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srahul
01-10-2017, 09:46 AM
hi

im considering furthering my diving by starting to train in tech diving and want to eventually go all the way to hypoxic and eCCR dives... but thats a long way.
for now id like to get feedback from you who dive tec already about what i should expect.. whats the best path forward.. etc.. for starters.. would you say if one dives tech they should have their own equipment? and to what extent? cheers

rahul

Chrisch
01-10-2017, 10:19 AM
Start by making your mind up if you are rebreather or OC. No point in doing lots of OC if you go CCR and vice versa. As in the other thread you are aiming too wide and not going to get any value from the feedback.

nigel hewitt
01-10-2017, 10:59 AM
OK Technical Diving is not a thing but a blanket term to cover a lot of related activities and the use of a wide range of equipment.
It is expensive both in time and money so you have to specialise especially at the start.
I'm guessing that you just want a deco course so you begin to assimilate the 'everything I am using will break one day' mentality that the whole range of technical diving uses.
Once you realise that most of our training is not how to do something but how not to die we can start to move on to how boring a long entry or a big deco can be.
That's when most people drop out and sell up the kit.

srahul
01-10-2017, 11:04 AM
nigel thanks for a lovely sum up :)

i am well ready for the long and slow ascent+deco stopping part of tech diving. when undewater i am actually happy not to be entertained and just be relaxing. so its no problem--- i imagine... and hope.
yes i might want to go down rebreather path but I thought to be doing rebreathers you would need to carry open circuit stuff as bail out anyways or am i mistaken?

i guess i would start with adv. nitrox + decomp. procedures stuff to get started.. and i guess thats when pne must buy/choose the rig? i would leave rebreather stuff for very late since we dont dive very often (yet).

NWdiver
02-10-2017, 07:34 AM
Diving is just a tool. "Technical diving", whatever that is, is just a tool. I believe that the reason we see a huge turnover of people is that people are taught to dive. They tick that off and then move on to the next thing. Often "technical diving". However, in that time, they haven't found an interest in what they're doing.

The whole "I just love being underwater" thing will wear off. There's nothing particularly exciting about breathing gas through a regulator underwater.

What do you want to achieve? Not in terms of depth or time, but in terms of interest. Are there wrecks you want to dive that you can't currently make the most of? Caves? Just exploring and learning more about the coast around you? Whatever it is, these are the things that will keep you diving.

Once you have that figured, you need to think about the logistics. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to do these things on your own. If everyone doing the thing you want to do is doing it OC, then going CCR will make things harder. Vice versa. Your question is very vague and I think you get bad advice by asking, "How do I get into tech diving?". You'll be led onto the generic tech training train but that's pointless without an aim in mind.

As for kit... probably. I'd say you need to be diving regularly. I don't know anyone who you may class as a "technical diver" doing less than 40-50 dives a year of some sort. This generally means rules out holiday only diving and therefore owning kit is the best way for me. Familiarity with it is also essential.

I'm waffling but, in short, make sure you're not just doing this because it's the next thing to do. Or even worse... because everyone else is doing it. Find your interest and then select the tools to fit. Recreational diving is easier, generally safer and considerably better value for money.

Chrisch
02-10-2017, 07:38 AM
...
i guess i would start with adv. nitrox + decomp. procedures stuff to get started.. and i guess thats when pne must buy/choose the rig? i would leave rebreather stuff for very late since we dont dive very often (yet).

If you don't dive very often neither advanced deco nor CCR are needed either. The very best diving is a single 12 with EAN32 and a nice 80-90 min bottom time on a shallow but well preserved wreck (well IMHO anyway). You will find that dives like that are hard to come by in Northern Europe. In order to do more interesting dives is unfortunate that you have to train and equip to dive deeper sites. For the same result (a nice half hour on a decent wreck) you can treble the cost and double the kit. Unless you dive a lot it is probably cheaper and easier and better to change the venue.

Sadly a lot of people (often new to diving) see technical (whatever that is) diving as "adventurous" or some such other bullshit. An end goal in itself. Mostly these are people that are more interested in equipment than actual diving. (You see this in photography too - thousand pound camera and shit photos). The fact is humans cannot breathe water, so we need equipment to deliver breathable gas to us in order to be in that environment. That equipment is determined by the task.

