Potentially stupid question

[ootini]

Hi, I'm still reading bits of guff here and there on various CCRs and I've recently been reading a few bits about the new Poseidon MKVI. I noticed this on the website :


Poseidon’s MKVI has 5 big advantages over traditional open circuit equipment: 3 hours typical dive time, Safer and easier to use, Lighter and smaller, No decompressions stops and Silent operation makes you part of the environment; not just a visitor.
The MKVI, the first true technological breakthrough in decades, is a game*changer.

Exactly what do they mean by "No decompressions stops". I get the idea that by keeping the PPO2 as high as possible they increase the time at depth before stops are mandatory, but does this mean the unit is not designed for deco diving? I apologise if I've missed something completely but it seems odd to design a CCR for ndl diving only.

[Hot Totty]

Yup type R - recreational ie no deco ;)

[ootini]

Yup type R - recreational ie no deco ;)

Hmmmmmm I was under the impression it was R-ish, as in it took away some of the comlications of more "techie" CCRs but would still allow for "proper diving" if you wanted too, hence the Trimix battery option? Non?

[ootini]

Well fcuk my old boots, from the manual :

In the lower center of the Alarm Signal Area is
the Decompression Ceiling Alert. This symbol
will flash when the diver has incurred a decompression obligation. The Poseidon MKVI is not
intended for decompression diving, so the dive
should be terminated whenever this icon is displayed. The diver should ascend towards the
surface at a slow and controlled rate, watching
the Primary Display for the Stop Alert and additional decompression information (see below)

What's the bloody point in that then?

Poseidon crossed off the list I believe.

[GLOC]

Dave, depends on what you want the CCR for. Recreational CCR are not for what people traditionally consider CCRs are for. E.g. Deep, long dives, but rather warm gas, no bubbles, long NDLs in shallow depths where gas might be the limiting factor for OC.

Regards

[Woz]

The techie version is on its way shortly.

[ootini]

Dave, depends on what you want the CCR for. Recreational CCR are not for what people traditionally consider CCRs are for. E.g. Deep, long dives, but rather warm gas, no bubbles, long NDLs in shallow depths where gas might be the limiting factor for OC.

Regards

I get what you mean Gloc, but seems to me that "allowing" the unit to go into Deco would have a been a wise move on Poseidons part. By simply "nerfing" the whole unit not to allow decompression at all seems quite restrictive.

[GLOC]

Again, depends on who your user is. To go into deco means you have to have redundancy, easy way out is to say 'No deco'. Depending on depth, majority of people will get bored before hitting NDLs as recreational divers.

They have deco versions with the blue battery as alluded earlier.

Regards

[ootini]

Again, depends on who your user is. To go into deco means you have to have redundancy, easy way out is to say 'No deco'. Depending on depth, majority of people will get bored before hitting NDLs as recreational divers.

They have deco versions with the blue battery as alluded earlier.

Regards

So simply by switching the battery out the unit goes from Rec to Tech? And the electronics now allow proper decompression etc?

[GLOC]

Yes

[ootini]

Yes

Just found this on their site : Battery Deco Upgrade | Poseidon (http://www.poseidon.com/products/rebreathers/battery-deco-upgrade)

48M still seems to be an unnecessary restriction, especially as the battery allows the use of Trimix. And it costs €350!!!!!

[GLOC]

Once below 48m you should be using more capable hardware, and this is what Poseidon have proposed with their Tech CCR which is based on the R but has more redundancy.

Regards

[Mark Chase]

Well fcuk my old boots, from the manual :


What's the bloody point in that then?

Poseidon crossed off the list I believe.

Nice compact lightweight macheen but to intrusive and too limiting IMHO.

Far better units out there. (KISS JJ rEVo)

ATB

Mark

[GLOC]

http://www.poseidon.com/pressreleases/failsafe-diving-new-tech-rebreather

[The Duck]

Also the Poseidon uses the prepacked scrubber cartidges which cost a lot more than loose granulate (off the top of my head I think it is around £20+ per cartridge as opposed to around £8/fill (ish) for a loose pack (for example in an inspo)).

