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View Full Version : What's the going rate for a 2nd hand JJ



Zero-Viz
08-02-2013, 09:03 PM
Ive been offfered one, non CE for 5750, seems a bit on the steep side to me?

Cheers

Nick

Barrygoss
08-02-2013, 09:24 PM
Bite his hand off at the ankle ;)
CE or not they are v saleable
B

paulnlowry
08-02-2013, 09:28 PM
Thats a hell of a bargain, i would have been interested but already committed on buying a new one

Ken Hawk
08-02-2013, 10:04 PM
...

SoggyBottoms
08-02-2013, 10:06 PM
It's a difficult question to answer
The JJ is a very good bereaver, possibly the best one for general uk diving and definitely the best RB for travel.
non CE prices were a lot lower than current; but there is little significant difference between them except the non CE usually had a bov, and the JJ bov is pretty good.
Dependent on condition and the maintenance regime of the current owner it could be worth that


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notdeadyet
08-02-2013, 10:08 PM
Does it come with a free giant TV for that?

Jeez... the price of delrin must have rocketed...

paulnlowry
08-02-2013, 10:19 PM
New ones are coming out at 6690 eur ex vat, however there are a few extras that push the price up.

Soggy
08-02-2013, 10:20 PM
Does it come with a free giant TV for that?

Jeez... the price of delrin must have rocketed...

You could buy a Kiss and do your mod1 in Truk for that money ;)

SoggyBottoms
08-02-2013, 10:20 PM
NDY, lol try and buy your RB these days.

last time I enquired, if you recall, it was looking close to 10k inc import taxes and a hammerhead.

but you are right, RB's are way overpriced. but then we know who forced the manu's to go all legal and pushed the prices up


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notdeadyet
08-02-2013, 10:27 PM
NDY, lol try and buy your RB these days.

last time I enquired, if you recall, it was looking close to 10k inc import taxes and a hammerhead.

but you are right, RB's are way overpriced. but then we know who forced the manu's to go all legal and pushed the prices up


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I know, crazy prices. I'm glad I bought mine when I did. Good old Gina G and Archie the Inventor, they've left a lasting legacy.

I'm surprised there's a market for second hand rebreathers (or twinsets for that matter) with Inspos selling for what they do. You could just bung a travel frame and a BMCL on it and still have enough change left to actually dive the fooker.

gobfish1
08-02-2013, 10:28 PM
id need to know the number of times the said unit had been in the washing machine be4 i parted with my 2k lol

i was reading about a guy that just did 3 years on a push bike 28k miles and he only spent 2.5k

Ken Hawk
08-02-2013, 10:29 PM
...

Barrygoss
08-02-2013, 10:30 PM
NDY what have you got?

Gods rebreather ;)


B

gobfish1
08-02-2013, 10:38 PM
NDY what have you got?

the clap and a shagged out old tractor tyre that someone sold him the poor ☺☺☺☺☺ still thinks its a breather ,, lol

SoggyBottoms
08-02-2013, 10:40 PM
the clap and a shagged out out tractor tyre that some sold him the poor ☺☺☺☺☺ still thinks its a breather ,, lol

fookin big lol


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JPTaylor
09-02-2013, 10:14 AM
RB's are way overpriced. but then we know who forced the manu's to go all legal and pushed the prices up

Don't think Inspo prices have changed significantly (if at all) over the last 10yrs, been around 5,500 forever.

So, 2nd hand JJ costs more than a brand new Inspo!!

SoggyBottoms
09-02-2013, 10:28 AM
That discussion should really be the start of another thread


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Nitnab Nhoj
09-02-2013, 11:00 AM
On the subject of price (around 5900 for a Poseidon or APD Rec) do you think that new divers will grab the chance to buy recreational rebreathers? ie Is the recreational rebreather market about to boom as PADI hopes?

Soggy
09-02-2013, 11:04 AM
On the subject of price (around 5900 for a Poseidon or APD Rec) do you think that new divers will grab the chance to buy recreational rebreathers? ie Is the recreational rebreather market about to boom as PADI hopes?

No.

nickb
09-02-2013, 11:10 AM
On the subject of price (around 5900 for a Poseidon or APD Rec) do you think that new divers will grab the chance to buy recreational rebreathers? ie Is the recreational rebreather market about to boom as PADI hopes?Why would anyone buy something with inherent limitations when they can buy something such as an Inspo/Evo for the same money that will do all the diving they are ever likely to want to do?

nickb
09-02-2013, 11:13 AM
Ive been offfered one, non CE for 5750, seems a bit on the steep side to me?What's included? They were sold in various packages.