I like to cave dive (you mentioned caves). The absolute minimum for that is twin tanks. To be skilled at valve shutdowns and handling twin tanks you need to practice and be very comfortable with that equipment configuration. As a result I dive a twin tank setup all the time. For 95% of the diving I do it is a pain in the arse and overly expensive and stupid. On a RIB dive to 20m you look like a twat with your twinset and annoy everyone else on the boat. How I envy the divers with their 12L recreational outfit. How tedious and annoying the repeated stupid questions from other divers about how they too can get into "technical" diving so they too can have idiotic and inappropriate equipment to do a 20m dive. Full of enthusiasm and without a clue they bang on about CCR vs OC and which regulator to buy, what gas mix and so on. Sometimes you see them while you are diving. They are blowing off gas like a steam train and bicycling like a loon. Back on the boat (they left after you and are back before you) they start on again about "technical" diving. Only politeness stops me saying you haven't a fucking clue - your buoyancy is shit and your finning is even shittier.

Where to start? First and most important is to nail all the basics. There are a number of training courses like the IANTD and GUE fundamentals. Neither appeal much to people as they are not all about equipment and heroically pushing the limits. As Nigel says, it's about staying alive and coming back safely. There is much merit in taking this type of course early and being exposed to real skill and ability and understanding how critical that foundation is to every other thing you do. Most of us (me too) start that process far too late and have to unlearn bad habits.

Advanced nitrox and accelerated decompression? Well the point of accelerating your deco is to shorten the tedium of the deco you are already doing. If you stop for 5-10 minutes now on backgas then there isn't much to accelerate really. The purpose of the EAN course is also to bring twin cylinders into your diving which is a start point and the beginning of getting used to that configuration. The purpose of twins is to give more gas, which you only need if you are going deeper, or for redundant gas if you are in an overhead environment. An overhead environment course is handy too for that development.

People do rush into this but in my view it is probably a good idea to have a couple of hundred or more "regular" (recreational 20-30m) dives under your belt first. Like riding a bike you will fall off as part of the learning process. Dive often enough and you will fuck up. Best to fuck up at 20m on a no stop dive. Try not to fuck up in a deep cave.

Rebreathers are for people that dive a lot. They require a lot of practice. Just the training takes a lot of underwater time. It's a big commitment. Personally I don't get the opportunity to dive anywhere enough to go that route. The weather has been bad this year. I'm not sure I would want to do a 40m dive right now never mind anything more demanding. My tanks have not had helium in them in a very long time. I am not sure that you could call me a "technical" diver these days despite the silly plastic cards in my wallet.

You haven't said what you are currently diving or what appeals to you or why you want to increase your task loading. Without that information it's hard to guess what your motives are. It is therefore even harder to suggest what you do next.

srahul
02-10-2017, 07:51 AM
Dear Chris and Hi NWdiver,

thanks for the responses. well maybe if we sat face to face id be more clear and also maybe your questions do lead to me stating things more clearly.
in a way you both say the same thing and i agree completely with you so let me try to be more clear...

I was diving recently in Croatia and there were quite a few wrecks that were too deep for me to go on air, this got me looking into what would it take for me to be able to dive these wrecks. In general both wrecks and caves... exploring such environments is for me more fun than the typical reef.

Having seen the course structures on various organizations and reading up about the rigs and OC/CCR etc ofcourse I have now questions and many have been answered already by you Chris above.

I'd like to start with some longer bottom time 50-70m dives to these wrecks.. when I have exhausted these options and need a next challenge i shall consider them then.

I do know that there are some mine shaft caves to dive in europe (for sure in Poland/hungary and Germany) these are deeper I believe and that for now is my subsequent target/destination to dive.

so yes I am looking to dive caves and wrecks mostly.

I am completely happy diving with 2 tanks and not deep just to get accostomed and train with the configuration and techniques. I dont care for the plastic cards. its just something that lets me dive to places i currently cannot.

me currently : AOWD, 43 dives (yes i know not much), couple of deep dives 42m... , Nitrox and Dry suit certified.

NWdiver
02-10-2017, 08:22 AM
42m air dives are silly imo. *Insert debate here*

30m wrecks. Find them. Get some 32% and you'll have half an hour without any deco obligations. Dive the hell out of them. They're likely to be as good as the deeper ones.

