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JonG
13-09-2017, 04:45 PM
In my quest for a second hand Classic unit and in the course of researching the options, reading the user manual, trawling the net etc. some queries have arisen that I wanted to raise with other users if that is OK?

Initially there will be long hours of shallow work on it to understand it and trim it etc. but ultimately I would be keen to use it down to circa 70m and maybe beyond as experience and knowledge accumulate steadily. I am open circuit mix qualified (a long time ago).

What inboard cylinders are preferred, aluminium or steel?

Can any back-plate and wing be used, I have a Zeagle?

How is your unit configured in terms of electronics and bailout gas and why (i.e. is the bailout plumbed into the unit or separate or a combination if using 2 or more bailout cylinders)?

What is the minimum electronic set up (I may have budgetary constraints and have to upgrade over time)?

What are realistic costs for 2nd hand units, I have seen one for 2.5k but had no cylinders, computer, handset, cam bands or harness, but did include a HUD also had some cave scrapes, this seemed expensive to me.......but what do I know!

When buying SH are there any obvious issues to look out for in terms of wear/damage, ill advised mods etc.?

Many thanks.

Capt Morgan
13-09-2017, 06:50 PM
I found the Kiss quite easy to learn, by building and stripping it over and over again you will soon see how it works.
The buoyancy was about the biggest change but I soon got that sorted, breathing out, into the loop, won't stop you going up :blush:
I don't know anyone who dives it with ali cylinders when using a dry suit, 3l steel cylinders are chosen by most and I find that
3l dumpy cylinders are a nice choice.
I used the same back plate and wing that I used with my twins but soon changed the wing to a smaller one as it was getting in
the way when trying to reach the valves to shut down the gas. I still use the same SS BP and harness though.
The Kiss triple display is actually very good with each cell having it's own cable, power supply and display giving true redundancy.
A Shearwater wired into the kidney along with a HUD is nice and simple to use but at the price of redundancy. I first dived with the
kiss triple display and a stand alone VR3 for my deco, then I took one display off and hooked the VR3 to read one cell and give real
time deco. Lastly I fitted a new kidney wired to a HUD and Shearwater but all that can be done over time.
I hook my BOV into my deep stage with a QC6 connector as I don't like the thought of bailing out to a 3l but that's just my choice.
As far as price goes it's best to keep an eye on the market to gauge a price, so many units have modifications it's hard to put a price
for "a Kiss" but 2.5k for what you described seems a bit high in my opinion.

OutOfTest
13-09-2017, 07:47 PM
In my quest for a second hand Classic unit and in the course of researching the options, reading the user manual, trawling the net etc. some queries have arisen that I wanted to raise with other users if that is OK?

Initially there will be long hours of shallow work on it to understand it and trim it etc. but ultimately I would be keen to use it down to circa 70m and maybe beyond as experience and knowledge accumulate steadily. I am open circuit mix qualified (a long time ago).

What inboard cylinders are preferred, aluminium or steel?

Can any back-plate and wing be used, I have a Zeagle?

How is your unit configured in terms of electronics and bailout gas and why (i.e. is the bailout plumbed into the unit or separate or a combination if using 2 or more bailout cylinders)?

What is the minimum electronic set up (I may have budgetary constraints and have to upgrade over time)?

What are realistic costs for 2nd hand units, I have seen one for 2.5k but had no cylinders, computer, handset, cam bands or harness, but did include a HUD also had some cave scrapes, this seemed expensive to me.......but what do I know!

When buying SH are there any obvious issues to look out for in terms of wear/damage, ill advised mods etc.?

Many thanks.

Steel onboards 3L dumpy preferably. But I've dived it with 1 cylinder, no cylinders, odd cylinders. From Ali 0.5s to steel 5s and they all feel the same. Don't fret.

Pretty much any backplate yeah. I don't use a wing though.

Unit is unit, bailout is bailout. End of discussion. BOV plumbs into the dil manifold wherever the dil is coming from. But this is only to give me a few breaths before switching to real bailout. I sidemount two matched Steels of bottom bailout on 99% of dives. Have used everything from single al40s through steel 3s to 20L Steels though.

I use a shearwater Petrel alone as electronics. Basically the minimum electronics is something which shows all 3 cells on your wrist. Anything else is overkill and false confidence in my mind.

As for buying, 2k should get you a unit ready to dive tomorrow apart from cells.

Watch out for cracked heads.

This advice comes from a self-trained KISS diver using it for exploratory cave dives up to 9 hours in length, 3km penetration distance and 100m+ depth. So it may not be worth listening to me as I might not know what I'm on about and it might not translate



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notdeadyet
13-09-2017, 09:50 PM
Initially there will be long hours of shallow work on it to understand it and trim it etc. but ultimately I would be keen to use it down to circa 70m and maybe beyond as experience and knowledge accumulate steadily. I am open circuit mix qualified (a long time ago).

One thing you would need to be careful of is which valve it has on it. The original stainless valve (cylindrical) was depth limited to about 65-70m depending on IP. The 2nd gen (stainless, cylindrical but with flats on the sides) is by far the best and will do 100m. The 3rd gen is plastic and (I think) pretty crap.


What inboard cylinders are preferred, aluminium or steel?

Steel. I used dumpy 3's on mine but I think these are hard to come by now (they were bloody hard to find when I bought mine in 2004). Regular 3's project beyond the top of can which would worry me as a snag risk. I think if I was buying now I would rather put 2's on it than have standard long 3's.


Can any back-plate and wing be used, I have a Zeagle?

Pretty much but you want the unit as close to your back as possible. I had a Zeagle wing on mine, the one I had had straps in the middle rather than webbing so you could make it wider so it wouldn't make too much of a cushion on your back. I think I had a Dive Rite ally backplate which with a 14Ah canister light was neutral in freshwater.


How is your unit configured in terms of electronics and bailout gas and why (i.e. is the bailout plumbed into the unit or separate or a combination if using 2 or more bailout cylinders)?

I went through various options and settled on onboard purely for dil and the BOV connected to offboard with QC's.

Electronics, I don't think you can beat the stock triple handset for resilience. It takes a LOT of failures to leave you with no useable display. I had a Shearwater on mine for a while but I took it off (I must be one of the few people that don't like Shearwaters). It was too much of a risk, SW uses a common negative on the cells so there is the potential that breaking one connection can wipe out all three cell displays. Or if the SW fails you lose everything, too. With the triple display, all the cells are truly independent, as are all the displays. To me, that's a very robust system that is hard to better. I never bothered with HUD's, I don't think they are necessary.


What is the minimum electronic set up (I may have budgetary constraints and have to upgrade over time)?

Like I said above, I don't think swapping out the triple display for something that introduces a lot of weaknesses is a great idea. The stock triple display is the best option.


What are realistic costs for 2nd hand units, I have seen one for 2.5k but had no cylinders, computer, handset, cam bands or harness, but did include a HUD also had some cave scrapes, this seemed expensive to me.......but what do I know!

If I remember right, I sold mine for 2400 in 2008 for a bare bones unit (no backplate, harness or wing) and a pair of dumpy 3's.


When buying SH are there any obvious issues to look out for in terms of wear/damage, ill advised mods etc.?