Frappawotsit
09-02-2013, 11:41 AM
On the subject of price (around 5900 for a Poseidon or APD Rec) do you think that new divers will grab the chance to buy recreational rebreathers? ie Is the recreational rebreather market about to boom as PADI hopes?

I (clearly) know nothing about rebreathers at all, but would assume that the price of the Rec level RB's is related to the "convenience". As I said, technically, i know sod all about the units, but from a marketing perspective, i'm led to understand that the Rec units concept is that they are as close to "fool proof" as one can get, making them very nearly a Boot it up, Pre-breath, strap it on and go type unit. This is vs the much more technical jiggery pokery of the full tech RB units that contain a lot more manual control.

The point being, price wise... the rec units cost is driven by convenience of a strap on and go type RB... and as we all know, convenience costs!

Do i think there is a valid sustainable market for them at a recreational level..... errrr no.

It's widely known already that "new divers" are already baulking at a 380 OC Open Water course..... so why are the vast majority going to then pay for an RB course to do the same diving they were going to do on OC, but have to spend another 5k for an RB instead of the much cheaper OC options.

By the time a diver fully understands and desires the benefits that come with a RB.... it's likely to be because they are wanting to push deeper/longer etc and are therefore going to be looking at the fully technical units in the vast majority of cases.

Just my 2p

gordyp
09-02-2013, 12:04 PM
Why would anyone buy something with inherent limitations when they can buy something such as an Inspo/Evo for the same money that will do all the diving they are ever likely to want to do?

Because their local dive shop tells them it's the thing to do.

When I first started I bought all Scubapro kit for the same reason, was told 'its the best'. As a newbie you won't necessarily know better.

I would think that given the economics of the time, that there are considerably less folk around who can afford to splash out 6 grand for toys and training.

Nitnab Nhoj
09-02-2013, 01:00 PM
Just a small note: The APD Rec units (Evolution, Evolution+, Inspiration) have ADV, BOV, temp.stick, gradient set-point switching and auto-activate and can be upgraded by software update to full dec-nitrox/trimix for very little extra but it's still a lot of money for a new diver IMHO.

JPTaylor
09-02-2013, 01:31 PM
Just a small note: The APD Rec units (Evolution, Evolution+, Inspiration) have ADV, BOV, temp.stick, gradient set-point switching and auto-activate and can be upgraded by software update to full dec-nitrox/trimix for very little extra but it's still a lot of money for a new diver IMHO.

Don't see why anyone would want to buy the Rec unit rather than the regular unit; ignorance & PADI instructor guidance I guess!! Just go for a JJ, Inspo or what ever takes your fancy and get non-PADI training

Zero-Viz
09-02-2013, 04:06 PM
What's included? They were sold in various packages.

Hi Nick

Just noticed this post amongst all the other non OP related stuff. Not too sure tbh. I'm going to take a look next week.

Cheers

Nick

Hot Totty
09-02-2013, 04:10 PM
Marketing - create the desire and the market will follow, probably not in the uk though :shake:

dwhitlow
09-02-2013, 06:12 PM
New ones are coming out at 6690 eur ex vat, however there are a few extras that push the price up.
wow! you could get a second hand inspo, training, a week in scapa and still have change! :grin:

nickb
09-02-2013, 06:16 PM
wow! you could get a second hand inspo, training, a week in scapa and still have change! :grin:Twice!

dwhitlow
09-02-2013, 06:20 PM
Twice!and still be able to swap to BMCL if you don't like the clutter and then buy a second-hand ostc2n as backup ;).

paulnlowry
09-02-2013, 10:15 PM
Cheers Nick and Dave, large capital investment, however part of my old employers payoff is defraying the cost.

SoggyBottoms
09-02-2013, 10:38 PM
and still be able to swap to BMCL if you don't like the clutter and then buy a second-hand ostc2n as backup ;).

and that still wouldn't measure up to a JJ. you'd still just have a bunch of half arsed bits rather than a system.
but what do I know - I've only got both


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Mark Chase
10-02-2013, 08:59 AM
and that still wouldn't measure up to a JJ. you'd still just have a bunch of half arsed bits rather than a system.
but what do I know - I've only got both


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Me too and i agree but i still feel the JJ should cost arround 5k max all in. But lets face it hes not strugling to sell them so perhaps hes got the pricing right.

I think a lot of the cost is the Shearwater controler and HUD. Again something I felt was very expensive.

ATB

Mark

Paulo
10-02-2013, 09:23 AM
Me too and i agree but i still feel the JJ should cost arround 5k max all in. But lets face3 it hes noty strugling to sell them so perhaps hes got the pricing right.

I think a lot of the cost is the Shearwater controler and HUD. Again something I felt was very expensive.