Not sure if you can get a bucket and pack your own - but even if you can that will add on another few pennies.

As mentioned this is off the top of my head so I may be out of date or just wrong - I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.

[ootini]

Yeah having read the bumf it seems that the whole thing is just too restrictive which is a shame as the automation and size was at first, very appealing. 18KG ready to dive is *I think* about the lightest unit available.

[SoggyBottoms]

It's a lovely little unit and more useful than the blurbs say


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[ootini]

It's a lovely little unit and more useful than the blurbs say


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It's tempting because of the size and weight I must admit, but the limitations of the batteries is a bit annoying. Having said that, if the "Red" battery (60m) is ever released then that would probably suit most of my needs, having said that as soon as I had a disco with red battery I'd find some reason to want to get 61+ as is sod's law. Le Polynesien in Malta for example.

[Woz]

I think Jack Ingle has been playing with the trimix one. Although he does sound like granddad from Only Fools and Horses. "During the war..."

[ootini]

I think Jack Ingle has been playing with the trimix one. Although he does sound like granddad from Only Fools and Horses. "During the war..."

That would be Uncle Albert then?

[Woz]

That would be Uncle Albert then?

That's the bugger. I'm not a huge OFAH fan. There's only one funny bit where he falls through the bar hatch. A bit like Dad's Army. They only had 2 jokes: "don't tell them your name, Pike" and Mr Mainwaring falling over then getting up with his glasses all cunty-booby*






* not quite straight. It's an engineering term.

[ootini]

I'm also thinking that a full e(r)CCR with such a level of automation would basically mean I would end up skipping a lot of training, practice and skill building that I would pick up with an mCCR, like a KISS or rEvo, does that make sense?

[SoggyBottoms]

yep, true. the Pos6 doesn't let the diver have much input or control.
JIngle is doing the deep tickets over in Malta according to my mate wots got one


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[ootini]

yep, true. the Pos6 doesn't let the diver have much input or control.
JIngle is doing the deep tickets over in Malta according to my mate wots got one


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On the red batteries?

[Cheeky Monkey]

That's the bugger. I'm not a huge OFAH fan. There's only one funny bit where he falls through the bar hatch..

there are 2 - you forgot the chandelier

[SoggyBottoms]

On the red batteries?

I think he's gonna use the blue
IIRC he said they can be unlocked to allow down to 100mtrs - after you've done your 100 hours and the course


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[Neil Brock]

Hi Ootini,

For what it's worth, in my opinion the manual is not particularly user friendly, but for your queery, the info required is there.....
pasted from the current manual


Appendix 2 - Deco 40 / Deco Trimix 48
Introduction .................................................. .................................................. ....79
Setting up decompression configured MkVI .................................................. .......79
Decompression permitted .................................................. ..........................79
Decompression enabled........................................... ....................................80
40m Deco Version........................................... .............................................80


One of the issues with the Mk6, and like any rebreather, it does have issue's, is that it's evolving (slowly) so the manuals need to be read in conjunction with the latest firmware and software updates.
Sometimes though, the slow evolution process allows users to build their skills and time in the water, I am sure we all know people who would skip the initial training and insist on say a 60m battery cause they are trimix qualified ?
Likewise, I saw someone swimming around at NDAC the other week in 70m + with all the lights flashing !
(And before anyone states the bleeding obvious, I also can see that "evolving slowly" makes more £ for Poseidon. If I had a pound for every promise they made, I would be typing this from my Caribbean lair !)

Your comment "too restrictive" sounds like it is a valid one, but obviously that is relative to what you want / need ?

For instance, some of the divers I have trained with the Mk6 want / need a unit that is doing more of the "driving" than some of the other RB's that are out there, i.e. cameramen. They have no need to go deep, they have no need and will probably not incur deco obligations, (but can if they want to), have other complicated kit (to me anyways :rolleyes:) that they do need to concentrate on, and can take the approach that they are there to do a specific task where the cost of sorb is less of an issue in the bigger picture, etc etc.

