Wreck mystery

[Rich Walker]

Lets talk about diving on a diving forum. Try it - could be fun.

I've been diving on a wreck now for the past few days, and it's a bit of a quandry. So who can shed some light?...

Things we know:

She has a 17m beam.
The bow and stern are missing.
Length of remaining wreck is approx 60m
Single screw - we think. The prop shaft tunnel is exposed and there is only one of them.
Glass lead-acid batteries found in the remains of the bridge
Compass has a makers plate (unreadable)
Electrical insulators around bridge area (10cm ish long)
Hold behind engine room full of gravel and rocks - surrounding seabed is white sand
Fire bricks in the engine room have marking BENWELL - this was a brick company in Newcastle so suggests a Tyne-built ship
There is a paravane lying on the seabed 2-3m from the hull at the stern end
Animal bones (small pig or cow) just off the stern end

Area - Northern Adriatic.

We spent 80 minutes on the wreck yesterday looking for clues, but it's becoming tricky now. What's our next step ? :)

Rich

[rivers]

Lets talk about diving on a diving forum. Try it - could be fun.

I've been diving on a wreck now for the past few days, and it's a bit of a quandry. So who can shed some light?...

Things we know:

She has a 17m beam.
The bow and stern are missing.
Length of remaining wreck is approx 60m
Single screw - we think. The prop shaft tunnel is exposed and there is only one of them.
Glass lead-acid batteries found in the remains of the bridge
Compass has a makers plate (unreadable)
Electrical insulators around bridge area (10cm ish long)
Hold behind engine room full of gravel and rocks - surrounding seabed is white sand
Fire bricks in the engine room have marking BENWELL - this was a brick company in Newcastle so suggests a Tyne-built ship
There is a paravane lying on the seabed 2-3m from the hull at the stern end
Animal bones (small pig or cow) just off the stern end

Area - Northern Adriatic.

We spent 80 minutes on the wreck yesterday looking for clues, but it's becoming tricky now. What's our next step ? :)

Rich

Look for the bell! I don't know. Does it look like the bow and stern were blown off? Possibly hit an iceberg? I've got nothing.

[nickb]

Possibly hit an iceberg?In the Northern Adriatic? 10000 years ago maybe.

[rivers]

In the Northern Adriatic? 10000 years ago maybe.

i'm being facetious

[nickb]

i'm being facetiousThe bell suggestion gave that away ;)

[dynarob]

I presume it's been salvaged as no engine/boilers/prop ?

Edit: obviously no prop if the bit at the back is missing !

[jturner]

The bow and stern are missing.

Missing as in cut off or torn/broken/blown off? Are they nearby waiting to be found or Gone (with a capital g!)?

[Ian_6301]

Makers' plates on boilers / engines would be my next move.

Alternatively, maker's plate, usually at the rear of the bridge?

Both would be brass.

Electrical insulators may be for HF comms antennas (wires). Radio shack normally aft of an above the bridge, probably in the vicinity of the insulators you describe. Might be able to find something in that region maybe? Probably all rusted out long ago though.

After that, you're in to the more long-shot details such as rivet pitch (between centres) on, say, boilers? Perhaps the specific layout of the deck furniture at the prow would have helped (anchor chains, winches, capstans, bollards, fairleads, etc.) but as you don't have these, I'd look for other readily accessible dimensions that you can get (in feet and inches) between identifiable features such as deck edge stanchions, bollards, etc. Preferably something that will be dimensioned on the plans and wouldn't have changed between build and sinking. Bollards and capstan type winches tend to stay put IME. Although stanchions themselves can have an annoying habit of being relocated over the years, fittings welded to/through the deck at the very edge where it meets the hull are usually left where they are, as this is a very structurally important area where you don't tend to muck about.

Armed with all of that lot, it's off to the National Archive or possibly to Lloyds, to look at registers of shipping and reports of wrecks / insurance claims I guess.

[edward]

If the stern is missing but you can see a prop tunnel, then that points to engine amidships. Type and cylinder measurements of the engine and type and number of boilers (if steam, of course) would help with any eventual lloyds list search. You can measure the cylinder diameter roughly by measuring the cylinder top diameter and deducting 4 times the 'centre of cover stud to edge' distance if getting in the engine is hard.

Builders plates are often in the engine room on a forward bulkhead so there and below is a potential search area. Boilers also sometimes have makers plates. If the boilers are something unusual like a water tube type (as per liberty ships) then that might narrow things down.