ATB

Mark

If you were going again, oh dive god, what breather would you get?

Most of the people I dive with that do some really deep diving(100-165m) do it on Visions because that what was good 6 or 7 years ago. 1 guy has a sentinel and one lad that just bought a new machine last autumn got a JJ.

notdeadyet
10-02-2013, 09:26 AM
Marketing - create the desire and the market will follow, probably not in the uk though :shake:

I can remember at least three other recreational rebreather schemes that were going to change the way we were going to dive globally. They've all involved fairly clever technology (far more clever than mainstream rebreathers that actually sell) and they've been dying on their arses for the last 20 years.

Building a product then inventing the market is a hell of a lot harder than doing it the other way round (and a good way to watch a big pile of money become a big pile of debt). How are Poseidon doing financially these days?

Apeks had two prototype rebreathers in a reasonable state of development when Aqualung (probably diving's biggest marketing machine) bought them over. One of the first things they did was can the project.

It's not for nothing that most rebreathers start out in little niche workshops.

Mark Chase
10-02-2013, 11:49 AM
If you were going again, oh dive god, what breather would you get?

Most of the people I dive with that do some really deep diving(100-165m) do it on Visions because that what was good 6 or 7 years ago. 1 guy has a sentinel and one lad that just bought a new machine last autumn got a JJ.



Yay... recognition at last :D


100 -165m? Dosen't the Vision buzzer implode at arround 160m?

Never been past 120m my self and of the handfull of 100m+ dives were on an Inspo classic with a VR3 (two actualy) and one was on OC So probably not the best person to ask. I like the JJ very much and with a decent BOV and replacement of the silly springs on the loop hoses its a very good unit. It can offer a radial scruber for the longer deco dives those depths will require and the unit is very reliable.

I always fancied a Mk15.5 for deep diving but i havent dived one my self so perhaps thats just rose tinted glases. The Borris looks like it should do the deep stuff well but I am concerned over reliabuility.

On a budget? id go Inspo Vision

Money no object? a JJ with Radial scrubber

ATB

Mark

Zero-Viz
10-02-2013, 03:30 PM
I've decided against this one. if anyone is looking for a 2nd hand unit I know where there's one going so pm me and I can put you in touch.

dlk
11-02-2013, 03:35 PM
Don't see why anyone would want to buy the Rec unit rather than the regular unit; ignorance & PADI instructor guidance I guess!! Just go for a JJ, Inspo or what ever takes your fancy and get non-PADI training

So is the PADI recreational CCR training curriculum significantly different to the IANTD, TDI and soon SSI recreational CCR course?
How about the PADI tech CCR training curriculum?

JPTaylor
11-02-2013, 09:25 PM
So is the PADI recreational CCR training curriculum significantly different to the IANTD, TDI and soon SSI recreational CCR course?
How about the PADI tech CCR training curriculum?

Yes it is, PADI Rec don't teach manual addition of gases & Rec units like APD's have the manual add valves blanked off.

TxNinja
11-02-2013, 10:04 PM
Padi tec courses and materials are very good and very thorough. Look at the consultants on the programme, it's a who's who of ccr technical diving.

As always its the instructor. I did IART / IANTD. I've recently reviewed the PADI CCR tec 100 course, it's excellent. Get the right instructor - forget the agency.

oakridge4
12-02-2013, 12:35 AM
If you were going again, oh dive god, what breather would you get?

Most of the people I dive with that do some really deep diving(100-165m) do it on Visions because that what was good 6 or 7 years ago. 1 guy has a sentinel and one lad that just bought a new machine last autumn got a JJ.

Paulo dont forget the rEvo Rez was diving as one of the group that dived it to the Empress 165mts ( have to back up my choice or Simon TW would have words with me :rofl:

oakridge4
12-02-2013, 12:36 AM
duplicate post

Simon TW
12-02-2013, 05:11 AM
NDY, lol try and buy your RB these days.

last time I enquired, if you recall, it was looking close to 10k inc import taxes and a hammerhead.

but you are right, RB's are way overpriced. but then we know who forced the manu's to go all legal and pushed the prices up


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I could put you in touch with a guy selling one. He's just gone over to a rEvo and he mentioned selling it. 15.5 with HH and plenty of spares.

trebor
12-02-2013, 10:34 AM
I've decided against this one. if anyone is looking for a 2nd hand unit I know where there's one going so pm me and I can put you in touch.

Hi ya Nick

The JJ is a great unit why walk away from this one. I would defo look at JJs with the delrin base mod and with a BOV JJ.

Rob

Zero-Viz
12-02-2013, 10:56 AM
Hi ya Nick

The JJ is a great unit why walk away from this one. I would defo look at JJs with the delrin base mod and with a BOV JJ.