I think you will always get individuals saying such and such a unit is better, or worse, or costs too much or is too heavy than an RB 55 ffs chrome molybendium slipwit, but that's life.
Generalising, most rebreathers will do what they say on the tin. Some are more complicated (less reliable in some peoples eye's) and visa versa. I dont think the Mk6 in its current format is saying, i am an expedition level rebreather, likewise, an "Expedition" Sentinel might be a sledgehammer to crack a nut ?

Each to his own.
If you fancy a try dive drop me a PM.

[Mike Ward]

Hi Ootini, being as I own and dive one of these:

The standard recreational unit is 40m/no deco/air dil only. If you stray below 40m or enter deco the unit will gently remind you that you're being a terribly bad person with the electronic equivalent of a gentle tap on the door, but will continue to operate and will give you all the info you need to ascend safely.

The blue trimix battery allows for a minimum of 16% oxygen and any helium fraction, and the depth reminder kicks in at 48m. As Neil points out, the unit will go deeper, but it will make sure you know you ought to be on the naughty step. There's no deco warning as it's assumed you'll now be carrying bailout and not relying on the inbuilt dil.

In terms of skills, there aren't many, just minimum loop, buoyancy control and regular handset monitoring. If the unit detects an issue it will alarm, and believe me the full alarm is very, very different from the depth reminder or the deco reminder - you get lights, loud bleeps and a vibrating mouthpiece that you really cannot miss. The only response to any problem is to switch to open circuit using the standard BOV, a one-finger job, and ascend to the surface. Same applies if you feel uncomfortable in any way. You switch to OC and ascend.

You can get aftermarket scrubbers that take loose sorb. I use one. I've no problem with the pre-packed scrubbers but they are three times the price of loose sofnolime.

Poseidon have announced a full tech version of the Mk VI that will use redundant electronics, have manual addition of diluent and oxygen, allow use of hypoxic trimix and be CE certified to 100m but that seems to have stalled for a bit. Some suggest it'll finally be shown at DEMA, but who knows? Poseidon have said that the cost of a Tech unit will be the same as the cost of a MkVI plus the kit to upgrade it to the full Tech unit. Again, who knows? There's also a rumour of a 60m trimix battery (Red? Minimum 10% O2?) with manual adds but no redundant electronics, so a sort of half-way house. Yet again, who knows?

Why buy one? I bought mine because I preferred it to any other unit I've tried. I was fully aware of the limitations, some of which I don't see as an issue, some of which I do. I saw it as a trade-off and still do, and on the whole I'm quite happy.

Is it right for you? I dunno. I can tell you what the unit can and can't do, and I can tell you why it's OK for me, but that's it.

[ootini]

Hey everyone thanks for the info, sorry if I'm doing everyone's head in asking school boy questions about CCRs but it's something I'm very interested in. I think I'm going to do the following, "Try Dives" but not too many, as NickB pointed out, they all cost money and that's chewing into the budget for the unit and training, so I'm think a try dive on an eCCR (Inspo) an mCCR (rEvo) and an r/eCCR (MKVI) that's all three "bases" covered and will give me a better idea of which avenue is more to my liking. I know there are further variants within each branch of CCR development and I'm happy to listen to suggestions on which specific unit to try (I'm just guessing), but I don't see the point in spending a fcuk load of money trying four or five different mCCRs only to find afterwards that the eCCR was more my cuppa tea to begin with. For what it's worth, there are a couple of units that are simply "No's" for various reasons, mostly cost., and yes, the Hollis Explorer is in that list.

Sound sensible?

[Mike Ward]

I bet you'll prefer the Poseidon, it's smaller, lighter and simpler to dive. But does that make it the correct rebreather for you? I don't know, I don't know what you want to do with it.

Sorry if that isn't helpful.

[The Duck]

Sounds sensible to me - though the thing to watch with the try dive is that it might not give you a true impression of the unit. For example I really hated my first 10 or so hours on my Inspo, but after that it was okay.

Having said that, I did try the rEVo first of all which was so easy to dive, clutter free and so compact - after that both the Inspo and the Sentinal that I tried felt cumbersom and bulky. (The reason that I ended up with the Inspo was that it was £1700 ready to dive - it would probably be even less now.)

