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View Full Version : Recreational rebreather fail



graham_hk
12-09-2016, 07:01 PM
...

Steve Clark
12-09-2016, 08:27 PM
It's still 5 times more expensive than a 15L cylinder full of 32%.

notdeadyet
12-09-2016, 08:42 PM
At least the Dolphin was a damn well made unit. I wouldn't trust the genius that came up with that piece of shite to make me a brew and remember the sugar.

WFO
13-09-2016, 06:59 AM
Didn't work out for those japanese fellas who had a go at it either.

You'd think someone with an R and D budget would be competent at using a search engine?

thetrickster
13-09-2016, 11:58 AM
Thats the price it should of been from the beginning. They might of got some traction in the market with it then.

Alas even in the hottest places I've dived, an hour is enough to have a poke around a dive site at 15-25m - and that you can do on an Ali80/100, all without this fuss.

String
21-09-2016, 06:13 PM
We see a few here. Market base is rich americans that want a "toy" who have no real interest in technical diving or even any diving outside NDL/30m. The "more money than sense" is quite a niche market too.
Add to that the things are horribly unreliable....and theres a v2 out soon.

Paulo
21-09-2016, 06:45 PM
Was one on the boat on my trip last weekend doing 45min bottom time on 36m wrecks doing mandatory deco. Decoing out on a ppo2 of 0.5 and spending 25mins doing the 10mins the rest of us were doing is not my ideal but he seemed happy enough...... til I showed hom that divelife were flogging the toys off for 1k :D

notdeadyet
21-09-2016, 07:44 PM
That's hilarious. Decoing on 0.5. I guess the only way to make simple diving more expensive is go full GUE.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

matt
21-09-2016, 09:12 PM
Is this the one from the same stable at the Oroboradorris?

Matt.

drmwc
21-09-2016, 09:50 PM
Can one buy a recreational version of the Apoc?

Paulo
21-09-2016, 09:52 PM
That's hilarious. Decoing on 0.5. I guess the only way to make simple diving more expensive is go full GUE.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

Worst thing was he said he got rid of a real unit and replaced it with that :D

Each to their own I suppose

AndrewRawlingson
22-09-2016, 03:04 AM
Well Atlantis/Dolphin didn't work out for Draeger - looking like the Hollis isn't doing too well:

http://www.divelife.co.uk/scuba-manufacturers/Hollis-Gear/7000/Hollis-Explorer-Rebreather

At that price, I was momentarily tempted, just for the hell of it.

WFO
22-09-2016, 11:10 AM
At that price, I was momentarily tempted, just for the hell of it.

Might be a decent source of homebuild parts.... but I doubt it

WFO
22-09-2016, 11:25 AM
Is this the one from the same stable at the Oroboradorris?

Matt.

I think it's a "sort of".... was it some sort of cooperation between hollis and CC research/VR/vobster lot?

How the fook any of the 'boris DNA (which had its issues but for the time was pretty bloody groundbreaking and got used for some serious shenanigans) got into these bag of shit things I've no idea.

dynarob
22-09-2016, 05:14 PM
Is this the one from the same stable at the Oroboradorris?

Matt.

Yes, it was developed by VR originally. By coincidence my girlfriend's ex did all the mechanical design on it.... I'll leave it there :D

graham_hk
22-09-2016, 06:41 PM
...

jamesp
22-09-2016, 06:56 PM
I just did a 85m, 80min BT, 5 hour dive today (and another 2 x 4 hour dives days before) with my GUE ccr today - good luck making those dives more simple! I suspect I have missed more deco from my computer than most recreational divers do in a year.

I doubt you were using 32% for the bottom mix though.

cathal
22-09-2016, 06:57 PM
Just to be sure of what you said: a 1 hour twenty minute bottom time at 85 meters with a 5 hour runtime. Looks like you have missed about 4 hours of deco. Would love to hear more.

Ian_6301
23-09-2016, 08:12 AM
Just to be sure of what you said: a 1 hour twenty minute bottom time at 85 meters with a 5 hour runtime. Looks like you have missed about 4 hours of deco. Would love to hear more.

Yup. Multideco on GF20/85, 10/70 dil, 1.2 SP 85m, 80 mins looks like a 10 hr dive to me, Graham.

Even running straight Buhlmann, it's 419 mins or 7 hrs...

Did you do some extra deco in a chamber, or have I missed something?

jturner
23-09-2016, 08:33 AM
Yup. Multideco on GF20/85, 10/70 dil, 1.2 SP 85m, 80 mins looks like a 10 hr dive to me, Graham.

Even running straight Buhlmann, it's 419 mins or 7 hrs...

Did you do some extra deco in a chamber, or have I missed something?

He was in a submarine, with the CCR as emergency escape equipment?!

Paulo
23-09-2016, 11:06 AM
Or typo

dynarob
23-09-2016, 11:19 AM
Or typo

Edited this morning (to remove the boast about 'missing' deco)

Conceivable it's a cave dive so not square profile.