Main things:

- ADV. The diaphragms were pretty shit for a while.
- Check which version of valve it has. The 2nd gen is the best hands down. 1st gen is depth limited, 3rd gen is shit.
- Look for cracks where metal components are fixed into the head. Main places are where the elbow for the oxygen hose is and the connections to the backplate.
- Check for stripped threads. The KISS has a lot of stainless steel screws into delrin which is a real sore spot that Jetsam have never addressed (how much are a few helicoils, FFS?). Main places that get over-tightened are the cell kidney on top of the head, the faceplate on the handsets and the calibration plug on the back of each display
- BOV. I really would budget to replace it with something smaller, better performing and more reliable. The original Paragon is OK when it works but has a real tendency to not work. The Mares it was replaced with is shite. I'd budget for a Golem or a Hollis or whatever is good these days.
- Displays. There were three generations of the triple display (don't know what they use now). The two black ones were fine, the clear ones not so fine. They have a tendency to flood or crack. On the black displays, check the faceplate for cracks around the screwholes. I'm pretty sure they don't carry them as a stock spare part any more. When I got a replacement Kim said she had to hunt round the workshop for one. I'm sure you could probably have one made somewhere if you had to.

Check if the displays have been flooded. Usually the LCD will look weird or there will be corrosion on the PCB. I am not sure if PCB's are still made for the older displays. The LCD's are a stock part from Lascar but with a component desoldered from the board on the back so easy to replace.

- Retaining collars on the lungs. These can crack if over-tightened and are a ball ache to replace.

If you get one, invest in a full set of o-rings and change everything.

Most things on the KISS are easily fixable. Age is not much of a factor either. If anything, older units are better made than newer ones. I'd rather have one with old steel hoses than new miflex, steel MAV than the plastic one and the black triple displays than whatever they got replaced with. KISS is one unit that I would say really is best dived as a stock unit the way Gordon intended it to be. I think most people who own them a while fuck about with it but end up going back to its stock set up, it really doesn't need any bells or whistles.

Janos
13-09-2017, 10:35 PM
I had steel dumpy threes on mine. Tall threes were ok, but the dumpers are nicer.

I believe that rebreather are for rebreathing and bailout is for bailout, and never the two shall meet. I was fine with the paragon bov, but only ever used it for two or three breaths when (practicing) to bailout.

I can't say I ever had a problem with my third generation kiss valve. I had a spare, but never took it out if the bubble wrap.

I split one or two Counterlung rings, but these are easy enough to replace. Just unscrew the tiwers and put a new one in.

By far the best mod i made was a stainless steel case. Larger cl holes for easier access, more weight where you need it, and no dissimilar metal corrosion. Do check the the bolts unscrew freely and aren't corroded stuck.


Janos

Dave1w
13-09-2017, 11:35 PM
I found mine much better with a golem shrimp, then better again with a Hollis BOV. Made difference in CC and in OC.

I generally fed the BOV from the dil with the intention of getting a few breaths then getting into bailout, but never did it in anger.

I did sometimes have a GCS to plug my bailout into the dil regand access it all through the BOV, but only really works with air and not worth the hassle in the end.

3 litres are quite tall, and I found 2 litre steels very tidy in cold water.

On the sport and classic I never had any trouble with the 3 clear displays but I did like the shearwater and isolated HUD with a narked kidney.

A nice flat backplate that doesn't stand the unit far off your back and whatever wing you get in with works.

I just sold a basic unit for not much more than 2K, with a nice steel case - try get one of those. And really learn how to tighten bolts and screws into plastic with your fingertips as they can be fragile.

Bottom line, I don't think anyone regrets buying or diving a kiss.


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JonG
14-09-2017, 05:16 AM
Thanks very much gents much appreciated, just need to find one now!

JonG
14-09-2017, 07:48 AM
Outoftest I am intrigued as to why you don't use a wing do you rely on the lungs and dry suit?

Also have you undergone any formal rb training and then migrated to the kiss or are you self taught on rb generally.

notdeadyet
14-09-2017, 08:10 AM
Depends on what you are planning on diving. In caves you can get away without a wing.

In open water I think it's a fairly risky way to dive. BMCL rebreathers breathe better the closer to your back you can get them. My Mk15 is noticeably different without a wing, KISS is similar. I dived it for a long time with just the drysuit but it doesn't take much to make it a struggle at the surface. Especially in rough weather. Then you have zero backup, too.

I converted a Fladen lifejacket for use with my unit instead of a wing. Worked alright, very compact.

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dunk67
14-09-2017, 10:30 AM
What inboard cylinders are preferred, aluminium or steel?

Can any back-plate and wing be used, I have a Zeagle?

How is your unit configured in terms of electronics and bailout gas and why (i.e. is the bailout plumbed into the unit or separate or a combination if using 2 or more bailout cylinders)?

What is the minimum electronic set up (I may have budgetary constraints and have to upgrade over time)?

What are realistic costs for 2nd hand units, I have seen one for 2.5k but had no cylinders, computer, handset, cam bands or harness, but did include a HUD also had some cave scrapes, this seemed expensive to me.......but what do I know!

When buying SH are there any obvious issues to look out for in terms of wear/damage, ill advised mods etc.?

Many thanks.

Steel cylinders with a drysuit, only ever used ali bottles in Bali doing MOD1. I prefer 2 litre cylinders but use 3's if I am diving remote for a couple of days.

Standard Apeks backplate, harness and wing from my twinset, bolted straight on.

My unit was configured and imported to Denmark Easter 2015 by a Danish instructor. He never got round to assembling it and I bought it 6 months later 'undived' for 3800. Excluding cylinders, backplate, harness and wing (which I already had). It has a SW Petrel and a SW Hud. The Hud saved a long weekends diving in Scapa last March when the Petrel fried itself.

For offboard bailout I fitted the AP gas connection system which runs through the manifold. I plug my deepest bottle into the unit and this is connected to the bov only.

Hollis BOV which I like, nice and simple, and breathes nicely CC to 80m and OC to 60m (never tried deeper!). Unit is rated to 90m as standard, but I have upgraded recently for MOD3.

I have a manual add valve on the diluent side which is the way the unit came, probably unnecessary.

I added a N@90 stand as the unit is very short and difficult to don on a bench otherwise, it also means there is a handle for my rib buddies.

Narked at 90 are now holding quite a few kiss spares.

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 02:31 PM
Outoftest I am intrigued as to why you don't use a wing do you rely on the lungs and dry suit?

Also have you undergone any formal rb training and then migrated to the kiss or are you self taught on rb generally.

Self taught CCR start to finish. I remember walking through the car park at capernwray on my first dive with it thinking "I hope someone stops me soon"

I don't use a wing because, simply put, I don't see a situation where it will help me.

If my drysuit floods it's going to happen in one of two places:
1. A long way from home, so I'll die of hypothermia before I get out, even if I had buoyancy
2. Close to home, so in caves I can crawl out

It's also amazing, I have learnt from painful experience, how big a hole really has to be to stop you being able to use a drysuit for buoyancy.


So lacking a situation where I see it helping me, I decided to keep the system simpler.

All this said, for a particular project im currently looking for a wing for it where it will be required end of.

I imagine once I put it on, i won't take it off


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JonG
14-09-2017, 03:06 PM
Thanks outoftest I will be OW so will use a wing. We are only the other side of the pennines from you so might be tapping you up for advice! What promoted you to go down the self taught route.

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 03:16 PM
To avoid an overly heated debate on many subjects...I just work better that why.