[ootini]

I bet you'll prefer the Poseidon, it's smaller, lighter and simpler to dive. But does that make it the correct rebreather for you? I don't know, I don't know what you want to do with it.

Sorry if that isn't helpful.

OK well basically I want to continue diving in my current range 30-40m on average, with the potential for increasing that as my love of rust becomes more potent. I'd love to one day mooch around Le Polynesien in Malta, so 70ish is "the goal" if that makes sense. In the mean time however I do most of my diving around 30-40m interspersed with shallow as f**k bimbles around the North Wales coast in 10-20m. I understand the diving I do, but I'm not experienced enough to know which CCR is best suited to that range.

[ootini]

Sounds sensible to me - though the thing to watch with the try dive is that it might not give you a true impression of the unit. For example I really hated my first 10 or so hours on my Inspo, but after that it was okay.

Having said that, I did try the rEVo first of all which was so easy to dive, clutter free and so compact - after that both the Inspo and the Sentinal that I tried felt cumbersom and bulky. (The reason that I ended up with the Inspo was that it was £1700 ready to dive - it would probably be even less now.)

That's a good point, one of my big factors is going to be budget. Exactly how much is yet to be decided (by SWMBO) but it won't stretch to a new Auroboros.

[Mike Ward]

OK well basically I want to continue diving in my current range 30-40m on average, with the potential for increasing that as my love of rust becomes more potent. I'd love to one day mooch around Le Polynesien in Malta, so 70ish is "the goal" if that makes sense. In the mean time however I do most of my diving around 30-40m interspersed with shallow as f**k bimbles around the North Wales coast in 10-20m. I understand the diving I do, but I'm not experienced enough to know which CCR is best suited to that range.

Any CCR will support what you do now and the Poseidon is perfect for it. The Poseidon currently won't (Officially) do 70m, but by the time you're ready to go there it might.

Take your time making up your mind. It's a lot of cash to drop.

[Woz]

I'm looking at (finally) closing the loop this year. I've dicked about with homebuilds so am pretty comfortable with the way the things work- I just need the Mod 1 ticket. Will probably do it on an Inspo, buy a used unit and see if I get on with the whole rebreathery thing. I'm pretty squared away with twinsets but the helium bills are a pain in the arse especially if you have a set full off squeaky stuff then Mr Blowy decides he's dropping you in the harbour for a 15m potter. Booooooo.

The whole point for me isn't just cos I've run out of things to do. It's cos I want to go and play in Norway for a week or two, and maybe go and do a few deep South Coast trips and ooo deep Shetland for a week or two too. Oh and Malin. So basically deep stuff.

[JPTaylor]

The techie version is on its way shortly.

I understand that was a spoof to get feedback......

[ootini]

I'm looking at (finally) closing the loop this year. I've dicked about with homebuilds so am pretty comfortable with the way the things work- I just need the Mod 1 ticket. Will probably do it on an Inspo, buy a used unit and see if I get on with the whole rebreathery thing. I'm pretty squared away with twinsets but the helium bills are a pain in the arse especially if you have a set full off squeaky stuff then Mr Blowy decides he's dropping you in the harbour for a 15m potter. Booooooo.

The whole point for me isn't just cos I've run out of things to do. It's cos I want to go and play in Norway for a week or two, and maybe go and do a few deep South Coast trips and ooo deep Shetland for a week or two too. Oh and Malin. So basically deep stuff.

Exactly, I want to start heading deeper over time and don't fancy pissing a load of helium up against the door. I'm blagging the Mrs to see a box as an "investment" which it is, to be fair.

[JPTaylor]

Exactly, I want to start heading deeper over time and don't fancy pissing a load of helium up against the door. I'm blagging the Mrs to see a box as an "investment" which it is, to be fair.

Do the sensible thing & get an Evolution or Inspiration..... (the only RB you'll ever need!) 2nd hand ones aren't too expensive....

[Cheeky Monkey]

Hey everyone thanks for the info, sorry if I'm doing everyone's head in asking school boy questions about CCRs but it's something I'm very interested in.

its a great thread to read, as a curious non CCR diver

[ootini]

Do the sensible thing & get an Evolution or Inspiration..... (the only RB you'll ever need!) 2nd hand ones aren't too expensive....