I've noticed that divers from certain agencies like to suggest they're such amazing athletes that they don't need to do the same deco as mere mortals, I just saw it as more of that.

Garf
23-09-2016, 11:37 AM
Edited this morning (to remove the boast about 'missing' deco)

Conceivable it's a cave dive so not square profile.

I've noticed certain agencies like to suggest that their divers are such amazing athletes that they don't need to do the same deco as mere mortals, I just saw it as more of that.

I've never seen an agency suggest anything on these boards. Divers themselves on the other hand, might say any old bollocks on the internet. Please do not equate individual diver statements to an agency policy as that's how agency bashing and inter-agency irritations start.

GUE, for example, have to my knowledge never made an official statement on this board. GUE DO encourage people to make lifestyle changes when diving to benefit their decompression and their own personal health and safety. Fitter divers will do better decompression. I think most people accept that. However, the agency has to my knowledge never suggested it's divers are amazing athletes, or indeed fitter than anyone else.

We all have our personal goals and standards. One of the reasons I decided to take a break and not to renew my GUE instructor status this year is that I have NOT made appropriate lifestyle changes. I have become a fat twat. I decided it would be completely hypocritical to teach people the importance of fitness when I had to work to get through an HSE medical.

cathal
23-09-2016, 11:37 AM
Edited this morning (to remove the boast about 'missing' deco)
Conceivable it's a cave dive so not square profile.

Can you kindly point out how a 85 meter 80 minute BT in a cave profile reduces your deco obligations by at least 4 hours?

Cathal

Garf
23-09-2016, 11:40 AM
Can you kindly point out how a 85 meter 80 minute BT in a cave profile reduces your deco obligations by at least 4 hours?

Cathal

Easy. The cave might bottom out at 85 metres. You reach that point, turn around. You don't spend the whole dive at 85M just the section of the cave at that depth.

cathal
23-09-2016, 11:46 AM
Can you kindly point out the bit where Graham said he was at 85 metres for the entirety of the bottom time?

The bit where where he said he did a 85 meter dive with an 80 minute BT. :
"I just did a 85m, 80min BT, 5 hour dive today "

To me that means he spent 80 minutes from when he began to descend to 85 meters and it finished when he started his ascent from 85 meters. But maybe Graham can clarify this bit better.

Stew W
23-09-2016, 11:49 AM
Or typo


Edited this morning (to remove the boast about 'missing' deco)

Conceivable it's a cave dive so not square profile.

I've noticed certain agencies like to suggest that their divers are such amazing athletes that they don't need to do the same deco as mere mortals, I just saw it as more of that.

In fairness to Graham he's not a boastful person. He just generally does these style of dives, and it ends up in the conversation.

As to omitted deco, I think the tell tale sign would be that the Ginger Chiseller was typing from a small cylindrical room at DDRC if he had ;)

Having had some tuition from him, it's fair to say that his deco knowledge is tad above the average of the forum. I'd recommend training with him if you wanted to understand the planning of such dives.


... that's as nice as I'm going to be today. I'm off to troll FB now....

Garf
23-09-2016, 12:06 PM
The bit where where he said he did a 85 meter dive with an 80 minute BT. :
"I just did a 85m, 80min BT, 5 hour dive today "

To me that means he spent 80 minutes from when he began to descend to 85 meters and it finished when he started his ascent from 85 meters. But maybe Graham can clarify this bit better.

So you assume a square profile. Much of the world's diving is not like this. I'm not saying Graham didn't do a square profile, just that it's easy to leap to conclusions.

cathal
23-09-2016, 12:53 PM
So you assume a square profile. Much of the world's diving is not like this. I'm not saying Graham didn't do a square profile, just that it's easy to leap to conclusions.

If it turns out what you propose may of happened did indeed happen, then saying I did 85 Meters with an 80 min BT may possibly not be the right way to describe it.

Pete Bullen
23-09-2016, 01:54 PM
They do pimp up nicely though, here is a pimped one next to a standard one in the inland sea. :) We had some guys out here doing the course a few weeks ago, and the units performed flawlessly the whole week.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm243/petebalkan/Hollis%20edit-7030075.jpg (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/petebalkan/media/Hollis%20edit-7030075.jpg.html)

Garf
23-09-2016, 02:08 PM
If it turns out what you propose may of happened did indeed happen, then saying I did 85 Meters with an 80 min BT may possibly not be the right way to describe it.

Again, I'm not proposing anything, just not assuming anything.

Ian_6301
23-09-2016, 05:12 PM
They do pimp up nicely though, here is a pimped one next to a standard one in the inland sea. :) We had some guys out here doing the course a few weeks ago, and the units performed flawlessly the whole week.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm243/petebalkan/Hollis%20edit-7030075.jpg (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/petebalkan/media/Hollis%20edit-7030075.jpg.html)

... Unlike their owners...

matt
23-09-2016, 05:21 PM
Yes, it was developed by VR originally. By coincidence my girlfriend's ex did all the mechanical design on it.... I'll leave it there :D

Wouldn't touch anything made by Gurr again, not after the shoddy support on VR$.

