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Phate
09-02-2016, 05:12 AM
Time for another nooby rebreather question from your own resident idiot.

I've seen that BOV's are a cause of debate but it usually quickly turns into a slagging match before I can read why.

So, TDF experts...why is there a big divide between loving them and hating them?

dwhitlow
09-02-2016, 06:13 AM
There is a divide because some people agree with me and some are just plain wrong ;)

Much of the need for active debate stems from differences in what people consider important. Thoughts of a CO2 hit can substantially change these priorities, much as stressed divers and pony cylinder gas depletion creates excitement. As usual, for some, there is the perceived need to explain why their choice is the only choice for any sentient being, rather than the choice they prefer.

Some prefer keeping bailout completely separate and see no need for BOV and may cite differences in WOB vs. first stage or the additional weight of the loop.

I dived without a BOV for a while but decided I wanted one as it gave me additional options, and I can bail out more quickly than I can from a separate second stage.

My BOV is plumbed into my diluent bottle, to provide sanity breaths whilst I prepare my bailout for use. My bailout generally contains the same gas as the diluent bottle which makes gas management a little simpler as they can both be kept topped up from the same gas source. I selected my approach as it is simple to set up and requires minimum thought if I need to bailout. There is also an LP hose on the bailout I can plug into my MAV should I lose bailout.

Some prefer to run their BOV from an offboard cylinder. This removes the need to remove the breathing loop from their mouth to bailout and adds an additional steps to kitting, although it isn't too hard. This option can be further extended by complicated gas block arrangements, extra plumbing, flowstops etc. I find this overly complicates things for me or, for whoever I am diving with if I wanted to explain it.

Stew W
09-02-2016, 06:25 AM
I've seen that BOV's are a cause of debate but it usually quickly turns into a slagging match before I can read why.



Hi welcome to TDF, you must be new here...

:)

uwila
09-02-2016, 06:34 AM
There is a divide because some people agree with me and some are just plain wrong ;)

Dave, I've always loved your impartiality. :8):

Woz
09-02-2016, 06:57 AM
It's because they haven't made their own brilliant one

notdeadyet
09-02-2016, 07:43 AM
I suspect most of the anti bov group have never had a co2 hit. There is a good argument that if you take care prepping your unit then you'll never have a problem. On the other hand, no-one sets out to make mistakes.

I've had 2 decent co2 hits and they are the only incidents in my diving that I was genuinely surprised to survive.

I think it is compounded by drills that teach the diver to calmly swap to an offboard bailout. Doing that with a headful of co2 is one of the hardest things I've ever done.

I'd put a bov higher than all the other shite divers get told they need. Far higher than a hud by a long way.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

nigel hewitt
09-02-2016, 10:28 AM
I've only had one CO2 hit but as notdeadyet says it does rather radicalise your thinking.
When I realised I could not actually stop breathing so I could not do my practiced 'swap to bailout' I knew I had a really bad problem.
(Your brain still works perfectly but your brain-stem has taken over control of breathing so it's become a reflex.)

Of course it also made me a pretty paranoid scrubber assembler so I've never needed it but on the day that something breaks it's going to be there.
Also I check my breathing rate when I check my ppO2.
I really do not want to go through that one again.

nickb
09-02-2016, 12:04 PM
So, TDF experts...why is there a big divide between loving them and hating them?Ha. To be honest, you'd be better-off asking this question on one of the rebreather sites.

Generally, they are tedious places and I say that as a moderator on one of them but, they are not full of keyboard warriors who don't even own a rebreather but who will have to have their say anyway. Everybody on this forum who might have something useful to say is on those fora.

MikeF
09-02-2016, 01:06 PM
yeees, but so are a bunch of right idjits who would never ever admit to making a mistake even if it ends up killing them. saying that there are some good threads on ccrx regarding CO2 hits and BOV's

As NDY says opinion is divided because there are those that have had a CO2 hit and those that haven't. BOV advocates are generally the former.

I've had a CO2 hit (twice) and the first time was far from funny even with a BOV (if you get a BOV get one that breathes well OC, not breathes OK, breathes well, that's very important). have I dived without a BOV since? yes. would I dive without a BOV out of choice? No.

I run my whole unit from offboard so my dil is my bailout. bailout to OC means turn knob on BOV and go OC while I leisurely take stock and deploy a proper reg if required or get the next cylinder ready for when my deep bailout runs out. I had a BOV and I still did that looking at a spare reg and thinking can I stop breathing long enough to take this out and put that in without drowning because the BOV struggled to cope for real and I can see why people rapidly die from CO2 hits.

in my case the real scary thing with the CO2 was that in addition to chugging through around 65lpm of gas, my brain didn't work properly, not even a little bit, nor my arms or legs or anything else. i was, to put a description to my state of mind and physical condition, totally fucked.

any additional weight or expense or plumbing pales into insignificance compared to being able to flip a valve and be instantly on OC.

OutOfTest
09-02-2016, 01:08 PM
I'm very inexperienced on CCR.

My unit currently doesn't have a BOV. I'm taking advice from all and sundry. I'm getting conflicting advice from those who've had CO2 hits:

1. Get a BOV as the switch is hard
2. Don't get a BOV as its false security and doesn't deliver gas well enough for proper hit. Even the shrimp etc

Option 1 is more common advice though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MikeF
09-02-2016, 01:16 PM
I'm very inexperienced on CCR.

My unit currently doesn't have a BOV. I'm taking advice from all and sundry. I'm getting conflicting advice from those who've had CO2 hits:

1. Get a BOV as the switch is hard
2. Don't get a BOV as its false security and doesn't deliver gas well enough for proper hit. Even the shrimp etc

Option 1 is more common advice though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TBH both of those positions have merit. having tried it though I'd still go for a BOV because that switch is so hard.

Doomanic
09-02-2016, 01:18 PM
I'm also very inexperienced on CCR and I'm torn between a BOV and a HUD. I want both but can only afford one right now.

dwhitlow
09-02-2016, 01:29 PM
I'm also very inexperienced on CCR and I'm torn between a BOV and a HUD. I want both but can only afford one right now.

A HUD gives you information you already have available.

A BOV might save your life.

Timw
09-02-2016, 01:31 PM
I'm very inexperienced on CCR.

My unit currently doesn't have a BOV. I'm taking advice from all and sundry. I'm getting conflicting advice from those who've had CO2 hits:

1. Get a BOV as the switch is hard
2. Don't get a BOV as its false security and doesn't deliver gas well enough for proper hit. Even the shrimp etc

Option 1 is more common advice though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've managed to avoid a CO2 hit so far but wouldn't dive without a BOV by choice as I really don't want to find out just how hard the swap is in anger.
Does it make me complacent - I'd say not - I still manage my dive to avoid CO2 build up in the first place - I exert myself as little as possible!
Mines plumbed to my bailout as I'm not confident in my ability to swap after a few sanity breaths in a real situation - I've taken that variable out of the process.
It works for me - I'll see what others do but at the end of the day that's my decision

ebt
09-02-2016, 02:42 PM
You see a lot of guff talked about CCR stuff, which is clearly where I come in;)

A bov may not be the ideal solution but it will do two things:

1. Allow you to switch witthoit removing a reg. Which may be enough to regain enough control to fully bail off....

2. Reduce resistance to bailout. I know a lot of guys who've delayed their bail out and its made the situation worse. A bov is so easy for bailout that it seems to remove that barrier.

Its a shame bovs haven't advanced more, I did briefly look at the open sore one, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I trust those guys.

BTS
09-02-2016, 02:52 PM
A BOV was the first upgrade I made to my unit, it seems a sensible decision, it makes life easier when the shit is hitting the fan, I can't think of a reason not to have one..

gobfish1
09-02-2016, 02:59 PM
co2 hits on a breather was just made up by the redhead so he could sell his top end WOB death box ,

your all having panic attack s not co2 hits , stop reading pdf,s and shite on the inter web, :D:D

Ihsaan
09-02-2016, 03:09 PM
What about a diluent flush for sanity breaths instead of a BOV?

BTS
09-02-2016, 03:12 PM
What about a diluent flush for sanity breaths instead of a BOV?

Still more complicated than a 1/4 turn on a lever... And the idea is to get off the unit...

gobfish1
09-02-2016, 03:30 PM
What about a diluent flush for sanity breaths instead of a BOV?

Every Breath i take on my ccr is a sanity breath lol ,

MikeF
09-02-2016, 03:34 PM
What about a diluent flush for sanity breaths instead of a BOV?

you're already porked by then. from personal experience the rate of breathing actually went through the roof immediately after coming off the loop which is why I switched from BOV connected to onboard Dil to BOV connected to offboard bailout. the thought of dil flush for sanity breaths seems to be a waste of gas to me and you may then find it even harder to get off the loop.

CO2 hit 1 nearly killed me at 30m due to rapidly draining a 3L dil cylinder, CO2 hit 2 at 65m was an moderate annoyance as I knew what was coming, flipped the BOV to shitloads of gas long before it got debilitating and scooted back up the line toot suite.

though the best way to prevent a CO2 hit on a dive appears to be stop being a tight arse and change your scrubber for new lime.

gobfish1
09-02-2016, 03:44 PM
you're already porked by then. from personal experience the rate of breathing actually went through the roof immediately after coming off the loop which is why I switched from BOV connected to onboard Dil to BOV connected to offboard bailout. the thought of dil flush for sanity breaths seems to be a waste of gas to me and you may then find it even harder to get off the loop.

CO2 hit 1 nearly killed me at 30m due to rapidly draining a 3L dil cylinder, CO2 hit 2 at 65m was an moderate annoyance as I knew what was coming, flipped the BOV to shitloads of gas long before it got debilitating and scooted back up the line toot suite.

though the best way to prevent a CO2 hit on a dive appears to be stop being a tight arse and change your scrubber for new lime.

some are even to tight to vent the loop a few times on a dive , min loop and all that bollox

notdeadyet
09-02-2016, 04:06 PM
2. Don't get a BOV as its false security and doesn't deliver gas well enough for proper hit. Even the shrimp etc


I've bailed on both a KISS and Golem Vario bovs. Neither are famous for being the best. They do the job.

Which is easier to breathe? A bov or water? Because I seriously contemplated taking a breath of water when bailing without a bov.


I'm also very inexperienced on CCR and I'm torn between a BOV and a HUD. I want both but can only afford one right now.
Bov. A hud is luxury.




2. Reduce resistance to bailout. I know a lot of guys who've delayed their bail out and its made the situation worse. A bov is so easy for bailout that it seems to remove that barrier.



That is actually something that is underestimated as a bov advantage.

It's also a good way of getting offboard gas into the loop without adding any more offboard connections.


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gobfish1
09-02-2016, 04:25 PM
never got round to fitting a bov , but did think about it , id prob plum it in to the 3l inboard manifold , and then plum my deep bail out in to the first stage of my inboad dill , that way if i forget to plug in my off board iv got a few breaths from the inboard
and i could also plug 2nd bail out in to dil mav hose if i wanted and stay on the bov ,or go oc ,

Capt Morgan
09-02-2016, 04:43 PM
I just serviced my BOV today as it was weeping a few bubbles at the weekend :)

MikeF
09-02-2016, 05:01 PM
you'll die horribly

MikeF
09-02-2016, 05:22 PM
never got round to fitting a bov , but did think about it , id prob plum it in to the 3l inboard manifold , and then plum my deep bail out in to the first stage of my inboad dill , that way if i forget to plug in my off board iv got a few breaths from the inboard
and i could also plug 2nd bail out in to dil mav hose if i wanted and stay on the bov ,or go oc ,

I plumbed my BOV into the manifold then put a QC on the manifold feed that either connects to onboard or offboard cylinder. it takes about 5 seconds to go from running the unit from 3L onboard air to running it from 10L offboard mix or vice versa. manifold feed comes over my shoulder and plugs in in front of my slim belly where I can easily access the QC to connect and disconnect while sat on my arse kitting up or de-kitting.

there are many ways of plumbing in a BOV and everyone seems to have their own take on what works best. Though the other ways are of course wrong.

Baron015
09-02-2016, 08:31 PM
I'm very inexperienced on CCR.

My unit currently doesn't have a BOV. I'm taking advice from all and sundry. I'm getting conflicting advice from those who've had CO2 hits:

1. Get a BOV as the switch is hard
2. Don't get a BOV as its false security and doesn't deliver gas well enough for proper hit. Even the shrimp etc

Option 1 is more common advice though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I choose life. I choose option 1.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

bottle maker
09-02-2016, 09:23 PM
I have had a CO2 hit with out a BOV I now have a BOV

Graham.

Brad_Horn
09-02-2016, 10:36 PM
2. Don't get a BOV as its false security and doesn't deliver gas well enough for proper hit. Even the shrimp etc
The problem with viewpoint 2. is that not all BOVs are the same. Historically BOVs if available were take it or leave it. You can now get high performance ones (from OSEL, Poseidon and possibly Hollis) that in OC mode are just as good as the class leading OC regs used for bailout. Quite easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, just ask for a copy of the WOB testing data and compare the BOVs.
They would however be quite right about the Shrimp not delivering sufficient gas for a proper hit or even when just working hard! Just chat to those that have tested it like Martin Parker or Leon Scamahorn.....

OutOfTest
09-02-2016, 10:54 PM
The problem with viewpoint 2. is that not all BOVs are the same. Historically BOVs if available were take it or leave it. You can now get high performance ones (from OSEL, Poseidon and possibly Hollis) that in OC mode are just as good as the class leading OC regs used for bailout. Quite easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, just ask for a copy of the WOB testing data and compare the BOVs.
They would however be quite right about the Shrimp not delivering sufficient gas for a proper hit or even when just working hard! Just chat to those that have tested it like Martin Parker or Leon Scamahorn.....

Thanks for that. Some bedtime browsing for me


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nickb
09-02-2016, 11:26 PM
Quite easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, just ask for a copy of the WOB testing data and compare the BOVs.Tested under completely artificial circumstances that may, but almost certainly won't, replicate the circumstances in which you may find yourself using one.

If if I want to know how a BOV will work under genuine conditions, I'd sooner take one there and put it to the test. Reading a pdf in the comfort of my armchair is as much use as reading Volkwagen's emissions test data. You may as well wipe your arse with it.

nickb
09-02-2016, 11:28 PM
Thanks for that. Some bedtime browsing for me Haha. You're new here aren't you?

Brad's found a newbie to whom he can sell his snake oil

OutOfTest
09-02-2016, 11:29 PM
Not the test data....I don't pay much attention to that.

But I can browse around the osel and Poseidon BOVs and see what experiences j can find people having with them :D


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nickb
09-02-2016, 11:34 PM
Plenty of Poseidon BOVs out there. Only decent part of an otherwise shite rebreather. Not too many OSEL ones though.

He is right about the Hollis though, that is a nice bit of kit. Comes in black now too ;)

Phate
10-02-2016, 12:07 AM
Thanks for the explanations all!

Think a BOV is going to be on the cards for when I get a unit...

iain/hsm
10-02-2016, 12:08 AM
Tested under completely artificial circumstances that may, but almost certainly won't, replicate the circumstances in which you may find yourself using one.

What like sucking and blowing while underwater?



If I want to know how a BOV will work under genuine conditions, I'd sooner take one there and put it to the test.

What like 50MSW and 90RMV
Just Saying

Now be a dear and pass me that Pdf you've been hiding LOL :giggle:

witchieblackcat
10-02-2016, 02:11 AM
I always use a BOV because if I get a CO2 hit I breathe a shit reg of breathable stuff rather than die.
A buddy of mine has invested in a CO2 monitor so he believes that means he doesn't need a BOV. I'm unconvinced so far but open to education on the idea.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

EngelenD
10-02-2016, 08:43 AM
Plenty of Poseidon BOVs out there. Only decent part of an otherwise shite rebreather. Not too many OSEL ones though.