I don't need to know correct drills. I need to know how something works.

Know how something works, you can figure out drills that work for individual scenarios. For example, I seem to think on the KISS course they teach you to go vertical, close the loop, lift it above your head, and put it back in your mouth to get rid of excess water in the loop hoses.

You simply can't do it whilst scootering/swimming along.

You can do a barrel roll though, which is quicker, works just as well, and is safer as it doesn't rely upon removing the loop from your gob.

ebt
14-09-2017, 03:24 PM
Im sure my replies will duplicate some others.... welcome to the world of forums ;)



What inboard cylinders are preferred, aluminium or steel?


Dumpy steel 3's are lovely on it. I did dabble with 5's once, but i regretted that. they were bloody heavy/bulky and you have to question why you need that volume on a breather.



Can any back-plate and wing be used, I have a Zeagle?


you *could* use a zeagle, but frankly you'd be better off with a cheap wing ~38-40 lbs. I ran mine an agir brok 38, but i've also had holycon and dave rite on it.



How is your unit configured in terms of electronics and bailout gas and why (i.e. is the bailout plumbed into the unit or separate or a combination if using 2 or more bailout cylinders)?


Mine was kept on the original displays. i liked a lot of what the likes of shearwater had to offer, but couldnt ever get it out of my head that gordons design was 3 fully independent meters. the only common failure points were the risk of chopping th handset cable or flooding the loop.

After unit 69 plugging in offboards became a bit easier, mine was 40 so i never got around to it. I had the bits to do it, but the lump was so reliable i never got around to it. My dives tended to max out at about 4 - 4.5 hours, if they'd gone much beyond that, then offboards wouldve become more important. I honestly think you're best to keep it as stock until you've done a lot of diving/limit pushing on it, then make mods on the basis of the real requirements you have then.

KISS can also be applied to bailouts, its a lot harder to fuckup gas mixes etc when you have physically separate bailouts.




What is the minimum electronic set up (I may have budgetary constraints and have to upgrade over time)?


As it comes. Frankly there are people who've done some massive dives on the kiss, you dont *need* all the bells and whistles.




When buying SH are there any obvious issues to look out for in terms of wear/damage, ill advised mods etc.?


I come across as a luddite whenever i reply to this..... the basic unit is pretty damn sound. Most of the mods people 'need' are down to poor practise (eg the adv mod is usually a symptom of people pulling long hard negatives on it).

Things to watch for;

head cracks near the o2 inlet pipe, thats terminal.
stripped threads, its all screws into raw delrin so the average dive chimp chews them up.
flapper valves. these should be changed/inspected at least yearly.
display boards. the best thing you can do with these is pull them out, clean them then spray with conformal coating.


Genuinely, its the lada of the rebreather world. Its basic, bloody reliable and can (mostly) be fixed with tool/parts you'll find in a local diy store.

JonG
14-09-2017, 03:31 PM
Thanks ebt so what did you run for decompression? I must admit I would prefer to start with the base unit but as of yet not much choice in the SH market but will keep looking.

ebt
14-09-2017, 03:57 PM
This really is a "drop your trousers" reply ;)

Open ocean: precut tables for the serious dives, and ratio deco (a version of).
Caves: ratio deco for the serious ones, precut schedules for the caves i 'knew' and a trusty cochrane commander as a backup.

The shearwaters are certainly more elegant, but I'd argue that given the fuzzy nature of deco, theres room for other methods too.

In the real world your dives should be limited by your OC bailout schedule anyway. In my opinion (bear in mind its free!), a common mistake folks make is to use their bells and whistles toy with all its shiney computers and they forget to be limited by bailout. Modern toys will let you get yourself into a lot of trouble when it all goes wrong.

JonG
14-09-2017, 04:16 PM
Thanks for your honesty ebt, as a returning diver, when I had to quit in the late nineties all we we had then were dodgy tables cut from software developed in a bedroom somewhere! Initially I may end up on DP to keep costs under control.

I didn't know the Cochrane could be configured for RB?

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 04:17 PM
Little picture for you. It's one of those things I always think "why don't more people do this?"

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17760929_10209277839998836_8180167751994071505_o.j pg?oh=004783245a39822c6b17d9e324fbea83&oe=5A167AB7

Going on a training dive here. Note the two regulators hung around my neck. They both contain breathable gases during the main portion of the dive and are always turned on. They hang in the same place my OC regs do. So it's a pretty standard response to grab one of them, this is in addition to the BOV already in my gob. 3 regulators all within very easy, very practiced, reach should they be required.

Keeping things simple; Each of the cylinders I wear on the side will get me 75% of the way out from the furthest point of a dive breathing at over double my normal rate. So between the two, breathing normally, I could do the very same dive OC within thirds.

People will tell you this is overly conservative and limiting. I've done 2 hour inwards penetration (4 hours total) bottom time at 70-80m using this method comfortably.

Lots of bailout, having the skills to carry it, and not being afraid to use it WILL, no ifs or buts, dramatically increase your chances of not dying.

Mark Chase
14-09-2017, 06:35 PM
As most people have said Dumpy 3ltrs are ideal standard 3ltr steel are fine.

I used several diferent back plates and wings on my KISS and as long as the back plate is low profle you will be good to go

Bailout for me was off board cylinder plumbed directly into the BOV . Having the BOV plumbed into in board gives too little gas to recover from a C02 hit before trying to go OC. I also woulden't want to lose my wing inflate in a FUBAR

Electronics. Standard displays are cheep and fine but Having a Sheerwater is 100 X better if you can stretch to it.

A stand is very usefull for sitting and waiting on boats

If your lucky enough to see one that offers the SS counterlung case, grab it.

Look for cracked fittings on the counterlungs and the dreaded hair line crack below the 02 elbow that connects to the can

Look for stripped threads in the head.

I sold my KISS with no wing or back plate and no tanks standard displays but with a load of spares and upgraded BOV and a SS counterlung case with stand, for 1500.00

PM me your email and ill send more detailed infor on all my KISS mods

Capt Morgan
14-09-2017, 06:40 PM
Is that some insulation board strapped to the stages?

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17760929_10209277839998836_8180167751994071505_o.j pg?oh=004783245a39822c6b17d9e324fbea83&oe=5A167AB7

Paulo
14-09-2017, 06:49 PM
Little picture for you. It's one of those things I always think "why don't more people do this?"

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17760929_10209277839998836_8180167751994071505_o.j pg?oh=004783245a39822c6b17d9e324fbea83&oe=5A167AB7

Going on a training dive here. Note the two regulators hung around my neck. They both contain breathable gases during the main portion of the dive and are always turned on. They hang in the same place my OC regs do. So it's a pretty standard response to grab one of them, this is in addition to the BOV already in my gob. 3 regulators all within very easy, very practiced, reach should they be required.

Keeping things simple; Each of the cylinders I wear on the side will get me 75% of the way out from the furthest point of a dive breathing at over double my normal rate. So between the two, breathing normally, I could do the very same dive OC within thirds.

People will tell you this is overly conservative and limiting. I've done 2 hour inwards penetration (4 hours total) bottom time at 70-80m using this method comfortably.

Lots of bailout, having the skills to carry it, and not being afraid to use it WILL, no ifs or buts, dramatically increase your chances of not dying.

What are the pieces of timber for?

Darren A
14-09-2017, 07:32 PM
What are the pieces of timber for?

