Prepared to be shot down here but...?

[Pete Bullen]

So I was wondering, I live and dive on Gozo, shore entries/exits and scramble over rocks is the norm, boat dives the exception, so mostly I think that a rebreather plus bailout is overkill for the sort of mostly recreational depth dives we do but maybe there is a way to make them practical for me.

In my uneducated world keeping it simple is the way forward and most of the time OC works fine for me, good dive skills get me close to the fish most of the time but there is no escaping the fact that once in a while if I wasn't blowing bubbles I could either get closer or stay closer for longer, I'm also keen to avoid the weight issues of full size bailout plus unit.

So is there a unit that I could dive with say a couple of 5l bottles,, dil and O2 with a BOV such that I could dive it alpinist or is the CO2 hit too high a risk?
Would I be better off with a unit with 2 x 3l bottles and maybe a 5l slung underneath as a bailout?

I want to avoid adding the 12ltr bailout hung as a stage, if I was going to do that I'd be just as well off just diving a 12lt single OC.

I want something with a HUD, I mostly dive with a camera so a visual indicator of status is important, and that I can build up hours/dives fast, remember I dive a lot, 350 to 450 dives a year so getting hours on a unit isn't an issue. I need it to be reliable, easily managed and flown and I don't want it to break the bank either?

I've done a couple of try dives on different units but curious to see what the "experts" armchair or real world, have to say. :D

[jamesp]

Draeger?
They used to be popular with fish botherers.

[Pete Bullen]

Draeger?
They used to be popular with fish botherers.

Yeah I was wondering about SC too but don't know enough about them :)

[DiverMike]

An inspo in a frame or a JJ. Unless you are doing deco you'll not need a 5l of O2. Or if you are doing no deco dives and don't mind filling the 3L cylinder for every dive an inspo with a BOV will give you access to your on board gas (you'll be no use for your buddy though) and you have the best part of 550l of air to get you to the surface. Couple that with a reg on the O2 side and depending on what they fill O2 over there you have a few hundred more L of O2 for your safety stop at 6.
If you want to be a good buddy (as a photographer??) depending on the depths a 3l or 5l cylinder side slung or case mounted will provide more gas for your bail out (meaning you can get a days diving or possibly a weekends out of your 3l dill cylinder) and a gas source for your buddy.

[fibre]

Yeah I was wondering about SC too but don't know enough about them :)

The Draeger still blows bubbles - ok, not as much as OC but its not particularly silent. The diffuser helps with this.Best part though is no electronics and basic mechanics so it takes a lot of abuse.

I used to dive alpinist on my draeger (and run with mixes outside of the set jets) until I did a hard surface swim against a current. In general, as long as you can hear hissing, its usually good but in this case the jet couldnt keep up with the breathing rate and the O2 level in the bag dropped to 14% before I bailed. My wireless aladin was my saviour and I was still on surface so I just dropped the mouthpiece. After that I always used a 3l on the side as bail out.

Nowdays I never dive with out a side tin. If you went CC with a JJ or an inspo with gbox, you could fit what tanks you like on the sides and use OCB off the dil but that would be bulky

[ebt]

drager spares are a sod nowadays, although tecme still have some. On the bright side that does mean you can pick them up for pennies ;) There are quite a few sidemount ccr's/scr's now if you're set on the idea.

Personally I wouldnt dive any ccr without bailout, especially for shore diving where when it goes wrong you might need to put in a lot of effort suddenly.

[MrPOman]

"In my uneducated world keeping it simple is the way forward and most of the time OC works fine for me, good dive skills get me close to the fish most of the time but there is no escaping the fact that once in a while if I wasn't blowing bubbles I could either get closer or stay closer for longer, ."

What fish
Is this the same Gozo thats in the Med

MrP

[Paul Evans]

Personally I wouldn't dive any ccr without bailout, especially for shore diving where when it goes wrong you might need to put in a lot of effort suddenly.

