go s in to over drive unit will piss in some new fresh gas save the day, and looks like uint will be doing this often with a low flow rate of 5lpm.

It's probably ok and some what on par with a twinset in around say 21m or less 50% drive gas 10l/pm flow avg 43% in loop cant see 5lpm cutting it , ok at deco on 80% but dont work for the main dive ,

on the plus side it looks like it has real time on the fly deco computer, So I'm sure you could make it do a lot more with a bit of feeking with it .

I hope they sell a shit load . This time next year you maybe able to pick up a 2nd hand unit of 1500 quid .

gobfish1
25-01-2019, 09:43 PM
Anyway............

There will be a new boy in town soon. CE marked. Full CCR. Very travel friendly. Training available at launch and very inspired design features.

:nod:

ello m8 ,
Inspired . pdf please .

Paulo
25-01-2019, 09:49 PM
Gober, clear your inbox :)

cathal
26-01-2019, 01:26 PM
Been a while so maybe my calculations are all feeked up .

But I think not

To get say a two point drop on your hot 32%nitrox you would need something like 30lpm flow
Now your 7l side can lasts 54mins
As you know your vo2 will change with work load so Deco Cal's will be on the safe side of you avg fo2.

About 4 points less than drive gas above.
if your only doing the breaststroke

Lol add in your bail out and a Deco gas and Noddy is a feeking guru for sure. :wait:

That 54min dive adds up to a 135 min run time . its not a unit for deco dives ,
Ffs xr

The cells and seloniid are in units to save Noddy from him self . if vo2 go s in to over drive unit will piss in some new fresh gas save the day, and looks like uint will be doing this often with a low flow rate of 5lpm.

It's probably ok and some what on par with a twinset in around say 21m or less 50% drive gas 10l/pm flow avg 43% in loop cant see 5lpm cutting it , ok at deco on 80% but dont work for the main dive ,

on the plus side it looks like it has real time on the fly deco computer, So I'm sure you could make it do a lot more with a bit of feeking with it .

I hope they sell a shit load . This time next year you maybe able to pick up a 2nd hand unit of 1500 quid .
I don't know the exact pneumatic system and how it is supplying the gas atm but Mares: https://www.mares.com/en-IC/sports/diving/horizon-key-characteristics/ is claiming 3-8 times longer bottom time.

Even taking the median range of 5 times longer bottom time that will give you ample gas for 2 - 3 days diving per cylinder. For a weeks diving two cylinders of nitrox and 100% would do you.

Wibs
26-01-2019, 01:45 PM
14kg. €4k.

What's the cost and weight of a basic Revo mCCR without tins?

Am wondering if this is a 'similar' comparison.

gobfish1
26-01-2019, 01:56 PM
3 to 8 times longer is probably about all most true.
3 for diving. and you have a low vo2 and 8 sat at Deco on a 80% plus Deco cylinder that only need s one or two lpm flow.
all ideal numbers . More marketing than I'd like to see. But hay ho . As soon as you read 3 or 8 you must know ist good .

If your happy to take that clam then fine.
Nip out and spend 4k

Ps weekend s diving you still need to cover bail out . Ist just more bollox and Noddy can't cope .

For all the arsing about why no use a real
Breather lol

Ist a scr it can't pull rabbit s out of its arse . Just cos it's got a few cells and can piss in some fresh nitrox
It can do two things. Give you a long dive on a shit po 2

Or a feeking short dive on a good po 2

IV seen the hand sets and numbers don't add up not with the flow rate of 5lpm looks about right on the Deco gas
As Flow is low .

So your on a hot mix and 3 cylinder if you want to kick its arse. Hardy Noddy diving is it

3 to 8 times longer bottom times .
Lol longer than what

cathal
26-01-2019, 03:00 PM
3 to 8 times longer bottom times .
Lol longer than what

Than the tins your using.

gobfish1
26-01-2019, 03:34 PM
Well if your doing just the 3 time s longer on bottom you would just be able to clip enough can s on your self to cover Deco lol

Your feeking hard work . And I can't be arsed with your reply and cherry picking answer
IV no intention s of schooling you in what a scr can and can't do. Or point out
The implications of 3 to 8 times longer or how irrelevant that statement i

See below
You said .
I don't know the exact pneumatic system and how it is supplying the gas (this tells me all i need to know )

How it get s there don't matter and won't change the out come or the
O2 in the loop. Mix. depth. flow and vo2
Nothing to do with rabbit s
more of the irrelevant