I've done TDI adv nitrox & Helitrox as well as GUE fundies (I'll probably do Tech 1 to broaden my options in terms of buddys / team mates). I dive a lot. Week in, week out. Yet I can't justify doing anything more than the 45m wrecks I'm doing now. There are hundreds, thousands of sites in less than 30m let alone 45m. These are just as much of interest as the deeper ones are.

It's poor form to call people out on inexperience / low number of dives and I certainly don't want to put a dampener on your enthusiasm. There's just so much to be done in shallower / more accessible water. This is where you want to spend time working out what you want to get out of the whole thing. Don't spend a ton of money doing something on a whim... You'll only end up spending more when you change your mind.

As for wrecks.... 32% 30m. Go nuts. Then, maybe, start setting some realistic targets. Extend your time at that depth. Dive more. Look for some deeper wrecks approx 45m. Take an accelerated deco course. Use a little helium. Dive more. It should be quite a long time before you're doing extended time at 70m. In fact, the chances of you ever doing that are slim. That's a good thing. There's a hell of a lot of fun to be had on the way there.

I know nothing about caves.

EDIT: Training wise, I think every one would benefit from GUE Fundies. You'd probably also get a lot out of something like TDI intro to tech. But you should be prepared for an instructor to manage your expectations. Don't run before you can walk. It's no fun.

srahul
02-10-2017, 08:33 AM
42m air dives are silly imo. *Insert debate here*

30m wrecks. Find them. Get some 32% and you'll have half an hour without any deco obligations. Dive the hell out of them. They're likely to be as good as the deeper ones.

I've done TDI adv nitrox & Helitrox as well as GUE fundies (I'll probably do Tech 1 to broaden my options in terms of buddys / team mates). I dive a lot. Week in, week out.......

where are you located? it would be great to be able to dive week in week out.
i am not in a rush to buy equipment neither... actually just the opposite i want to train with the techniques (boyancy/finning) and slowly move on from single to two tanks deco stops and keep moving slowly forward,.. the question was really about the path. thanks for all the input!

and no this isnt a whim. :)

NWdiver
02-10-2017, 08:51 AM
i want to train with the techniques (boyancy/finning)

GUE Fundamentals would absolutely do this. No questions. Whatever, your experience level you'd be solidifying your core skills. Something like TDI Intro to Tech would be equally good as long as you find a good instructor. I've seen some shocking examples.

Then dive more. Although I know it's easier said than done.

Chrisch
02-10-2017, 08:53 AM
..it would be great to be able to dive week in week out....

Which part of Germany are you in? There are many, many opportunities to dive in the German lakes. I did my instructor training in Germany in the lakes. Whilst these are not the most exciting they do give the chance to build up some experience and get to practice with equipment. I now live 10Km from the sea and dive much less than when I lived in Luxembourg.

There are wrecks in Bodensee worth making an effort to see for example. https://www.abc.se/~pa/mar/jura.htm This is a 36m dive and so something you could do right now.

Personally if I were at AOW I would look at the Rescue Diver as the next course then move away from PADI to one of the more "technical" agencies. Buoyancy is key to any further development and only you know whether you are happy with that or not. Is your drysuit cert from PADI? Are you using it for buoyancy? You might want to review that. Are you on a backplate and harness or a BCD? Move over to a backplate and harness. Have a look at long hose primary and primary donate and see when that makes sense for you. Maybe look at small twin tanks - twin 7L is a nice set up, my wife dives that all the time. It's not too heavy and is OK for recreational diving as well as giving the chance to practice your valve drills.

If you put another 100 dives on your logbook with an equipment configuration that is oriented towards the longer term goal of deeper diving you will have a head start when you move onto bigger twins and deeper diving. Get used to a decent dive light too - you will need it for deep dives and gloomy German lakes. An umbilical light is a good investment.

So that's the first €2,000 spent.....

CraigofScotland
02-10-2017, 09:20 AM
42m air dives are silly imo. *Insert debate here*


You've gone and done it now.

NWdiver
02-10-2017, 09:30 AM
You've gone and done it now.

Well, it's only right that any helpful advice is obscured by a ruck about deep(?) air....

