PDA

View Full Version : using industrial o2 in a ccr



steve c r
01-11-2016, 06:29 PM
hi all is anybody out there actualy using industrial o2 in there rebreather ? comman scence tells me its the same gas as diving grade. but most companys who are willing to deal in small amounts [1 j per month ] dont sell diving grade. boc want an arm and a leg in payment for getting dive grde from them. and after all the purity is the same 99.5% pure. just looking for assurance i wont die before getting a j of ind o2 . thanks in advance

hamishmorrison
01-11-2016, 06:40 PM
My usage is considerably less than what you mention & I currently pay Air Liquide 34.60 for a J of Diving Oxygen. Having said that I'm 99.5% sure you won't die if you take industrial grade!

Firthy
01-11-2016, 06:40 PM
The assurance and certification that you won't die from impurities in the gas is why diving grade costs more.

You may well be fine with industrial grade gas but i'd be careful what purity grade you were buying and no supplier is going to offer that assurance.

nigel hewitt
01-11-2016, 07:22 PM
I've happily used it when my supplier didn't have diving grade.
Ditto industrial helium.

The purity is the same, it just has a different paper trail to document it.

flyingfisheye
01-11-2016, 08:09 PM
The purity is the same, it just has a different paper trail to document it.

I heard the same too, a mate used to run an engineering factory, he was a diver they used to have loads of O2 sent in from BOC. He asked once what the difference was between the black industrial cylinders of O2 and the White top medical ones and the diving ones. Now and again he was sent the White top medical cylinders of O2. Basically the answer was the same o2 in the cylinders but the paper work was not the same. I guess as Air has a fair amount of impurities in it 79% in fact. I often wondered what the difference was between Diving O2 and also Diving Helium from the others available?

WFO
01-11-2016, 08:47 PM
Yeah, welding grade o2 and helium from air products. The purity is as good as dive grade.

Jackdiver
02-11-2016, 08:11 AM
I have used W's of welding O2 for years...

steve c r
02-11-2016, 06:59 PM
thanks lads shall give it a shot

Paulo
02-11-2016, 07:39 PM
Lads in my local BOC and Air Products places have told me the only difference is that they purge the medical / diving stuff every time and that it comes with a papertrail. BOC diving o2 was 99.5% when I checked the data sheets and the industrial was 99.95 so was actually "purer" but I suspect that the difference was that they were only willing to stand over 99.5 for diving / medical.


BTW diving / medical are the same just diving is a higher pressure, if you didnt know

Tewdric
02-11-2016, 07:40 PM
Yeah, welding grade o2 and helium from air products. The purity is as good as dive grade.



Any evidence for that statement? A reference would be useful.

Paulo
02-11-2016, 07:41 PM
Any evidence for that statement? A reference would be useful.

To which part?

Tewdric
02-11-2016, 07:44 PM
Sorry I fluffed the quote - now corrected. You're quick :)

Tewdric
02-11-2016, 07:52 PM
Lads in my local BOC and Air Products places have told me the only difference is that they purge the medical / diving stuff every time and that it comes with a papertrail. BOC diving o2 was 99.5% when I checked the data sheets and the industrial was 99.95 so was actually "purer" but I suspect that the difference was that they were only willing to stand over 99.5 for diving / medical.

BTW diving / medical are the same just diving is a higher pressure, if you didnt know

So diving grade is continually quality assured as suitable for pumping to super high scuba tank pressure and the rest is probably the same, but without the additional procedural steps there's no way of knowing for sure?

nigel hewitt
02-11-2016, 08:13 PM
Good, consistent welds are important to a business.
That demands reliable gasses.
None of this 'breathing' rubbish.

Paulo
02-11-2016, 08:21 PM
The grumpier of the 2 in my local BOC is always very quick to point out that they do not condone decanting O2. I always ask him what sort of dive to 6m does he think I am doing with his 90kg cylinder

germie
07-11-2016, 09:14 AM
I have used the industrial helium and oxygen several times. No problems.
The biggest difference is not the purity, but that the 50L cylinders where you get it in are not cleaned for they fill them again. So that means that someone could have drained it totally or made impurities in it. With dive oxygen the cylinders are cleaned before you get them. This is what is told to me.

nigel hewitt
07-11-2016, 09:33 AM
I have used the industrial helium and oxygen several times. No problems.
The biggest difference is not the purity, but that the 50L cylinders where you get it in are not cleaned for they fill them again. So that means that someone could have drained it totally or made impurities in it. With dive oxygen the cylinders are cleaned before you get them. This is what is told to me.
So the 99.99% pure certificate is a lie?
I really doubt that.

germie
07-11-2016, 09:49 AM
This is what is told to me. I have never asked it at Air Products themselves or Messer. But I have used industrial oxygen and 4.5 Helium instead of 5.0.