Sentinel <snigger>.

matt
23-09-2016, 05:23 PM
Can you kindly point out how a 85 meter 80 minute BT in a cave profile reduces your deco obligations by at least 4 hours?

Cathal

Bounce?

Janos
23-09-2016, 05:46 PM
I've never seen an agency suggest anything on these boards. Divers themselves on the other hand, might say any old bollocks...

It's not quite as straightforward as that though is it :). If I talk about "how we teach..." then people would interpret that as reflecting a BSAC school of thought, whether it is or not, and even though I don't have any official capacity for posting on t'internet.

Similarly, when other individuals who are associated with one particular agency say something then people interpret it as that agency's position.

FWIW I do think that GUE / DIR had a problem with an overly aggressive and macho attitude towards deco several years back. I'm pleased if that's not the case now. :thumbsup: (By way of balance I thought their attitude towards oxygen toxicity was overly cautious - but that's not a bad thing.)

Janos

dynarob
23-09-2016, 05:47 PM
Wouldn't touch anything made by Gurr again, not after the shoddy support on VR$.

Sentinel <snigger>.

Not sure how much Gurr had to do with the Explorer, but at least he dives a rebreather and has some sort of understanding of how they work and more importantly of how they don't :devil:

OutOfTest
24-09-2016, 02:11 AM
I just did a 85m, 80min BT, 5 hour dive today (and another 2 x 4 hour dives days before) with my GUE ccr today - good luck making those dives more simple and cheaper!

Not doing it on a JJ? That would probably make it cheaper. Not having such large attached dil cylinders requiring special valves with manifolds and a full drain down of the system to blow off a tonne of gas if you want to use different dil would all make it cheaper.

As for simple, maybe a less convoluted rebreather set up than 7s or 12s strapped to a rebreather with both full electronic and manual addition with both CCR and OC redundancy...

Add to this team dynamics and bailout in the complication side of things, with everybody carrying enough gas to get themselves out of trouble but still diving strictly inside a team, hence touch contact drills in no vis, which don't come into play when solo, the whole group cluster around junctions etc which again, don't play in solo diving.

So, I can conclude it would be simpler, and cheaper, solo on a KISS.


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notdeadyet
24-09-2016, 08:09 AM
Why would you change dil on an 80m dive?

A 5hr run is best case. If it goes worst case it is going to be a lot more than that. I wouldn't choose a KISS can to do that on. 5hrs is way beyond manuf recommendations and about the limit of what I would use mine for. Particularly with 1.5hrs at depth.

I see more people diving Inspos with 7's strapped to the case than I've seen JJ's. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a JJ on a boat, must be a southern thing.

I'm not usually one to defend the iPhone of rebreathers but that post is the most nonsensical on the thread.

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OutOfTest
24-09-2016, 09:25 AM
Change dil between dives.

5 hour dives on a KISS are relatively commonplace.

Inspos with 7s aren't manifolded with full OC longhose/back up set up either


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Janos
24-09-2016, 09:30 AM
In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a JJ on a boat, must be a southern thing.

I'm surprised you've never seen a JJ on a boat. Although that's part of the problem of relying on personal experience as a source of evidence though. There was a presentation from TDI that showed JJ qualifications were around a quarter of Inspo qualifications in the last five years, and much bigger than that in the past couple of years.

Janos

dwhitlow
24-09-2016, 10:06 AM
I'm surprised you've never seen a JJ on a boat. Although that's part of the problem of relying on personal experience as a source of evidence though. There was a presentation from TDI that showed JJ qualifications were around a quarter of Inspo qualifications in the last five years, and much bigger than that in the past couple of years.

Janos
I was surprised by that observation too. My observation has the JJ as the second most common I see on boats, after the Inspo which is normally in the majority.

I haven't seen many of the curiously mutated cave-orientated JJ configurations. Perhaps they get used in the holes in the ground that configuration was designed for, rather than out on boats?

gobfish1
24-09-2016, 10:36 AM
Easy. The cave might bottom out at 85 metres. You reach that point, turn around. You don't spend the whole dive at 85M just the section of the cave at that depth.

so he hit 85m but his Average Depth was 10 or 15m less , lol

the 1k unit is not a bad price i bet you could bypass all the bollox on it and get some good run times out of it, plus some real ppo2 for deco , none of the silly .5 bullshit , lol pro end up killing the scrubber tho,

just need to think out side the box ,

ps paulo think your m8 will be decoing out on less than .5 as unit only works out air deco , to be on the safe side , and it can not up the ppo2 , it would need to piss out gas just to match whats in the can , once the Ambient drops the unit is fooked and needs to pump in more gas then your fooked as you run out of gas lol

notdeadyet
24-09-2016, 12:53 PM
I was surprised by that observation too. My observation has the JJ as the second most common I see on boats, after the Inspo which is normally in the majority.