Buoyancy I'd assume?

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 07:40 PM
Is that some insulation board strapped to the stages?



Of course. What else would you use?

And yeah, buoyancy.

Two 20L cylinders that are always full + O2 and 50% stages which are always full and some multi-sump caves require you to wear 20L steels but also transfer 12L steels for different jobs etc...everything can suddenly get very very negative.

The insulation board doesn't work too bad but dies below about 90m and only lasts one or two dives. I've recently got a tonne of ROV syntactic foam that's much better.

Capt Morgan
14-09-2017, 07:46 PM
Of course. What else would you use?

And yeah, buoyancy.

Two 20L cylinders that are always full + O2 and 50% stages which are always full and some multi-sump caves require you to wear 20L steels but also transfer 12L steels for different jobs etc...everything can suddenly get very very negative.

The insulation board doesn't work too bad but dies below about 90m and only lasts one or two dives. I've recently got a tonne of ROV syntactic foam that's much better.

Two 20L cylinders would explain it, I thought they were ali 80's ;)
Did you get the syntactic foam in cut off form?

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 07:49 PM
Two 20L cylinders would explain it, I thought they were ali 80's ;)
Did you get the syntactic foam in cut off form?

My mate with too much money has just ordered a boxful which looks like this https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21731690_10154764234071561_5294687095940358397_o.j pg?oh=0d54a06bca6b01ed012bfa376fc27ed3&oe=5A5AAEF6

So I nicked a load off him.

I have a few other mates who are slowly giving up rather serious cave diving so I've also being nicking it off them.

Also, as an aside. My 20L cylinders full to 260bar of 15/55 are only 2kg negative. Similar to a 12L of 21/35

Capt Morgan
14-09-2017, 07:56 PM
My mate with too much money has just ordered a boxful which looks like this https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21731690_10154764234071561_5294687095940358397_o.j pg?oh=0d54a06bca6b01ed012bfa376fc27ed3&oe=5A5AAEF6

So I nicked a load off him.

I have a few other mates who are slowly giving up rather serious cave diving so I've also being nicking it off them.

Also, as an aside. My 20L cylinders full to 260bar of 15/55 are only 2kg negative. Similar to a 12L of 21/35

Well at least it will wear better than the insulation.
You seem to do some long dives, how do you manage the scrubber?
The syntactic coating is quite tempting.

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 08:01 PM
Well at least it will wear better than the insulation.
You seem to do some long dives, how do you manage the scrubber?
The syntactic coating is quite tempting.

I tested it to 8 hours in open water over repeated dives. So I set myself a limit of 6 for caves.

Then I needed to do a dive over 8 hours, but the last few would be sat in a habitat. So I just sat in the habitat really paranoid, but it was actually fine and I dove out through the first sump as well for another hour. So nearly 10 hours on that scrubber.

Since that dive, which went fine, but didn't calm my nerves about going over 6, I've started chucking a little O2 rebreather in for the final deco stop, or doing it OC, or the deco on a sidemount breather...

But I rarely through a scrubber away before 6 hours are on it. I pack them with a hammer.

I've got no scrubber insulation.

Capt Morgan
14-09-2017, 08:19 PM
I tested it to 8 hours in open water over repeated dives. So I set myself a limit of 6 for caves.

Then I needed to do a dive over 8 hours, but the last few would be sat in a habitat. So I just sat in the habitat really paranoid, but it was actually fine and I dove out through the first sump as well for another hour. So nearly 10 hours on that scrubber.

Since that dive, which went fine, but didn't calm my nerves about going over 6, I've started chucking a little O2 rebreather in for the final deco stop, or doing it OC, or the deco on a sidemount breather...

But I rarely through a scrubber away before 6 hours are on it. I pack them with a hammer.

I've got no scrubber insulation.

What sorb do you use? I use 408 because it's recommended
but then again I don't go down holes for 8-10 hours ;)
The O2 unit is a good idea.

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 08:22 PM
What sorb do you use? I use 408 because it's recommended
but then again I don't go down holes for 8-10 hours ;)
The O2 unit is a good idea.

797 cos it's better, and what KISS use for the test on the machine.

http://www.kissrebreathers.com/pdf/scrubberClassic.pdf


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Capt Morgan
14-09-2017, 08:32 PM
797 cos it's better, and what KISS use for the test on the machine.

http://www.kissrebreathers.com/pdf/scrubberClassic.pdf


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Yea what they used but not what they recommend ;)
I used it once and can't say I noticed any difference in the WOB.

Janos
14-09-2017, 09:03 PM
for example, I seem to think on the KISS course they teach you to go vertical, close the loop, lift it above your head, and put it back in your mouth to get rid of excess water in the loop hoses..

Nooooooo!!!! This is dangerous advice.

You can't do this on a kiss! You'll flood the scrubber! To clear the kiss drop yiur right shoulder and get the water into the exhale cl.

Janos

ebt
14-09-2017, 09:42 PM
I tested it to 8 hours in open water over repeated dives. So I set myself a limit of 6 for caves.

Then I needed to do a dive over 8 hours, but the last few would be sat in a habitat. So I just sat in the habitat really paranoid, but it was actually fine and I dove out through the first sump as well for another hour. So nearly 10 hours on that scrubber.

Since that dive, which went fine, but didn't calm my nerves about going over 6, I've started chucking a little O2 rebreather in for the final deco stop, or doing it OC, or the deco on a sidemount breather...

But I rarely through a scrubber away before 6 hours are on it. I pack them with a hammer.

I've got no scrubber insulation.

Ash, i get bored of all the serious bollocks .......but sometimes people can be too flippant.

"i pack my scrubber with a hammer", is the line trotted out by someone who clearly doesnt understand that the KISS scrubber isnt the best performer in terms of WOB. as for "i tested it", lets be honest.... you breathed it like a lab rat. If i wanted an expert opinion on a medication, I wouldnt listen to the lab rat.

The scrubber data for the kiss is in the public domain and like many I've pushed it beyond that test point, but you need to think "real world". what if you have a slightly iffy fill, what if you worked harder... etc etc.

Mark Chase
14-09-2017, 10:23 PM
I ran six hours on my KISS on multiple shallow cave dives in Mexico warm water (20C) running Spherasorb I may have done a tad more but the plan was always six max

Spherasorb is not as long lasting as Sofnalime but it breaths easier in the KISS

KISS had a reputation for high WOB but 90% of that can be fixed by binning the standard Paragon BOV and replaceing it with a Hollis or Golum Shrimp

Longest single dive was 4 hour 15mins to 75m max in 14c water. Took it to 90ish a few times but it was only a 3 hour dive due to boat limits

I also pack it pretty tight as I do all my scrubbers. Lots and lots of tapping on the side of the scrubber with a rubber mallet and I had a line scribed on the inside of the tube to let me know when I had 1mm of compression for the lid.

Using the kiss sites calculations I thoreticly can do 11 hours on the KISS scrubber with my SAC and Sofnalime

Planning scrubber time one needs to take everything into account. Water temp work load and SAC.

Reguardless of how you look at it, every hour you spend on unit increases your risk 2 hours is less safe than 1 hour and 6 hours is a lot less safe than 3 hours


Scrubber packing is a difficult argument. My instructor was Paul R Marks who owned unit 5 or something on the Inspo Classic.