Batteries and insulators could be radio equipment if there isn't many of them. Radios were more common after 1930 or so.

Can you see a telemotor, helm or engine telegraph at all - they often have makers plates and the Donkin records still exist so a number could be diagnostic.

There is often two bells, one in the bows and one often in front of the bridge, so another potential search area.

All of this depends on how broke the wreck is I guess.

I am very jealous, sat here in my office! Good luck.

[ebt]

Paravanes were at the start of the century, ~1915.

Ian's approach is similar to mine...

[Ian_6301]

Paravanes were at the start of the century, ~1915.

Ian's approach is similar to mine...

Paravane on the seabed might not "belong" to this wreck. It's entirely possible that the wreck is earlier and that the paravane snagged on the wreck while attempting to sweep for mines / knock down the superstructure to reduce hazard to shipping.

Although knowing Rich, this is not going to be a shallow wreck...

[MikeF]

Lets talk about diving on a diving forum. Try it - could be fun.

I've been diving on a wreck now for the past few days, and it's a bit of a quandry. So who can shed some light?...

Things we know:

She has a 17m beam.
The bow and stern are missing.
Length of remaining wreck is approx 60m
Single screw - we think. The prop shaft tunnel is exposed and there is only one of them.
Glass lead-acid batteries found in the remains of the bridge
Compass has a makers plate (unreadable)
Electrical insulators around bridge area (10cm ish long)
Hold behind engine room full of gravel and rocks - surrounding seabed is white sand
Fire bricks in the engine room have marking BENWELL - this was a brick company in Newcastle so suggests a Tyne-built ship
There is a paravane lying on the seabed 2-3m from the hull at the stern end
Animal bones (small pig or cow) just off the stern end

Area - Northern Adriatic.

We spent 80 minutes on the wreck yesterday looking for clues, but it's becoming tricky now. What's our next step ? :)

Rich

there's generally a lot more crockery on a wreck than makers plates and each plate has it's own makers mark and generally the name of the shipping line.

Electrical insulators and glass batteries point toward @ 1910ish at the earliest to me. so I would guess you are looking at somewhere @ 1910 - 1950 for a date of sinking.

Get the name of the shipping line and therefore nationality and look for losses in the adriatic that went down in ballast 1910-1950 and I suspect you'll have a reasonably narrow field of candidates.

PS best piece of ID I've got on a local wreck is the makers name on a broken toilet but it fairly conclusively narrows the field to one vessel.

PPS hull construction? welded or riveted? welded puts it at post 1940's

[Rich Walker]

there's generally a lot more crockery on a wreck than makers plates and each plate has it's own makers mark and generally the name of the shipping line.
PPS hull construction? welded or riveted? welded puts it at post 1940's

Welded. Which seems to make is 1930's or later, as you say.

[Ian@1904]

Losing the stern and bow is incredibly careless. That combined with a paravane... was there a minefield in the area?
In which case would there be any naval records for missing mine sweepers.

[Rich Walker]

Paravane on the seabed might not "belong" to this wreck. It's entirely possible that the wreck is earlier and that the paravane snagged on the wreck while attempting to sweep for mines / knock down the superstructure to reduce hazard to shipping.

Although knowing Rich, this is not going to be a shallow wreck...

Yes, the PV might be a red herring, so we're not pinning everything on it.

Depth... well, not that deep actually.

Rich

[Rich Walker]

Losing the stern and bow is incredibly careless. That combined with a paravane... was there a minefield in the area?
In which case would there be any naval records for missing mine sweepers.

Several. ;)

We were thinking about a minesweeper, and are following that one up.

Rich

[steelemonkey]

I have never understood the appeal of wrecks, to me they are just places for wildlife to live, but I suppose I have always dived on known wrecks.
Now I am following this fascinating thread, I am starting to see how interesting they can be.
I like a good mystery. This is quite forensic.

[nickb]

I have never understood the appeal of wrecks, to me they are just places for wildlife to live....I have never understood the appeal of squidge, to me they just get in the way of the wreck ;)

[steelemonkey]

I have never understood the appeal of squidge, to me they just get in the way of the wreck ;)

It would be a strange world if we were all the same.

[nickb]

It would be a strange world if we were all the same.Especially if we were all like Paulo!

[Bobanderson]

Several. ;)

We were thinking about a minesweeper, and are following that one up.