Relevant if your running unit on one cylinder and the seloniid jams open do you turn the cylinder off lol
Feeked if I know . Think you just suck it up and head home.

think the unit has a min nitrox of 30% if you have a flow rate of 5lpm it would be worse than diving to 40m on my ccr and doing the bottom time on low set point . irrelevent or relevent you can make your owen mind up on that one.
enjoy

ps
The 5lpm bollox ,
A 30m dive on a half right nitrox drive gas with a 10lmp flow rate and your getting a ok ish nitrox mix ,
your still going to get about 2h should be more than enough time to get your self in to truble , Ramp up lots of deco ,

Wibs
26-01-2019, 05:16 PM
Than the tins your using.

We're not the target market for it -- we're "enthusiasts" with some experience and a bucket load of cynicism.

But, what's the point of extending gas when there's not a lot needed anyway? That box's target dive is either 15m of "few bubbles" and no deco, or 30m with a bit of deco. Both types of dive would be just as easy using open circuit. Actually, both dives would be a *lot* easier on open circuit as there's no box issues to fart around with, at the very least needing to change & pack the 'sorb and diving sidemount with a single tin that'll get all floaty.

Oh, and that BOV... can't see any additional LP hoses so assume the "bailout" uses the corrugated hoses and some gubbins on your back. So not a bailout to a resilient backup, e.g. a catastrophic flood.

gobfish1
26-01-2019, 05:46 PM
Min nitox is 30% max depth is 40m
So your drive gas has a po2 of 1.5
Do you really want to bail out on to that after a co2 event
So one cylinder to drive unit to get a shit mix . Then one more cylinder to bail out to and then one more cylinder to do your long Deco time. ( Having dived on said shite gas )

Seems like fun sure Noddy will love it.

Answers on a post card
Nitrox 30 flow rate 5lpm
With a vo2 of 1lpm
what.s Steve breathing at 40m


Bones points if you can till me what I'm breathing if my vo2 is .5 lpm
Triple point.s if you can tell me what will happe if my vo2 went to 1.5lpm :x:.
Don't panic
unit will go in to Noddy mode and piss some freshman gas in.

all said and done
it looks like a nice unit and im sure it will work well for some divers , but as soon as you want to push it to do long bottom times so called tec shit , it wont cut it , as the feeking about and kit needed to do so ends up making ccr look simple,

a 60min 30m dive i can do on a twinset and maybe a pony of 02 , on ccr just the on board dill and o2 .
both with plan b

scr would need more cylinder,s than both the above and id have to breath a suboptimal gas giving me more deco to cater for ,

having a plan b for longer dives is just not what this unit is all about ,

having shitloads of the wrong gas is not the way id want to plan my longer dives ,

Spinal
26-01-2019, 07:17 PM
Even against a brand new twinset I would reckon it doesn't stack up (based on DIR Direct) but ignoring BP&W etc:

Twinsset incl manifold & bands (even Apeks as one of the most expensive) £730
Regs (Apeks) £845
Total around £1.6K

Comes to a hell of a lot less than £4K. Even adding a BP&W it still comes to around £2k less.

This RB only makes sense if you can do longer run times but I reckon that is negated by the bail out problem.

Just thinking about this again - you need to add the backplate/harness/wing, and a computer... the computer being the key element in cost.

Still substantially less than the mares unit... but not half. It's mares' second attempt at an all-in-one (remember the mares hub?) ...

Energy58
27-01-2019, 02:58 AM
Even against a brand new twinset I would reckon it doesn't stack up (based on DIR Direct) but ignoring BP&W etc:

Twinsset incl manifold & bands (even Apeks as one of the most expensive) £730
Regs (Apeks) £845
Total around £1.6K

Comes to a hell of a lot less than £4K. Even adding a BP&W it still comes to around £2k less.

This RB only makes sense if you can do longer run times but I reckon that is negated by the bail out problem.

My first twinset cost 200 quid including the wing - regs were about 350 - even with a brand new Shearwater its 1/3 the cost

Spinal
27-01-2019, 03:02 PM
My first twinset cost 200 quid including the wing - regs were about 350 - even with a brand new Shearwater its 1/3 the cost

While I'm sure your twinset was £200 - that was either second hand or quite a white ago... I would struggle to get a twinset (new) today, with a manifold and bands sub £500 nowadays... we can't really compare new kit today to second hand kit 20 years ago...