Like I said, may well be a regional thing and also may well be that both of us are diving within a finite pool of divers. People tend to buy what the people around them are using. I don't doubt that it is a popular unit. Similarly, I've only ever seen two Sentinels on a boat that I can recall but plenty of people dived them. In the last couple of years it has been mostly AP units, rEvos second and maybe a couple of KISSes and Megs that I've seen.

It wasn't meant as a comment on the JJ, simply the fact that I regularly see significantly more divers with AP units on aftermarket frames with large onboard cylinders who seem to dive them perfectly OK.

notdeadyet
24-09-2016, 01:08 PM
Change dil between dives.

5 hour dives on a KISS are relatively commonplace.

Inspos with 7s aren't manifolded with full OC longhose/back up set up either


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I did 5 hours on my KISS as well when I owned one. I know plenty of people are doing in excess of that. Personally, I would put 5 hours on a small volume of lime, a unit with a massive amount of heat loss, with little or no moisture trapping, the cross section of a straw, poor WOB and a very real potential to be over-breathed right on the limit of what is safe with a KISS. If not over that limit. I suspect we know the same people who have used a KISS for very exposed dives and I would doubt any of them would say that they were using it because its performance was the best for that dive (or be using an unmodified, stock unit but that is a different story). The KISS has a lot of advantages, it is a very resilient unit, it is very simple, it is compact and it is robust. What it is not is a great performing rebreather by current standards. When you look at the cost of a new KISS in comparison to what it is then there is no way it can be justified as a "cheap" way of diving. It's a good second hand buy maybe, depending on whether it is a good old unit or a shitty modern cheap version, but certainly not a cheap way of diving otherwise.

I dived a KISS for four years, both for cave diving and open water. All things being equal it is not the unit I would now choose for deep diving. It wins for resilience and maintainability in certain environments but for performance it is a long way behind what you can get for not much more money.

graham_hk
24-09-2016, 02:44 PM
...

Baron015
24-09-2016, 04:07 PM
I was surprised by that observation too. My observation has the JJ as the second most common I see on boats, after the Inspo which is normally in the majority.

I haven't seen many of the curiously mutated cave-orientated JJ configurations. Perhaps they get used in the holes in the ground that configuration was designed for, rather than out on boats?

I've never seen a KISS. Ever. Not on boat, in quarry, in car boot sale, nothing.

Usually on boats see Inspo then JJ then Meg. Hardly any Revos now, although a few years ago they seemed more common than Megs, that seems to have swapped around. Still a few Sentinels going strong. A few rarities sighted too - Prism2, Aurora Blue, Liberty, etc.. Not one KISS.



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Paulo
24-09-2016, 04:39 PM
The CCR proliferation in Ireland is not massive. It was domjnated by AP for years and these are getting recycled through the market. A lot of new JJs out there now. I have seen a surprising number of AP Classics this year.

Only 1 KISS around that I am aware of. Couple of Mares around, odd Sentinel but few and far between. I have seen a few X-CCRs lately but they are predominantly in the hands of the Polish divers that seem to be very active here now.

Capt Morgan
24-09-2016, 05:36 PM
I've never seen a KISS. Ever. Not on boat, in quarry, in car boot sale, nothing.

Usually on boats see Inspo then JJ then Meg. Hardly any Revos now, although a few years ago they seemed more common than Megs, that seems to have swapped around. Still a few Sentinels going strong. A few rarities sighted too - Prism2, Aurora Blue, Liberty, etc.. Not one KISS.



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If you never seen a KISS you may need to
visit SpecSavers, I was diving one on the
same boat as you in Malin :)

cathal
24-09-2016, 05:51 PM
Happy to discuss profiles in person. Post on internet you're having a laugh :) GUE ccr works pretty well for me for the upto 7h dives that I do - happily dive with you if you can carry your own gas, we can agree a ascent profile and you can do 5-6h midwater deco (not hanging on smb). Strangely enough I only seem to see JJ's and rb80s where I dive.

Thanks for replying. I don't think I asked you to post your deco profile and I can understand why you would not want to. Purely from a decompression theory viewpoint it would be great if you could clear up the ambiguity surrounding your 85 meter dive. Perhaps just a simple yes or no to the following question: was the 80 minutes bottom time spent completely at the 85 meters as on a wreck dive scenario or was it done in a cave that bottomed out at 85M as someone suggested as a possibility. As I don't know you I'll politely decline your offer of a 5-6 hr dive !


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gobfish1
24-09-2016, 06:11 PM
If you never seen a KISS you may need to
visit SpecSavers, I was diving one on the
same boat as you in Malin :)

he pro thought you were the hired help , hence would not have given you a second glance as you waited on him .

sorry to hear you missed your big dive due to bad weather ,

gobfish1
24-09-2016, 06:24 PM
how did we get from noddy dive units to 7hr gueeeeeeeeeeeee Antics

noddy unit would be a better read im thinking , leave the fat kid alone 7hr or 10hr who gives a fuck ,

Barrygoss
24-09-2016, 06:37 PM
If you never seen a KISS you may need to
visit SpecSavers, I was diving one on the
same boat as you in Malin :)

And me out of Salcombe ;) although he was on the other boat

B

Baron015
24-09-2016, 06:41 PM
If you never seen a KISS you may need to
visit SpecSavers, I was diving one on the
same boat as you in Malin :)

Yes but you're putting a dent in my story Cap'n !