He is right about the Hollis though, that is a nice bit of kit. Comes in black now too ;)

I had the shrimp, now the Osel, breaths way better for my feeling.




Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

nigel hewitt
10-02-2016, 08:46 AM
I always use a BOV because if I get a CO2 hit I breathe a shit reg of breathable stuff rather than die.
A buddy of mine has invested in a CO2 monitor so he believes that means he doesn't need a BOV. I'm unconvinced so far but open to education on the idea.
I'm an instrumentation geek but a CO2 meter seems like a bit of a toy to put something in the computer log so we know why he died.
I need to know something is going wrong not when it has already gone wrong.

I am still thankful that when I screwed up a fill and got the dreaded CO2 I was in 18 meters of water on a scrotty second dive.


Actually the AP BOV I have now passes my '45 meters and gasp' test. No discernible resistance just a sudden lungfull of gas. Hardly scientific but a bit confidence building.

ARJAYM
10-02-2016, 09:51 AM
A BOV was the first upgrade I made to my unit, it seems a sensible decision, it makes life easier when the shit is hitting the fan, I can't think of a reason not to have one..

Same here. It's just a simpler start to all bail out scenarios.

diverjoe
10-02-2016, 09:59 PM
Good to know that a least one part of my Poseidon is good, how many times you dived a Poseidon Nickb

nickb
10-02-2016, 10:05 PM
Good to know that a least one part of my Poseidon is good, how many times you dived a Poseidon NickbIve never driven a Lada but I know my Audi is better than one of those.

Being shown the pre-dive check on that table tennis bat was enough to persuade me it was a waste of time.

ARJAYM
11-02-2016, 10:32 AM
Ive never driven a Lada but I know my Audi is better than one of those.

.
He's got a point there ��

EngelenD
11-02-2016, 12:11 PM
I'm an instrumentation geek but a CO2 meter seems like a bit of a toy to put something in the computer log so we know why he died.
I need to know something is going wrong not when it has already gone wrong.

I am still thankful that when I screwed up a fill and got the dreaded CO2 I was in 18 meters of water on a scrotty second dive.


Actually the AP one I have now passes my '45 meters and gasp' test. No discernible resistance just a sudden lungfull of gas. Hardly scientific but a bit confidence building.

If You screwed up a fill isn't the problem then CO and not CO2 ?


Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

dynarob
11-02-2016, 12:17 PM
If You screwed up a fill isn't the problem then CO and not CO2 ?

I assume he meant a scrubber fill.

Mark Chase
12-02-2016, 08:59 AM
I'm very inexperienced on CCR.

My unit currently doesn't have a BOV. I'm taking advice from all and sundry. I'm getting conflicting advice from those who've had CO2 hits:

1. Get a BOV as the switch is hard
2. Don't get a BOV as its false security and doesn't deliver gas well enough for proper hit. Even the shrimp etc

Option 1 is more common advice though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



And option 2 is bulls##t


I dive a shrimp its perfictly fine as an OC reg operating on Apex TX internals.
There are better ones but the Shrimp is fine

The point is, if the BOV isnt breathing great you still have the option to go for an off board regulator on your bailout. Breathing a few Mjs diferance between your off board reg is not the end of the world and hopfulley by the time you have emptied your deep bailout you would have got the C02 breathing under control enough to switch regs

If however you simply cant get off loop and get on your off board reg because your breathing like a train?

You will die or get bent doing an imediat ascent

I hope you can see the subtle diferance between the two scinarios which makes the non BOV option less than optional

Some people cant but then some people smoke

ATB

Mark Chase
12-02-2016, 09:07 AM
What about a diluent flush for sanity breaths instead of a BOV?


They are a total waste of time.


You dont recover from a C02 hit with a sanity brteath???? It takes a fair amount of time to regain breathing control and I can only hopw that the 250bar in my off board 7 gives me enough time

Dill flushing and sanity breaths from and on board 3ltr as a responce to C02 is total rubbish and should be removed from Mod1 training

Dill flushings main reasion for being is to check cells

Dill flushing can reduce PP02 if you have an 02 failure of sime sort

Dill flushing can set you up to allow SCR as a gas extender bailout option

On long warm dives it is nice to Dill flush fresh cooler gas into the loop on deco


What Dill flushing DOES NOT do is cope with a C02 issue.

If your thinking dill flush for C02 then bailout NOW do not let the SAC increase to the point thats no longer an option.

Mark Chase
12-02-2016, 09:20 AM
The problem with viewpoint 2. is that not all BOVs are the same. Historically BOVs if available were take it or leave it. You can now get high performance ones (from OSEL, Poseidon and possibly Hollis) that in OC mode are just as good as the class leading OC regs used for bailout. Quite easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, just ask for a copy of the WOB testing data and compare the BOVs.
They would however be quite right about the Shrimp not delivering sufficient gas for a proper hit or even when just working hard! Just chat to those that have tested it like Martin Parker or Leon Scamahorn.....


I'd trust Martin Parkers coments on competetors equipment about as far as i could throw him

Remeber how he said Narked @ 90 cells wouldn't work in an Inspo and we would all die horable deaths? Yet amazingly now his own cells turnd out to be unworkable, its all OK?


And I am rather surprised by Leons coments because I tried his BOV before I baught a Shrimp and decided it wasn't good enough for me.

I have pushed the breathing as hard as I dare on the Shrimp at depths of up to 95m and have found no noticable effort. I am sure a macheen can pick it up but I cant and the macheens are working with air as a standard gas and I am working with trimix.


This argument is right up there with the people who died BECAUSE they were wearing a seat belt as an argument fro not wearing one.

Yes there are crap BOVs. The MK1 Golum pre Low work of breathing kit was absolutly awfull as a CCR unit but its OC was fantastic

The origional KISS unit was special in that it was crap OC and crap as a CCR unit

The JJ BOV was stunning as a CCR unit but rubbish / dangerous as a OC unit being both hard to breath and wet. Very wet


I have absolutly no issue with slagging off kit I have paid out a LOT of good money for and I owned all the above BOVs.

The Shrimp is fine. There are better ones like the Apoc, but that is only available in reverse flow, so I cant buy one.

Mark Chase
12-02-2016, 09:28 AM
I had the shrimp, now the Osel, breaths way better for my feeling.




Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd


I agree its a good unit but it doesent work on 95% of CCr as the gas flow is the wrong way.

OSEL BOV

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/Apoc/P1000591_zpsyuzhkx5n.jpg

A short fat ugly bloke diveing a OSEL bov which as you can see doesn't look so massive in use

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/Apoc/P1000564_zpsox4e7crp.jpg

BTS
12-02-2016, 09:36 AM
T
Dill flushing and sanity breaths from and on board 3ltr as a responce to C02 is total rubbish and should be removed from Mod1 training



AFAIAA they have been, that advice wasn't include on my course...

bottle maker
12-02-2016, 09:45 AM
I am not sure if you need a BOV with a really good work of breathing. With a harder WOB would you have to breath harder and deeper helping to clear the retained CO2. In my limited experience (once was enough) with a CO2 hit you are breathing very fast but shallow. I ended up on a OC buddies back gas that had less helium than I had been on but as I had to suck for the gas I ended up breathing slower but deeper. I was totally f@cked by the CO2 narcosis so my recollections of the incident varies from my buddies.

Possibly a BOV that initially breaths easily but gets progressively harder would help with a CO2 hit. Fully appreciate that CO2 is not the only failure that could mean baling was the best possible option and a high WOB can cause retained CO2.

I have the AP BOV and while gulping for gas in a drill situation at 60 meter's it breaths fine. It may have only been CE tested to 50 meters but I think that was using air. Even a Snark would breath well at 50 meters with enough helium.

Graham.

EngelenD
12-02-2016, 10:55 AM
I agree its a good unit but it doesent work on 95% of CCr as the gas flow is the wrong way.

OSEL BOV

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/Apoc/P1000591_zpsyuzhkx5n.jpg

A short fat ugly bloke diveing a OSEL bov which as you can see doesn't look so massive in use

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/Apoc/P1000564_zpsox4e7crp.jpg

Nice picture , what kind of harnas. Ist ?


Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

Doomanic
12-02-2016, 12:57 PM
One ot these at a guess; http://istdolphintech.com/technical-gears/jts-2.html

For sale here; http://www.godive.net/go-dive-en/wings-and-harnesses/ist-deluxe-harness.html

iain/hsm
12-02-2016, 02:15 PM
One ot these at a guess; http://istdolphintech.com/technical-gears/jts-2.html

For sale here; http://www.godive.net/go-dive-en/wings-and-harnesses/ist-deluxe-harness.html

Nicely illustrating once again that there is always some rinky dink scooby doo outfit out in China that can copy someone else’s design and harness a little cheaper and poorer than the original, 30 years later.

For sale here: http://www.millerdiving.com/company


Just saying. Iain :rolleyes:

BTS
12-02-2016, 03:04 PM
Its a friggin piece of webbing Iain..... Give it a rest...

iain/hsm
12-02-2016, 03:50 PM
Its a friggin piece of webbing Iain..... Give it a rest...

No………. The Miller original is someone thought, design experience and workmanship.
It has purpose within the design that you clearly do not yet understood or comprehend.

It has weak points and strong points and with the original design some 30 years of real diving experience behind it from divers who know the difference, appreciate it and can smell a Chinese junk copy a mile away.

The Chinese copy is just a cheap copy they don't know or understand the design features or the weak points
They just make a cheap copy.

The problem with your opinion and mine, is that either may be given measure but only one comes with a measure of experience. :rolleyes: Iain

BTS
12-02-2016, 03:57 PM
It is a piece of webbing....

I just buy webbing, thread it through the appropriate hard wear and have never had it let me down.... You can dress it up all you like but at the end of the day it is a bit of webbing...

BTW, the IST one looks nothing like the one in your link so how exactly is it a copy?

iain/hsm
12-02-2016, 04:11 PM
It is a piece of webbing....

I just buy webbing, thread it through the appropriate hard wear and have never had it let me down.... You can dress it up all you like but at the end of the day it is a bit of webbing...

BTW, the IST one looks nothing like the one in your link so how exactly is it a copy?

As it's you BTS I will do this once only just for you.

1. Go to the Miller web site to ...Products....Harnesses look at the pretty pictures
2. Open a new screen and go to the IST web page
3. Open the IST site "Technical Gear" and "New Products" look at the pretty pictures
4. Compare the pretty pictures

Then look up the meaning of Cheap Chinese copy.

BTS
12-02-2016, 05:16 PM
Oh Iain... you really do need to find a new hobby...

It is some webbing with some rivets in it, it is nothing special or unique...

Mikael
12-02-2016, 05:32 PM
1. Go to the Miller web site to ...Products....Harnesses look at the pretty pictures
2. Open a new screen and go to the IST web page
3. Open the IST site "Technical Gear" and "New Products" look at the pretty pictures
4. Compare the pretty pictures



I did.

They look different.

Mark Chase
12-02-2016, 07:28 PM
Nice picture , what kind of harnas. Ist ?


Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd


I am reasnobly sure its the standard harnes for the Apoc CCR

Thats what I was diveing on the day

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/Apoc/P1000568_zpst3trkvkt.jpg

Doomanic
12-02-2016, 07:44 PM
Shame the flow is arse about face.

Brad_Horn
12-02-2016, 10:52 PM
I am reasonably sure its the standard harnes for the Apoc CCR. Thats what I was diveing on the day
Mark, that IST harness is not standard but IIRC the owner preferred it over the OSEL supplied and developed tech harness and/or one piece. Just about any harness can be used on the Apoc.
That Apoc does however look like it is sitting 3-4' low on your shoulders - the breathing hoses should be coming straight out over your shoulders - when fitted right and your horizontal you can't quite touch your head on the handle. Just makes the setup more comfortable in the water with optimum breathing performance.

Brad_Horn
12-02-2016, 10:54 PM
Shame the flow is arse about face.
Why does your unit have the flow direction it has?

If you look at any serious professional/commercial/military rebreather the flow direction is Right to Left.

ARJAYM
12-02-2016, 11:13 PM
Why does your unit have the flow direction it has?

If you look at any serious professional/commercial/military rebreather the flow direction is Right to Left.

Why do they does it matter

matt
13-02-2016, 08:15 AM
This has been asked many times, and from what I learnt by reading posts by knowledgeable people (mostly scientists and those with hypercapnia experience) is this:

- Hypercapnia may cause an initial couple of minutes with ventilation so high you cannot remove the valve to switch
- Elevated RMV can by over 100lpm but probably you cannot sustain this level for long
- It's quite likely that the average RMV will be 40-50lpm
- If you have scrubber-breakthrough then it's easier to deal clear than CO2 retention
- Kit with high WOB contributes to CO2 retention (so bailing out to a high WOB valve may be probably counter-productive)
- Some people are more susceptible to CO2 retention than others, knowing who is who is hard/impossible
- "Sanity breaths" are not relevant for hypercapnia
- You're going to need a lot of gas to recover from a full-on hit
- Most hits are not full-on

You find the facts and decide how to deal with them.

Cheers
Matt.

Zubar
13-02-2016, 11:35 AM
I've never used a CCR, however I have done some looking. For me the arguments For a BOV seem to far outweigh those against.

I think there is an ACDC song line about a 'flick of a switch', wrong scenario but got to be easier than swapping a reg, when hypercapnic.

ebt
13-02-2016, 12:38 PM
This has been asked many times, and from what I learnt by reading posts by knowledgeable people (mostly scientists and those with hypercapnia experience) is this:

- Hypercapnia may cause an initial couple of minutes with ventilation so high you cannot remove the valve to switch
- Elevated RMV can by over 100lpm but probably you cannot sustain this level for long
- It's quite likely that the average RMV will be 40-50lpm
- If you have scrubber-breakthrough then it's easier to deal clear than CO2 retention
- Kit with high WOB contributes to CO2 retention (so bailing out to a high WOB valve may be probably counter-productive)
- Some people are more susceptible to CO2 retention than others, knowing who is who is hard/impossible
- "Sanity breaths" are not relevant for hypercapnia
- You're going to need a lot of gas to recover from a full-on hit
- Most hits are not full-on

You find the facts and decide how to deal with them.

Cheers
Matt.

Yup, nice summary Matt.

Coops told me that when he bent the boris dome and flooded his unit, he hit over 200LPM for a few minutes. I struggle to remember the details, but I remember doing the maths at the time and concluding that most of us werent carrying anyway near enough bailout.

Personally, Im of the opinion that the mitigation measures will depend on how far down the incident pit you are.

If you can spot the issue early enough (which a BOV can help with due to willingness to bail/sanity check), you can manage with a BOV/inboards then goto offboard via a reg. This is the method I use and have done a lot of sanity breaths over the years.

If you are heavily hypercapnic, then the chances of you being able to remove the BOV to switch to a stage is next to zilch, now you're in the world of working out how you'd like to plumb in your offboards.

I've seen quite a few bailouts, one thing that Im sure adds a significant safety benefit is a switched on buddy who gets CCR. Having someone calm beside you who can help, is a massive load off your mind. Once that 'flight' reflex kicks in, you can forget any idea of 'reasoning' ;)

notdeadyet
13-02-2016, 01:04 PM
I've seen quite a few bailouts, one thing that Im sure adds a significant safety benefit is a switched on buddy who gets CCR. Having someone calm beside you who can help, is a massive load off your mind. Once that 'flight' reflex kicks in, you can forget any idea of 'reasoning' ;)

Or alternatively you have a cock beside you :) What you really need after a bailout and a light failure is someone piling a load of rocks on the back of the unit so that you think the cave is collapsing on top of you when you move and they all fall on your head.

ebt
13-02-2016, 01:32 PM
pish orf. It took your mind off the flood/Co2 ;) tis a bloody public service guv...