What Zac says, there are some really hrmmm..... Awkward :nod: entries and exits where lots of effort can be de-rigueur........ :sweat:

On the other hand there a lots of dives that are perfectly suited to a unit and I would have no dubot would make your photography even more rewarding. I think its a case of the right tool for the job on the right site in the right conditions......

Personally a unit with a Al40 or a 7 pulled in tight would work? Pathfinder with two 3's and a 40 slung would be my choice for Gozo.

http://www.megccr.com/rebreather-products/pathfinder-rebreather/

Not cheap :( But small and perfectly formed :rolleyes:

[String]

Id first ask what you want your bailout FOR (no, put the pitchforks down....).
Do you want a bailout that would allow you to perform the ENTIRE dive on open circuit assuming a unit failure right at the start of the dive? Or do you want a bailout to get you 15-20 mins or so gas to finish an already started dive and then surface?
If its the former then you'll never with with a rebreather.
If its the latter that's what i do. Assuming we're talking recreational profiles here with non deco dives and a sensible SAC rate an AL40 / 7l stage will work. I can easily do most of the dive (if not all of it) on a 40 if needed. The once ive had to bail with 10 people following me the 35 mins or so of dive remaining were easily accomplished on my AL40 which is light tucks up out of the way and unobtrusive. If its a more serious issue like a CO2 hit a 40 is still going to have more than enough gas to get you to the surface from recreational depths on a no-deco profile. A 3l or so in my view certainly wouldn't.

In reality a bailout on a tame recreational dive is a rare event - probably not a lot higher chance than a random OC gear fail so its not like its going to happen a lot (or shouldn't at least).

As for units, id say forget SCR. They still bubble, you don't get any NDL benefits over a proper nitrox mix, you have 1 big inboard tank AND still have to carry a bailout. The ghostbuster hollis units we see are horrible. CCR units if you want small and easy to clamber over rocks avoid some of the beasts like full size megs, JJs, inspos etc. Something with 2l tanks and a small scrubber is fine. The Evo, micro rEvos or similar will do the job in a neat small package and still be good for 4 hours or so warm water diving.

CCRs are great and awful for photography in my world. Yes no bubbles, you can lurk for ages, massively extended NDLs etc. But not being able to use lung control to fine tune buoyancy to frame a shot and adjust angles takes a LOT of getting used to. I do tend to cheat and use the ADV and nose venting at times to do this.

As for a HUD i find my vision HUD obtrusive when i have the camera. The thing gets in the way of my eyepiece when im trying to look through it so quite often ive got the thing rotated down out of the way and just get into the habit of checking the handsets after a sequence of shots. Each to his own though. A bigger person/smaller counterlungs or different design may help that.

[MikeF]

Scrambling over rocks and shore and down to 60m mostly no stop or limited deco it has to be a pathfinder with say a 4 or 5l bailout. Or a JJ.

Inspo is a good unit but big and heavy in comparison.

[Pete Bullen]

Cheers String, some good points, bailout would be to get me back to the surface safely, I wouldn't expect to continue the dive and with a SAC of around 7 (when working reasonably hard, not fighting a current), I'm as good on air as the best of my clients who in the main are on OC anyway. If it was a planned deco dive I'd approach the whole bailout aspect very differently but equally it would probably be off a boat anyway so weight and bulk would be less of an issue.

Your point re fine tuning buoyancy is one I hadn't thought of, on OC I can be in any position and instinctively know when and how much to breathe in or out to make micro adjustments and I think, now, that I would hate that aspect of it on CC.

4hrs would be plenty, it's rare I do more than two dives/day and would be back at the DC and able to top up/change lime etc if I was planning a 3rd dive anyway.

One of the reasons I'm keen on no/small bailout is to avoid the time it takes to ferry stages etc back and forward as well as carrying the unit and I don't want to drag a unit plus fairly heavy stage up and down to the Blue Hole twice a day in 40c+ heat August, it's hard enough with a heavy 12l :)

And YES MrPOman there are plenty of fish in Gozo, you just need to know the island and have the right dive skills. If you can't see them then I suggest looking inwards mate.