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Capt Morgan
24-09-2016, 06:54 PM
sorry to hear you missed your big dive due to bad weather ,

Just hoping for better luck next year ;)

Janos
24-09-2016, 06:56 PM
I dived a KISS for four years, both for cave diving and open water. All things being equal it is not the unit I would now choose for deep diving. It wins for resilience and maintainability in certain environments but for performance it is a long way behind what you can get for not much more money.

I'd agree with all of that. I think the JJ is the 21st century Kiss.

Janos

Craig107
24-09-2016, 07:52 PM
A clasic case of over nailing a piechttp://4thelement-diving.co.uk/collections/aqualung-bcdse of dive equipment. Several of you on here seem to have forgoten the first time you got in a pool and breathed OC under water.
Ive personally gleaned lots of information from some of you guys, this has helped me, along with my training, to become a "better" diver.
Slating a piece of equipment because its not as expensive or adaptable as yours is pure childish.
Some of us. I'll repeat. Some of us, come on here for the Criac and to glean some knowledge, from your experiences.
It occurs to me several of you, had this unit been around many years ago, would of seen this as an intermediate step to CC, having come from a single cylinder, (Remember), moving on to a cylinder and pony, then to twins and so forth.
Please try to remember, no matter what agency you came from, some of us follow the path of progression. Single, single and pony, single with side slung, twins....... you get the picture.
Try to remember, this forum goes world wide. Not just in your small, sometimes, insignificant musings.

Apologies if offence is taken. Some need to realise we often use your advice/ knowledge, to hear/ read you slating a piece of obtainable equipment is, in my opinion, disrespectful.
Its true. You dont read/hear about GUE doing this.

Craig

notdeadyet
24-09-2016, 08:46 PM
I'll caveat this by saying I've taken a lot of painkillers tonight and diving tomorrow looks out the window...

The rebreather in question is a piece of crap. Not because it is not expensive enough, it's original price was more than I paid for either of my rebreathers. Or because it is not "adaptable". If, by adaptable, you mean that it can be used for more than what a single cylinder of nitrox could be used for.

It is not a step in anyone's progression. The only thing you could learn from owning this piece of shit is how important due diligence is in saving yourself many thousands of pounds on a dead end created by a company that has produced nothing but dead ends.

I'm not sure what the point of your post is. It seems to read like you are suggesting that people who know about rebreather diving should change their opinions because it might influence people who don't know about rebreather diving out of buying one. If someone who was considering buying it is now considering buying something else then great. An early Christmas miracle.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

Darren A
24-09-2016, 08:48 PM
I'm not sure what the point of your post is.

Thats twice you've written something like that, and not quoted what/who you are talking about :)

Capt Morgan
24-09-2016, 08:59 PM
Thats twice you've written something like that, and not quoted what/who you are talking about :)

I must be a genius, I worked it out 😁

dwhitlow
24-09-2016, 09:06 PM
I must be a genius, I worked it out ��

Me too! Great isn't it :)

Capt Morgan
24-09-2016, 09:11 PM
Me too! Great isn't it :)

It's nice to be special ;)

ebt
24-09-2016, 09:17 PM
Some need to realise we often use your advice/ knowledge, to hear/ read you slating a piece of obtainable equipment is, in my opinion, disrespectful.

You say that like it matters? Its all just opinions, they're worth what you paid for them.

My opinion is that the storm trooper unit gives minimal benefit over OC, whilst adding considerable complexity and risk. Its like someone took a draeger, draped it in tinsel and added an iphone in to control it.

Darren A
24-09-2016, 09:18 PM
Fairy nuff :)

Baron015
25-09-2016, 05:33 PM
A clasic case of over nailing a piechttp://4thelement-diving.co.uk/collections/aqualung-bcdse of dive equipment. Several of you on here seem to have forgoten the first time you got in a pool and breathed OC under water.
Ive personally gleaned lots of information from some of you guys, this has helped me, along with my training, to become a "better" diver.
Slating a piece of equipment because its not as expensive or adaptable as yours is pure childish.
Some of us. I'll repeat. Some of us, come on here for the Criac and to glean some knowledge, from your experiences.
It occurs to me several of you, had this unit been around many years ago, would of seen this as an intermediate step to CC, having come from a single cylinder, (Remember), moving on to a cylinder and pony, then to twins and so forth.
Please try to remember, no matter what agency you came from, some of us follow the path of progression. Single, single and pony, single with side slung, twins....... you get the picture.
Try to remember, this forum goes world wide. Not just in your small, sometimes, insignificant musings.

Apologies if offence is taken. Some need to realise we often use your advice/ knowledge, to hear/ read you slating a piece of obtainable equipment is, in my opinion, disrespectful.
Its true. You dont read/hear about GUE doing this.