Energy58
07-11-2016, 10:49 AM
So the 99.99% pure certificate is a lie?
I really doubt that.

Welding gas has to be pretty pure. 99.99% pure is presumably 99.995%+ pure in their tank and the rest is the 1 bar of God knows what left in the cylinder when it is vented to atmosphere. I breathe stuff a lot less pure than that!

Capt Morgan
07-11-2016, 11:07 AM
I use welding O2 for all my fills and it's been fine, I always analyse it before use
and I'm happy with the results so far.
I use diving grade helium but I have access to "Balloon Gas" when analysed it was
as pure as diving grade but I have never used it, has anyone? It would be interesting
to know just what the difference is.

jamesp
07-11-2016, 03:52 PM
I use welding O2 for all my fills and it's been fine, I always analyse it before use
and I'm happy with the results so far.
I use diving grade helium but I have access to "Balloon Gas" when analysed it was
as pure as diving grade but I have never used it, has anyone? It would be interesting
to know just what the difference is.

I was under the impression that balloon gas was an air/helium mix to avoid hypoxic incidents?

Friend had a cylinder in his office for the sales drive, if he still has it I could stick the analyser on it and find out what the He % actually is.

Capt Morgan
07-11-2016, 04:09 PM
I was under the impression that balloon gas was an air/helium mix to avoid hypoxic incidents?

Friend had a cylinder in his office for the sales drive, if he still has it I could stick the analyser on it and find out what the He % actually is.

I thought the same but then I came across this (http://www.boconline.co.uk/internet.lg.lg.gbr/en/images/tg-8312-helium-v1.4410_39593.pdf) and it says 100%, same as what it analysed at.

flyingfisheye
07-11-2016, 04:25 PM
I was under the impression that balloon gas was an air/helium mix to avoid hypoxic incidents?

Friend had a cylinder in his office for the sales drive, if he still has it I could stick the analyser on it and find out what the He % actually is.

I had access to "Balloon gas" once and analysed it, it was 95% Helium. I was under the impression it was 50% helium and 50% Air but but was 95% helium 5% O2 from what I remember.

One of the things that I wondered about was the words "Diving grade" as both Oxygen and Helium are both elements and as such is there not just one version?

Clem
07-11-2016, 04:49 PM
At least some balloon gas has a lot of other gases inside - this is purely from the experience that the radio controlled shark balloons fly well with pure helium but are too heavy for balloon gas to even lift off... :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Paulo
07-11-2016, 05:28 PM
I thought the same but then I came across this (http://www.boconline.co.uk/internet.lg.lg.gbr/en/images/tg-8312-helium-v1.4410_39593.pdf) and it says 100%, same as what it analysed at.

Identifies diving as an accepted use by my reading

MikeF
07-11-2016, 07:19 PM
though it looks more like a generic SDS for Helium gas as contained in various supplied products such as balloon gas/diving gas/calibration gas/ purge gas/etc.

and as a bit of a professional pedant what the 100% bit actually says is :

Purity: 100 %
The purity of the substance in this section is used for classification only, and does
not represent the actual purity of the substance as supplied, for which other
documentation should be consulted.

which is a lot different to saying that balloon gas is 100% helium.

Paulo
07-11-2016, 07:22 PM
People that know more about these things than me have told me that they would use industrial grade gases down to around 60m. Past that depth they want the "proper" stuff. I suppose the pp of what ever impurities are magnified at depth

Capt Morgan
07-11-2016, 08:09 PM
People that know more about these things than me have told me that they would use industrial grade gases down to around 60m. Past that depth they want the "proper" stuff. I suppose the pp of what ever impurities are magnified at depth

I've only ever used welding O2 in my unit
and have been quite a bit deeper than 60m
with no problems. The balloon gas on the
other hand just doesn't sit well with me.

Mark Chase
08-11-2016, 01:12 PM
If in doubt, get the diveing grade and stop fretting about it on the dive.

Personaly i use welding grade and dont fret over it.

Amusingly the "diving grade Helium" is guarenteed to be 99.5% pure where as the N5 Industrial grade helium I use is cheaper and guarenteed to be 99.999%???? Go figure


I can tolerate some impurtitys in my diving grade but I need 100% 02 for my welding :D

ATB

Soup Dragon
08-11-2016, 05:09 PM
:y:Yep another welding 02er here.
Soup dragon

String
13-11-2016, 12:03 AM
I have used the industrial helium and oxygen several times. No problems.
The biggest difference is not the purity, but that the 50L cylinders where you get it in are not cleaned for they fill them again. So that means that someone could have drained it totally or made impurities in it. With dive oxygen the cylinders are cleaned before you get them. This is what is told to me.