One of the things that made me reconsider this whole subject is a night dive I did a couple of days ago, I found a shoal of baby squid, which are always shy and easily spooked, every time I got close to them at the slightest exhale they scattered and I then had to spend another 15 minutes searching for them again, took me 75 minutes to get two shots of the little sods :)

Paul if it looked like I might have to work hard to get out I wouldn't get in :) My 3 stages of risk assessment are, 1. Can I get out safely in these conditions? 2. Can I get my clients out safely in these conditions? 3. Can we get our cameras out safely in these conditions? Carrying 10 grand plus of camera and maybe needing one hand for it tends to make you even more cautious. :)

[String]

From the above a 5l or AL40 sounds more than sufficient. Light as hell, no issue to drag across rocks. CCR isnt a holy grail of marine life interraction - bubbles or not you're still a big, strange object making some odd noises and some strange electrical impulses. Simply being there can spook some fish (they can see you!) although i admit bubbles are a large part. The main advantage i find is being able to lurk at whatever depth for ages with no worry about gas consumption. I still scare marine life off by simply existing in their area or by flailing around wildly next to them (im not that good on a rebreather...).

rEvo micro or Evo with travel frame sounds a sane choice.

[Pete Bullen]

rEvo micro or Evo with travel frame sounds a sane choice.

As it happens I've already pinged Simon on FB :)

[drysuitdiver]

get a rebreath...... Oh . ah um .... :)

[Tewdric]

If I retire to Gozo (which is a slight possibility) I'd be on a trimix Inspo or JJ before you could say credit card bill. 7 and 11l stages depending on the dive natch.

[gobfish1]

id be happy with 3l s or 4l cylinders and keep my deco times to the 6m stop ,

you need to be able to dive them oc or ccr , if you can get your self back to 6m a 3l of o2 will last you a long time , even with 50 bar out of it your looking at about 40 mins if you can keep that sac of 7 going , co2 risk yes , but hay if you want to cover that one your boat diving and your boat will need a lift lol ,



did a weeks diving the red sea on a baby ybod 2l cylinders , and played at bailing out from 32m on the 2l cylinders no problem .
just dont hang about , lol none of that deep stop bollocs

[Baron015]

I always use an Ali40 when diving no stop at recreational depths, usually with 32% in it. I would consider a 3L adequate for some dives.

No need for a 12L unless you need the gas volume for bail out. Some dives you could do semi-alpinist as you can bail out to onboard dil with a BOV or second stage fitted (some failures more complex than others).

Alpinist is not for me but some people do it. Must be confident of a bail out CESA. Not for me thanks.

A JJ is nice unit and quite light but a Pathfinder is even smaller and lighter.


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[Craig107]

What about the Explorer sport with a three bail out.
Cheap enough. Quiet and will cover what you want Pete.

Before you "breeva" chaps/chapesses chirp. He's looking at tog not the abyss with a two day stop in the middle of nowhere ��

[iamyourgasman]

Ok I'm biased as I dive a rEvo, but somebody else already said it: a micro FT titanium, with a NERD and an AL40 would get you very close to wildlife, wouldn't be bigger profile than an OC rig and would take you safely home without breaking your back. There are sensibly priced 2nd hand units on the market nowadays. The other one I'd consider is a JJ again with a NERD controller. Slightly better flood recovery, but you lose out on the very clever safety design of the dual rEvo scrubber. And it is bigger and heavier than a micro FT, so scrambling to shore might be more difficult. Getting training and JJ buddies would be easier in Malta as many instructors are taking their students there.

[Dave1w]

For just about the simplest, lightest unit, have a look at the Kiss Spirit LTE. Uses a single 2 litre O2 bottle slung across the bottom, then a combined bailout / Dil bottle under your arm. It weighs about the same as an Al80 and BC when diving in warm water, travels very well. Not great flood recovery, but a good BOV, and you'll be carrying bailout.