I'll climb down and say that they're silly for me. 1) I wouldn't remember any of it. 2) Assuming its just a back gas dive the deco racks up too quick to get a decent dive. My point was that OP would get a better dive out of a 30m wreck.

srahul
02-10-2017, 01:46 PM
GUE Fundamentals would absolutely do this. No questions. Whatever, your experience level you'd be solidifying your core skills. Something like TDI Intro to Tech would be equally good as long as you find a good instructor. I've seen some shocking examples.

Then dive more. Although I know it's easier said than done.


this is exactly my plan... now comes the finding good instructor and also close/enough diving time at hand possibilities.. hard in berlin.. would need to be a travel trip..

NWdiver
02-10-2017, 02:00 PM
now comes the finding good instructor

Can't help with specifics but there does seem to be a big GUE community in Germany. With twice the number of instructors as the UK, I'd imagine there's a fair bit of diving going on.

https://i.imgur.com/OI6Uh3K.png
https://www.gue.com/gue-instructors

*Other agencies are available. They may or may not be equally good. I've had good training elsewhere. I only link that as, from experience, I wouldn't hesitate to pick anyone off that list

srahul
02-10-2017, 03:00 PM
Yeah berlin is a crap place for diving :) no deep lakes... Lake Konstanze is great but too far..
thanks for the link.. i have contacted someone lets see where that conversation goes. thanks so much!

How would you compare GUE with TDI?

jturner
02-10-2017, 03:13 PM
How would you compare GUE with TDI?

Now there's a question and a half! How do you answer something like that?! In my experience (FWIW), GUE teach you their system and nothing more. It's a very good system for many people, one that will see you through most dives without any problems and the teaching quality is superb. TDI have a slightly more flexible approach and again in my experience, the teaching has been excellent. All IME.

srahul
02-10-2017, 03:16 PM
ok great, im collecting opinons and if someone had something strong to say like 42m was silly ;) id appreciate it as it would make me look more closely at it ;)
im a researcher and in math... its not where functions are all clean and nice thats informative.. its where things breakdown and singularities appear that reveal most :) so im looking for the places where somethings broken.. or "contentious" to learn most.

merci beaucoup!

jturner
02-10-2017, 03:42 PM
ok great, im collecting opinons and if someone had something strong to say like 42m was silly ;) id appreciate it as it would make me look more closely at it ;)
im a researcher and in math... its not where functions are all clean and nice thats informative.. its where things breakdown and singularities appear that reveal most :) so im looking for the places where somethings broken.. or "contentious" to learn most.

merci beaucoup!

De rien! And as you're collecting opinions, I don't think 42m is on air is necessarily silly. I just can't think of a reason why I'd want to do it, so for me to do it, it would be silly, as I know for a fact I'd be quite narked and couldn't rely on myself to do the right thing if things went horribly wrong. 999 times out of a thousand, I'm sure I'd be fine but I cannot be bothered to take that tiny risk just because I'm too much of a tightwad to add a little helium!

NWdiver
02-10-2017, 03:56 PM
De rien! And as you're collecting opinions, I don't think 42m is on air is necessarily silly. I just can't think of a reason why I'd want to do it, so for me to do it, it would be silly, as I know for a fact I'd be quite narked and couldn't rely on myself to do the right thing if things went horribly wrong. 999 times out of a thousand, I'm sure I'd be fine

I agree totally. But that's exactly why I think it is silly. :)

A 45m dive now probably costs me £30-45 in backgas and deco gas. It pales in significance to the cost of fuel, boat fees and hotels. I get a decent amount of time on the bottom and I remember it all.

I could save £20-30 by doing it on air but that's not good value for money

srahul
02-10-2017, 04:28 PM
ok NWdiver this is good to know. thanks!

and to do dives at about 40-50 with deco gas i guess GUE tech 1 is sufficient.. or the TDI has something similar too.. good.. thats going to be my first target.

AxeMan
02-10-2017, 06:01 PM
I agree totally. But that's exactly why I think it is silly. :)

A 45m dive now probably costs me £30-45 in backgas and deco gas. It pales in significance to the cost of fuel, boat fees and hotels. I get a decent amount of time on the bottom and I remember it all.