Paulo
13-02-2016, 01:34 PM
pish orf. It took your mind off the flood/Co2 ;) tis a bloody public service guv...

And you didnt even charge him for that service either :D

matt
13-02-2016, 01:36 PM
Yup, if Dave managed 200 then there's no hope that a regular chubby diver can do better!

If you do 100lpm for 5 mins at 50m then you're needing a 200 bar 15L cylinder.

Plumbing into the inboard isn't going to work at all for the full-on scenario, but will be fine for other situations.

Someone will be along shortly to tell me 100lpm isn't possible, 20 is fine. Meh.


Yup, nice summary Matt.

Coops told me that when he bent the boris dome and flooded his unit, he hit over 200LPM for a few minutes. I struggle to remember the details, but I remember doing the maths at the time and concluding that most of us werent carrying anyway near enough bailout.

Personally, Im of the opinion that the mitigation measures will depend on how far down the incident pit you are.

If you can spot the issue early enough (which a BOV can help with due to willingness to bail/sanity check), you can manage with a BOV/inboards then goto offboard via a reg. This is the method I use and have done a lot of sanity breaths over the years.

If you are heavily hypercapnic, then the chances of you being able to remove the BOV to switch to a stage is next to zilch, now you're in the world of working out how you'd like to plumb in your offboards.

I've seen quite a few bailouts, one thing that Im sure adds a significant safety benefit is a switched on buddy who gets CCR. Having someone calm beside you who can help, is a massive load off your mind. Once that 'flight' reflex kicks in, you can forget any idea of 'reasoning' ;)

MikeF
13-02-2016, 02:50 PM
I reckon I hit between 65-100lpm and I honestly don't think I could breathe any faster or harder. I emptied a full onboard 3L bailing out from the deck of the Hispania (20mish). I think it was about 1 minute to start moving after bailing out, a minute or so to get up to 3m. try to stop but gave up after about 30s to a minute then hit the surface with just enough dil to inflate the wing and sit on the surface hyperventilating. I honestly believe that at no point could I have switched to a reg. My BOV is now attached to something bigger than a 3L if it's going to take more than a couple of minutes to hit the surface.

notdeadyet
13-02-2016, 03:08 PM
I sucked the arse of a 7 inside out at about 20m when I had a CO2 hit in Dorry. I think people also underestimate the psychological aspects of bailing out too. It takes a fair bit of presence of mind to remember to calm yourself down once you've bailed out and cleared the CO2. You're going to have a ton of adrenaline pumping round your system, no drill prepares you for that. I know we got all critical and politically correct about stress tests during training to make them inclusive but I think they have their place.

nigel hewitt
13-02-2016, 03:49 PM
I reckon I hit between 65-100lpm and I honestly don't think I could breathe any faster or harder.
I ran a test sitting on the floor at home and just managed a sustained 100l/min maxing out an apex 50 regulator set on air.
I think the limiting factor was what I could get down my neck not the regulators.
I didn't feel hugely sane when I stopped either.

Paulo
13-02-2016, 03:52 PM
Does physical fitness play a role in managing a CO2 hit? The fitter you are the better you body has learned to manage and purge CO2 produced in the gym and the better able to manage your O2.

notdeadyet
13-02-2016, 05:49 PM
I've wondered about that. Most of the way I train is HIIT type stuff which does make you feel a bit CO2'ish. Often quite a bit. More than once I've been fighting the urge to puke whilst pondering what this would be like underwater when attached to the daft end of a rebreather. My recovery times have gotten faster and I've ben curious as to how that would translate to bail out. I think the initial hit is something you'll never mitigate through fitness, I think it's far more on an instinctual level when it kicks in. But I have wondered about the recovery times afterwards.

I used to do a lot more freediving and train for that. There are a lot of drills designed to make you more tolerant of CO2. I wondered whether those were counterproductive or not too.

nigel hewitt
13-02-2016, 08:42 PM
I used to do a lot more freediving and train for that. There are a lot of drills designed to make you more tolerant of CO2. I wondered whether those were counterproductive or not too.
I'm going to guess counterproductive if you are not responding until it hurts then trying to do something about it you will be worse off before it hurts.

If you are 'watching the shop' on your breathing rate it means you can have more time to solve the problem and now it is an advantage.

Brad_Horn
15-02-2016, 11:16 PM
I have the AP BOV and while gulping for gas in a drill situation at 60 meter's it breaths fine. It may have only been CE tested to 50 meters but I think that was using air. Even a Snark would breath well at 50 meters with enough helium.
Graham, I am sure that it does breath quite fine just as long as your not working that hard.

I went looking for the .pdf on it and the 50m max use recommendation is gas independent. "The Inspiration, Evolution and Evolution+ closed circuit rebreathers’ CE certification to EN14143 is unaffected by the addition of this OCB
mouthpiece. OCB maximum certified depths: Closed Circuit = 100m. Open Circuit = 50m." WTF APD expect the diver to bailout to between 50m and 100m is an interesting one! http://www.apdiving.com/en/wp-content/uploads/rebreather-ocb-manual-apdiving.pdf

Ian_6301
16-02-2016, 05:54 AM
Graham, I am sure that it does breath quite fine just as long as your not working that hard.

I went looking for the .pdf on it and the 50m max use recommendation is gas independent. "The Inspiration, Evolution and Evolution+ closed circuit rebreathers’ CE certification to EN14143 is unaffected by the addition of this OCB
mouthpiece. OCB maximum certified depths: Closed Circuit = 100m. Open Circuit = 50m." WTF APD expect the diver to bailout to between 50m and 100m is an interesting one! http://www.apdiving.com/en/wp-content/uploads/rebreather-ocb-manual-apdiving.pdf

I wouldn't necessarily set to much store by what you read in a pdf, fella.

I recall a couple of years back there was this outrageous series of the things about some mythical rebreather that was going to save the world. IIRC, they liked slinging mud at APD too.

And yet, one of them is very much going strong and is the de facto rebreather for most newcomers and the other is a footnote in the book of ideas that never quite made it...

But then you knew that, didn't you?

Woz
16-02-2016, 04:14 PM
Graham, I am sure that it does breath quite fine just as long as your not working that hard.

I went looking for the .pdf on it and the 50m max use recommendation is gas independent. "The Inspiration, Evolution and Evolution+ closed circuit rebreathers’ CE certification to EN14143 is unaffected by the addition of this OCB
mouthpiece. OCB maximum certified depths: Closed Circuit = 100m. Open Circuit = 50m." WTF APD expect the diver to bailout to between 50m and 100m is an interesting one! http://www.apdiving.com/en/wp-content/uploads/rebreather-ocb-manual-apdiving.pdf

I was chatting to lets say "someone" at LIDS about BOV design and the AP Bov has been tested way deeper than 50m. He was very helpful and gave me a few pointers. They were even prepared to get a screwdriver out to pull their unit apart...! Rather pleasingly, the one I designed without ever having seen an AP one, ended up almost identical to their design. Convergence of something, I should guess.

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 05:51 PM
I was chatting to lets say "someone" at LIDS about BOV design and the AP Bov has been tested way deeper than 50m..


So what, I've petted a goat that's gone deeper than that. :think:



Pointless claim unless your going to disclose the gas used, 97/3 don't count
neither could the goat. Iain Middlebrook

BTS
16-02-2016, 06:06 PM
Iain.. when you say petted?!?!?!?!?

Woz
16-02-2016, 06:06 PM
So what, I've petted a goat that's gone deeper than that. :think: Pointless claim unless your going to disclose the gas used, 97/3 don't count neither could the goat. Iain Middlebrook
Air. Now get back to popping rinky dinks on your slat wall.

Mark Chase
16-02-2016, 06:11 PM
Brad whats the WOB on a shrimp at 50m

Whats its WOB at 50m on 18/45Trimix?

Or if you cant answer that then do you have any figures for any unit doing a comparison betwen air and trimix at a given depth

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 06:51 PM
Iain.. when you say petted?!?!?!?!?

On its' head, fed it grass.

Your maybe thinking about Sub Sea International and the MV Kattenturm 1981
Our infamous end of contract deck party in Spain when the local office girls were blown down
in the chamber.

Warning photos enclosed:nod:


http://www.ddghansa-shipsphotos.de/kattenturm300.htm

Darren A
16-02-2016, 06:52 PM
Warning photos enclosed:nod:


http://www.ddghansa-shipsphotos.de/kattenturm300.htm

Damn, was hoping to see photos of the office girls getting blown :)

BTS
16-02-2016, 07:01 PM
Your maybe thinking about Sub Sea International and the MV Kattenturm 1981



Oddly, it never entered my mind...

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 07:09 PM
Oddly, it never entered my mind...

Why am I not surprised.

As you said earlier "we have seen the photos before"
But the great thing about history, Its all a matter of record.
Next time I will make it relevant to you and use the DDRC photos

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 07:19 PM
Air. Now get back to popping rinky dinks on your slat wall.

Consider it a duty of care, and only the start.


I was chatting to lets say "someone" at LIDS about BOV design and the AP Bov has been tested way deeper than 50m.

Do you have anything more specific on "way deeper"




The one I designed without ever having seen an AP one, ended up almost identical to their design. Convergence of something, I should guess..

Not sure on convergence a drawing or a description of the design, show of the internals, fits and dynamic groove clearances would clear up your claim. Iain

Woz
16-02-2016, 07:39 PM
From memory I think 80m but they dialled the resistance back to 65 to detune it. Don't quote me on that though it was a conversation and there has been a few days and a cold in between.

Groove tolerances? Do you know the tolerances on injection moulding?

BTS
16-02-2016, 07:56 PM
Why am I not surprised.



Would it not be more surprising if I had heard of some random ship from some decades ago?

If you like I can post some pics of my push bike, don't be surprised if you don't recognise it...

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 09:45 PM
If you like I can post some pics of my push bike, don't be surprised if you don't recognise it...


I can do better than that, Allow me post you some of mine
Monday 9th August 2004 DDRC Plymouth Lower SAT Chamber. The infamous UT 240 project. Bike testing the customer. LOL



http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/img297_zpsepgxozff.jpg[/URL]

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/img296_zpsrznbclzy.jpg[/URL]

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/Picture007.jpg[/URL]

Not your bike, not your history, not your project work.:grin:

For external reference, on the UT 240 we discussed it recently (cant remember where)

http://www.therebreathersite.nl/05_Reviews/Undersea%20Technology%20UT240.htm

Barrygoss
16-02-2016, 09:47 PM
I can do better than that, Allow me post you some of mine
Monday 9th August 2004 DDRC Plymouth Lower SAT Chamber. The infamous UT 240 project. Bike testing the customer. LOL

IMG]http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/img296_zpsrznbclzy.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/img297_zpsepgxozff.jpg[/URL]

Not your bike, not your history, not your project work.:grin:

http://www.therebreathersite.nl/05_Reviews/Undersea%20Technology%20UT240.htm

Stop it. :)

#want that breather ;)

B

BTS
16-02-2016, 09:54 PM
That's twice you have used the word infamous, I fear you may be overstating your contributions to the world.. especially given it doesn't get a hit on google..

Darren A
16-02-2016, 09:56 PM
That's twice you have used the word infamous, I fear you may be overstating your contributions to the world..

I guess its infamous in the world of "proper" divers, not recreational rinky dink divers :)

BTS
16-02-2016, 10:11 PM
I guess its infamous in the world of "proper" divers, not recreational rinky dink divers :)

Infamous in Iains back yard, around lunchtime...

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 10:13 PM
I guess its infamous in the world of "proper" divers, not recreational rinky dink divers :)

Hey I have never said rinky dink divers, we are all divers and in that we all learn, hone our skill sets and do stuff.

And its not all the retail LD'S that are the rinky dinks in the industry, But of those that are you don't need them they overprice the kit expect to make profit for nothing, don't pay invoices on time and do a dis service to the name of diving. They need culling and let those good shops remain to make a better living, with better prospects for a better margin for a better industry. Iain

BTS
16-02-2016, 10:15 PM
Iain, seriously, you have slagged off some very reputable shops in the past.. To paraphrase what you said earlier, history is around for us to see

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 10:22 PM
Iain, seriously, you have slagged off some very reputable shops in the past.. To paraphrase what you said earlier, history is around for us to see

What like the last one? LOL Besides all I post was constructive criticism, true fair and honest.

And if we are done I would like we get back to the OP's BOV question I'm still loading photobucket up

BTS
16-02-2016, 10:24 PM
You once slagged of a shop not a million miles from here, I pointed it out to the owner, he said, and again I paraphrase 'Who the feck is that dick?'

iain/hsm
16-02-2016, 10:33 PM
You once slagged of a shop not a million miles from here, I pointed it out to the owner, he said, and again I paraphrase 'Who the feck is that dick?'

OK so your not done yet
Ok to make my reply quick and easy name the shop and the post,

dwhitlow
16-02-2016, 10:43 PM
Hey I have never said rinky dink divers, we are all divers and in that we all learn, hone our skill sets and do stuff.

And its not all the retail LD'S that are the rinky dinks in the industry, But of those that are you don't need them they overprice the kit expect to make profit for nothing, don't pay invoices on time and do a dis service to the name of diving. They need culling and let those good shops remain to make a better living, with better prospects for a better margin for a better industry. Iain

Is it my imagination or have many of them vanished? They weren't all bad shops either.
,

Brad_Horn
17-02-2016, 01:35 AM
Brad whats the WOB on a shrimp at 50m
Based on somewhat recent ANSTI machine testing of the GolemGear Shrimp in OC mode I understand at 50lpm at 50m on Air its WOB was 3.24J/L but the tester also noted that this was under perfect lab conditions and even then it was at the extreme end of what the bail out valve was capable of supplying and that it failed at higher demand rates. The inhalation effort at that low workrate was also twice that allowed for as a maximum in EN250. Which may explain why GG and any manufacturer whose rebreather uses it, has never bothered to publish any testing data!

For comparison at a higher OC workrate of 62.5lpm and a slightly deeper 55m depth on Air, the ALVBOVs WOB is 0.89J/L. On par with any high performance reg that would be used for bailout. http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_files/DV_DL_ALVBOV_Breathing_Params_A3_100318.pdf

In CC mode at 40m on Air the GG Shrimp is I understand in the order of 1.44J/L at 75lpm when I have extrapolated this from their 40lpm data.
In CC mode at 40m on Air the ALVBOV is 0.57 J/L at 75lpm


Whats its WOB at 50m on 18/45Trimix?
Unknown. I'd be surprised though if even use of Trimix was sufficient for it to pass the EN250 Air requirements.


Or if you cant answer that then do you have any figures for any unit doing a comparison betwen air and trimix at a given depth
For Trimix, I am not immediately aware of any for unit comparison.

For Heliox v Air, yes. For the entire Apoc in CC mode:
Air at 40m at 75lpm = 1.44J/L
Air at 100m at 75lpm = ~2.75J/L
Heliox at 40m at 75lpm = 0.67J/L
Heliox at 100m at 75lpm = 0.74J/L
Heliox at 200m at 75lpm = 0.94J/L
Heliox at 350m at 75lpm = 1.22J/L
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_files/DV_OR_WOB_Respiratory_C1_101111.pdf

BTS
17-02-2016, 06:16 AM
OK so your not done yet
Ok to make my reply quick and easy name the shop and the post,

Nah, I am not going to provide a platform for you to slag off someone's business, go back through your collection of pictures, here is a clue, it is in Plymouth but it isn't the DDRC...