He said the only way to avoid inconsistent fills is to pack it tight every time

I did this for years then Martin Parker came out with a loose fill recommendation. I wasn't impressed with the wide range of different fills this resulted in so with it so stuck with tight fills.

My mate Pete did the MP fill as per the video and then I spent a few seconds slapping his scrubber and after that it could have been used in a band as a meracca. God knows what it would be like after four hours bouncing around on a boat.

I am sure theres good argument for loose fills in terms of WOB but seeing as I never felt like I was in trouble on the KISS or any other unit, I stuck with what I knew worked for me.




So far so good

ebt
14-09-2017, 10:32 PM
Using the kiss sites calculations I thoreticly can do 11 hours on the KISS scrubber with my SAC and Sofnalime


Genuine question. I'd love to see those calcs....

the problem with scrubber pushing is when someone has a 'moment' on an already loaded scrubber, your time to breakthrough is then very low. Ive seen people pushing the scrubber, Ive watched the "mickey mouse" eyes, and I've watched the abject horror when they realise they have to swap mouthpieces. My gut feeling is that people underestimate how basic the urge the breath is when co2 comes knocking. A mate of mine once said "i was sucking on that bov harder than a $500 dollar hooker". clearly the important question is how the fuck he knew what that felt like ;)

OutOfTest
14-09-2017, 10:45 PM
Ash, i get bored of all the serious bollocks .......but sometimes people can be too flippant.

"i pack my scrubber with a hammer", is the line trotted out by someone who clearly doesnt understand that the KISS scrubber isnt the best performer in terms of WOB. as for "i tested it", lets be honest.... you breathed it like a lab rat. If i wanted an expert opinion on a medication, I wouldnt listen to the lab rat.

The scrubber data for the kiss is in the public domain and like many I've pushed it beyond that test point, but you need to think "real world". what if you have a slightly iffy fill, what if you worked harder... etc etc.

Appreciate your post and you make some good points.

Sometimes things don't translate well in text form and I think you may have misread my general attitude here.

Specifically referencing the two hour difference between what I tested it to and what I generally dive it to. The conditions in which I pushed beyond that (habitat, nothing to do but sit paying attention to what you're doing and how it breathes)

I also pointed out going beyond 6 isn't something I do regularly still, not because I think I can't but rather I didn't like the level of nervousness it gave me.

Packing with a hammer, as mark alluded to, produces nice, consistent fills inspiring confidence in them. Rather than a flippant comment implying that this suddenly doubles scrubber time. I also really don't think the KISS has bad WOB at all. But maybe that's due to the amount of time I spend on it. 268 hours in the last 18 months probably keeps my diaphragm pretty well trained.

Nearly done; this isn't pushing for the sake of it. This is what's required to do the dives I'm doing.

So why not build a bigger canister? Essentially, quite a few of the people I'm diving with on a regular basis do the same, and bigger, dives on the same canister. Various comparisons between myself and them lead me to believe cautiously testing would be a suitable approach.

However, if you can see another reasonably practicable way around the issue, please let me know (that's not meant to sound facetious, promise)


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Mark Chase
14-09-2017, 10:57 PM
Genuine question. I'd love to see those calcs....

the problem with scrubber pushing is when someone has a 'moment' on an already loaded scrubber, your time to breakthrough is then very low. Ive seen people pushing the scrubber, Ive watched the "mickey mouse" eyes, and I've watched the abject horror when they realise they have to swap mouthpieces. My gut feeling is that people underestimate how basic the urge the breath is when co2 comes knocking. A mate of mine once said "i was sucking on that bov harder than a $500 dollar hooker". clearly the important question is how the fuck he knew what that felt like ;)


C02 = 85% V02
V02 = 4% RMV

My RMV 12lpm

4% 12 = 0.48

85% 0.48 = 0.408

Duration of kiss scrubber at C02 production rate of 1.6lpm Co2 is 157mins

1.6 devided by 0.408= 3.92 X 157 = 615


So 10 hours 15mins duration on the scrubber on a 12 SAC at 4c to 40m

Temperature and depth are major factors in scrubber duration calculation so diveing at 20c to max 16m in mexico, I was pretty confident in my 11 hours estimate

Mark Chase
14-09-2017, 11:02 PM
On the second point of elevated breathing, I totally agree but as with all deep and long dives you work with what you have got. I did loads of OC diveing with much tighter margins of error and no bailout


Same with other aspects of the dive.

When we planned the dive to 145m we couldn't get any reasnoble bottom time and get below 6hours with VR3s running their planner software. So we eneded up planning VPMB2 deco to get below six hours.

VPMB knocked something mad like an hour and a half off deco. I was a damed site more worried about the deco than I was about the scrubber.

Paulo
15-09-2017, 06:21 AM
Nevermind. Figured it out myself

Brad_Horn
15-09-2017, 09:21 AM
http://www.kissrebreathers.com/pdf/scrubberClassic.pdf
The quoted scrubber duration seems to fail a simple logic test if you compare it with the similarly sized Inspo which gives "Rule No 2 - For dives deeper than 20m, the diver must leave the bottom when the total time breathed from the unit reaches 140 minutes (for CO2 produced at 1.6 lpm)."
So seems to be a little something that KISS are failing to declare with regards the actual duration at 40m!

A good on topic article http://johnclarkeonline.com/2015/07/30/diving-a-rebreather-in-frigid-water-canister-concerns/ and http://johnclarkeonline.com/2014/08/17/does-your-rebreather-scrubber-operate-in-its-goldilocks-zone/

OutOfTest
15-09-2017, 09:42 AM
The quoted scrubber duration seems to fail a simple logic test if you compare it with the similarly sized Inspo which gives "Rule No 2 - For dives deeper than 20m, the diver must leave the bottom when the total time breathed from the unit reaches 140 minutes (for CO2 produced at 1.6 lpm)."
So seems to be a little something that KISS are failing to declare with regards the actual duration at 40m!

A good on topic article http://johnclarkeonline.com/2015/07/30/diving-a-rebreather-in-frigid-water-canister-concerns/ and http://johnclarkeonline.com/2014/08/17/does-your-rebreather-scrubber-operate-in-its-goldilocks-zone/

You are familiar with the testing procedure?

That's the inspo recommended "rule"

Where is their test data?


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Mark Chase
15-09-2017, 09:42 AM
The quoted scrubber duration seems to fail a simple logic test if you compare it with the similarly sized Inspo which gives "Rule No 2 - For dives deeper than 20m, the diver must leave the bottom when the total time breathed from the unit reaches 140 minutes (for CO2 produced at 1.6 lpm)."
So seems to be a little something that KISS are failing to declare with regards the actual duration at 40m!

A good on topic article http://johnclarkeonline.com/2015/07/30/diving-a-rebreather-in-frigid-water-canister-concerns/ and http://johnclarkeonline.com/2014/08/17/does-your-rebreather-scrubber-operate-in-its-goldilocks-zone/

Back in the day the KISS scrubber was always reguarded as a longerduration scrubber than the Inspo due to the dwell time in the longer can on the KISS. Obviously this was also the cause of the increased WOB so its horses for courses.
The inspo scrubber is rated 180mins with their test profile? So I didn't think the 157mins of the KISS at 40m to be so outrageous?