I could save £20-30 by doing it on air but that's not good value for money

If you put helium into your backgas, can you get out on it with a deco stage failure?

NWdiver
02-10-2017, 06:29 PM
If you put helium into your backgas, can you get out on it with a deco stage failure?

Yes. At ART / Helitrox level the helium barely affects the deco plan at all.

timmyg
02-10-2017, 07:56 PM
ok NWdiver this is good to know. thanks!

and to do dives at about 40-50 with deco gas i guess GUE tech 1 is sufficient.. or the TDI has something similar too.. good.. thats going to be my first target.

Yes.

TDI have Advanced Nitrox & Deconpression Procedures or Advanced Nitrox & Helitrox.


TG

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Badger
02-10-2017, 09:59 PM
Yes.

TDI have Advanced Nitrox & Deconpression Procedures or Advanced Nitrox & Helitrox.


TG

Sent from my iPhone using timmytalkTim, Tec 1 trains in the use of 21/35 or 18/45 so the comparison to TDI Nitrox based classes is incorrect.

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timmyg
02-10-2017, 10:05 PM
It was never my intention to compare TDI with GUE. The 2 agencies are very different in terms of standards & courses. Iíve not done, or even know about T1 so I canít comment on that. And I wasnít IMO.

The OP did post:

to do dives at about 40-50 with deco gas

And that is what my response was on. And the TDI course(s) meet that criteria.

Helitrox trains up to 20% helium in the back gas, max depth 45m. DP is just air/Nitrox.

TG

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Clem
03-10-2017, 07:02 PM
Yeah berlin is a crap place for diving :) no deep lakes... Lake Konstanze is great but too far..
thanks for the link.. i have contacted someone lets see where that conversation goes. thanks so much!

How would you compare GUE with TDI?

Why is Berlin a crap place for diving?

Werbellinsee, north of Berlin is about 50m deep, there are also some wrecks in there. Other deep lakes are about 2 hours drive away, mines are within 2-3 hours drive. There are several shallow lakes around Berlin that are perfect for practising skills... Canít really complain!

Thereís also a tech community in Berlin, search for DIR-BB on Facebook...




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srahul
03-10-2017, 07:04 PM
Why is Berlin a crap place for diving?

Werbellinsee, north of Berlin is about 50m deep, there are also some wrecks in there. Other deep lakes are about 2 hours drive away, mines are within 2-3 hours drive. There are several shallow lakes around Berlin that are perfect for practising skills... Canít really complain!

Thereís also a tech community in Berlin, search for DIR-BB on Facebook...


thanks a lot... the issue bing no car :) and neither of us like driving in berlin. and the visibility in these lakes is pretty bad been to one for a dry suit dive and it wasnt fun. :/
something like lake conztance would be so much better ;)

srahul
03-10-2017, 07:05 PM
There’s also a tech community in Berlin, search for DIR-BB on Facebook...

didnt come to anything searching for DIR-BB

Clem
03-10-2017, 07:06 PM
thanks a lot... the issue bing no car :) and neither of us like driving in berlin. and the visibility in these lakes is pretty bad been to one for a dry suit dive and it wasnt fun. :/
something like lake conztance would be so much better ;)


No car / not wanting to drive and tech diving is a very tricky combination... :D


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srahul
03-10-2017, 07:07 PM
No car / not wanting to drive and tech diving is a very tricky combination... :D

lets say... i need a license as yet (never needed it till now... ) so thats in the making :D hence currently i dont drive and my wife doesnt like driving here :D

Clem
03-10-2017, 07:10 PM
didnt come to anything searching for DIR-BB

Send me a PM with your Facebook name and Iíll invite you.


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germie
05-10-2017, 03:08 PM
IANTD has an Advanced Recreational Trimix course where you learn to dive to 51m. There are some good instructors in Germany for it. If you go to Sparmann, I know a good one for you.

Mikael
05-10-2017, 11:44 PM
thanks a lot... the issue bing no car :) and neither of us like driving in berlin. and the visibility in these lakes is pretty bad been to one for a dry suit dive and it wasnt fun. :/
something like lake conztance would be so much better ;)

Good viz is always nice but with practice you'll adjust so low viz dives are in your comfort zone as well. If you want to go to caves or deeper technical dives in the future than being able to dive in low to zero viz is a must.