Needless to say the owner could give a toss what some random on a forum thinks.... To busy restocking his slatwall..

fibre
17-02-2016, 06:42 AM
I can do better than that, Allow me post you some of mine
Monday 9th August 2004 DDRC Plymouth Lower SAT Chamber. The infamous UT 240 project. Bike testing the customer. LOL


I cant see your pictures, but hadn't Stuart moved on to developing the infinito in 2004 - anodised aluminium frame with a modular approach to control systems - available as O2, SCR and eCCRjust by swapping out the control portion of the head.

matt
17-02-2016, 09:25 AM
Based on somewhat recent ANSTI machine testing of the GolemGear Shrimp in OC mode I understand at 50lpm at 50m on Air its WOB was 3.24J/L but the tester also noted that this was under perfect lab conditions and even then it was at the extreme end of what the bail out valve was capable of supplying and that it failed at higher demand rates.

I think this is the problem with BOV's, if what we read is correct and ~100lpm is probable during the extreme time when you cannot get of the loop (the very situation the BOV is most useful for) then failing at higher (than 50lpm) demand isn't good.

Matt.

matt
17-02-2016, 09:28 AM
Nah, I am not going to provide a platform for you to slag off someone's business, go back through your collection of pictures, here is a clue, it is in Plymouth but it isn't the DDRC...

Needless to say the owner could give a toss what some random on a forum thinks.... To busy restocking his slatwall..

I don't think you ever named them, but I recall they had over 100 year experience between them. Is one of them called Dave?

I'm looking forward to a picture of your bike ;-)

Cheers
Matt.

Brad_Horn
17-02-2016, 09:42 AM
I think this is the problem with BOV's, if what we read is correct and ~100lpm is probable during the extreme time when you cannot get of the loop (the very situation the BOV is most useful for) then failing at higher (than 50lpm) demand isn't good.
Matt, correct. But the problem isn't with all BOVs! The problem for users is identifying the wheat from the chaff and therein those that can cope with the requirements of bailout.

matt
17-02-2016, 09:52 AM
Matt, correct. But the problem isn't with all BOVs! The problem for users is identifying the wheat from the chaff and therein those that can cope with the requirements of bailout.

There's also very limited choice. Whilst the best one for WOB may be the ALV it isn't suitable for my unit and it looks pig-ugly ;-)

The published information isn't good enough IMHO to help with selection either - you either go with the one that the manufacturer tested and accept that or go with an untested one with the fallacy that you can "feel" WOB changes yourself.

Whilst I think Alex enjoys the controversy I think his publishing of results is the right way to go to drive up standards. Just need to do it with some decorum whilst trying not to get banned on every forum! Not sure of his status on here, I'd quite like to see him post at least.

Matt.

BTS
17-02-2016, 11:03 AM
I don't think you ever named them, but I recall they had over 100 year experience between them. Is one of them called Dave?

I'm looking forward to a picture of your bike ;-)

Cheers
Matt.

Ah, this particular slight on Iains part was direct to the particular establishment and pre dates that episode...

It would be easier to compile a list of shops who do it to Ians standards than those that fall wide of the mark... It proves the existence of a higher level entity that we are not all dead...

MikeF
17-02-2016, 11:46 AM
TBF the majority of dive shops are in no way shape or form operated in a professional manner with regard to industry standards and Rinky Dink is indeed the order of the day in most establishments.

However as recreational divers are notoriously mean and would refuse to pay for a professional service they get what they pay for.

BTS
17-02-2016, 12:20 PM
TBF the majority of dive shops are in no way shape or form operated in a professional manner with regard to industry standards

I don't know where you shop but that certainly isn't true around here...

matt
17-02-2016, 01:02 PM
I don't know where you shop but that certainly isn't true around here...

If Rinky Dink is a pseudonym for Kitchen Sink then I've come across many of these in my time. There are not many places that are set-up like Rolls-Royce in the diving industry.

And neither is their ever likely to be as paying £50 for a 1st stage service and demanding a free cup of tea and a 10% discount isn't going to pay for that.

Doesn't necessarily equate to poor service, which I think is you point, Paul.

I think these two unrelated pictures that we are all familiar with - the first a back-street-garage, the other the main-agent. The former perhaps synonymous with better value for money than the latter.

Matt.

http://www.businesssalesonline.com/uploads/31856.jpg

http://www.dura.co.uk/images/audi/audi7.jpg

Woz
17-02-2016, 01:04 PM
I wouldn't trust a garage that neat.

Rolls Royce have a club. They painted their cylinders a few years ago and made a beautiful job. Sadly it had to be ground off to read the stamps.
Their boat store has, apparently, a shadow board for tools...

iain/hsm
17-02-2016, 04:11 PM
You once slagged of a shop not a million miles from here, I pointed it out to the owner, he said, and again I paraphrase 'Who the feck is that dick?'


BTS

Please understand the difference between "slagged of a shop not a million miles from here " as you say, and a safety issue pure and simple.

For background Im guessing it was in the plant room at DDRC. As I supplied and built all the mechanical system and as such I have a responsibility.

In the design and build process I supplied the two (2) unvalued grey test cylinders (with no valves fitted) shown in the photo for a separate application that was to pressurise the main chamber and entry lock with a chamber fire deluge system.

The project was cancelled after we fitted only the main lock deluge leaving the entry lock pipework and EL control equipment with us in Loughborough but the two bare cylinders supplied already to DDRC in Plymouth. An invoice for the two bare cylinders is available as is all the drawings and test docs for reference.

Some time later on a revisit I noticed that the two bare cylinders in question had now been valved by a local dive shop with an unknown valve to me and the component valves were not registered in the HSM Master Build Document.

Questions then came up with the DDRC safety officer.
1. Did the dive shop have the drawing of the cylinder ? No
2. Did the dive shop know the thread of the cylinder ? Probably not.
3. Did the dive shop have a calibrated plug gauge for the cylinder ? Don't Know
4. Where is the C of C showing the new valve thread? No idea
5. Why the mis thread where is the certification, Don't Know
6. Why the total lack of mechanical safety. No idea

And the 300 lib Gorilla in the corner of a question of: " Then why the heck is the valve in it left hanging half out" ….. Answer "beets me"


]http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/Picture%20135_zpsbiidzbig.jpg[/URL]

]http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/Picture%20134_zpsxigeggwd.jpg[/URL]]

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/Picture%20132_zpstokdbjux.jpg[/URL]


Now as this was a safety issue at the time and still is. I'm surprised at the dive shop owners reply:

To paraphrase you understand "Who the fleck is this dick"


You once slagged of a shop not a million miles from here, I pointed it out to the owner, he said, and again I paraphrase 'Who the feck is that dick?'

But understand this and to be clear there is no slight on my part all fully documented before and after nor are the standards mine BTS please understand written standards are set out for all under British Standards et al.

You on the other hand BTS can learn by it or snitch about it I care less.
But now that I trust I have answered your question fully and clearly
and if we are all done can we now get back to the BOV in question.

Or if you would like more detailed photos and the corresponding documents please don't hesitate to ask but kindly in a new thread.

For others and for general info are examples of cylinders we have supplied with valves fitted correctly and you will note a distinct lack of a six thread gap between the pillar valve and the bottle neck.

To add also at the DDRC is the Nitrox Bank in white taken at the time note the secure thread engagement of the taper valve and the correct match of threads :

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/Picture%20136_zpsjabrw8lo.jpg[/URL]


Again other cylinders we supplied to at DDRC with valves also showing both correct thread form and gas valve content identification.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM%20HP%20Cylinders%20010_zpszwwnddfi.jpg[/URL]

Further for reference other cylinders in other locations again supplied with valves all showing the same safety procedure of correct valve to cylinder, thread form and torque.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM%20Stock%20033_zps59i4cyh9.jpg[/URL]

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/DSCN0098_zpszohazjkn.jpg[/URL]

Finally for reference the HP gas storage area of DDRC Plymouth
so you can see the two cylinders in question above the white rack.

]http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/Picture%20131_zpsqyvcsy3j.jpg[/URL]

The fire deluge water tanks system are the dark blue vertical tanks on the right of picture.

l]http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/Picture%20121_zpsqckufsiv.jpg[/URL]

Now BRS if there are any omissions you would like me to add please ask private, if not when your done then can we crack on with the BOV question.

Kind Regards :^): Iain

Timw
17-02-2016, 04:26 PM
Bit smarter than when it was at Bovi...

BTS
17-02-2016, 04:53 PM
I don't see what the problem is, my suit inflate has PTFE tape on the thread yet has passed a test three times with two different people. Neither of them the owner of that particular operation... So it seems there are at least three people who would disagree that the tape is an issue.... four if you include me...


Questions then came up with the DDRC safety officer.
1. Did the dive shop have the drawing of the cylinder ? No
2. Did the dive shop know the thread of the cylinder ? Probably not.
3. Did the dive shop have a calibrated plug gauge for the cylinder ? Don't Know
4. Where is the C of C showing the new valve thread? No idea
5. Why the mis thread where is the certification, Don't Know
6. Why the total lack of mechanical safety. No idea

7. Did anyone other than you give a crap?
8. Was there any formal discipline toward the outfit that put the valve sin, if not you should be blurring out the sticker with their name on...

If your lambasting of outfits was interspersed with the odd post about someone other than you doing it correctly then maybe I would give your posts some credence but no, every one is a cowboy other than Iain, you may well have a good message to spread, unfortunately it is lost amongst the vitriol and self congratulation.

Woz
17-02-2016, 04:57 PM
I think the biggest problem you had with your suit inflate cylinder is it didn't come with a finger pointing at it.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7a/81/03/7a81039416abf34c2687e85dc5938942.jpg

iain/hsm
17-02-2016, 05:08 PM
Bit smarter than when it was at Bovi...

You don't say LOL

We tendered and won the contract to pull all the old chambers and stuff out of the old Fort Bovisand site as well as fit the new chambers and diving plant to the new centre under a separate contract.

Two week before we were about to begin to tear our the old chambers and equipment the then manager Roly Gough-Allen comes to me and says that there are a couple of additional terms:

The first was that we had to make good the building LOL and the second, if we hadn't finished before the end of the month we would have to agree to signing a new lease with Fort Bovisand themselves.

Now I couldn't imagine signing a contract with Dave Walsh for a Mars Bar wrapper.
Well I could but Angels fear to tread. Just for reference you understand he sets himself up later as the chamber at Bovi.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043004/Divers-swindle-NHS-250-000-bogus-claims-bends-treatment.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-11972035

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043004/Divers-swindle-NHS-250-000-bogus-claims-bends-treatment.html

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/NHS-fraud-whistle-blower-walks-free-court/story-12373409-detail/story.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1135614/Diving-school-boss-jailed-conning-NHS-250-000-claiming-cash-fake-victims-bends.html

Needless to say our relationship with DDRC (the charity) was our full support for the original charity aims and objectives
but not necessarily the same to those running it.

The DDRC manager RGA then gets 10K from off the charity and does it himself with the help of some local scuba bottle tester
As for making good the building he goes and gives Dave Walsh our chambers diver depth gauges in lieu of payment for making good the building. I kid you not.

Took a walk over there to Bovi some time later and the doors open with some lad working about take a look in and ask if we can have a look around, looks at his old chamber recognises our gauges, takes down the eight digit serial number and back at Derriford compares them to our calibration certificates. I kid you not. :^):Iain

Doomanic
17-02-2016, 05:15 PM
WTF has this got to do with BOVs?

If you want to wave your willy around start your own thread.

Woz
17-02-2016, 05:19 PM
I think they should quit their jibber-jabber.

iain/hsm
17-02-2016, 05:31 PM
I don't see what the problem is, my suit inflate has PTFE tape on the thread yet has passed a test three times with two different people. Neither of them the owner of that particular operation... So it seems there are at least three people who would disagree that the tape is an issue.... four if you include me...

7. Did anyone other than you give a crap?
8. Was there any formal discipline toward the outfit that put the valve sin, if not you should be blurring out the sticker with their name on...

If your lambasting of outfits was interspersed with the odd post about someone other than you doing it correctly then maybe I would give your posts some credence but no, every one is a cowboy other than Iain, you may well have a good message to spread, unfortunately it is lost amongst the vitriol and self congratulation.


Dude

You really need to understand what it is your talking about.

1. A taper thread needs both a torque and a thread engagement with the correct number of threads engaged. and both the valve thread diameter pitch and thread angle and TPI needs to be the same as the bottle, Look it up

PTFE tape simply seals the leak path

Your suit inflate cylinder can also have a number of different threads machined into the bottle be it

1. M18 x 1.5 ISO parallel thread
2. 19.8 to Din 477 taper thread
3. A .715 thread taper
4. A .600 taper thread
5. A 1/2" NGT thread
6 A 1/2" NPT thread

Would you like more pictures

7, As I stated before it was simply a safety issue,

8. No idea, the client DDRC contracted the service. We informed them of the issue and parts under pressure not in the Master Component Parts List. It was there responsibility we discharged ours.

No vitriol dude no lambasting just answering your questions

Now are we done now or do you have more questions, maybe your bike? LOL Iain


Iain

drysuitdiver
17-02-2016, 05:56 PM
2 questions

1) how does a picture of a valve in a cylinder show me torque
2) who the feck wears a brown jacket with elasticacted cuffs in the 21st century.
Ok I lied its 3
3 ) what the feck does the last X number of pages have to do with the OP.

Yes I am looking at buying a rebreather so looking at things now rather than later


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

BTS
17-02-2016, 06:04 PM
So Iain . What you are saying is there is nothing wrong with the tape or the valves it just wasn't part of you original spec?

iain/hsm
17-02-2016, 06:19 PM
Time for another nooby rebreather question from your own resident idiot.

I've seen that BOV's are a cause of debate but it usually quickly turns into a slagging match before I can read why.

So, TDF experts...why is there a big divide between loving them and hating them?


Hi Phate

To kick off . Three headings to discuss. I will be very specific give specific dates for precision and include photos. But I cant do this in one hit.

Again you can see by example the way these threads go and the divisions,
Makes you wonder if some folk on here are under instruction to fall in front of the train in order to derail truthful full and frank discussion and information.

But to begin Three things that need discussion IMHO on the BOV the first is the history of the BOV and how all the players are interrelated the second is the Apocolypse BOV and the third its performance and certification against everything else.

Later in the sub texts we can discuss the copies the self builds and the brand followers gurus and scuba champions.

The third is the valid reasons for using them together with a final option of discussing C02 if we indeed ever get that far or are allowed LOL

Background.

In 1984 The first, a Development Engineering project a British designed breathing simulator was designed and build in Aberdeen for testing hyperbaric breathing appears. The system was one of 3 built and was used to test equipment for the Norske Shell Troll field project.

In addition work for the Royal Navy MoD Challenger Equipment was undertaken then subsequently for GSOL, GEUT, (LAMA set)and DOE It then went over to the National Hyperbaric Centre Aberdeen.

One of which went down to the Royal Navy

On February 8th 1989 all the final build design drawings of a Bail Out Valve and regulator design design referred to then as a Dual Mode Mask DMM were sent from Development Engineering Aberdeen to Ian Himmens then at ARE Admiralty Research Establishment (Gunwharf site) subsequently called DRA or Defence Research Agency (in April 1991)
(Ian Himmens subsequently went on to form ANSTI ) who make similar test equipment for regulators and rebreathers, and the DMM design drawings were subsequently passed onto Apeks Marine to manufacture in what is called a "Gifted Design"

Slightly later on April 19th 1989 Cis Lunar an American rebreather design company filed there breathing apparatus mouthpiece for patent that was subsequently awarded on July 7th 1992 (TBC) I trust LOL Iain

iain/hsm
17-02-2016, 06:36 PM
2 questions

1) how does a picture of a valve in a cylinder show me torque
2) who the feck wears a brown jacket with elasticacted cuffs in the 21st century.
Ok I lied its 3
3 ) what the feck does the last X number of pages have to do with the OP.