Rob

no doubting its a great unit but just a niggly feeling that its a litlte over priced and I'm in no rush as I still have my trusty sentinel.

dlk
12-02-2013, 05:14 PM
Yes it is, PADI Rec don't teach manual addition of gases & Rec units like APD's have the manual add valves blanked off.

How do other agencies teach manual add on a mk6?
Is manual add taught on other units on the IANTD recreational rebreather course? (The 4 day, 21m max entry level course, not MOD1.)

PADI rec rebreather is 18m, 4 days, 6 dives.
IANTD rec rebreather is 21m, 4 days, 5 dives.


Padi tec courses and materials are very good and very thorough. Look at the consultants on the programme, it's a who's who of ccr technical diving.

As always its the instructor. I did IART / IANTD. I've recently reviewed the PADI CCR tec 100 course, it's excellent. Get the right instructor - forget the agency.

I've looked at them too and agree. Great materials, very thorough. Which is why I'm puzzled and trying to better understand JPTaylor's position.

JPTaylor
13-02-2013, 08:33 AM
I've looked at them too and agree. Great materials, very thorough. Which is why I'm puzzled and trying to better understand JPTaylor's position.

Go straight to MOD 1, don't bother with a Rec ticket; can do Air diluent to 40m & maybe 15mins deco or not. They seem to have changed course since I did it & just added more steps!

Do see the point of been limited to 1/21m on a rebreather, no point just use OC at that depth. At 30m it becomes more interesting, can do a hour on the bottom with almost no deco.

nickb
13-02-2013, 10:24 AM
At 30m it becomes more interesting, can do a hour on the bottom with almost no deco.A twinset full of 36% and an Ali40 of O2 will have you out every bit as quick.

I'd sooner do it with a CCR full of 21/35(ish) though

notdeadyet
13-02-2013, 11:05 AM
Yes it is, PADI Rec don't teach manual addition of gases & Rec units like APD's have the manual add valves blanked off.

Really? If that's what their who's who of rebreather gurus came up with then they need a new set of gurus. Fook me that has to be the daftest idea yet.

Isn't that a bit like admitting that your target market isn't competent to dive a rebreather? Or that you can't trust your instructors to be competent to teach CCR?

It sounds like a good goat shagging in the making.

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notdeadyet
13-02-2013, 11:08 AM
I could put you in touch with a guy selling one. He's just gone over to a rEvo and he mentioned selling it. 15.5 with HH and plenty of spares.

How much if he bins the HH? :D

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Nitnab Nhoj
13-02-2013, 12:15 PM
Yes it is, PADI Rec don't teach manual addition of gases & Rec units like APD's have the manual add valves blanked off.

I believe you'll find it's only the manual Oxygen addition valve is blanked off. Manual diluent addition valve is there as normal. Rec unit has auto-switch on, BOV, temp.stick and recreational software (18m Rec1, 40m Rec2).

TxNinja
13-02-2013, 01:00 PM
Seem to be getting confused between PADI rec and PADI tec.

Nothing is blanked off or changed for tec stuff, even at ccr tec 40 (mod1), you def use man adds etc for both O2 and Dil. offboards cone in at ccr60 ( mod2) and ccr100 is full mod3 equivalent.

As for Rec the rec standards I think are common to all agencies based on nits, but I've never done any rec ccr.

Neil Brock
13-02-2013, 01:03 PM
You would have a job using the manual add dill on a Mk6, there aint one fitted, unless you include the ADV & your lungs :giggle:

TxNinja
13-02-2013, 01:06 PM
Not required for that unit though is it under rec standards only tec standards and a MK VI no use for that!

notdeadyet
13-02-2013, 01:41 PM
Lack of a manual add seems absolute madness. I suppose if you buy all the bollocks about how the unit will never go hypoxic (like the guy who went hypoxic on one of them did) then you could fool yourself into thinking not having MAVs is ok.

Just strikes me as lazy thinking. Manual addition is too complicated for our users... Great, just leave it off then...

The roll call of folk that have jossed it at the surface or <20m would seem to suggest that the reduction in capability of a unit should be proportionate to depth. I can't think of any bells or whistles I'd sacrifice for a 20m no deco dive on my box. I guess the gurus flogging these units and courses know better.

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Nitnab Nhoj
13-02-2013, 02:00 PM
The idea behind these rec units is that should anything go tits-up the diver switched to OC on the BOV and aborts the dive. We know in practice that if they see the red light they'll carry on diving if it's worth diving. The PADI Rec idea is that people should not try to operate it manually but abort. The weak point of the idea is in the processor that fits between the ears of the diver.