It was kind of the replacement for the Sport Kiss, and is much better than that. When set up right breathes pretty well, about as good as a classic kiss. Can get it with nerd or HUD. A few folk in the US have done silly dives on them, but it's more than OK for regular 30/40m stuff. Not expensive either.





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[notdeadyet]

A few points off the top of my head...

No matter what your sac is if you need to bail then everything is out the window. Even when the physiological symptoms are past there is still the psychological. Getting your shit together again after a co2 hit is major. In 22 years of diving both of mine are the incidents where I felt I really had almost died out of all my near misses (and there's been a lot).

Just for some perspective, my sac is about 10-12. On a hit at 20'ish metres I turned a 7 inside out in minutes. A 3, even a 5, is inadequate beyond standing up depths.

That said, I dive <40 and no/minimal deco without much bailout. I have a 3 of air for my suit also connected to my bov and that's it. I can get from 40 and do a few min of stops on it (done it a couple of times for real) for non-co2 bailouts. I gamble on my scrubber being fairly resilient and avoiding exertion. You can dive minimal/alpinist as long as you accept it is a big compromise.

For shore diving where you have a particular exit you need to get back to, especially somewhere you cannot just walk up a beach, having some spare air near the surface is handy. Arguably, rebreathers are most dangerous at or near the surface.

I wouldn't touch a Draeger. They are beautifully made but spares are getting hard to come by. They are finnicky in use too, scr needs a lot more care than ccr. There aren't any other scrs I'd touch. I think most manufacturers have realised it is a dead technology for recreational diving. Rays are nice and light but the scrubber is way too small, mine broke through around the 60 min mark at best.

I'm not up on current rebreathers (mine is 35 years old) but I'd guess something small and light is going to need weight to sink it. Something bigger on a steel plate or frame less so. Size and weight are not necessarily good indicators.

rEvos scrubber system always appealed and Simon TW is a damn great dude. But that's based entirely on people I know with rEvos and getting pissed a couple of times with Simon :)

Alpinist diving has fallen out of favour and people don't like talking about it because there has always been a bit of a pc backlash against it. The old NW Designs rb list archive has some good info. Rich Pyle has written a lot about diving with very little bailout too if you can find any of his stuff still on the web.

To be honest, if I could do 90% of my diving on a twinset of nitrox for the same size and weight as a rb I probably wouldn't own a box.

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[Ken]

As a special treat, next month you can walk my JJ and bailout to the water until you get bored of it... :)

[Pete Bullen]

As a special treat, next month you can walk my JJ and bailout to the water until you get bored of it... :)

Haha... That's so kind of you... you can carry your kit own mate :)

[Garspeed]

I would go for JJ or Pathfinder and run standard 3 litre on board tins, single side slung of 3 litre of 28% for bailout tin (as long as not going too deep / long) and then ensure you can also access your on board O2 using your BOV so you can suck up what's left of your O2 for deco gas if the brown stuff hits the spinny thing

[cathal]

rEvo Micro Titanium, about the same weight as a 15L. Also with the RMS and the shallow diving you'd save an absolute fortune on sorb!

[Mark Chase]

It doesent matter which unit you g for as the weight of the unit will be + the lead neaded to sink it.

I havent dived many of the latest units but personaly found the JJ to be the one needing the least lead.

In Gozo diveing with you a few years ago the JJ Ali back plate and 0 lead were perfict with a 5mm wet suit (more like 3mm as its THAT old)

I took a full single tank rig with me on that trip to Gozo but dident use it once I simply PREFERED to freedom and flexabuility of the JJ

At pinical rock we poped down to 50 to have a look arround and on the tri wrecks we did one then swam off to find another. On the El Faroud we did a 90min bottom time just because we felt like it and no way would we have shore dived the Arch on a single 12.

I carried an Ali 80 bailout every dive but I knew Howard and I would be going off piest and deeper. If you do 30m no deco stuff then stick a reg on inboard dill and 02 & you have enough bailout to get to the surface assuming you started with a decent dill fill

Persoanly Id carry an off board even if its a 3 or Al40 I just dont find it a problem

PSCR SCR??? dot bother. Few advantages and all the disadvantages IMHO

I keep thinking about OC diveing again but even doing single tank holiday stuff I find my self wishing I could have the freedom CCR offers and TBH I just dont enjoy twinset diveing any more. The whole gas filling thing drives me nuts but I know that wouldnt be such an issue for you.