Reguadless: I know divers who have dived 10 hours on the Inspo Classic (cave diveing so swimming most of it) and lived and Divers who have done 6+ on the KISS

If you talk to JJ personaly about the run times he's done on 2.2kg scrubbers your hair will turn white.

But going back to the car thing I have driven cars at 170mph without a scratch. How many times I was that close to dieing I have no idea

Same with pushing the scrubber

When I started diveing CCR I was totally paranoid about the cells and 02 tox / no o2 passing out

None of those isues I consider important any more. Its easy to keep PPo2 at survivable levels

C02 is the killer

I have been narked on C02 once (on OC) and seen divers narked on C02. Once your off your tits you stand no chance of "managing it" its all down to luck after that.

CCR has a hidden danger

In my OC days I did plenty (like hundreds) of 40m-50m air dives and quite a few between 50 and 80m

I managed the narcosis quite well. Unlike some I remember the dives and I have taken some good (by my standards) video down at 70m on air.


Now after 13 years on trimix on a CCR max END 20m I get narked off my tits at 30m in warm blue water single tank dives

In the UK on 30m dives on CCR ill be on my 21/35 trimix or 18/45 if its left in the tin from last time

If I dive Stoney cove I am on 21/35

notdeadyet
15-09-2017, 10:42 AM
Genuine question. I'd love to see those calcs....

the problem with scrubber pushing is when someone has a 'moment' on an already loaded scrubber, your time to breakthrough is then very low. Ive seen people pushing the scrubber, Ive watched the "mickey mouse" eyes, and I've watched the abject horror when they realise they have to swap mouthpieces. My gut feeling is that people underestimate how basic the urge the breath is when co2 comes knocking. A mate of mine once said "i was sucking on that bov harder than a $500 dollar hooker". clearly the important question is how the fuck he knew what that felt like ;)It was 100 quid and I got breakfast and a cuddle as well.

It always makes me smile seeing heroic run times put on the KISS scrubber, too. It is clearly possible but is it wise? I don't think so. It's not just about endurance but resilience as well and it's resilience that worries me more.

My co2 hit was on fresh lime and only maybe 40 min in. Wasn't even that much water that got into the can. At 6 hours in, you're fucked. Relying on not cocking up flies in the face of human nature.

Like a lot of people, I self taught. The big downside of that is finding the line for yourself. You can cross into arse fucking territory a hundred times without getting arse fucked. It makes you think arse fucking will never happen to you. You get all the others telling you they never got arse fucked so you'll be fine. Then one day some Fedor Emilianenko looking bastard turns up with a 16 inch boner and a glint in his eye and all you can say is "but... but... but...". Had you stayed 10 minutes short of that line you could spend the rest of your life there without knowing bum love.

I am long past worrying about people I don't know.

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Paul Evans
15-09-2017, 10:46 AM
It was 100 quid and I got breakfast and a cuddle as well.

It always makes me smile seeing heroic run times put on the KISS scrubber, too. It is clearly possible but is it wise? I don't think so. It's not just about endurance but resilience as well and it's resilience that worries me more.

My co2 hit was on fresh lime and only maybe 40 min in. Wasn't even that much water that got into the can. At 6 hours in, you're fucked. Relying on not cocking up flies in the face of human nature.

Like a lot of people, I self taught. The big downside of that is finding the line for yourself. You can cross into arse fucking territory a hundred times without getting arse fucked. It makes you think arse fucking will never happen to you. You get all the others telling you they never got arse fucked so you'll be fine. Then one day some Fedor Emilianenko looking bastard turns up with a 16 inch boner and a glint in his eye and all you can say is "but... but... but...". Had you stayed 10 minutes short of that line you could spend the rest of your life there without knowing bum love.

I am long past worrying about people I don't know.

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Fooking Epic :rofl:

ebt
15-09-2017, 03:13 PM
Appreciate your post and you make some good points.

Sometimes things don't translate well in text form and I think you may have misread my general attitude here.

Specifically referencing the two hour difference between what I tested it to and what I generally dive it to. The conditions in which I pushed beyond that (habitat, nothing to do but sit paying attention to what you're doing and how it breathes)


Fairy snuff. I pack so theres no rattle (since theres no compression springs), but no tighter. I dont see the point in overly tight fills, since i suspect the increased WOB would cause more co2 production that it would remove from extra lime.

As for 'training your diaphragm', the WOB issue is more about the CO2 you will generate from breathing. The KISS doesnt have the greatest of wobs. personally I dont view it as the end of the world, but then my mantra has always been to let your breathing rate dictate your workload...and not vice versa.

If you truly want a bigger can, you might to get in touch with phillipe gerrin, i think he fettled one when he was sourcing the clear scrubber cans. FWIW i suspect you're in 'go and build a homebuild kiss inspired unit' if you want to make those kind of changes.

ebt
15-09-2017, 03:15 PM
Then one day some Fedor Emilianenko looking bastard turns up with a 16 inch boner and a glint in his eye and all you can say is "but... but... but...". Had you stayed 10 minutes short of that line you could spend the rest of your life there without knowing bum love.


"butt butt butt", surely thats an invitation...

OutOfTest
15-09-2017, 03:17 PM
Fairy snuff. I pack so theres no rattle (since theres no compression springs), but no tighter. I dont see the point in overly tight fills, since i suspect the increased WOB would cause more co2 production that it would remove from extra lime.

As for 'training your diaphragm', the WOB issue is more about the CO2 you will generate from breathing. The KISS doesnt have the greatest of wobs. personally I dont view it as the end of the world, but then my mantra has always been to let your breathing rate dictate your workload...and not vice versa.

If you truly want a bigger can, you might to get in touch with phillipe gerrin, i think he fettled one when he was sourcing the clear scrubber cans. FWIW i suspect you're in 'go and build a homebuild kiss inspired unit' if you want to make those kind of changes.

Nah, I've got a long list of mates with homemade larger cans that fit on standard KISS.

And diaphragm training does actually make sense (if it's even a thing, I only said it for a joke kind of, but I don't see why it wouldn't be?)

You produce more CO2 when your muscles work harder.

If your muscles are used to working harder, to them, it's normal working. So they produce less CO2.

Same reason old fatties produce/breath more than young fitties (generalisation, I know)


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Mark Chase
15-09-2017, 04:41 PM
Nah, I've got a long list of mates with homemade larger cans that fit on standard KISS.

And diaphragm training does actually make sense (if it's even a thing, I only said it for a joke kind of, but I don't see why it wouldn't be?)

You produce more CO2 when your muscles work harder.

If your muscles are used to working harder, to them, it's normal working. So they produce less CO2.

Same reason old fatties produce/breath more than young fitties (generalisation, I know)


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You may want to look into the science of this as top level athleets produce MORE co2 per breath than unfit people per breath

Granted they may take fewer breaths :D

ATB

JonG
19-09-2017, 09:14 PM
Bit excited might have found a unit. Hasn't been used for around 10 years owner had a wobble and jacked.

It's local and was tracked down by LDS owner who is looking it over tomorrow.

Has a full set of new o rings not sure on cost yet though.

It does have Poseidon first stages though and I wasn't sure if there were permissible.

notdeadyet
19-09-2017, 09:28 PM
It does have Poseidon first stages though and I wasn't sure if there were permissible.

People have bodged a seal on Poseidon first stages in the past, especially on homebuilds. Wouldn't be my choice, I've always found Poseidons a bit finnicky and hard to work on at home. If they work then they work but I'd rather have Apeks as I'm really not a fan of Poseidon.