Price of a second-hand JJ? Whatever you are prepared to pay!

Nitnab Nhoj
13-02-2013, 02:01 PM
The idea behind these rec units is that should anything go tits-up the diver switches to OC on the BOV and aborts the dive. We know in practice that if they see the red light they'll carry on diving if it's worth diving. The PADI Rec idea is that people should not try to operate it manually but abort. The weak point of the idea is in the processor that fits between the ears of the diver.

Price of a second-hand JJ? Whatever you are prepared to pay!

Neil Brock
13-02-2013, 02:07 PM
Lack of a manual add seems absolute madness. I suppose if you buy all the bollocks about how the unit will never go hypoxic (like the guy who went hypoxic on one of them did) then you could fool yourself into thinking not having MAVs is ok.

Just strikes me as lazy thinking. Manual addition is too complicated for our users... Great, just leave it off then...

The roll call of folk that have jossed it at the surface or <20m would seem to suggest that the reduction in capability of a unit should be proportionate to depth. I can't think of any bells or whistles I'd sacrifice for a 20m no deco dive on my box. I guess the gurus flogging these units and courses know better.

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I for one, fully appreciate your view, but that's all it is, your views and opinions.
We are all different, we all have different veiws, opinions, values and of some importance, requirements.

I am struggling to find a manufacturer who is saying .......
Manual addition is too complicated for our users... what they seem to be saying to me is that for the use intended, there is no requirement, or, it will be done automatically.

I in know way consider myself an expert in RB's but I do put some considerable stock in the thought that if Martin Parker thinks its OK, or Richard Pyle thinks its OK, and lets be honest, even if you don't like AP's products, clearly a lot of folks do cause they out sell every other RB by a substantial factor, then they will in theory, be reasonably safe !

You mentioned someone who's unit went hypoxic, people have been fished out having unfortunately not turned cylinders on even, but no one's advocating electronic pillar valves ? Some rely on 2 cells, some on 3, some, on 5 or more, no ones right or wrong, they have their beliefs and that's surely their prerogative. :handshake:

Nitnab Nhoj
13-02-2013, 02:27 PM
Bearing in mind that with the APD units only the manual addition of oxygen is precluded on Rec models (and can be added later if required) and that it is to meet the PADI criteria so that no user can overdose on O2 in error.

(As a matter of interest, I recently did a dive trip with an Evolution+ in Rec2 mode. I found I never needed to use the manual dil addition valve because I could even do a diluent flush by going head-down, heaving on the ADV and simultaneously pulling the dump on the back-mounted counterlungs.)

notdeadyet
13-02-2013, 03:39 PM
Ok they may not be saying MAVs are too complicated but they do seem to be saying that shallow diving merits simpler units. That's just not been my experience, apart from a number on a computer not much else changes from a 20m dive to a 70m dive on a box. They fail the same way. CCR is a great leveller.

Maybe I'm a cynic but there's a shitload of money to be made flogging snake oil to rubes at the county show when it comes to recreational CCR. Views and opinions of those who benefit in my mind are accompanied by a pinch of salt regardless of who they are. Rich Pyle is probably the most experienced deep CCR diver on the planet and much as I respect him I'm not sure how that translates to designing programmes and units for tourists.

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Nitnab Nhoj
13-02-2013, 03:55 PM
Ok they may not be saying MAVs are too complicated but they do seem to be saying that shallow diving merits simpler units. That's just not been my experience, apart from a number on a computer not much else changes from a 20m dive to a 70m dive on a box. They fail the same way. CCR is a great leveller.

Maybe I'm a cynic but there's a shitload of money to be made flogging snake oil to rubes at the county show when it comes to recreational CCR. Views and opinions of those who benefit in my mind are accompanied by a pinch of salt regardless of who they are. Rich Pyle is probably the most experienced deep CCR diver on the planet and much as I respect him I'm not sure how that translates to designing programmes and units for tourists.

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The folks at Draeger did their research back in the early '90s and determined that there were far more recreational divers than technical divers therefore they aimed their Atlantis/Dolphin rebreather at at recreational divers. Poseidon has done the same. APD has cleverly deduced that even a recreational diver will eventually want to use their Rec CCR for deeper diving so they have made Rec versions of their standard models, which can be upgraded at little cost later.
We will have to wait to see if the PADI recreational rebreather initiative results in thousands of recreational rebreather divers buying Rec type units. In the meantime, a JJ is a very good unit if you can lay your hands on one.

Nitnab Nhoj
13-02-2013, 03:55 PM
Ok they may not be saying MAVs are too complicated but they do seem to be saying that shallow diving merits simpler units. That's just not been my experience, apart from a number on a computer not much else changes from a 20m dive to a 70m dive on a box. They fail the same way. CCR is a great leveller.