Yes I am looking at buying a rebreather so looking at things now rather than later


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

1, You can have correct torque on a taper thread but to little thread engagement, the valve hangs out, What does that tell you?
You work it out LOL

2, I did its my jacket, well its a Rix Industries free issue jacket to be precise. You want one? Got tee shirts too if you like.
We supplied the three Rix Industries compressors to DDRC at the same time, You need pictures ROFL

3, I was answering BTW (My Little Pony) shows the difference of how deep you need to get taper threads on the valve in to engage the correct number of threads with the bottle. Torque and effective thread engagement its a technical thing.

Good luck with your rebreather. Iain

Brad_Horn
17-02-2016, 11:41 PM
There's also very limited choice. Whilst the best one for WOB may be the ALV it isn't suitable for my unit and it looks pig-ugly ;-)
Matt, there is a lot of choice for BOVs - just not all may be fit for the purposes of bailing out!
Of those that may be, I agree that there is limited choice however if it meets EN14143 in CC mode and EN250 for OC mode. This at least gives an indication that it might be at least minimally fit for the purpose of bailing out to:
Hollis BOV to 40m (limit of the Explorer's certification)
APD OCB to 50m (limit of the rating of the OC side of the OCB with any gas)
Poseidon BOV to 100m (but no published testing that I am aware of)
OSEL ALVBOV to 100m (and rated for use to 350m)

Once we get to the agreed minimum performance requirement (EN250 for OC) we can actually start looking at what offers truly exceptional performance as opposed to mediocre. If you know you need the best BOV for bailing out why are you settling for not good enough?

If your worried about looks of your kit when bailing out, really! Personally I would take function every time. That said, I take it you haven't seen the ALVBOV in the flesh to compare the engineering. When your wearing it you can't see the ALVBOV at all anyway, other than the tip of the OC lever.


The published information isn't good enough IMHO to help with selection either - you either go with the one that the manufacturer tested and accept that or go with an untested one with the fallacy that you can "feel" WOB changes yourself.
and you settle for this because?
Unless the testing is openly disclosed, do you really trust the manufacturer enough to weigh their own self interest less than your safety.... just scraping through EN250 for a bailout reg is not the goal - it is the starting line!
I would think that we both agree a 1J/L WOB high quality regulator like the Apeks or Poseidon ones are safe to bailout to on OC.
However is it safe to bail out onto a 2.5J/L / 3J/L / or 3.25J/L WOB regulator? Why wouldn't you upgrade it or demand better?

At the moment there is one (1) BOV, which as you know is OSELs ALVBOV, that openly has both its OC and CC WOB disclosed as well as open disclosure of the testing done on it. Warts and all. You should have this for every BOV on the market. As Iain mentioned, it is a simple duty of care issue. Or a case of the diver getting wise before handing over his hard earned dosh and demanding the testing to ensure he knows it is fit for purpose. Step 1) is to do this for the BOV, then step 2) is to do it for the whole CCR!

How many folk reading this thread, are currently diving with a BOV that they don't know will actually deliver sufficient gas, if they need it in an emergency?


Whilst I think Alex enjoys the controversy I think his publishing of results is the right way to go to drive up standards. Just need to do it with some decorum whilst trying not to get banned on every forum! Not sure of his status on here, I'd quite like to see him post at least.
Matt, what you have obviously missed is that Alex HAD to publish that testing as a stage of the Apoc's and Umbilical's and Incursion's CE certification. It shows that the manufacturer has actually done the R&D to ensure the Functional Safety of the kit as required by EN61508 in the original EN14143 standard. Not a single competitor has ever disputed the performance figures that DL/OSEL has published - ever wonder why! Actually controversially, ever wondered why no one is curious about the CO2 bypass from the flapper valves in BOV/DSVs that DL identified occurs at 100m.... and isn't a factor in the ALVBOV.

I'd be surprised if you saw Alex post on forums again. He did it to ensure plenty of public consultation during the R&D phase of the Apoc's evolution from prototype to production, primarily around 2008. He offered the Apoc at US$995, delivered them and now has the light at the end of the tunnel with the iCCR delivery. Recently he via OSEL openly offered sponsorship to this forum in the form of advertising and that was rejected due to reasons unknown. The two other major forums are now owned by rebreather manufacturers whose products fall well short of the Apoc's performance and I don't think they would take kindly to any direct comparison. It would mean that they would have to spend cash that can be better spent on marketing in getting the engineering of their product up to scratch! The only losers are rebreather divers themselves, but most can't see the wood for the trees. Once there is again a level playing field on forums, more focused on the safe engineering of rebreathers rather than their marketing, who knows!

Capt Morgan
17-02-2016, 11:44 PM
I'm thinking of fitting a Hollis BOV to see what it's like.
Have been told good reports about them.

Barrygoss
17-02-2016, 11:46 PM
I'm thinking of fitting a Hollis BOV to see what it's like.
Have been told good reports about them.

The Poseidon BOV works on the Kiss (seen it done) you just need a friendly Poseidon dealer to supply.

B

Capt Morgan
17-02-2016, 11:48 PM
The Poseidon BOV works on the Kiss (seen it done) you just need a friendly Poseidon dealer to supply.

B

Probably buy a used full six or seven for the same price :)

Brad_Horn
17-02-2016, 11:49 PM
I'm thinking of fitting a Hollis BOV to see what it's like.
Have been told good reports about them.
Just buy the MkII version! Mk1 allowed you to screw the inhale flapper to the exhale flapper (or vis versa) and that didn't work so well for one of the divers using it!

Capt Morgan
17-02-2016, 11:51 PM
Just buy the MkII version! Mk1 allowed you to screw the inhale flapper to the exhale flapper (or vis versa) and that didn't work so well for one of the divers using it!

When did the mk2 come out ?

ColinIOM
17-02-2016, 11:56 PM
I always use a BOV because if I get a CO2 hit I breathe a shit reg of breathable stuff rather than die.
A buddy of mine has invested in a CO2 monitor so he believes that means he doesn't need a BOV. I'm unconvinced so far but open to education on the idea.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I had the same choice, having had a CO2 hit at 65m I couldn't get breathing under control the CO2 monitor might have given me an earlier warning but thing progressed quite quickly, bailing out to off board gas just wasn't an option as breathing was too rapid, I'd have taken a lung full of water before getting a breath off the bailout.

My decision was to go for a BOV as this would give me a moment of pause and sufficient time to grab the off board ready for a quick switch.

Brad_Horn
18-02-2016, 02:52 AM
When did the mk2 come out ?
Shortly after fatality #329 http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_accident.php I understand. As the Prism2 BOV having been designed to allow threading of the flappers together was the root cause.
http://www.hollis.com/news/prism2-bov-quality-notice/

Slight oh sh!t moment on the behalf of the engineers who signed off on it as being able to mis-assemble a rebreather loop is theoretically an automatic EN14143 failure point. Might be why I keep hearing rumours of Hollis having fired their rebreather team and started again trying to get the P2 through CE testing. Usually this simple stuff is sorted at the prototype stage as long as you do some testing and not after you have flogged it to unsuspecting customers. There is a video somewhere of a P2 diver who didn't believe it was possible, proving to his horror, that it was.

iain/hsm
18-02-2016, 07:51 AM
Slight oh *** moment on the behalf of the engineers who signed off on it as being able to mis-assemble a rebreather loop is theoretically an automatic EN14143 failure point. Might be why I keep hearing rumours of Hollis having fired their rebreather team and started again trying to get the P2 through CE testing.

Brad.

I don't think this post will stay on track long LOL

But I don't think young chinese graduate engineers "sign off" on stuff now a days. Its the marketing folk in CA USA. If you look into this deeper most if not all are young graduate contract "design" draftsmen straight out of China/Taiwan university who are taught shape and style and just specialise in pretty much unnecessary external shapes and vector curves on a 3D drafting software with unnecessary fancy "grip" designs for the metal parts.

Regulators are no different. If you look at the UK our home grown regulator manufacturer Apeks they use the same practice. The market is pretty dumb why bother improving, EN250 and the later version of the rebreather rule book is pretty easy to achieve.

The internals, gas path and mechanicals they tend to leave alone and with China preferring to copy. And from there mindset having copied one side of the NRV it's pretty simple and quicker to reverse the drawing for the other side when your paid a few dollars an hour contract drafting rates.

Besides they are young contract engineers next week they are doing gym shoes the week after a plastic shield for the Power Rangers brand and a coffee pot. If they a real talented they get to design a vaping pipe.

Engineering Design now out of China/Taiwan is either copy or fashion. They start all wanting to design an I-phone case but end taking a short post at a diving place that mainly makes fins and wetsuits and gauges and the like. Not much different out side of China also. The Poseidon designer made vacuum cleaners for Electrolux before doing the MkV. Well at least it used to say that on his web site. Apologies for anyone I missed out LOL Iain

drysuitdiver
18-02-2016, 08:42 AM
Still can't work out how a picture shows me what the applied torque is. Maybe a picture of a gauge showing the torque being applied . But a picture on its own. No .

But you keep answering questions that are not being asked.it seems to be your thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

matt
18-02-2016, 10:56 AM
If your worried about looks of your kit when bailing out, really! Personally I would take function every time. That said, I take it you haven't seen the ALVBOV in the flesh to compare the engineering. When your wearing it you can't see the ALVBOV at all anyway, other than the tip of the OC lever.

I have not seen one, no. Will OSEL be showing one at the next dive show?

I don't think it compatible with my unit, is it (inspo)?



How many folk reading this thread, are currently diving with a BOV that they don't know will actually deliver sufficient gas, if they need it in an emergency?

Many. But they don't care?


Matt, what you have obviously missed is that Alex HAD to publish

Is there a legal requirement for that? If so I was unaware.


I'd be surprised if you saw Alex post on forums again. He did it to ensure plenty of public consultation during the R&D phase of the Apoc's evolution from prototype to production, primarily around 2008. He offered the Apoc at US$995, delivered them and now has the light at the end of the tunnel with the iCCR delivery.

Will you start a thread on iCCR so we can discuss when it shall be available?

Cheers
Matt.

nickb
18-02-2016, 11:09 AM
Still can't work out how a picture shows me what the applied torque is.It doesn't and wasn't meant to. It shows that, at the correct torque, the taper valve still isn't fitted correctly as there are too many threads showing. Implying that too few threads are actually maintaining the integrity of the pressure vessel.


But you keep answering questions that are not being asked.it seems to be your thing.He's answering questions (in his own inimitable way) that keep getting posed by one or two people trying to yank his chain and thereby making themselves look ridiculous.

Ian_6301
18-02-2016, 03:46 PM
So, if I've read the tea leaves right, Dr Gingernuts and his minion army of one are, what? Low on cash? Planning another scam?

Brad has broken cover to start the charm offensive on TDF, making friends and influencing people while deep in his Swiss bat cave lair, the carrot topped mastermind is warming up the pdf printer ahead of a veritable shitstorm of hardselling?

Can't wait till tomorrow when we can convene the TDF kangaroo court of Internet justice...

Mikael
18-02-2016, 03:52 PM
Ok I will bite. Who is the ginger one everyone is talking to and what his relationship with OSEL and Brad?
Just the short version please (I sense there is a lot of history here)?

jamesp
18-02-2016, 04:09 PM
Ok I will bite. Who is the ginger one everyone is talking to and what his relationship with OSEL and Brad?
Just the short version please (I sense there is a lot of history here)?


Do a site search for "Apoc rebreather"

Google "Dr Alex Deas", "OSEL"

There is not really a short version, "History" goes back best part of ~15 years.

notdeadyet
18-02-2016, 04:23 PM
At least that. He was taking public money while still based in Orkney.

Shame Gordon hasnt sorted out the Scuba World archives, the redhead had a lot of bodies buried there. The European Technical Dive Centre was the Apocalypse story of the 1990's.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

matt
18-02-2016, 04:53 PM
http://i61.tinypic.com/swsuc4.jpg

gobfish1
18-02-2016, 07:16 PM
Ok I will bite. Who is the ginger one everyone is talking to and what his relationship with OSEL and Brad?
Just the short version please (I sense there is a lot of history here)?

i could give you the short version , but the lawyers would be out again, lol

gobfish1
18-02-2016, 07:19 PM
http://i61.tinypic.com/swsuc4.jpg

are so thats what the apox unit looks like , feek he must be doing well i see that tyep of unit all over the place

Darren A
18-02-2016, 07:23 PM
Ok I will bite. Who is the ginger one everyone is talking to and what his relationship with OSEL and Brad?
Just the short version please (I sense there is a lot of history here)?

There is no short version :)

Have a start here

http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/archive/index.php/f-126.html

and here

http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-79728.html

see you in a few weeks :)

dwhitlow
18-02-2016, 07:26 PM
are so thats what the apox unit looks like , feek he must be doing well i see that tyep of unit all over the place

Yeah, but didn't they blow a load of money on defending an idiotic lawsuit that they won in the end?

gobfish1
18-02-2016, 07:29 PM
There is no short version :)

Have a start here

http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/archive/index.php/f-126.html

and here

http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-79728.html

see you in a few weeks :)

this one,s a bit slow , but picks in the end , funny as thay come ,
keep in mind dr death is a guru , he twist,s and turn ,s but still end up fooked
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showthread.php?2382-Can-this-be-clarified

iain/hsm
18-02-2016, 10:03 PM
Ok I will bite. Who is the ginger one everyone is talking to and what his relationship with OSEL and Brad?
Just the short version please (I sense there is a lot of history here)?

Mikael

Now you've done it. Now you have really gone and done it now.

That was your last chance, there is no turning back now. You should have taken the blue pill.
The story would have ended, and you would have woken up in your bed and believe whatever it was you want to believe.

But no, not you, no, you were warned, but no you have to go and take the red pill -
Now you stay in Wonderland and I have to show you how deep the rabbit-hole really goes.

Then we all have to try and make peace with Not Dead and Gobfish to calm them down. :sweat: iain

p.s. Maybe to calm the waters you may like to suggest to them a £10 trimix course

Brad_Horn
18-02-2016, 11:49 PM
I don't think this post will stay on track long LOL
How true you are Iain, after all diver safety really is such a useless topic....


Regulators are no different. If you look at the UK our home grown regulator manufacturer Apeks they use the same practice. The market is pretty dumb why bother improving, EN250 and the later version of the rebreather rule book is pretty easy to achieve.
Point. But at some point surely they found the storeman and said here, have this load of parts and see how many ways you can put it together before they flogged it. Any more that one and back to the drawing board they go.


I have not seen one, no. Will OSEL be showing one at the next dive show?
I don't think it compatible with my unit, is it (inspo)?
You might want to have a look at one sometime then and compare it to your OCB. There are subtle difference in the engineering which explain the wide gulf in performance in the favour of the ALVBOV.

OSEL will be showing it at the next diveshow after delivery of the iCCR.

Absolutely no point it being compatible with the Inspo as the loop flow is the wrong direction for professional units.


Many. But they don't care?
So what is the point of them fitting a BOV or even carrying bailout then if they can't use it in an emergency....


Is there a legal requirement for that? If so I was unaware.
There is an audit requirement for any rebreather claiming certification to EN14143:2003 which inherently includes a need to have met EN61508 to high SIL. What this means for the diver is that DL shouldn't have been the sole source for quality of testing that they have openly published for their rebreathers. In 'theory' there are 5-8 rebreathers who should have the same level of testing published, unfortunately only the DL ones are certified to EN61508 as Functionally Safe.

Or put another way, if you believed that your rebreather fully met the EN14143;2003 standard you have been ripped off.... Same as its DSV/BOV not coming with a retaining strap as required for to prevent the diver drowning in event that they are unconscious. A retaining strap is built into the ALVBOV 1) for diver safety and 2) cause it was a CE requirement to enable it to be sold in Europe for rebreather use.