Craig

Pony of death. Skip that step. And also the recreational electronic semi-closed step. You can skip that too.


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WFO
25-09-2016, 07:45 PM
It occurs to me several of you, had this unit been around many years ago, would of seen this as an intermediate step to CC, having come from a single cylinder, (Remember), moving on to a cylinder and pony, then to twins and so forth.

Apologies if offence is taken. Some need to realise we often use your advice/ knowledge, to hear/ read you slating a piece of obtainable equipment is, in my opinion, disrespectful.
Its true. You dont read/hear about GUE doing this.

Craig

First bit I disagree with you, years ago maybe yeah if you were going CCR then getting some hours in on a cheap, simple, available unit like a draeger or something would have been a good idea... but a draeger or something you need to fly it, you need to understand it, it's a simple unit not a load of fucking iphone overcomplicated shite that wipes your arse for you and that's the point. I don't dislike this stormtrooper thing because it's cheap, I dislike it because it's an overcomplicated piece of shit and that sort of attitude makes for tech-dependent divers not competent ones. I disagree with the very premise of the unit and the cynical marketing-led bullshit munching that spawned it.

If that is disrespectful then "fuck it", respect is earned, can't say I've ever been too worried about bending the feelings of instructors, agencies, gas suppliers, dive shops etc. I built a fully closed unit with an 8lb radial scrubber bov inline deco etc for less than a grand, it's not about the money at all. No snobbery here about the price.... you'd do a lot better buying a secondhand classic for same price.

You saying people should be all la-di-da about giving advice and knowledge? Like the DIR lot are? .... ROFL.... can we go find some GI3 quotes to show some true caring and understanding...

Janos
25-09-2016, 09:55 PM
A clasic case of over nailing a piechttp://4thelement-diving.co.uk/collections/aqualung-bcdse of dive equipment. Several of you on here seem to have forgoten the first time you got in a pool and breathed OC under water.
Ive personally gleaned lots of information from some of you guys, this has helped me, along with my training, to become a "better" diver.
Slating a piece of equipment because its not as expensive or adaptable as yours is pure childish.
Some of us. I'll repeat. Some of us, come on here for the Criac and to glean some knowledge, from your experiences.
It occurs to me several of you, had this unit been around many years ago, would of seen this as an intermediate step to CC, having come from a single cylinder, (Remember), moving on to a cylinder and pony, then to twins and so forth.
Please try to remember, no matter what agency you came from, some of us follow the path of progression. Single, single and pony, single with side slung, twins....... you get the picture.

IMHO this rebreather isn't a progressive step towards anything, neither is it a viable end in itself. So what's the point of it?

If you want a progressive step then my advice to anyone thinking about CCR is to get a cheap unit (say an inspo classic for ~1k) dive it for a year, and if you decide CCR is not for you then you've lost the cost of your training. Alternatively, if you know where you're going to end up and have the cash to spare then buy that unit.


Apologies if offence is taken. Some need to realise we often use your advice/ knowledge, to hear/ read you slating a piece of obtainable equipment is, in my opinion, disrespectful.
Its true. You dont read/hear about GUE doing this.

Hmmm. Best ask Team Foxturd where their name came from!

Janos

Janos
25-09-2016, 10:00 PM
Its true. You dont read/hear about GUE doing this.

Oh, and the bit about Inspirations needing to be sold with a shovel. I'd forgotten about that!

That said. I do admire GUE / DIR for having the courage of their convictions. If they believed a piece of kit was crap or worse dangerous, then they'd say so, and I like that.

Janos

Barrygoss
25-09-2016, 10:04 PM
Oh, and the bit about Inspirations needing to be sold with a shovel. I'd forgotten about that!

Janos

You're quoting GI3 stuff, that's the old DIR, not the new GUE.
It's a rebranding, a bit like BSAC saying they now accept HOG loop or support members in trouble ;)
The past is the past, if you want to keep raking over it, you need to be innocent ;)
But the Hollis is still a pile of shit, all the CCR risks and none of the benefits.

B

jturner
26-09-2016, 08:39 AM
But the Hollis is still a pile of shit, all the CCR risks and none of the benefits.

It has a good BOV apparently. Some people have been trying to retrofit them to other CCRs, so I guess it did bring something of worth to the market place, albeit with a strange and over-complicated SCR attached.

Garf
26-09-2016, 08:51 AM
Hmmm. Best ask Team Foxturd where their name came from!

Janos

Janos the quote we took our name from was from something said about 20 years ago. We referenced it in humour (about 9 years ago!), which most people seem to get.

GUE moved on a long time ago. Perhaps you should consider doing the same?

graham_hk
26-09-2016, 09:10 AM
...

Ian_6301
26-09-2016, 09:26 AM
No no how could anybody move on? Afterall, I heard the nasty man from the internet was rude to somebody my auntie's third cousin's next door neighbour once knew

And was ginger and didn't do "enough" deco and then told everyone about it in a cryptic way on TDF...

look, I missed Friday, ok...?

graham_hk
26-09-2016, 09:31 AM
...