Maybe I'm a cynic but there's a shitload of money to be made flogging snake oil to rubes at the county show when it comes to recreational CCR. Views and opinions of those who benefit in my mind are accompanied by a pinch of salt regardless of who they are. Rich Pyle is probably the most experienced deep CCR diver on the planet and much as I respect him I'm not sure how that translates to designing programmes and units for tourists.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

The folks at Draeger did their research back in the early '90s and determined that there were far more recreational divers than technical divers therefore they aimed their Atlantis/Dolphin rebreather at at recreational divers. Poseidon has done the same. APD has cleverly deduced that even a recreational diver will eventually want to use their Rec CCR for deeper diving so they have made Rec versions of their standard models, which can be upgraded at little cost later.
We will have to wait to see if the PADI recreational rebreather initiative results in thousands of recreational rebreather divers buying Rec type units. In the meantime, a JJ is a very good unit if you can lay your hands on one.

notdeadyet
13-02-2013, 05:03 PM
The folks at Draeger did their research back in the early '90s and determined that there were far more recreational divers than technical divers therefore they aimed their Atlantis/Dolphin rebreather at at recreational divers. Poseidon has done the same. APD has cleverly deduced that even a recreational diver will eventually want to use their Rec CCR for deeper diving so they have made Rec versions of their standard models, which can be upgraded at little cost later.
We will have to wait to see if the PADI recreational rebreather initiative results in thousands of recreational rebreather divers buying Rec type units. In the meantime, a JJ is a very good unit if you can lay your hands on one.

And despite all that, ultimately Draeger also decided that the recreational market was more hassle than it's worth.

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Neil Brock
13-02-2013, 05:20 PM
Ok they may not be saying MAVs are too complicated but they do seem to be saying that shallow diving merits simpler units. That's just not been my experience, apart from a number on a computer not much else changes from a 20m dive to a 70m dive on a box. They fail the same way. CCR is a great leveller.

Maybe I'm a cynic but there's a shitload of money to be made flogging snake oil to rubes at the county show when it comes to recreational CCR. Views and opinions of those who benefit in my mind are accompanied by a pinch of salt regardless of who they are. Rich Pyle is probably the most experienced deep CCR diver on the planet and much as I respect him I'm not sure how that translates to designing programmes and units for tourists.

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They may fail in similar ways, and maybe CCR can be a great leveler in some respects, but the task loading at 70msw, and 20msw, when the poo hits the spinning thing is I am sure you will agree, totally different, requiring totaly different skills and functional ability !

I am not saying the units are simpler because they are to be used shallower, far from it. The units are more automated, (which means i presume more squiggly shit in them) requiring a lesser level of user skill, for the depth they are intended to be used at.
I am struggling to see why a diver capable of using nitrox to 40msw with a computer should struggle any more with say a Poseidon. Should a Mk6 end up with a hypoxic loop, 4 alarms go off, you bail out. The same diver on O/C takes his nitrox deeper than the setting on his Suunto/UWATEC/VR, the alarms go off, go do something about it.
Whats hard about that ?

And for what its worth, I don't think there is shitloads of money to be made, I will be (pleasantly) surprised if Posiedon make it pay off at all. This "lets revolnsionize rebreather diving for the masses" has been tried before, many times, and by bigger players, and to date no one has come up with a business model that seems to work. I, like many others, reckon it hinges around pricing ?

I don't know, cause I ain't privy to the facts but I don't imagine Richard Pyle, designs programs or, units at all !
I suspect he is paid to tell designers what might be good features and functions for the market its aimed at, and they go away and design. He simply acts in an advisory capacity.

Think back to when Clasics first came out, a unit that had no computer, no temp stick, no HUD, and no BOV, but did some spectacular diving, it was a collaboration between Dave Thompson and Applied Pressure, one designs in his shed, one produces in his factory.

notdeadyet
13-02-2013, 07:18 PM
If there was no money to be made PADI wouldnt be involved.

Will it be successful is another story.

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Neil Brock
13-02-2013, 09:29 PM
PADI don't have the development and tooling costs. They bang out manuals. The customer and the instructor pay for the lot, that's business.
PADI are simply retraining their existing customer base cause it's easier than finding new. Much the same as they are with side mount diving, DSMB courses, and analyser courses !

PADI would fuck a frog if it stopped hoping long enough :angel:

TxNinja
13-02-2013, 10:03 PM
PADI don't have the development and tooling costs. They bang out manuals. The customer and the instructor pay for the lot, that's business.
PADI are simply retraining their existing customer base cause it's easier than finding new. Much the same as they are with side mount diving, DSMB courses, and analyser courses !