Ok I will bite. Who is the ginger one everyone is talking to and what his relationship with OSEL and Brad?
Just the short version please (I sense there is a lot of history here)?
Alex Deas founded DL http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or.php which as you can easily see when you compare it to any other rebreather manufacturers site by far eclipses all of them (combined) on the amount of rebreather testing that they have achieved before release of their rebreathers.

On the court case he was involved in as an expert witness for the widow you can read about it here http://crossbowdiving.com/barrett Interestingly at no time in the past decade has anyone pointed out that he was technically wrong on any of the identified faults found with the design of that unit. It was also AFAIK the first time APD acknowledged that yes, the Inspo suffered from battery bounce and that it wasn't just a figment of owners imagination. There were some fascinating threads about it on the Inspo list in the years proceeding this.

In a project that started back in 2000 odd after he found out that the Inspo was designed to enable re-calibration of the O2 cells at 50m odd, Alex founded Deep Life Ltd to look into how to design a better rebreather. In 2005 this commenced the first commercial rebreather development for a saturation unit for primary life support down to 350m. Fully CE certified and delivered in 2011 to their client. OSEL was a spin out of this in 2008 in order to deliver the same functional safety in a sports rebreather for a competitive price.

I was invited to do some test diving on the first production units back in 2009 before becoming a director of OSEL more recently. https://www.facebook.com/Open-Safety-Equipment-Ltd-151298954899613/videos
and I have an open offer to buy any rebreather that meets the CE standard with no obvious flaws in its certification and has more than 30% of its testing for EN14143 openly published. Strangely no manufacturer has taken me up on this easy sale!

MikeF
19-02-2016, 12:11 AM
Brad,

Do you know how many of those 350m saturation rebreathers are in daily use and who with so I can possibly take a look at one?

Brad_Horn
19-02-2016, 02:13 AM
Do you know how many of those 350m saturation rebreathers are in daily use and who with so I can possibly take a look at one?
Mike, I know how many were manufactured by OSEL/DL, achieved CE and NORSOK certification and were delivered to the client. Last I heard though that client and a 3rd party were in court over contractual issues and the boat sailed without them.
http://www.europeanoilandgas.co.uk/article-page.php?contentid=14978&issueid=438

If you want to consider acquiring some for use, please email sales@opensafety.eu from your work and arrangements can be made. OSEL own the IP and tooling and have some in production.

If your more interested in the capability for recreational use, OSEL is releasing a stripped down version retaining the dual scrubber but with ALVBOV rather than KM hard hat and umbilical https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.708082909221212.1073741829.151298954899613&type=3

Elvis
19-02-2016, 06:55 AM
It's been a while since I've been on the forums. Always wondered if the vapourware that was the Apoc ever saw the light of day and if the usual band of "Useful Idiots" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot) were still around singing it's praises.
Quite pleased to see that no it hasn't and yes they are, it's like nothing has changed.

notdeadyet
19-02-2016, 07:42 AM
So I guess the answer is no, neither flavour has taken over the world.

How's the self inflating stab jacket faring?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Paul Evans
19-02-2016, 08:12 AM
OSEL will be showing it at the next diveshow after delivery of the iCCR.



Sooooo Not the NEXT dive show then?

Come on, give us date for release of the Iccr? last time you wombled on about this it was immanent?


Oh and why don't you publish, PDF will do, all the paper work relating to the IP......... Ownership documents, Design rights, Registered designs, trademarks even?? and by now you should have full patents for these unique bits of kit Alex has designed? (god knows this has being going on long enough for them to be completed by now).

Publish that lot openly?

jamesp
19-02-2016, 08:32 AM
OSEL will be showing it at the next diveshow after delivery of the iCCR.

That's like the directions to never, never land.

Second star on the right, and on `til morning.









Strangely no manufacturer has taken me up on this easy sale!

Where as the purchase of an iccr is?

gobfish1
19-02-2016, 11:21 AM
In order to complete the project and ensure the success of the USR, UMG opened a new office in St Petersburg, Russian Federation, in October 2011. The office employs 11 staff with many years of experience in mechanical engineering, electronic engineering and software design. This new office will also provide a base for the sales of UMG’s range of products and services into the Russian Federation and surrounding

say no fooking more , lol

notdeadyet
19-02-2016, 11:43 AM
Got to admire someone that spends millions developing a product for the subsea oil industry when the industry was going down the shitter.

All that Scottish development money did well. Must be a shitload of new Scottish jobs created. St Petersburg is well known for its Weegie community...

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Doomanic
19-02-2016, 12:14 PM
Absolutely no point it being compatible with the Inspo as the loop flow is the wrong direction for professional units.
So much irrelevant bollocks being spouted, how about you stop blathering on about "professional" units and explain why the "world's best BOV™" can't be reconfigured for the world's most popular unit?

MikeF
19-02-2016, 02:00 PM
Mike, I know how many were manufactured by OSEL/DL, achieved CE and NORSOK certification and were delivered to the client. Last I heard though that client and a 3rd party were in court over contractual issues and the boat sailed without them.
http://www.europeanoilandgas.co.uk/article-page.php?contentid=14978&issueid=438

If you want to consider acquiring some for use, please email sales@opensafety.eu from your work and arrangements can be made. OSEL own the IP and tooling and have some in production.

If your more interested in the capability for recreational use, OSEL is releasing a stripped down version retaining the dual scrubber but with ALVBOV rather than KM hard hat and umbilical https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.708082909221212.1073741829.151298954899613&type=3

I ask because I recall the USR was going to be evaluated at NYD in 2012/13 but I've never seen any results of that testing and wondered what happened as I heard a few weeks ago that the PDE concept was effectively dead.

Mikael
19-02-2016, 02:10 PM
Returning to BOVs how useful are these in the event of partially flooding the loop or more to point where you end up getting a caustic cocktail?

MikeF
19-02-2016, 02:22 PM
partially flooding the loop is no issue as the BOV isolates you from the loop when it goes OC so it's just like clearing an OC reg. caustic contamination of the BOV is a bit more of an issue and you'd need to get off it PDQ.

BTS
19-02-2016, 02:42 PM
Sodium hydroxide, the amount in lime, isn't a panic, it is a get of quickly.... you will get a soapy taste initially and if you get of within a short time frame not much else,

Lithium hydroxide would be a completely different matter...

Mikael
19-02-2016, 02:43 PM
partially flooding the loop is no issue as the BOV isolates you from the loop when it goes OC so it's just like clearing an OC reg. caustic contamination of the BOV is a bit more of an issue and you'd need to get off it PDQ.

From what I have read the mixture will linger in the mouth piece and breathing loop hence the need go to the BO. None the less could the BOV help at all in transitioning from loop to BO by turning on OC mode for a couple of breaths before making the switch? Coughing and spluttering uncontrollably while taking one mouth piece out to put another in sounds very dangerous.

With a DSV and partial flood how is water cleared from the loop?

Major Clanger
19-02-2016, 02:44 PM
Returning to BOVs how useful are these in the event of partially flooding the loop or more to point where you end up getting a caustic cocktail?

My loop partially flooded and I bailed to the bov without issue.

Major Clanger
19-02-2016, 02:46 PM
From what I have read the mixture will linger in the mouth piece and breathing loop hence the need go to the BO. None the less could the BOV help at all in transitioning from loop to BO by turning on OC mode for a couple of breaths before making the switch? Coughing and spluttering uncontrollably while taking one mouth piece out to put another in sounds very dangerous.

With a DSV and partial flood how is water cleared from the loop?

Do a flush through an OPV

dwhitlow
19-02-2016, 03:12 PM
From what I have read the mixture will linger in the mouth piece and breathing loop hence the need go to the BO. None the less could the BOV help at all in transitioning from loop to BO by turning on OC mode for a couple of breaths before making the switch? Coughing and spluttering uncontrollably while taking one mouth piece out to put another in sounds very dangerous.

With a DSV and partial flood how is water cleared from the loop?

The loop is more resistant to floods than you might think and there is plenty of warning and chance to act.

The exhale counterlung is an effective water trap and, as Gary said, a properly positioned OPV can be used to drive water out from this lung.

After the exhale lung water reaches the scrubber canister. In my inspo there is an additional water trap below the lime. Once water is the canister trim needs to be less flat to avoid the water getting into the lime and passing back through the inhale counterlung. It is still quite possible to stay on the loop with quite a lot of water in the loop although the WoB does rise and the deep gurgling from the scrubber is disconcerting.

gordyp
19-02-2016, 03:25 PM
Why does the direction of the gas flow make a difference to WOB ?


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notdeadyet
19-02-2016, 03:38 PM
Why does the direction of the gas flow make a difference to WOB ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's Brad's semantics bullshit he pulled on CCRx.

The rebreather with the best work of breathing flows right to left therefore a suitable BOV has to flow the same way.

In Brad's OSEL as a second language gibberish that translates to right > left flow is required for good WOB.

Why any of this lot are still allowed a platform is beyond me.

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gordyp
19-02-2016, 03:40 PM
It's Brad's semantics bullshit he pulled on CCRx.

The rebreather with the best work of breathing flows right to left therefore a suitable BOV has to flow the same way.

In Brad's OSEL as a second language gibberish that translates to right > left flow is required for good WOB.

Why any of this lot are still allowed a platform is beyond me.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Good stuff.

I wondered if there was some weird law of physics that meant gas only went one way.............


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jamesp
19-02-2016, 03:47 PM
It's Brad's semantics bullshit he pulled on CCRx.

The rebreather with the best work of breathing flows right to left therefore a suitable BOV has to flow the same way.

In Brad's OSEL as a second language gibberish that translates to right > left flow is required for good WOB.

Why any of this lot are still allowed a platform is beyond me.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

wonder what it works like on a Prism?

notdeadyet
19-02-2016, 04:02 PM
Good stuff.

I wondered if there was some weird law of physics that meant gas only went one way.............


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In Brad's case, gas does flow one way...

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gobfish1
19-02-2016, 04:10 PM
The loop is more resistant to floods than you might think and there is plenty of warning and chance to act.

The exhale counterlung is an effective water trap and, as Gary said, a properly positioned OPV can be used to drive water out from this lung.

After the exhale lung water reaches the scrubber canister. In my inspo there is an additional water trap below the lime. Once water is the canister trim needs to be less flat to avoid the water getting into the lime and passing back through the inhale counterlung. It is still quite possible to stay on the loop with quite a lot of water in the loop although the WoB does rise and the deep gurgling from the scrubber is disconcerting.

on my 2nd dive of noddy 1 i had a small ish flood from the start of my dive, some nice gurgling going on . blow it out a few time , 65min later we finnished the dive , i stripped down unit to see what the problem was , had a good bit of water in bottom of can , no problem with breathing ,

Timw
19-02-2016, 04:16 PM
Why does the direction of the gas flow make a difference to WOB ?


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It's all to do with the spin of the earth. If you go to the Southern Hemisphere you need to reverse your loop. Weren't you taught that on Mod 1?

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 05:57 PM
It's Brad's semantics bullshit he pulled on CCRx.

The rebreather with the best work of breathing flows right to left therefore a suitable BOV has to flow the same way.

In Brad's OSEL as a second language gibberish that translates to right > left flow is required for good WOB.

Why any of this lot are still allowed a platform is beyond me.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

No, To be frank, All rebreathers with the best WOB flow R-L
You just hav'nt been told why :grin::grin:

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 05:58 PM
wonder what it works like on a Prism?

The original UK design R-L

When the Yanks got to dick about with it L-R

You need pictures I guess LOL

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 05:59 PM
Why does the direction of the gas flow make a difference to WOB ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Will do that after we have done the other stuff

Brad_Horn
19-02-2016, 07:07 PM
Returning to BOVs how useful are these in the event of partially flooding the loop or more to point where you end up getting a caustic cocktail?
Very. Because you can retain the mouthpiece without transitioning through water, go to OC, purge the loop and then go back to CC mode.

And if you dive with an EAC you effectively mitigate the risk of caustic cocktail anyway.


Why does the direction of the gas flow make a difference to WOB ?
You tell me!

R&D $$$ is a factor....


The rebreather with the best work of breathing flows right to left therefore a suitable BOV has to flow the same way.
Wrong way around as usual Stuart. The Apoc has good (the lowest) WOB in part because of the ALVBOV which has the lowest WOB of any DSV/BOV.

All you need to drop your units WOB quite significantly is a couple of adapter collars to thread the DL P-Ports to your Mk15. Iain, can likely help you out there. the p-Ports are M52x1,5.


wonder what it works like on a Prism?
Probably extremely well. You can slide the breathing hoses up the rigid tubes to shorten them to work with the FMCLs and the DL P-Ports swivel well but are any still in commission?


So much irrelevant bollocks being spouted, how about you stop blathering on about "professional" units and explain why the "world's best BOV™" can't be reconfigured for the world's most popular unit?
Up to you to separate the wheat from the chaff.

In answer to your question:
1) Have a read of EN14143. You can't have a rebreather loop (DSV/BOV) that can be reversible flow for obvious safety reasons.
2) Please tell me a professional unit in use commercially or in-service with the military that is not right to left? No point making a BOV not usable by the clients..... the ALVBOV came out of the R&D from the Umbilical unit. Hence it being rated for use to 350m.
3) There is insufficient a market for OSEL to bother offering L-R flow.


I ask because I recall the USR was going to be evaluated at NYD in 2012/13 but I've never seen any results of that testing and wondered what happened as I heard a few weeks ago that the PDE concept was effectively dead.
The only dead bit is UMGs foray into rebreather commercialisation. All that is needed to field some is a valid P.O to OSEL. The last evaluation I was aware of one of the Umbilical units going through, was at QinetiQ circa 2011 where its end-tidal CO2 monitor picked up an issue with the setup of the unmanned test rig in real time during deep trials signing off delivery verification of DLs final contract milestone.

Doomanic
19-02-2016, 07:16 PM
Brad, are you a politician? It's not the reader's job to validate your argument, it's yours, so stop asking us to. I'm struggling to see any value to this thread in your posts.

Darren A
19-02-2016, 07:29 PM
I'm struggling to see any value to this thread in your posts.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EVxBEKg6L._SY300_.jpg

Ian_6301
19-02-2016, 08:20 PM
I can't recall off the top of my head which one it was, but I think it was either gobbers or NDY who used to do the potted recap of the OSEL story to date...

Perhaps whoever it was could do us the same honour once again...?

BTS
19-02-2016, 08:22 PM
Iain and Brad on one thread.... is the rapture due?

Jackdiver
19-02-2016, 08:31 PM
2) Please tell me a professional unit in use commercially or in-service with the military that is not right to left? No point making a BOV not usable by the clients.....


I'm under the impression that the Sentinel has been delivered to the military... That's not right to left...

Dave1w
19-02-2016, 08:35 PM
FGT5400?


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gordyp
19-02-2016, 08:56 PM
It's all to do with the spin of the earth. If you go to the Southern Hemisphere you need to reverse your loop. Weren't you taught that on Mod 1?

I think I was out doing a line of coke at that bit!


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Darren A
19-02-2016, 09:01 PM
I think I was out doing a line of coke at that bit!


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I understand left to right nostril is best. I know why, but I'm not telling you :)

gordyp
19-02-2016, 09:03 PM
.


You tell me!

R&D $$$ is a factor .

Well perhaps you could tell me, I can't see why it makes any difference at all.


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notdeadyet
19-02-2016, 09:23 PM
I think I was out doing a line of coke at that bit!


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i just need to read a post from Bradlex and I have to check to see if I've eaten any mushrooms today. Sadly, today is one of the days I haven't.

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 09:41 PM
So much irrelevant xxxxx being spouted, how about you stop blathering on about "professional" units and explain why the "world's best BOV™"


*****can't be reconfigured for the world's most popular unit?

Worlds most popular unit :think:

What The Draeger LAR V?***************** Yes it can ROFL :grin:


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM%20C02%20Display%2002%20LARV_zpsysgrouax.jpg[/URL]

notdeadyet
19-02-2016, 09:45 PM
Can I put one of those great computer controlled stab jackets on it? Then it would be my ideal rig.