Ian_6301
26-09-2016, 09:37 AM
Didn't do enough deco would've put me in chamber ... clearly I did enough!

A very astute observation on the nature of deco and what is "enough".

Rather you than me though, pal!

notdeadyet
26-09-2016, 09:43 AM
No no how could anybody move on? Afterall, I heard the nasty man from the internet was rude to somebody my auntie's third cousin's next door neighbour once knew
Obviously tdf needs a safe space policy or a longer fuse on their tampons.

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bottle maker
26-09-2016, 10:41 AM
Janos the quote we took our name from was from something said about 20 years ago. We referenced it in humour (about 9 years ago!), which most people seem to get.

GUE moved on a long time ago. Perhaps you should consider doing the same?

Thought Janos made a light hearted reply I can not speak for him but I did not take it as a dig at any one. For interest what is the references about.

Graham

Tunicates
26-09-2016, 12:12 PM
Thought Janos made a light hearted reply I can not speak for him but I did not take it as a dig at any one. For interest what is the references about.

Graham

Seems to be explained here.... http://www.direxplorers.com/showthread.php?t=1106

Some dude tried selling a drysuit on an email group, and GI3 likened it to having a bag of fox shit to sell. There seem to have been other fox shit references made by the man - a bit of an odd obsession but each to his own. :)



Quote Originally Posted by DIRQuest
> [Original Message]
> From: George Irvine
> To: <quest@***.com>; <******@earthlink.net>
> Date: 8/13/2002 9:17:49 PM
> Subject: RE: drysuit, large
>
> I just found an excellent turd in my yard - looks like a fox turd. Before
I
> put this on Ebay, do any of you want it? ($4.00) Will trade for White's
> drysuit.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: *******
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 4:50 PM
> To: Quest
> Subject: FS: drysuit, large
>
>
> I do not know if it is permitted to post any For Sale items on quest; I
> suspect I will soon find out.
>
> For Sale: Excellent condition White's shell drysuit, bi-laminate
material.
> Excellent latex seals, tech-size bellows pockets glued and stitched on.
> Size large, see whitescoldwater.com for more information as to sizing,
etc.
>
> See ebay Item Number: 1848592612 for photos, etc. Price: $400

graham_hk
26-09-2016, 12:25 PM
...

notdeadyet
26-09-2016, 12:28 PM
Seems to be explained here.... http://www.direxplorers.com/showthread.php?t=1106

Some dude tried selling a drysuit on an email group, and GI3 likened it to having a bag of fox shit to sell. There seem to have been other fox shit references made by the man - a bit of an odd obsession but each to his own. :)



Oh the irony. I bought a drysuit on Ebay a few years ago from GI3. Got an email a couple of days later, after he'd spent 48 hours not replying to mine about how he wanted paid, to say he'd had a better offer elsewhere. Must've run out of turds. Cock.

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Paulo
26-09-2016, 12:43 PM
Oh the irony. I bought a drysuit on Ebay a few years ago from GI3. Got an email a couple of days later, after he'd spent 48 hours not replying to mine about how he wanted paid, to say he'd had a better offer elsewhere. Must've run out of turds. Cock.

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Wouldnt the neck have been too big for you in order to get it over his swelled head?

cathal
26-09-2016, 12:55 PM
Since I didn't get decompression sickness how else would you suggest I define what deco is enough?
As an observation, I have learned of two tech divers in the last 2 years diagnosed with Dysbaric Osteonecrosis (DONS). One has stopped diving and I'm not sure whether the other still dives. As this condition was diagnosed after the event, it therefore cannot be pinned down to one specific dive or series of dives. The efficacy of how we decompress atm and what exactly works in the long term for us to the best of my knowledge has not been properly defined or established i.e. I don't know if in 5 years time the GF settings that I currently use (50/70) may or may not lead to a diagnosis of DONS.
So just because we get out of the water not bent does not necessarily mean that we are not doing damage to ourselves in the long term.

Ian_6301
26-09-2016, 12:59 PM
As a team we planned the deco made some pragmatic changes like extending gas switches (for RB80 divers) and linearising certain sections and we then followed the plan (which as I said the dive computer doesn't like). Since I didn't get decompression sickness how else would you suggest I define what deco is enough?

Exactly. Not trying to pick holes mate. Just pointing out that deco is an inexact science.

Enough deco is a retrospective diagnosis.

I suspect that the region of the tables/algorithms in which you guys were diving is one of those where there is less data and perhaps the mathematical model doesn't fit the empirical results.

Bearing in mind that you in particular seem to be spending a lot of time doing these sorts of dives, is there any mileage in ploughing some of your data and that of your team mates into some formal deco research?

By the sounds of it, you guys have a system that seems to work in terms of not bending people despite being significantly more "aggressive" than straight buhlmann for this sort of dive. I can understand why you don't want to discuss it in open forum, in case there's a monkey see / monkey do incident and your position sets you up as a target for litigation.