PADI would fuck a frog if it stopped hoping long enough :angel:

So which out of any of the other agencies have development and tooling costs?

Neil Brock
13-02-2013, 10:31 PM
None as far as I can see ? Likewise I cannot see them making what was the expression used, "a shitload of money".

If Poseidon for arguments sake sells a thousand units in say two years, and the training agencies, say PADI, TDI and let's say PSAI, sells a manual and cert card for each at approx. 50 per customer, TDI will turnover there or thereabouts 8,500 ish.
Hardly shitpiles of money when you put in perspective.
If you want to be generous add in the turnover for 20 or 30 instructors ?, we're still not talking about retiring any time soon !

It would appear that the biggest gains or, losses will be made, or taken, by the manufacturers in terms of succes or failure of the rebreathers for the masses, and at the moment, I would suggest it ain't looking that rosy.

notdeadyet
13-02-2013, 10:47 PM
"Type R" rebreathers didn't exist until the marketing machine thought of it. It's not a bad idea, PADI gets a pyramid of fees while all the risk sits on the manufacturers. Poesidon were dead without a new product to save them, Martin Parker isn't running either a charity or a casino. No potential for making money? Yeah right. The world of rebreathers is filled with philanthropists.

Neil Brock
14-02-2013, 08:12 AM
It's called a "cottage" industry, and there is a big difference between "a shitload" of money, and "potential for making money".
What would you prefer, your wages next week, or the potential to get your wages next week !

notdeadyet
14-02-2013, 09:14 AM
What would you prefer, your wages next week, or the potential to get your wages next week !

Depends how much risk and reward there is. Risk equals money and if the money isn't there then no-one takes the risk. Martin Parker and PADI's shareholders aren't financial idiots. If the payback wasn't worth it he wouldn't be risking any cash. And considering the litiginous nature of the group Type R rebreathers are pitched at I'd imagine any beancounter would be expecting a decent return. Both Draeger and Aqualung couldn't stomach it so I very much doubt the potential payback is akin to selling eggs at the farm gate. For that kind of risk someone is rubbing their hands together.


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Neil Brock
14-02-2013, 11:08 AM
I bet Draeger's shareholders said that when they bought out the Dolphin, then the Ray, and so did OMG with the Azimuth, and CIS, Biomarine, and many many others !


Risk equals money and if the money isn't there then no-one takes the risk ???

Your view of risk and my view of risk obviously differ !
You yourself said in post 35....


I can remember at least three other recreational rebreather schemes that were going to change the way we were going to dive globally. They've all involved fairly clever technology (far more clever than mainstream rebreathers that actually sell) and they've been dying on their arses for the last 20 years.

Building a product then inventing the market is a hell of a lot harder than doing it the other way round (and a ). How are Poseidon doing financially these days?

So it's kind of make your mind up time, do you think they are making a "shitload of money" or "good way to watch a big pile of money become a big pile of debt" you cant really have it both ways ?

Neil Brock
14-02-2013, 11:17 AM
Oh, and for what it's worth re litigation and the customer base, in my little world, the only incident that affects me and mine seems to have emanated from a few years back, before type R customers were even invented, and ended up with Teledyne pulling out of the market !

notdeadyet
14-02-2013, 11:52 AM
I bet Draeger's shareholders said that when they bought out the Dolphin, then the Ray, and so did OMG with the Azimuth, and CIS, Biomarine, and many many others !

The Draegers made a lot of money for them, particularly as the Dolphin/Atlantis was just a re-rigging of existing production units. It was all profit. In the end the risk was more than they could stomach. OMG similarly pulled out of the sport market. Biomarine hasn't existed for what? 25 years? Tbere wasn't a market for even nitrox then. Apart from a brief failed foray with a handful of oxygen units Biomarine never sold to the sport market at all (probably because it didn't exist) and Carleton didn't either. The various variants were sold through people who had either acquired them via surplus sales, "other means" or like Colkan who bought a ton of spares and built "new" units from them. All the companies you mention didn't need the recreational market and either never touched it or got out.

Fair enough, if APD are making rec units out of philanthropy, PADI are investing in infrastructure for a laugh and Poseidon isn't trying to fuel interest in an overpriced and underperforming unit to get the company off its arse then maybe you're right about no money in it.

Of course there is money in it if it gets marketed well. Plenty have tried and failed, not getting it right doesn't mean the money isn't there. It just means a lot of people misread the market. This is another attempt.


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Neil Brock
14-02-2013, 12:43 PM
Your the only one using the word
philanthropy ? I would suggest a more appropriate word is "gamble" ?