PS: If considering a rEvo the ONLY one id go for if planing on diveing a wet suit is the Micro. The mini I had was just too heavy for wet suit diveing. Aside from that its an awsum bit of kit.


You were with us so you know the whole " time it takes to prep and kit up" thing is rubbish The only thing ith CCR is its a bit like starting again and for an experianced diver like you that can be very anoying

However when I first put on a dry suit I hated the way it screwed up my dive skills but a few dives later I wouldent be without one through choice

[bottle maker]

I have to disagree with don't need bale out down to thirty. I have had hypercapnia my sac was theoretically unachievable but I managed it. NYD appears to have had a.similar experience. What ever unit you.choose please.carry adequate bale.out and practice using it.


Graham

[notdeadyet]

I have to disagree with don't need bale out down to thirty. I have had hypercapnia my sac was theoretically unachievable but I managed it. NYD appears to have had a.similar experience. What ever unit you.choose please.carry adequate bale.out and practice using it.


Graham
A bit of a tangent but may be relevant, I actually thought my shallow co2 hit was worse than my deep one. Deep one was a bit huffy puffy breathing. Shallow, I sucked that 7 at a rate that I'd make someone a good wife one day.

I wondered if bailing from (and to) nitrox shallowish (can't recall where, maybe around 25m) was a worse situation than a relatively easier to breathe, helium rich dil at depth or if it was just bad luck.

Either way, being shallow doesn't make rebreathers safer or easier. There isn't much difference in the level of skill and attention between 10m or 100m.

I always remember Dave Cooper on Burgerworld describing a fairly horrific bail out in shallow water that he finished with "if the water is too deep to stand up in then I carry bail out". It stuck in my mind because there can't be many people as hardcore as Dave was and if he was saying that then it probably made sense.

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[gobfish1]

I have to disagree with don't need bale out down to thirty. I have had hypercapnia my sac was theoretically unachievable but I managed it. NYD appears to have had a.similar experience. What ever unit you.choose please.carry adequate bale.out and practice using it.


Graham

Dont think iv seen a post that says you dont need bail out , think its the word adequate we all end up Debating ,,

lots of THE Noddy type breather / Training Agencie,s think its ok to bail out to the drive gas,
whan it comes to selling crap units to new punters ,

so even two 3l cylinders would be twice as much bail out as most of the noddy units / divers get to bail out on , no o2 for them .

i did all my noddy1 training on inboard cylinder s only, and im v happy i did ,

[nigel hewitt]

i did all my noddy1 training on inboard cylinder s only, and im v happy i did ,
Ditto.

I switched to carrying everything but the kitchen sink on the Sentinel but I've reverted.
It destroys the whole point of the rebreather to carry more cylinders than BOC van.

[gobfish1]

6l of dill / bail out and 1l or 2l of 02 , ps a 1l cylinder will out last your scrubber ,

[WFO]

I'm not up on current rebreathers (mine is 35 years old) but I'd guess something small and light is going to need weight to sink it. Something bigger on a steel plate or frame less so. Size and weight are not necessarily good indicators.

Not really, it is about the dead volume of them inside rather than overall.

Jeff Keep who is on here has a lovely homebuild, smaller than a KISS, no dead volume inside so with the normal 3mm backplate you need no lead to dive it with a drysuit and it is absolutely lovely to use.


Also Chris Kennedy has some builds sort of along similar lines that are really compact and are well worth a look for this sort of diving, check him out if you are on facebook.

[Major Clanger]

I know three very well regarded professional underwater rebreather photographers/filmers that always seem to dive with a large camera strapped to them. One has a Poseidon, one has a meg and the other uses a JJ:

Rich Stevenson
Tony Baskeyfield
Marjo Tynkkyen

I'm sure any one of them would give you real-time user advice instead of the usual use a jj or use an Inspo blah.