Our work tanks have to be returned with a certain minimum pressure in. Under that we get a fine for cleaning I guess some muppet could have decanted or boosted something else into it if they were trying but i really cant see that.

Im using balloon grade HE and bog standard industrial welding grade O2 and i appear to still be functioning.

Spinal
13-11-2016, 04:26 PM
Out of curiosity - in case of an accident where insurance companies are involved, does using industrial gas cause any issues?

flyingfisheye
13-11-2016, 06:31 PM
Out of curiosity - in case of an accident where insurance companies are involved, does using industrial gas cause any issues?

Having been involved in an inquest and police investigation, there was not much interest in the Gas breathed other then a brief question as to where it came from. Nothing else was asked type of sorb, service records or even the personal training record of those involved. But this might be due to no formal investigation procedure or agency being involved, other than the Police and they were not diving people. They did send kit off to the Police diving department, who just confirmed that it worked and described its operation. But I have seen reports where "expert witnesses" described the kit and the modification etc.

regards

cathal
13-11-2016, 06:48 PM
Our work tanks have to be returned with a certain minimum pressure in. Under that we get a fine for cleaning I guess some muppet could have decanted or boosted something else into it if they were trying but i really cant see that.

Im using balloon grade HE and bog standard industrial welding grade O2 and i appear to still be functioning.

There is also an NRV on each J to stop any external gases from say a garage or factory from getting into the cylinder. So I'd agree the industrial O2 is probably as clean as the diving grade O2 but the thing is as depth increases so does doubt. So for anything deeper than 60M personally I'd go for the proper stuff just so in my head I can categorically rule out any issues with O2 purity. At depth is not the place to be wondering was that a bad O2 fill.

Cathal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Paul r s
13-11-2016, 07:21 PM
What is the cost of none diving grade o2, boc have quoted me 40+VAT for a J


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

flyingfisheye
13-11-2016, 08:03 PM
There is also an NRV on each J to stop any external gases from say a garage or factory from getting into the cylinder. So I'd agree the industrial O2 is probably as clean as the diving grade O2 but the thing is as depth increases so does doubt. So for anything deeper than 60M personally I'd go for the proper stuff just so in my head I can categorically rule out any issues with O2 purity. At depth is not the place to be wondering was that a bad O2 fill.

Cathal

Just thinking, 02 is 02, surely 200 plus bar in the cylinder will not take kindly to the impurities? If you think there are impurities in there? So if we are to believe the O2 clean hype then I would imagine that the O2 in the Wielding cylinders is the same as the O2 in the diving cylinders? just a though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Energy58
14-11-2016, 08:01 AM
There is also an NRV on each J to stop any external gases from say a garage or factory from getting into the cylinder.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure this is always the case for O2 and it certainly isn't for He and Ar. But they may supply different cylinders to garages etc. compared to places with somewhat more exacting requirements!

flyingfisheye
14-11-2016, 09:07 AM
Again I was having a thought about this, do we need pure O2? As we go deeper we actually need less %O2 at 90M we need 13% O2 minimum to produce 1.3 set point at 90M, loop would be 13% O2 55% Helium 32% Nitrogen I guess if you wanted 1.3ppo2 and a narcotic depth of 30M. so even a cylinder of Air could produce that O2%. I know that there would be more gas used from the O2 cylinder source. Just wondering what impurities we are worried about? After all neither Nitrogen or Helium will support life and we are happy to breath both of them. If you dive a sentinel CCR it is very easy due to their great off board system to plug in your rich bale out if your O2 onboard is low and use the rich bale out at depth and leave the onboard high O2 for the deco phase. ( very handy feature especially if the dive centre booster is broken and they can only give 100 bar O2 or less, as all automatic no need to manual add for the entire dive). So I struggle to see what the difference is between the so called diving grades? I wish someone who knows would comment? Is it just paper work for the cylinders? I know some guys who work at BOC and they have said when they make O2 its all O2 there are no grades.

Baron015
14-11-2016, 09:40 AM
On MV Windward liveaboard in Bikini the O2 was about 90% most of the rest was Argon, a byproduct of the O2 generating machine.

Only issue is Argon is a lot more narcotic than N2. So we hiked up the He in the diluent a bit....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WFO
22-11-2016, 01:49 PM
I have used the industrial helium and oxygen several times. No problems.
The biggest difference is not the purity, but that the 50L cylinders where you get it in are not cleaned for they fill them again. So that means that someone could have drained it totally or made impurities in it. With dive oxygen the cylinders are cleaned before you get them. This is what is told to me.

Urban myth I reckon.

Can you imagine the shouty letters that would go flying around if they supplied contaminated gas and fucked up a few million quids worth of aerospace laser welding machine or similar?