May be an obvious question but does the LDS owner know what he's looking at when it comes to a KISS?

Age shouldn't really be a problem. If anything, may be a benefit as it probably won't have they shitty miflex hoses or the crap plastic MAV.

JonG
19-09-2017, 09:55 PM
Yeah he taught god to dive, has had an inspo, now dives a hollis, he knows the actual unit and dived with the owner. He was telling me the inject rate of o2 and how it was adjustable.

I have also sent him a spreadsheet collating the salient points from the thread to have a look at.

He his hoping to get back to the shop and then I can get my paws on it!

Got the green lights from missus too, which is essential obviously.

JonG
19-09-2017, 09:58 PM
His dad before him was a diver who used to fly up and down to scapa in his cessna. He had some tales to tell incl. how they used to use small amounts of explosive to liberate artefacts!

MikeF
19-09-2017, 10:28 PM
I've been diving since before stab jackets and drysuits were in vogue, diving rebreathers since 2005, used to work as a life support systems engineer and did my thesis on work of breathing but I know nothing about what to really look for in a secondhand KISS. I'd find someone that actually regularly dives / dived a KISS and has no interest in whether you buy this unit or not to look at it if I were you.

gobfish1
20-09-2017, 12:25 AM
His dad before him was a diver who used to fly up and down to scapa in his cessna. He had some tales to tell incl. how they used to use small amounts of explosive to liberate artefacts!

probe by chance,

JonG
20-09-2017, 05:17 AM
Are you local then gobfish1 you obviously know Scott!

JonG
20-09-2017, 11:39 AM
Looks like I might very soon be the owner of unit 12.

OutOfTest
20-09-2017, 03:37 PM
Price?


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Turbanator
20-09-2017, 04:22 PM
12 will have (was built with) LH O2, I reckon.

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notdeadyet
20-09-2017, 05:11 PM
12 will have (was built with) LH O2, I reckon.

Sent from my SM-G930F using TapatalkMine was 50-something and was LH O2. Unless the MAV has been changed it'll be the shallower version, too.

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JonG
20-09-2017, 06:28 PM
Yeah o2 is LH and the MAV is the original 1st gen so would need upgrading once I am more confident on the unit, it also has a sherwood BOV, metal hoses and looks in good nick but have only seen pictures up to now.

Paulo
20-09-2017, 06:29 PM
Yeah o2 is LH and the MAV is the original 1st gen so would need upgrading once I am more confident on the unit, it also has a sherwood BOV, metal hoses and looks in good nick but have only seen pictures up to now.

How much is it?

JonG
20-09-2017, 06:32 PM
About 1500 incl. the cylinders, which will need testing obviously, full spares kit too but not sure what is in that yet.

JonG
20-09-2017, 06:39 PM
Got some pictures but cant figure how to upload them

Barrygoss
20-09-2017, 08:19 PM
12 will have (was built with) LH O2, I reckon.

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The swap to RH O2 was unit 69. I believe. I'm unit 66 and I just route the O2 hose so it is RH anyway and use the oxygen tank in the RH side as well. That way it "fits" with every other unit in a boat.

B

JonG
20-09-2017, 08:22 PM
file:///C:/Users/JonGl/Documents/Work%20Images/Kiss%201.jpg

notdeadyet
20-09-2017, 08:23 PM
Yeah o2 is LH and the MAV is the original 1st gen so would need upgrading once I am more confident on the unit, it also has a sherwood BOV, metal hoses and looks in good nick but have only seen pictures up to now.I'd budget on fucking off the Poseidon regs and replacing them with a couple of Apeks, too. Poseidon are shite and god knows what state they are in after so long without use. I wouldn't even bother servicing them, punt them on ebay as is.

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Paulo
20-09-2017, 08:26 PM
file:///C:/Users/JonGl/Documents/Work%20Images/Kiss%201.jpg

You need to host the pictures somewhere online. Not paste a file path to your computer

JonG
20-09-2017, 08:37 PM
I am guessing I could start out with the Poseidon's and swap them out later or is this not feasible?

Initially everything will be freshwater training in shallow water.

Would anyone have any other concerns about such an old unit, I haven't actually seen it yet to check for obvious issues, or agreed the purchase but it seems like a good buy at the price.

ebt
20-09-2017, 08:55 PM
Another vote for ditching the possy's....i think i've got a spare of the deeper rated orifice knocking around somewhere too, let me check (Im assuming you have the round bodied metal MAV).

The sherwood BOV is a bit of a beast. breathes well, but its a bit heavy/bulky. See how you get on with it...

JonG
20-09-2017, 08:58 PM
That's correct ebt, it's the first gen cylinder version. Are any din apeks first stages ok or do they have to be a specific model

dunk67
20-09-2017, 09:06 PM
That's correct ebt, it's the first gen cylinder version. Are any din apeks first stages ok or do they have to be a specific model

Best go for DS4's, you'll need a delrin blanking plug for the O2 side and these fit the DS4.

JonG
20-09-2017, 09:13 PM
What is the issue with the poseidons out of interest

Turbanator
20-09-2017, 09:16 PM
You may need an OPV, some Poseidon regs have them built-in.
IIRC*, most of the O2 hoses are rated to 5000 psi, so should be ok, but depending where you feed the BOV from, you may not have any downstream regs on the dil side.
You'll also need a plug for the O2 side Apeks reg as the CMF valve relies on the interstage pressure staying the same despite your depth.

* I sold mine years ago, so may have forgotten some small details that could cost your life 😉


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notdeadyet
20-09-2017, 09:57 PM
Another vote for ditching the possy's....i think i've got a spare of the deeper rated orifice knocking around somewhere too, let me check (Im assuming you have the round bodied metal MAV).

The sherwood BOV is a bit of a beast. breathes well, but its a bit heavy/bulky. See how you get on with it...I didn't think the deep orifice fit the 1st gen? If it can be upgraded then that's a better plan than those shite plastic mavs.

Was it the 1st gen that needed a reversed coil spring because the button unscrewed over time? I can't remember.



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JonG
21-09-2017, 06:30 AM
Are any picture hosting sites better than others

JonG
21-09-2017, 06:57 AM
Just for the record very appreciative of all the advice and time given to the thread. Happy to reciprocate on my chosen specialisms which would be heating systems and energy efficiency renewable and fossil.
Battery storage and pv, fitness and long distance single and multiple discipline events/challenges.

ebt
21-09-2017, 07:41 AM
I didn't think the deep orifice fit the 1st gen? If it can be upgraded then that's a better plan than those shite plastic mavs.


they do if you got the specific part from norgren ;)


Was it the 1st gen that needed a reversed coil spring because the button unscrewed over time? I can't remember.


Yes. it was a free part offered at the time.

JonG
21-09-2017, 05:05 PM
EBT if you do have any spares that you are interested in selling let me know.

I am changing out the first stages for DS4's, will stick with the MAV for now and if possible change the orifice or upgrade when I am ready. Spares are available for the BOV so that can be maintained until I decide whether to upgrade it.

I need to change the loop hoses and buy a new delrin plug for the O2 stage, is Narked at 90 the best source for these and how do you know which lengths to purchase as there seems to be a range?

Also is there a good recommendation for cell purchases?

Mark Chase
22-09-2017, 07:32 AM
EBT if you do have any spares that you are interested in selling let me know.