[Pete Bullen]

I know three very well regarded professional underwater rebreather photographers/filmers that always seem to dive with a large camera strapped to them. One has a Poseidon, one has a meg and the other uses a JJ:

Rich Stevenson
Tony Baskeyfield
Marjo Tynkkyen

I'm sure any one of them would give you real-time user advice instead of the usual use a jj or use an Inspo blah.

Of the three I'm leaning towards the Poseidon. The Revo/mini would also do but since it's rare that I go below 40m the Meg and the JJ seem like overkill and the Poseidon looks like it's designed for exactly the kind of diving I do... oh well it may be an academic exercise anyway as the lucrative work I'd been offered for the winter may have gone sideways :(

[Major Clanger]

Of the three I'm leaning towards the Poseidon. The Revo/mini would also do but since it's rare that I go below 40m the Meg and the JJ seem like overkill and the Poseidon looks like it's designed for exactly the kind of diving I do... oh well it may be an academic exercise anyway as the lucrative work I'd been offered for the winter may have gone sideways :(

Tony (Poseidon) does articles and photos for BSAC as well as freelance stuff and a member of my club. I could get you his number for a chat if you'd like.







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[String]

Poseidon looks like it's designed for exactly the kind of diving I do... oh well it may be an academic exercise anyway as the lucrative work I'd been offered for the winter may have gone sideways :(

That depends if you want a black box that removes the brain from the equation and eliminates the ability to troubleshoot. Be prepared to not dive relatively often (and for very very expensive upgrades if you decide to go further on one). I know quite a few people that had and then sold Poseidons (6 not the 7).

[Darren A]

There's a sentinel going for a grand on another thread :)

[Pete Bullen]

There's a sentinel going for a grand on another thread :)

Have you seen my OP? The last thing I want is a ton weight of disco fridge sitting in a corner bleeping at me. :)

[Barrygoss]

Have you seen my OP? The last thing I want is a ton weight of disco fridge sitting in a corner bleeping at me. :)

I've got a kiss sport sat in the garage doing nothing.
17kg loaded and ready to dive.

Work out some way to get it to you and you can play with it on loan for a good while.

B
(It'll need cells and cylinder tests, but it has a BOV and Mk 2 displays)

[Dave1w]

I've got a kiss sport sat in the garage doing nothing.
17kg loaded and ready to dive.

Work out some way to get it to you and you can play with it on loan for a good while.

B
(It'll need cells and cylinder tests, but it has a BOV and Mk 2 displays)

As simple and light weight as they come, and great to start out on.

I always wondered why the term recreational rebreather was applied to the magic boxes like the Poseidon and Explorer, when the Sport Kiss is as simple as you can get.


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[Alby R]

That depends if you want a black box that removes the brain from the equation and eliminates the ability to troubleshoot. Be prepared to not dive relatively often (and for very very expensive upgrades if you decide to go further on one). I know quite a few people that had and then sold Poseidons (6 not the 7).

ditto, every one of these i have seen on dive trips has always been in bits trying to get the thing to work

alby

[nigel hewitt]

I always wondered why the term recreational rebreather was applied to the magic boxes like the Poseidon and Explorer, when the Sport Kiss is as simple as you can get.
I thought it was because it's an MCCR?
I wouldn't trust me to dive one.

[Dave1w]

I'd of thought with your other hobbies mCCR would your kind of thing


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[mark weaver]

Paul if it looked like I might have to work hard to get out I wouldn't get in :) My 3 stages of risk assessment are, 1. Can I get out safely in these conditions? 2. Can I get my clients out safely in these conditions? 3. Can we get our cameras out safely in these conditions? Carrying 10 grand plus of camera and maybe needing one hand for it tends to make you even more cautious. :)

ftfy

My 3 stages of risk assessment are,
1. Can I get out safely in these conditions?
2. Can i get my camera out safely in these conditions
2. Can I get my clients out safely in these conditions