Do you have any reference that confirms that Draeger pulled out because of risk ? I suspect not, that it's just your theory ?

Talk to people who worked on, or were involved in these projects, Draeger pulled out because the market is piddley, not easy to sustain, and not worth the effort compared with their military, pharmaceutical and other industries that they can plow the same money into with much greater returns. As I said, this is a cottage industry that the big players are just not interested in.
Probably more profit in neoprene goods or fin's !

Draeger Dolphin Sir ?, that will be 1,500
Draerger LAR Sir ?, that will be

You have still not decided which of your statement's is correct.....

1."Maybe I'm a cynic but there's a shitload of money to be made flogging snake oil to rubes at the county show when it comes to recreational CCR"
or
"good way to watch a big pile of money become a big pile of debt"

as I said, you cant have it both ways ?

notdeadyet
14-02-2013, 01:56 PM
Why not? It's a difficult market that a lot of companies have foundered on. So a good way to rack up debt. Get it right and you'll have rubes queuing out the door for their next 20m experience dive. So also a good way to make a load of money.

Diving must be the only industry full of business owners saying there's no money to be made. I guess PADI et al are in it because they love breaking even? I know, they are there to look out for us divers' best interest...

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Neil Brock
14-02-2013, 02:22 PM
Why not? It's a difficult market that a lot of companies have foundered on. So a good way to rack up debt. Get it right and you'll have rubes queuing out the door for their next 20m experience dive. So also a good way to make a load of money.

Diving must be the only industry full of business owners saying there's no money to be made. I guess PADI et al are in it because they love breaking even? I know, they are there to look out for us divers' best interest...

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Again there you go with sweeping generalizations, saying "the only industry full of business owners saying there is no money to be made" !
I am quite happy, and making money and show me where I have said otherwise ?
I am not privy, but I bet Martin Parker is making money, but i suspect there is not a big enough cake for everyone to have a decent slice of the rebreather market.
And that I am afraid might prove to be a reality, rather than yours or mine views.

In fact your the one that said in post 35

and a good way to watch a big pile of money become a big pile of debt


Get it right and you'll have rubes queuing out the door for their next 20m experience dive. So also a good way to make a load of money.

So let me get this right, you think that a manufacturer, lets say Posiedon, design, tool up, develop, and sell on the units and you think that same company will make loads of money from

Get it right and you'll have rubes queuing out the door for their next 20m experience dive. So also a good way to make a load of money.

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, your having a laugh. Care to show one company that has done just that, and made a load of money from 20m experience dives, just one ?

notdeadyet
14-02-2013, 06:33 PM
PADI has done well out the tourist diver for one company. If Poseidon are going to that effort and not expecting to make money then it's no surprise the company was on its arse.

Anyway, I've no idea what an overpriced underperforming rebreather has got to do with a thread about an expensive but very good rebreather so that's it for me.

If nothing else I've learned that profit isn't the reason diving businesses exist.

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Neil Brock
15-02-2013, 09:17 AM
Fair enough, we are both grown up chaps and can agree to differ :handshake:

And 5.5K depending on spec, and condition ?

Nitnab Nhoj
15-02-2013, 01:09 PM
CCR production has to stay in the hands of small producers because it is impossible to get product liability insurance. Big corporations like AquaLung (owned by AireLiquide) and Scubapro/Uwatec owned by (Johnsons Outdoors) cannot take the risk. I know that APD has successfully defended every lawsuit so far but I think you'll find that this is the case.

TxNinja
15-02-2013, 09:17 PM
Not sure that's the case, I've looked at this commercially, albeit briefly. It's more likely that the volumes versus setup, access to market etc just aren't worth a bigger company getting involved for the Return on Investment. It's a shame in one way as if volumes were there unit costs could come down substantially. However we'd lose the uniqueness and innovation.

dlk
19-02-2013, 05:36 PM
...

Baron015
21-02-2013, 01:22 PM
We know in practice that if they see the red light they'll carry on diving if it's worth diving.

These people are fricking idiots and shouldn't be on any rebreather R or T.

Meanwhile, Nick D, you will love your JJ. Hurry up and get one !! Bring it on the France trip !!!

TB.

Zero-Viz
21-02-2013, 02:57 PM
These people are fricking idiots and shouldn't be on any rebreather R or T.

Meanwhile, Nick D, you will love your JJ. Hurry up and get one !! Bring it on the France trip !!!

TB.

TBH, I was toying with it but Ive got the Sentinel set up a dream so am reluctant to let it go - seeing as I literally know it inside out by now. If I get an offer I'll weigh it but Im not in a rush. Dont worry, France will be awesome.

Zero-Viz
21-02-2013, 02:57 PM
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