Rich

many of the ships here have raddledaddels (sp) which are kinda paravanes so this might not be the tightest of assumptions... without seeing the mounting 'pole' on the stem post....

[Rich Walker]

many of the ships here have raddledaddels (sp) which are kinda paravanes so this might not be the tightest of assumptions... without seeing the mounting 'pole' on the stem post....

You'll have to help me out a bit there Bob. What is a raddledaddle? And what does it do?

[steelemonkey]

You'll have to help me out a bit there Bob. What is a raddledaddle? And what does it do?

What! Have you never had your daddle raddled?

[MikeF]

Welded. Which seems to make is 1930's or later, as you say.

first welded ships were the Liberty ships with the first in 1941, so sounds increasingly WW2 or later so you've just narrowed the search a bit further, later than WW2 and it would presumably be recorded if it were a peacetime sinking so you are probably looking for vessels lost @ 1942 - 45 which would tie-in with the paravane. , but no mention of guns and hold in ballast implies merchant ship or military supply vessel. look on any tools lying about and see if they have a crowsfoot stamped on them which would mark it as a military vessel. winches and stuff may have small makers plates as well.

from the bricks it's may be British (or they may have picked some up at some point) so get the nationality from a plate or toilet to narrow down the nationality and if British have a look in British vessels lost at sea 1939-45 for anything lost in the area.

any small gun towers / mounts around the bridge area or concrete bridge protection slabs? if none it's probably post war.


Batteries and lots of insulators around the bridge? how many and are they inside or out side of the bridge area? possibly wire aerial insulators?

[Mark Chase]

Paravane on the seabed might not "belong" to this wreck. It's entirely possible that the wreck is earlier and that the paravane snagged on the wreck while attempting to sweep for mines / knock down the superstructure to reduce hazard to shipping.

Although knowing Rich, this is not going to be a shallow wreck...


He spent 80mins on the wreck ?? ;)

less than 45m is my guess 80mins would be 3 hours + run time on a 45m wreck on CCR


Rich

Do you know the "Docter" Darren from the Birmingham Mafia? He's on here ocasionaly. He's the best man to ask i know of

[jamesp]

Do either the glass battery cases, or electrical insulators have markings in them?

Manufacturers mark would usually be an embossed feature on a part like that, so less likely to disappear over time.

Only a random thought, but it could help with origin.

[Rich Walker]

Do either the glass battery cases, or electrical insulators have markings in them?

Manufacturers mark would usually be an embossed feature on a part like that, so less likely to disappear over time.

Only a random thought, but it could help with origin.

I had a good look at the batteries but couldn't see any markings. We can look again though

[ScubaHogg]

HMS Coriolanus (T140) Lost N.Adriatic towards the end of the war... Single screw Shakespearian class tug??

[braun]

This is a fascinating read. Good luck.

[Paulo]

Just check the ships log. It is bound to be in there somewhere :D

[Adrian]

Several. ;)

We were thinking about a minesweeper, and are following that one up.

Rich
17m is a large beam for a minesweeper judging by the classes I've just briefly scanned. Not to say it's not another ship pressed into sweeping duties.

[Spirit of Guernsey]

Just check the ships log. It is bound to be in there somewhere :D

Check the heads.

[Rich Walker]

HMS Coriolanus (T140) Lost N.Adriatic towards the end of the war... Single screw Shakespearian class tug??

Nope. Dived that many times.

Rich

[ScubaHogg]

Nope. Dived that many times.

Rich

Curious... when i typed that post in there was another line that seems to have been lost... "Something of a similar size to that?"

[Decosnapper]

I have never understood the appeal of wrecks, to me they are just places for wildlife to live, but I suppose I have always dived on known wrecks.
Now I am following this fascinating thread, I am starting to see how interesting they can be.
I like a good mystery. This is quite forensic.

The Shipwreck Project (http://www.theshipwreckproject.com)has more mysteries than time to solve. Everything from the Bronze Age through to Cold War era aircraft.

Its addictive fun finding and researching stuff the rest of the world has forgotten about or has no idea where it is.

[turnerjd]

Several things jump out,

1. The 17m beam, welded construction, single prop, looks like a 30s or40s ship.

This beam is bang on the Liberty ship size and everything else fits.

2. 60m of ship left, bow and stern missing.

This fits with an overall length of what? 120m? This is also Liberty territory.