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 09:55 PM
Can I put one of those great computer controlled stab jackets on it? Then it would be my ideal rig.

ROFL I thought antique stuff was more your thing. But if your wondering if it goes the right way round for the OSEL BOV
Well ********** Yes it can

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM%20Pic%20105_zpswzladl1d.jpg[/URL]

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 10:01 PM
Can I put one of those great computer controlled stab jackets on it? Then it would be my ideal rig.


You could also if you like try and do your own surface supplied Mk 15.5

But if your looking to do the same as OSEL and fit an umbilical to the Mk 15.5
You can do it, but it has been done by others before but with not much success.

Way to razzle dazzle.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM%20Pic%20126_zpst4y1rjns.jpg[/URL]

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 10:10 PM
Can I put one of those great computer controlled stab jackets on it? Then it would be my ideal rig.

And that was only with the 120 mtr umbilical
Now if you really really want to crack on down to 350 mtrs and be like Deeplife OSEL
You can do that too, and in this you can beat them, only just mind to 360 mtrs

Only one snag, and one problem

The snag is:
Coupling up three 120 mtr lengths of umbilical to make up your 360 metres
But only in slack water and on the bottom your standing on tip toes.

The problem is:

No one wants to coil it all back up when your done. Iain


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM%20Pic%20094_zpscnitq47l.jpg[/URL]

Janos
19-02-2016, 10:13 PM
To be fair, I quite liked the Apoc's BOV. I wanted to buy one but they wouldn't sell one separately so I bought the JJ Bov instead (this was before the JJ-CCR was released).

Janos

iain/hsm
19-02-2016, 10:23 PM
Good stuff.

I wondered if there was some weird law of physics that meant gas only went one way.............

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nothing to do with Physics its due purely to engineering.
If we had stayed on track with the BOV history I would have been clear but I didn't get chance

But here goes a quick answer.
The British and the Americans have a completely different way of doing technical drawings

In 1st angle projection the top view is under the front view, the right view is at the left of the front view. First-angle projection is the ISO standard and is primarily used in Europe.

In 3rd angle projection the left view is placed on the left and the top view on the top; and the features closest to the front of the 3D object will appear closest to the front view in the drawing. Third-angle projection is primarily USA

So when the Yanks were given British Design drawings for rebreathers they interpreted them back to front left to right.

So anyone not happy with this explanation. Iain

gobfish1
19-02-2016, 10:29 PM
And that was only with the 120 mtr umbilical
Now if you really really want to crack on down to 350 mtrs and be like Deeplife OSEL
You can do that too, and in this you can beat them, only just mind to 360 mtrs

Only one snag, and one problem

The snag is:
Coupling up three 120 mtr lengths of umbilical to make up your 360 metres
But only in slack water and on the bottom your standing on tip toes.

The problem is:

No one wants to coil it all back up when your done. Iain


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM%20Pic%20094_zpscnitq47l.jpg[/URL]

lol 350m umbilical, dont them deep sea divers use some sort of diving bell no more.

drysuitdiver
19-02-2016, 10:52 PM
Good stuff.

I wondered if there was some weird law of physics that meant gas only went one way.............


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gas only goes one way from my blow out valve 😜


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gobfish1
19-02-2016, 11:23 PM
your never going to see a free swimming commercial diver, put deas 50k++++ breather on a divers back and you still need comms/lifeline, hot water, lights , vid, pneumo and back up gas line . plus the twatting data line for all the shite in the death box,

i say 50k but im sure if ever deas gets a foot in the door it will cost million,s pounds, tell me who the feek is going to prep the thing, hand picked team of red heads , cos you avg commercial diver cant even pick the right size neck dam. or look after his 350m of entrapment line . id stick with valve on got gas , err not my feeking breathers playing up elo top side, elo.

for what , and for why ,

to save a few quid on gas lol suck my dick. unless you have a bov then suck on that, :sweat:

ps
you can blow me L to R or R to L no problem ,

can someone tell the number of ponys it will take to evacuate the water from a commercial diving helmet at 360m ,

id have a stab at two more than dea,s would need to dive the titanic :grin:

Paul Evans
19-02-2016, 11:23 PM
Nothing to do with Physics its due purely to engineering.
If we had stayed on track with the BOV history I would have been clear but I didn't get chance

But here goes a quick answer.
The British and the Americans have a completely different way of doing technical drawings

In 1st angle projection the top view is under the front view, the right view is at the left of the front view. First-angle projection is the ISO standard and is primarily used in Europe.

In 3rd angle projection the left view is placed on the left and the top view on the top; and the features closest to the front of the 3D object will appear closest to the front view in the drawing. Third-angle projection is primarily USA

So when the Yanks were given British Design drawings for rebreathers they interpreted them back to front left to right.

So anyone not happy with this explanation. Iain

Sort of and I,ll come back to that but your comments about the drawing standards make both us and the Americans look like cnuts..... Which is hardly the truth in reality!! I don't here of trident subs being lost on day to day basis :-D however I do have to listen to a cockwomble from Australia talk absolute shit every 6 months or so ;-) just saying ;-)

Now back to engineering fuck ups. Every now and then people get their newton's and pounds fucked up.. Not good on Mars approach ;-)

Now back to your first vs third angle projection debacle..... Prove it????

It's a bit like asking the cockwomble for title deeds or a deliver date isn't it ;-)

Cracking on m8



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Elvis
20-02-2016, 07:17 AM
It's Brad's semantics bullshit he pulled on CCRx.

The rebreather with the best work of breathing flows right to left therefore a suitable BOV has to flow the same way.

In Brad's OSEL as a second language gibberish that translates to right > left flow is required for good WOB.

Why any of this lot are still allowed a platform is beyond me.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk



It does in the northern hemisphere in the southern it needs to flow left to right.
[Arse TimW beat me to it]

EngelenD
20-02-2016, 07:50 AM
To be fair, I quite liked the Apoc's BOV. I wanted to buy one but they wouldn't sell one separately so I bought the JJ Bov instead (this was before the JJ-CCR was released).

Janos

So do I, they must have changed the policy because you can order from their site now.
Got mine delivered pretty quick.


Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

iain/hsm
20-02-2016, 08:40 AM
Now back to engineering xxxx. Every now and then people get their newton's and pounds xxxxx up.. Not good on Mars approach ;-)



On this Mars approach it should read:..... People getting their meters and feet messed up ??


(newton pounds is entirely different) but I guess you didn't know that LOL :nod: Iain

iain/hsm
20-02-2016, 08:48 AM
can someone tell the number of ponys it will take to evacuate the water from a commercial diving helmet at 360m

With or without a head inside it at the time.

gordyp
20-02-2016, 08:51 AM
your never going to see a free swimming commercial diver, put deas 50k++++ breather on a divers back and you still need comms/lifeline, hot water, lights , vid, pneumo and back up gas line . plus the twatting data line for all the shite in the death box,

i say 50k but im sure if ever deas gets a foot in the door it will cost million,s pounds, tell me who the feek is going to prep the thing, hand picked team of red heads , cos you avg commercial diver cant even pick the right size neck dam. or look after his 350m of entrapment line . id stick with valve on got gas , err not my feeking breathers playing up elo top side, elo.

for what , and for why ,

to save a few quid on gas lol suck my dick. unless you have a bov then suck on that, :sweat:

ps
you can blow me L to R or R to L no problem ,

can someone tell the number of ponys it will take to evacuate the water from a commercial diving helmet at 360m ,

id have a stab at two more than dea,s would need to dive the titanic :grin:

Shetland or Highland ponies?

londonsean69
20-02-2016, 08:57 AM
On this Mars approach it should read:..... People getting their meters and feet messed up ??

(newton pounds is entirely different) but I guess you didn't know that LOL :nod: Iain

Funnily enough, this came up the other day.

lb-seconds instead of newton-seconds. Nothing to do with metric/imperial distances, it was metric/imperial thrust that was the root cause.

A simple mix up in measurements threw out the thrust calcs by a factor of 4.45. This cock up led to the wrong trajectory being calculated by the computers.

I guess you didn't get past the headline "Orbiter crashes into surface" LOL ROFL, <any other acronyms favoured by children>.

Brad_Horn
20-02-2016, 09:15 AM
To be fair, I quite liked the Apoc's BOV. I wanted to buy one but they wouldn't sell one separately so I bought the JJ Bov instead (this was before the JJ-CCR was released).
Janos, That doesn't seem quite right! The first sports orders OSEL shipped were the standalone ALVBOV orders immediately the Umbilical unit got CE and therein the ALVBOV itself.

Its certainly been used actively on numerous random RB types for the past 5+ years https://www.facebook.com/151298954899613/photos/a.151310394898469.27197.151298954899613/151310698231772/?type=3&theater

BTS
20-02-2016, 11:31 AM
On this Mars approach it should read:..... People getting their meters and feet messed up ??



Gas or electric? Parking maybe?

Capt Morgan
20-02-2016, 12:26 PM
To be fair, I quite liked the Apoc's BOV. I wanted to buy one but they wouldn't sell one separately so I bought the JJ Bov instead (this was before the JJ-CCR was released).

Janos

Every one has a chance to get one of these now.

*Link* (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/rebreather-BOV-ADV-plus-hose-/222024279798?hash=item33b1ada6f6:g:EGAAAOSwx-9WwOGd)

nickb
20-02-2016, 12:31 PM
Every one has a chance to get one of these now.

*Link* (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/rebreather-BOV-ADV-plus-hose-/222024279798?hash=item33b1ada6f6:g:EGAAAOSwx-9WwOGd)"You can find out more info by entering 'Open revolution apoc' into the Google search bar........"

Good luck with that, the auction finishes tomorrow evening. You won't even scratch the surface.....

Capt Morgan
20-02-2016, 12:36 PM
"You can find out more info by entering 'Open revolution apoc' into the Google search bar........"

Good luck with that, the auction finishes tomorrow evening. You won't even scratch the surface.....

I didn't chance Google as I guess the results could be a dive forum or in PDF format ;)

notdeadyet
20-02-2016, 12:48 PM
So did the auto bail out acme instant super save your life function ever work or was all the WOB shite just a distraction?

I think I know the answer without another dose of Bradgerish waffle.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Tens
20-02-2016, 06:15 PM
auto bail out acme instant super save your life function

Hee! Forgot about that!

notdeadyet
20-02-2016, 07:32 PM
Hee! Forgot about that!

Apparently the redhead has as well...

gobfish1
20-02-2016, 07:54 PM
Apparently the redhead has as well...

apparently its all working as it should , just need to sort that wee matel spring out, then the down loading of the upload,s
will begin ,:nod:

Tens
21-02-2016, 10:07 AM
apparently its all working as it should , just need to sort that wee matel spring out, then the down loading of the upload,s
will begin ,:nod:

Nope, my thermometer still tells me it's not freezing in hell.

EngelenD
21-02-2016, 10:26 AM
Lots off talking here, not a lot about the BOV apparently . :)


Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

notdeadyet
21-02-2016, 10:29 AM
Lots off talking here, not a lot about the BOV apparently . :)


Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

Funny, every derailed rebreather thread seems to have a common factor in it... Bradlex and his sales pitches.

Doomanic
21-02-2016, 10:52 AM
Stu's right, 22 pages, a lot of it irrelevant willy waving, bitching and blathering.

Woz
21-02-2016, 11:01 AM
I do have to question the commercial nous of a company that makes what is claimed as a really good BOV then makes it with the gas flow the opposite way round from the majority of the rebreathers out there.

Be like making a really really good nut and bolt. With a left hand thread.

londonsean69
21-02-2016, 11:12 AM
Stu's right, 22 pages, a lot of it irrelevant willy waving, bitching and blathering.

You need to set it to 40 posts per page ;)

I've only got 6 pages showing.

Doomanic
21-02-2016, 11:15 AM
If you'd read the whole thread you'd realise that you are so very, very, wrong. Bradlex has made it clear that any rebreather that flows the opposite way to the WonderBov™ is only a toy and is considered irrelevant. I think it's about time we all got on the Apocabus, stopped playing at diving and spent the rest of our (very dull) lives at 6m.

notdeadyet
21-02-2016, 11:53 AM
Or maybe forums should just finally ban the fooker and anyone associated with the whole dog and pony show.

They've contributed fuck all, pissed a few hundred grand of taxpayers money up the wall and used dead divers as a marketing tool.

Why forum owners havent wised up to their milking threads for cheap marketing is beyond me.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

EngelenD
21-02-2016, 12:22 PM
Funny, every derailed rebreather thread seems to have a common factor in it... Bradlex and his sales pitches.

But ... Every fire needs oxygen to burn.
:)




Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

Turbanator
21-02-2016, 12:31 PM
Tbh, my opinion is the same as the beginning of the thread. I've dived a Classic Kiss and a Classic Inspo, nowhere as much as others here but am still to see a convincing argument against a BOV.
I don't buy the 'false sense of security' argument.

jturner
21-02-2016, 12:51 PM
Tbh, my opinion is the same as the beginning of the thread. I've dived a Classic Kiss and a Classic Inspo, nowhere as much as others here but am still to see a convincing argument against a BOV.
I don't buy the 'false sense of security' argument.

+1. They're not a magic immortality-providing device but they add more positives than negatives and that's a good thing IMHO. I have yet to hear any argument against them that stands up to scrutiny.

iain/hsm
21-02-2016, 12:55 PM
I do have to question the commercial nous of a company that makes what is claimed as a really good BOV then makes it with the gas flow the opposite way round from the majority of the rebreathers out there.

Be like making a really really good nut and bolt. With a left hand thread.

Allow me to answer this again, to repeat.

1, The majority of rebreathers manufactured are for use with the military
2, If you design primarily for that majority military market, you need follow their design brief.
3, There is no "claim" to what OSEL/Deeplife have designed and manufactured, it is what it is, a fully independently certified BOV.

For further information. Read the Pdf :grin:Iain

bottle maker
21-02-2016, 01:11 PM
Allow me to answer this again, to repeat.

1, The majority of rebreathers manufactured are for use with the military
2, If you design primarily for that majority military market, you need follow their design brief.
3, There is no "claim" to what OSEL/Deeplife have designed and manufactured, it is what it is, a fully independently certified BOV.

For further information. Read the Pdf :grin:Iain

But what is the potential market for this BOV? Surely the military purchase complete units and do not add third party components. It is us recreational divers that like to change things from how we bought them to how we want them to work. I would not have thought (having never seen one in the flesh) that to change the gas flow of the BOV 180 degrees was not a hugely expensive retooling operation in comparison to the R&D that has been spent on the original design. This would open up the recreational market, getting the companies products seen at dive sites.

If it worked as advertised at reasonable cost lest than £600.oo I think people would buy it.

Graham.

Graham.

MikeF
21-02-2016, 01:16 PM
TBF Deeplife are not alone in being economical with the truth and talking shite in the rebreather game, and to play devil's advocate they have at least done some testing and released some test results unlike some other manufacturers who just say along the lines of 'our rebreather/BOV/whatever has market leading performance', leaving people to part with cash to get their hands on products and only then discover how shit they really are, in fact some of the digging of dirt of competitors has proved informative.

But they should cut the crap and spend less time on forums and more time developing and releasing quality products that offer real world benefits to the consumer. Betamax was technically better than VHS and phillips could have banged on forever that their way was better and everyone else was wrong but they went with the flow and sold VHS recorders once they saw where the market was, this R-L, L-R argument is just bollocks, and as woz said, if you want to sell your BOV in a market dominated by units that flow the opposite way to your design, change it, bring out a sport version if you think the gas direction is not suited to 'professional units'.