I assume you dive an Inspo or Evo?

[JPTaylor]

I assume you dive an Inspo or Evo?

...I have also dived/owned a Sentinel, know the Meg fairly well & dived a MCR unit I've forgotten the name of (not a KISS)

JJ looks good but CE units too expensive!

Have yet to a see a Poseidon MKVI on a dive boat!

[notdeadyet]

What's the bloody point in that

After a series of failed new regulator launches and rebadged cheap kit they needed something to keep them going.

They have however invented a brilliant way of making recreational nitrox diving into an expensive and complex activity.

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[Mike Ward]

Do the sensible thing & get an Evolution or Inspiration..... (the only RB you'll ever need!) 2nd hand ones aren't too expensive....

That was my starting point and there are times I wish it had been where I'd ended up. But I suspect that whatever I'd bought there would have been times I'd have wished I'd gone with something else!

[Mike Ward]

They have however invented a brilliant way of making recreational nitrox diving into an expensive and complex activity.

Cynic! :D

[ootini]

Just watched the Vimeo with Richard Pyle explaining the whole unit (didn't know he had anything to do with it). Quite informative and interesting apart from the shockingly cringe worth "thumbs up" at the end. I shivered!

Must admit, I thought I'd discounted this unit, but the more I read and learn about it, the more tempting it is. But, as I say, try diving a few units is the first port of call.

[Woz]

Fancy doing Mod 1 together? I've asked Mark Callaghan and he's up for it. If you're a BSAC member then you can borrow one of the 2 Visions kicking about.

[ootini]

Fancy doing Mod 1 together? I've asked Mark Callaghan and he's up for it. If you're a BSAC member then you can borrow one of the 2 Visions kicking about.

I'm not a BSAC member but to avoid the rental cost joining would be worth it I should imagine. When you planning on doing it?

[Mike Ward]

Fancy doing Mod 1 together? I've asked Mark Callaghan and he's up for it. If you're a BSAC member then you can borrow one of the 2 Visions kicking about.

That's a proper fair offer!

[nickb]

If I wanted to go CCR on a budget, I'd do what everyone else in the same situation does and get a cheap second-hand Inspo. I'd try to get someone who knew their way around one like the back of their hand to help me ensure I was buying a decent unit that wasn't going to be a money pit. This board is full of people just like that.

If I had the money for a new unit, I wouldn't spunk it in a Poseidon MkVI, even if the all-singing, all-dancing version was out next week or even now. I might still go for option 1 and spend the rest doing a shit load of diving.

[Woz]

I'm not a BSAC member but to avoid the rental cost joining would be worth it I should imagine. When you planning on doing it?

When the water is a bit warmer. Probably May onwards time.

[Mr Flibble]

Just man up and get yourself a proper rebreather and not one of those 'holiday diver' efforts being developed for PADI. :-)

[SoggyBottoms]

Fancy doing Mod 1 together? I've asked Mark Callaghan and he's up for it. If you're a BSAC member then you can borrow one of the 2 Visions kicking about.

Dave - don't tell him I said it but Mark Callaghan is a really good instructor.

I did a MOD1 with him the other year when we were getting Barry legal for Malin.

Very capable, calm and patient. Loads of war stories and biscuits.

[Neil Brock]

When the water is a bit warmer. Probably May onwards time.

And you reckon my bikes gay !, f**king lightweight or what :D

[Neil Brock]

If I wanted to go CCR on a budget, I'd do what everyone else in the same situation does and get a cheap second-hand Inspo. I'd try to get someone who knew their way around one like the back of their hand to help me ensure I was buying a decent unit that wasn't going to be a money pit. This board is full of people just like that.

If I had the money for a new unit, I wouldn't spunk it in a Poseidon MkVI, even if the all-singing, all-dancing version was out next week or even now. I might still go for option 1 and spend the rest doing a shit load of diving.

My sentiments exactly, I might still go for option 1 and spend some doing a little diving, some on rum, and a shit pile on a 916..........i would spend the rest foolishly

[Gary]

Yeah, planning on doing Mod1 in Feb was madness!