I am changing out the first stages for DS4's, will stick with the MAV for now and if possible change the orifice or upgrade when I am ready. Spares are available for the BOV so that can be maintained until I decide whether to upgrade it.

I need to change the loop hoses and buy a new delrin plug for the O2 stage, is Narked at 90 the best source for these and how do you know which lengths to purchase as there seems to be a range?

Also is there a good recommendation for cell purchases?



Cells Narked at 90 without a doubt

Spares for the KISS can be had direct from KISS easily enough but hang fire and ill see if I have a spare blanking plug (may have some other bits as well)

PS good choice on the DS4s, much easier to live with

PM me your Email

ATB

Mark

notdeadyet
22-09-2017, 09:16 AM
Don't know what their KISS cells are like but AII's cells for my unit have been superb. Actually more reliable than Teledyne's (and they were good). AII have had a bad rep in the past but the ones I get are rock solid now. Narkedat90 are probably easier to get, though.

A couple of things you may want to invest in are an IP gauge and a Dwyer flow meter for the o2 injector. If you don't already have one then a 42mm hook spanner to open up the 1st stages.

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Janos
22-09-2017, 10:42 AM
If it can be upgraded then that's a better plan than those shite plastic mavs.

I had a plastic Mav. I even bought a spare because I was worried about it breaking. I dived it for 7 years and it just kept working. The spare never made it out if the bubble wrap. But then it was designed by Gordon so what do you expect?

Janos

notdeadyet
22-09-2017, 10:54 AM
I had a plastic Mav. I even bought a spare because I was worried about it breaking. I dived it for 7 years and it just kept working. The spare never made it out if the bubble wrap. But then it was designed by Gordon so what do you expect?

JanosOn mine the hose connections continually slackened themselves and I know that was not an uncommon problem. I suspect the move to shitty miflrx was partly to combat that as it doesn't torque the fittings the way steel hoses do.

Flow was shit on the bypass. When you pushed the button on the steel valve you got a proper shot of o2. You could even open loop your oxygen just using the bypass if you needed it. The plastic one was feeble.

I also had my doubts about it taking full pressure if the hp seat failed.

The robustness of the original oxygen injection was a big attraction for me on both my KISS and my Mk15. I see no advantage in the plastic mav and lots of disadvantages.

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JonG
23-09-2017, 07:00 AM
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PQOgAXM9Y1mq2CXj1

JonG
23-09-2017, 07:03 AM
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RsaROdMqnTN4jWtG2

Can anyone see that image now at all?

Darren A
23-09-2017, 07:21 AM
Yep, can see that

JonG
23-09-2017, 07:27 AM
Thanks Darren. These are the images so far:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SaFSZVdWPCd5wdbt2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kE92JUx93eO2S8Cf1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XdhCzDjXsnFJqBSI2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/p5gnOqd2N0cVMcNu1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/care5GiHX61Lp2Il2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/N7p0C0BKzUIRUse72
https://photos.app.goo.gl/IDpD2sEfFBuMFz4x2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xYTPzXor4HH8NUxx1

Janos
23-09-2017, 09:23 AM
Thanks Darren. These are the images so far:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SaFSZVdWPCd5wdbt2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kE92JUx93eO2S8Cf1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XdhCzDjXsnFJqBSI2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/p5gnOqd2N0cVMcNu1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/care5GiHX61Lp2Il2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/N7p0C0BKzUIRUse72
https://photos.app.goo.gl/IDpD2sEfFBuMFz4x2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xYTPzXor4HH8NUxx1


Nice. Obviously an early model. Seems in good condition

Is it me or are the loop hoses very long?

Janos

Janos
23-09-2017, 09:27 AM
On mine the hose connections continually slackened themselves and I know that was not an uncommon problem. I suspect the move to shitty miflrx was partly to combat that as it doesn't torque the fittings the way steel hoses do.

Flow was shit on the bypass. When you pushed the button on the steel valve you got a proper shot of o2. You could even open loop your oxygen just using the bypass if you needed it. The plastic one was feeble.

I also had my doubts about it taking full pressure if the hp seat failed.

The robustness of the original oxygen injection was a big attraction for me on both my KISS and my Mk15. I see no advantage in the plastic mav and lots of disadvantages.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

Each to their own I guess. I can't say I ever found the lack of o2 flow a problem. I had an opv on the first stage so it wouldn't ever see full tank pressure, and I never had a problem with hoses unscrewing. Maybe I was just lucky.

Janos

JonG
23-09-2017, 12:13 PM
Nice. Obviously an early model. Seems in good condition

Is it me or are the loop hoses very long?

Janos

Yeah loop hoses are a bit stretched must be that dock off BOV. I am trying to find out what length to order new, but had no joy with forums or Kim at KISS yet, going to speak to Danny Wright and N90 on Monday.

JonG
23-09-2017, 12:16 PM
Don't know what their KISS cells are like but AII's cells for my unit have been superb. Actually more reliable than Teledyne's (and they were good). AII have had a bad rep in the past but the ones I get are rock solid now. Narkedat90 are probably easier to get, though.

A couple of things you may want to invest in are an IP gauge and a Dwyer flow meter for the o2 injector. If you don't already have one then a 42mm hook spanner to open up the 1st stages.

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Thanks NDY, is there a good source for the spanners, gauge and flow meter? It seems to be mainly US sites that I am finding?

Janos
23-09-2017, 12:30 PM
Thanks NDY, is there a good source for the spanners, gauge and flow meter? It seems to be mainly US sites that I am finding?

I had a flow meter but never used it. I found it easier to time how long it took to fill up a two litre coke bottle (inverted and in a bucket of water, with a length of rubber hose from the mav to the bottle.)

Ap valves so an ip gauge, and c-spanners are easy to find. Plenty on eBay.

Janos

Janos
23-09-2017, 12:38 PM
Yeah loop hoses are a bit stretched must be that dock off BOV. I am trying to find out what length to order new, but had no joy with forums or Kim at KISS yet, going to speak to Danny Wright and N90 on Monday.

22" is standard, but I think you could order shorter (19"?) hoses if you wanted.

Janos

Barrygoss
23-09-2017, 12:55 PM
Thanks NDY, is there a good source for the spanners, gauge and flow meter? It seems to be mainly US sites that I am finding?

www.tecme.de
Martin is sound and if you order on a weekend and pay via paypal, the stuff normally turns up by Wednesday - he's also good for sensors

B

notdeadyet
23-09-2017, 01:32 PM
Thanks NDY, is there a good source for the spanners, gauge and flow meter? It seems to be mainly US sites that I am finding?You can buy from Dwyer direct. I paid around 30 quid plus vat 10 years ago. You'll only ever use it a couple of times. Once you get it set right, turn off the oxygen and time how long it takes to drop 50 bar on the spg. You can then use this for field checking the flow rate without tools or disassembly.

Loads of online tool sellers sell the spanners. Sometimes called pin or peg spanners. I think narkedat90 might sell them too. Worth getting two as sometimes the rings on the first stage can get locked together if you aren't careful.



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Dave1w
23-09-2017, 04:03 PM
22" is standard, but I think you could order shorter (19"?) hoses if you wanted.

Janos

The new hoses they have I think area more flexible, and start at 17 inch but have lots of stretch. People seem to be happy with them.

Cheers
Dave


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