3. Firebricks from the Tyne.

Edit: these are consumable items, so you are looking for either a Tyne built ship, a Tyne-designed ship, or such a standard design boiler that anybody made the correct fire-bricks.

Liberty ships were oil fired, but they were built on an existing coal-fired design, the Ocean ships, sometimes called the 'British victory' ships, all built in the US in the 1-2 years before the Liberty ships, again all welded single shaft, but built to a standard 'Sunderland Tramp' design that was still being built 5 years before WW2. These were not a big success as I understand, because they were built exactly to the UK design to ease maintenance in the UK. I think you could spend a few productive minutes looking at the Ocean class, and Sunderland tramps to see if any were lost in that region.

There is enough info including their general layout available that you should be able to exclude any of the three classes quite quickly, probably without any further dives.

[jamesp]

Several things jump out,

1. The 17m beam, welded construction, single prop, looks like a 30s or40s ship.

This beam is bang on the Liberty ship size and everything else fits.

2. 60m of ship left, bow and stern missing.

This fits with an overall length of what? 120m? This is also Liberty territory.

3. Firebricks from the Tyne.

Edit: these are consumable items, so you are looking for either a Tyne built ship, a Tyne-designed ship, or such a standard design boiler that anybody made the correct fire-bricks.

Liberty ships were oil fired, but they were built on an existing coal-fired design, the Ocean ships, sometimes called the 'British victory' ships, all built in the US in the 1-2 years before the Liberty ships, again all welded single shaft, but built to a standard 'Sunderland Tramp' design that was still being built 5 years before WW2. These were not a big success as I understand, because they were built exactly to the UK design to ease maintenance in the UK. I think you could spend a few productive minutes looking at the Ocean class, and Sunderland tramps to see if any were lost in that region.

There is enough info including their general layout available that you should be able to exclude any of the three classes quite quickly, probably without any further dives.

This got me interested, so....

From a 17m beam, general formula gives a length of around 122m.

Liberty ship is around 120~140m, on a 17m beam.

Common dimensions for single screw cargo vessels it seems from a google of Jarrow Yards (palmers), then I found this, I will admit its wiki, but:-


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

"As late as December 1947, Robert Dale Owen, renamed Kalliopi and sailing under the Greek flag, broke in three and sank in the northern Adriatic Sea after hitting a mine.[31] "

It does kind of leap out a bit.

Any use?

[turnerjd]

Where are you in the Adriatic? KrnicaDive?

Robert Dale Owen (liberty ship) was sunk in 1947 after hitting a mine near Rijeka, just down the road from you...........

Edit: James got there about a second before me......

[Rich Walker]

No, we know Kalliopi. I'm liking the liberty ship idea though...

Rich

[turnerjd]

If you've dived the Kalliopi and the JEL, diving on this one should scream "Liberty ship" if it was one - they were all the same.

[moody]

if it was allied and torpedoed then there is a list of u-boat kills in the med on u-boat .net

[turnerjd]

Can you give us a bit more information to help with our amateur sleuthing?

Missing bow and stern is somewhat unusual. Usually if a ship is holed, then there is a risk that during sinking it will break its back sinking, but this is usually in one place, often in the middle. However a missing stern or bow is more associated with a mine or being torpedoed, but as said above, it's really quite careless of the captain to lose both the bow and the stern. Equally, the wrecks that I have dived on that had sunk after hitting a mine were fairly intact.

There are only two things I can think of for such carelessness, that is multiple explosive events (torpedoing a mined ship) or some form of mine plus fire plus explosives in ship going up. However it looks like the ship was in ballast, no?

So.... Questions

What sort of location is the wreck in? Is it close to shore where a minefield would be? Most ww2 mines were within a couple of NM of the shore, and further out when in the approaches to ports etc... The Germans had certain depths that they mined in, I think that they were rarely in water deeper than >50m

I assume it's not next to a rocky pinnacle or other natural hazard? This would make it clearer that it was an act of war that sent it to the bottom, rather than human (navigation) error.

What are the hull breaks like? The Liberty ships had steel quality problems, and after Arctic convoys became very brittle with several breaking up while sailing. Do the breaks look like explosion (ragged) or brittle fracture (like ripping a sheet of paper in two)? Or is it signs of post sinking salvage with explosives?

Were ships running round during WW2 with ballast? Or did they just sail empty when necessary?