But there is clearly real value there and a proper scientific study or at least a bank of data to enable others to do the maths would be a huge step forward for the technical / scientific diving community and, less altruistically, possibly quite profitable....

graham_hk
26-09-2016, 01:19 PM
...

notdeadyet
26-09-2016, 01:33 PM
(Stuart's poke at GUE ccr for example).

Fucking hell, someone else called you ginger and you let that one slip past on the quiet.

Anyway, I wasn't taking the piss out of GUE ccr. Never mentioned it. I was alluding more to GUE's love of decoing on 50% at 6m compared to doing deco on Gurr's box of shit at 6m as a means of making diving more expensive/tedious.

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graham_hk
26-09-2016, 01:45 PM
...

ebt
26-09-2016, 01:54 PM
He got a pm :)

Ten Dollah? ;) (Ive nothing constructive to add, you might've noticed)

graham_hk
26-09-2016, 02:29 PM
...

nigel hewitt
26-09-2016, 02:38 PM
It wasn't GI3 that was the problem on the web back then, it was the GI3 wannabes.
They had the insulting style off pat but knew less than I did.
You could disagree with George but at least if you filtered it he was saying something.

Ian_6301
26-09-2016, 03:47 PM
He got a pm :)

As did you...

cathal
26-09-2016, 03:53 PM
All true and valid - but who is to say what is right and wrong? Is it the computer I should trust or the dive plan? Which decompression model should I follow and if choosing a dissolved gas model what gf should I set? Who should I consult? Should I trust somebody I have never met on a dive forum or forum warriors with 1000s of likes or divers doing entry level/short bottom time tech dives.

Good points. I thought Dr Dolette had it right regarding decompression when he said that spending extra time on shallow deco is a cheap form of dive insurance. Purely subjective with a cohort of one (me) twice this year I had to do extra time at 6M due to staying on the deco bar with the last diver. Both times were for a period of about an extra 30-40 minutes on top of my own TTS. I had no issue doing it, I had a heated vest and I was plumbed in but the thing is this, after each dive I felt absolutely amazing, full of energy. So whats to conclude, maybe don't rush in the shallows, its not a race, stay at 3 or 6M for an extra 10-15 minutes, who knows it might prevent DONS in the long term and even if it doesn't at least your erring on the right side.

gobfish1
26-09-2016, 05:42 PM
All true and valid - but who is to say what is right and wrong? Is it the computer I should trust or the dive plan? Which decompression model should I follow and if choosing a dissolved gas model what gf should I set? Who should I consult? Should I trust somebody I have never met on a dive forum or forum warriors with 1000s of likes or divers doing entry level/short bottom time tech dives.

Clearly it's a minefield and I do not make the decisions I make diving lightly or ill informed. Yes I have fed trolls with a post or two but hardly unprovoked (Stuart's poke at GUE ccr for example). I can't win really either I am not doing the dives or I am boasting or what I am doing is unsafe. Somebody with a chip on their shoulder even suggested that I was a dive god as an insult :)

If you know of others doing more than hour bottom times at reasonable depth I'd love to hear from them and share knowledge.

your sounding just like that other well known c6nt that used to post on the interweb , but your lacking his witt and repartee

Smiler
26-09-2016, 06:38 PM
Seems to be explained here.... http://www.direxplorers.com/showthread.php?t=1106

Some dude tried selling a drysuit on an email group, and GI3 likened it to having a bag of fox shit to sell. There seem to have been other fox shit references made by the man - a bit of an odd obsession but each to his own. :)

Plenty of fox shit here https://www.facebook.com/LADbible/videos/2922438457803325/


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Janos
26-09-2016, 10:01 PM
Janos the quote we took our name from was from something said about 20 years ago. We referenced it in humour (about 9 years ago!), which most people seem to get.

GUE moved on a long time ago. Perhaps you should consider doing the same?

Sorry! Didn't mean it like that. It is/was a great name for a team.
One of the things I liked about George was that he had the courage of convictions. I may disagree with some of his views, but I liked the way he didn't sit on the fence. If he thought a piece of kit was (literally) worth shit he'd say so. I recall there was a time when he really laid into someone for trying to sell some crap (in his view) on the list.

Janos

Janos
26-09-2016, 10:02 PM
As an observation, I have learned of two tech divers in the last 2 years diagnosed with Dysbaric Osteonecrosis (DONS). One has stopped diving and I'm not sure whether the other still dives. As this condition was diagnosed after the event, it therefore cannot be pinned down to one specific dive or series of dives. The efficacy of how we decompress atm and what exactly works in the long term for us to the best of my knowledge has not been properly defined or established i.e. I don't know if in 5 years time the GF settings that I currently use (50/70) may or may not lead to a diagnosis of DONS.
So just because we get out of the water not bent does not necessarily mean that we are not doing damage to ourselves in the long term.

Agree 100%.
It's hard to know the long term consequences of doing deco, so I prefer to do an extra 15 mins or so and err on the side of caution. If I'm wrong and it turns out I've been doing too much deco, then so it goes. I'd rather that then the alternative.

Janos