Going to do a quick price comparison...

Mares thing : 4000EUR / 3500GBP


Twinset setup:
Banded/manifolded twin 12l cylinders £520 (dirdirect)
Regs : £693 (scubapro from dirdirect) or £666 for XTX50/DS4 apex
Backplate: £90 (hollis, simplyscuba)
Wing: £210ish (scubapro from simplyscuba)
Webbing: £20 (assuming normal webbing and some D-rings to make it yourself)
Computer: £200 (entry level nitrox computer. without gas switching.. do you REALLY need that shearwater? :p)

That's roughly £1700 - going on the assumption that you're ok with a mares puck or similar - which is pretty much spot on half the price of the horizon. Add a shearwater and you're a little over half price, but still significantly less. Now one third though.

Then again, I really don't see a "new" diver buying this (I wouldn't advise any of my students to start with this as their first setup)... so still not sure about the target audience... probably people like me who are interesting in learning more or knowing more about SCR, but don't want to go CCR...

Don't get me wrong, as someone who doesn't "do" CCR, I wouldn't mind having one of the horizons. In fact, I may speak to my local rep to get a trial of one... but I would never pay more than 2k (euros, not GBP) for one (new).

M.

Paul Evans
27-01-2019, 03:05 PM
My first twinset cost 200 quid including the wing - regs were about 350 - even with a brand new Shearwater its 1/3 the cost

You dont have to buy the latest trendy over priced tat FFS :P:

Good greif..... :D

ebt
27-01-2019, 05:15 PM
The one breather i always fancied a go on was a DC55. Of all the SCR's that one struck me as the most useable/practical.

Energy58
28-01-2019, 05:26 AM
While I'm sure your twinset was £200 - that was either second hand or quite a white ago... I would struggle to get a twinset (new) today, with a manifold and bands sub £500 nowadays... we can't really compare new kit today to second hand kit 20 years ago...

Going to do a quick price comparison...

Mares thing : 4000EUR / 3500GBP


Twinset setup:
Banded/manifolded twin 12l cylinders £520 (dirdirect)
Regs : £693 (scubapro from dirdirect) or £666 for XTX50/DS4 apex
Backplate: £90 (hollis, simplyscuba)
Wing: £210ish (scubapro from simplyscuba)
Webbing: £20 (assuming normal webbing and some D-rings to make it yourself)
Computer: £200 (entry level nitrox computer. without gas switching.. do you REALLY need that shearwater? :p)

That's roughly £1700 - going on the assumption that you're ok with a mares puck or similar - which is pretty much spot on half the price of the horizon. Add a shearwater and you're a little over half price, but still significantly less. Now one third though.

Then again, I really don't see a "new" diver buying this (I wouldn't advise any of my students to start with this as their first setup)... so still not sure about the target audience... probably people like me who are interesting in learning more or knowing more about SCR, but don't want to go CCR...

Don't get me wrong, as someone who doesn't "do" CCR, I wouldn't mind having one of the horizons. In fact, I may speak to my local rep to get a trial of one... but I would never pay more than 2k (euros, not GBP) for one (new).

M.

It was about 7 years ago - 2 euro 12s (in test), a stainless backplate, wing, harness, STA and some other assorted hardware and crap - all for 200 off fleabay collected from somewhere near York. I bought regs from 4th Element and got a stunning deal. I use a Puck Pro which is a full nitrox gas switching computer which cost me IIR about 130 from Robin Hood - the only problem with it is that my eyes are the same age as the rest of me and its getting a bit hard to see so I may need to upgrade to something with a bigger screen! I use a basic BT as a backup.

I am still using everything except for the wing which I subsequently sold for 50 quid ;) (I had a period when I kept buying wings until I found I had 5 - I now have a set up I am happy with and am down to two - a single tank wing and a double bladder big one)

I just bought a 300 bar twinset for 100 quid (without test but it looked like new and passed a hydro last week with no issues) and depending on how I get on with that (not dived it yet) I may well move the twins on later this year but the point is that spending silly money isn't necessary even though my house looks like a dive shop.

I certainly wouldn't pay that kind of money for a CCR that doesn't actually do anything I can't do now

gobfish1
28-01-2019, 04:28 PM
The one breather i always fancied a go on was a DC55. Of all the SCR's that one struck me as the most useable/practical.

No rabbit s in that scr m8 .
Noddy would pass out on the way back :think:

Nice simple unit tho.