[turnerjd]

Another dumb question as you've obviously been into the engine room....

Triple expansion engine or steam turbine?

By 1940 almost all ships being built in the UK and the US were steam turbine powered, as they are far more efficient, although the triple expansion came back for liberty ships as they were simpler and could me made by many more companies faster, and in greater numbers. Immediately post war, construction went back to steam turbines.

You'll have to dig further, but there are only the liberty, ocean (British victory) and victory (Liberty successor) classes that were welded steam ships with triple expansion engines that I know of. Other countries generally didn't start building welded ships until after the end of WW2, and most were still using triple expansion engines as well.

[Rich Walker]

Mines were prolific in this area, and sunk most of the wrecks around here, so it would be my guess.

I'm ashamed to say that I can't find the boiler(s). The whole wreck lies lower than I'd expect for the size, and there is very little superstructure left. Where the boilers should be is a layer of rocks and gravel - who knows how deep. I can see firebricks, some bits and bobs of machinery but little else.

A diver yesterday found what he claims to be the funnel some 50m off the wreck.

I need to get back there soon ;-)

I'm loving all the helpful advice guys. It's much appreciated.

Rich

[turnerjd]

In Libertys the boilers are directly under the superstructure just in front of the engine. If I remember correctly, the funnel then goes up, through the superstructure, starting between the engine and the boiler.

Any help?

Also liberty boilers were rectangular water-tube boilers not spherical "traditional" (fire tube) boilers it will look quite different to what you would normally expect to see.

[SimonK]

layout of a liberty ship boiler room: http://navy.memorieshop.com/Cargo-Ships/Engine-Room/Fire-Room.html

The boilers seem quite compact and low down in the hull, if you are finding fire bricks the boiler casing could have rotted away.

[dynarob]

I presume it's been salvaged as no engine/boilers/prop ?

I've only scanned the thread but is there confirmation that the engine is missing ?

Engine type and even better cylinder measurements would be useful.

[SimonK]

Basic question, what sort of engine? Steam, deisel or turbine. If steam then as others have said number of cylinders and size is important. If deisel then number of cylinders (and you wont find a boiler!!). If you cant see anything that looks like an engine then its probably turbine which will be small uninteresting lump at the bottom of the engine room.

[turnerjd]

layout of a liberty ship boiler room: http://navy.memorieshop.com/Cargo-Ships/Engine-Room/Fire-Room.html

The boilers seem quite compact and low down in the hull, if you are finding fire bricks the boiler casing could have rotted away.

On that site you will find many other good photos and general arrangement images, including deck layout, and photos of the shaft tunnel. From these, and what you have described so far, you should be able to confirm if it was a Liberty or not.

[Ian@1904]

What are the hull breaks like? The Liberty ships had steel quality problems, and after Arctic convoys became very brittle with several breaking up while sailing. Do the breaks look like explosion (ragged) or brittle fracture (like ripping a sheet of paper in two)? Or is it signs of post sinking salvage with explosives?Is there any way to determine if the hull damage was external or internal to the hull? Pushed in suggests a mine, torpedo, or artillery shell. Pushed outwards suggested internal explosion.
I don't suppose that you have any decent quality images with measurements of the riveting and welding used on the hull? The distance between rivets, size of rivet, or type of weld may provide a clue as to where the ship was built.

[steelemonkey]

This is most interesting. Strangely, if it was about trains, I would probably find it boring.

[Adrian]

This is most interesting. Strangely, if it was about trains, I would probably find it boring.
I don't know, finding a train in the ocean tends to aid identification. :)

[taz]

.

Is it possible that the bows and stern, maybe even the engines were removed
before it sunk? Is it possible it was a salvage job gone wrong or a block ship
sunk in the wrong place?

taz

.

[steelemonkey]

I don't know, finding a train in the ocean tends to aid identification. :)

http://i68.tinypic.com/23ubxnp.jpg

Done that.

[turnerjd]

There was talk of a paravane in early messages.

If the beam was 17m (which corresponds to a loa of 120m) a paravane is unlikely, but as the wreck is obviously a cargo, could it be part of one of the deck mounted derricks? This might help narrow things down a bit....

[turnerjd]

Rich,

Any progress on identifying this wreck? This thread as good detective work, and I'm hungry for news....

[Rich Walker]

I'm back out here at the moment, although not diving on this wreck. Last I heard there had been no progress. I'll have another ask around.

Rich