However I can't help but feel that no matter how good a product DL could bring to market, given what has gone on it would be an uphill struggle to sell as credibility and trust within the potential customer base is low after the apparent (I say apparent as a lot of rumour speculation and playing with multiple companies to hide the cash flow seems to swirl around this saga) :

- pissing away of taxpayers cash
- much trumpeted documentation that is actually pretty shite when you read some of it.
- testing by a seemingly phantom russian test house
- constant criticism of the competition that have brought products to market (and in some cases released test results)
- damage done to rebreather diving by supporting spurious claims as an expert witness in in American court cases brought by chancing lawyers encouraging bereaved families
- constantly repeating the same shite on forums for almost 10 years whilst the world moves on
- speculation as to the cause of death of divers as a marketing tool.

On the last one I don't mind the publishing of facts, in fact the list is probably the best single source of statistics on dead rebreather divers but I do object to the speculation in some cases (some of them personal friends), where there is a definite spin on what occurred which leads me to suspect that other cases may be equally spun.

Logun
21-02-2016, 01:20 PM
I do have to question the commercial nous of a company that makes what is claimed as a really good BOV then makes it with the gas flow the opposite way round from the majority of the rebreathers out there.

Be like making a really really good nut and bolt. With a left hand thread.

Have to disagree with you there Woz.

Its like making a really good nut with a left hand thread, then talking lots about how you will make an awesome bolt to go with it and just not quite getting that far. :D

jamesp
21-02-2016, 01:24 PM
have to disagree with you there woz.

Its like being a prize wing nut , then talking lots about how you will make an awesome bolt to go with it once the testing of replacement unobtanium material for the out of date parts that are on the shelf has been undertaken. :d

ftfy

matt
21-02-2016, 02:43 PM
Allow me to answer this again, to repeat.

1, The majority of rebreathers manufactured are for use with the military
2, If you design primarily for that majority military market, you need follow their design brief.
3, There is no "claim" to what OSEL/Deeplife have designed and manufactured, it is what it is, a fully independently certified BOV.

For further information. Read the Pdf :grin:Iain

But why come onto a recreational dive forum and spout off about a product that is not intended for this market?

No one here is buying for the military. No one cares about that market. I think that's the point.

Hope you're well Iain :-)

Matt.

matt
21-02-2016, 02:44 PM
Lots off talking here, not a lot about the BOV apparently . :)


Sent by my rEvo scrubber using a shearwater Nerd

All the questions on the BOV are asked and answered, no?

Which one are you waiting for a reply on?

iain/hsm
21-02-2016, 03:19 PM
But what is the potential market for this BOV? Surely the military purchase complete units and do not add third party components. It is us recreational divers that like to change things from how we bought them to how we want them to work. I would not have thought (having never seen one in the flesh) that to change the gas flow of the BOV 180 degrees was not a hugely expensive retooling operation in comparison to the R&D that has been spent on the original design. This would open up the recreational market, getting the companies products seen at dive sites.

If it worked as advertised at reasonable cost lest than £600.oo I think people would buy it.

Graham.

Graham.


Graham

You have two question I will answer from two different angles. Sports and Military but I tell you now they don't mix.

1st Sports:

1. Make any product you like for use with an amateur rebreather brand and the recreational manufacturers will cry foul. You cannot fit them or add them to any existing CE manufacturers stuff without falling foul of the CE directive, or you are faced with retesting again with the sports rebreather junk attached.

Further make a unique component for any of the recreational rebreathers around and your in trouble
Bob Howell found the extent of that with "Bob's Bits" didn't take AP long to copy and shut him down..
OSEL found that out with non return valve design, didn't take REvo long to copy.
Shameless underhand deceitful copying. And even then if they cant copy they make sure you cant sell it under the divisive CE directive that controls the recreational market and prohibits third party components.

2nd Military:

1. Potential market. A BOV and gag strap or FFM potential is every military rebreather on the planet.
However not everyone is "our" market, Iran, China, and the most of the Middle East are out, apart from Israel.
The market in reality is very limiting and selective, USA Canada France etc being the acceptable markets. But with each of those markets also having there own preferred supplier Carlton, Fullerton, etc so the slice of the cake is further reduced.

Below by way of example a BOV designed and built in 1986 for DGUW it ended up being fitted to the Mk16.
If we had stayed on course I would have discussed its history and design fully but pointless now with all the junk posters so I am showing purely for purpose of date stamping. It was manufactured in 1986 some two years after the first breathing simulator and well before any and all or the recreational sport rebreathers.

If you wish I still have on file the full breakdown of development cost, tooling and parts costings, also the design development diving trial and alternative options. But the flow direction stands.
However I agree it wouldn't cost much if anything to change the flow but why bother who on this forum wants 30 year old design from an old guys box of stuff that would beat most of the gear you buy today?

Drawing enclosed below are an original master drawings in Pen, a design draft in Pencil and a copy assembly drawing in ink, Sorry no Autocad DXF file or digital camera photo in 86
It was done long before all of that existed. But as a BOV it stands.
R-L, L-R all depends on who is paying the bills.

Copy that :nod: LOL

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/IMG_2416_zpseyiulocl.jpg[/URL]

iain/hsm
21-02-2016, 08:08 PM
FGT5400?

Good question quietly slipped in there. Hope you like the answer:

The FGT 5400 is indeed L-R but but but we all know its really just the Draeger Atlantis 1 to the Dolphin to the FGT 5400 made in black. However what your not aware of is the original Draeger design they all came from was a military rebreather called the MCM100

Shown in the photo below is the original MCM 100 ( MCM: Mine Counter Measure) for reference

The good looking chap in the photo with what I believe maybe the first ever in public view of the infamous MCM 100 would have done better with a matching black wet suit. However I know him well and he hasn't improved his sense of fashion or flair.



]http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM14091995img014.jpg[/URL]

You will however notice the R-L flow and the parts that were used for the recreational Atlantic and Dolphin variants.

Why did Draeger change the flow for the recreational market is another story.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSMimg14091995013.jpg[/URL]


The pool is open to the public Wednesdays and Fridays and on Saturday morning we have a Mom's and kids splash about. Kids under 12 get to use the Iron Man suit. I guess it would "suit" some of the little "boys" on this forum better. Iain


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/iainhsm/HSM14091995img0173.jpg[/URL]

Brad_Horn
21-02-2016, 08:20 PM
I do have to question the commercial nous of a company that makes what is claimed as a really good BOV then makes it with the gas flow the opposite way round from the majority of the rebreathers out there.
Because it is commercially viable that way. As Iain has pointed out, your majority of rebreathers may be a little skewed when you actually look at the total market and weigh it by per unit cost.

I'm just curious why you duplicated the design of a mediocre performance BOV? Have an offline chat to the AuroraBlue designer...


but am still to see a convincing argument against a BOV.
Best I have seen is rEvo's - they can't make one so have written their training procedures and indoctrinated their users, that they won't need one as"you can't get a CO2 hit on an rEvo due to the dual scrubber". Not sure how an axial scrubber with a cooling chamber in the middle stops you having a CO2 issues but are well....


But what is the potential market for this BOV? Surely the military purchase complete units and do not add third party components.
Have a read of pretty much any decent Navies Dive manual for deep dive MCM operations and let me know what they are using for bailout.

FYI OSEL demonstrated their Incursion eCCR well before the Apoc even became an option...


It is us recreational divers that like to change things from how we bought them to how we want them to work.
So why do you need L to R gas flow then?



I would not have thought (having never seen one in the flesh) that to change the gas flow of the BOV 180 degrees was not a hugely expensive retooling operation in comparison to the R&D that has been spent on the original design. This would open up the recreational market, getting the companies products seen at dive sites. If it worked as advertised at reasonable cost lest than £600.oo I think people would buy it.

Part of the factor for why the ALVBOV has such a low WOB is that it is fully injection molded. The expense therefore is upfront in the tooling, certification and R&D to get the high performance. DL paid for this out of their commercial rebreather R&D contract.

If you put together a sufficiently high enough # P.O. I could probably get OSEL to manufacturer a L to R BOW with the same WOB and certification and testing but I doubt it would be for £600.....
If would probably just be cheaper for OSEL to acquire your unit, stick the ALVBOV on it, test it and try to get it certified for use R - L.


to play devil's advocate they have at least done some testing and released some test results unlike some other manufacturers who just say along the lines of 'our rebreather/BOV/whatever has market leading performance', leaving people to part with cash to get their hands on products and only then discover how shit they really are, in fact some of the digging of dirt of competitors has proved informative.
I like your use of the describer "some". Any idea where I can find where a rebreather manufacturer has documented more testing? Testing that actually stands up to investigation....


But they should cut the crap and spend less time on forums and more time developing and releasing quality products that offer real world benefits to the consumer. Betamax was technically better than VHS and phillips could have banged on forever that their way was better and everyone else was wrong but they went with the flow and sold VHS recorders once they saw where the market was, this R-L, L-R argument is just bollocks, and as woz said, if you want to sell your BOV in a market dominated by units that flow the opposite way to your design, change it, bring out a sport version if you think the gas direction is not suited to 'professional units'.
If the BOV with the lowest available WOB doesn't offer sufficient real world benefits, I am not sure what else OSEL can do for you!
Off topic but add in flood recoverable loop, mitigation of caustic cocktail through appropriate scrubber media selection and fail-safe oxygen addition all seem to offer real world benefits.




- speculation as to the cause of death of divers as a marketing tool.

On the last one I don't mind the publishing of facts, in fact the list is probably the best single source of statistics on dead rebreather divers but I do object to the speculation in some cases (some of them personal friends), where there is a definite spin on what occurred which leads me to suspect that other cases may be equally spun.
Mike, you do know don't you that DL publish it because they have to! They had to because it was a requirement to ensure CE certification to EN14143:2003....

The accident list is a living document that you can influence... Email DL on the address they provide if you know there is something wrong http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_accident.php

The only spin I am aware with the list is that DLs engineers are, somewhat uniquely, looking at the root cause of the accident and how it plays into the rebreathers design. Scroll down it and look for the cases that might not exist if the unit had a BOV and/or a retaining strap to prevent the diver drowning. They just accept any human factors and training issues that sit ontop of this as a given.


Stu's right, 22 pages, a lot of it irrelevant willy waving, bitching and blathering.
and not one comment asking why your happy to settle for BOVs with mediocre performance and are not demanding better from your respective units manufacturer!

notdeadyet
21-02-2016, 08:44 PM
Because it is commercially viable that way. As Iain has pointed out, your majority of rebreathers may be a little skewed when you actually look at the total market and weigh it by per unit cost.

So why keep banging on about it then? Every thread around the subject here or anywhere you've not been banned inevitably gets sidetracked on to how great the WOB on your BOV is and how crap everyone else's is. Yet you refuse to make a L/R flow version of it.

Applying your love of semantics, that simply means you don't make a better BOV than anyone else can. What makes you better than JJ, Golem, etc? You don't have a product that beats any of theirs. You're in the same boat.

gobfish1
21-02-2016, 08:51 PM
Off topic
1 Add in flood recoverable loop, (maybe)

2 Mitigation of caustic cocktail through appropriate scrubber media selection (cost to much) and can you still breath your media when is in a bucket of water , no i think not
the scrubber times are shite , in not having your The Norsok standards .
whats ok for a hard hat diver is not ok for a free swimming diver , more bullshit,

3 Fail-safe oxygen addition ( :rofl::rofl: ) what was the guys names that all had them sticky oxygen addition,s ) 57M deep on a wreck , one of them i think

You have a good WOB BOV , but even then no fooker want.s it , (as it has the Wrong gas flow)

The red head is the kiss of death , shitelife and openbollox ltd cant be trusted , the red head is A habitual liar ( i have several documents to back that up ) Lord Clarke and the p45 is not even in the several as clarke stopped just short of calling the red head a out and out liying c6nt.

Spend say 15 more years plugging this box of death and you maybe able to sell a few , as most of us that know your bull shit will be to old to wipe are own arse and wont give a fook ,

We seem to have two threads going iain with some historica fact.s / and openscab with the bullshit,

matt
21-02-2016, 08:52 PM
So why do you need L to R gas flow then?

Which recreational rebreather with R to L flow that has recreational training available are you suggesting with these comments?


If the BOV with the lowest available WOB doesn't offer sufficient real world benefits, I am not sure what else OSEL can do for you!
Off topic but add in flood recoverable loop, mitigation of caustic cocktail through appropriate scrubber media selection and fail-safe oxygen addition all seem to offer real world benefits.

Do OSEL still only provide a 6m O2 unit, Brad? Probably don't need a BOV at 6m. Snorkel will do.


Mike, you do know don't you that DL publish it because they have to! They had to because it was a requirement to ensure CE certification to EN14143:2003....

You've said this before - can you post the extract that mandates publishing of data?

Doesn't the same standard state that the faceplate should include a system to aid ear clearing?


and not one comment asking why your happy to settle for BOVs with mediocre performance and are not demanding better from your respective units manufacturer!

Availability. If DL will not make a compatible unit then one must pick from those manufacturers who do make a compatible unit; whether it is the best-of-breed, or not.

Matt.

Woz
21-02-2016, 08:57 PM
Just turn it upside down. Job done.

iain/hsm
21-02-2016, 09:00 PM
So why keep banging on about it then? Every thread around the subject here or anywhere you've not been banned inevitably gets sidetracked on to how great the WOB on your BOV is and how crap everyone else's is. Yet you refuse to make a L/R flow version of it.

Applying your love of semantics, that simply means you don't make a better BOV than anyone else can. What makes you better than JJ, Golem, etc? You don't have a product that beats any of theirs. You're in the same boat.

Is this your final bathwater speech, or have we more to go? LOL

Can we move on anytime soon please some of us have BOV's to talk about and like it or not the Apocalypse is presently the only BOV independently rated both CE and Norsok to 350 MSW

JJ. Golem are no way close to the ALVBOV and frankly not even close to the little 30 year old one.

No one is interested in safety. Chew on the Truth in that. R-L rules. LOL

How about I put a OSEL ALVBOV on that cranky old Mk 15 of yours.
It would make you grin, it really would. Iain

iain/hsm
21-02-2016, 09:07 PM
Just turn it upside down. Job done.

Yeah sure, do that and we have another 29 pages on hose configuration and look where that got you BSAC lot.

Major Clanger
21-02-2016, 09:10 PM
I have no idea if my rb is right to left or left to right according to which interpretation of which standard, , nor do I care, all I do know is that it has a fecking good BOV and I wouldn't be without it. Purpose built for the units it sits on. Feck the rest...http://www.megccr.com/rebreather-products/the-isc-bov/

Doomanic
21-02-2016, 09:16 PM
OK, so what are the implications of swapping the flow direction on an Inspo?
Obviously you'd need to swap the t-pieces and MAVs over, so probably better done with BMCLs so the O2 inject is still on the right with the hoses crossing behind the diver. Spin the scrubber bucket so the exhale is on the left. Probably have to change a few hoses too.

What could possibly go wrong... :lol:

matt
21-02-2016, 09:17 PM
I have no idea if my rb is right to left or left to right according to which interpretation of which standard, , nor do I care, all I do know is that it has a fecking good BOV and I wouldn't be without it. Purpose built for the units it sits on. Feck the rest...http://www.megccr.com/rebreather-products/the-isc-bov/

L2R with the O2 on the inhale side?

iain/hsm
21-02-2016, 09:18 PM
I have no idea if my rb is right to left or left to right according to which interpretation of which standard, , nor do I care, all I do know is that it has a fecking good BOV and I wouldn't be without it. Purpose built for the units it sits on. XXXX the rest...http://www.megccr.com/rebreather-products/the-isc-bov/



I have no idea

Never a truer word spoken.

gordyp
21-02-2016, 09:20 PM
I have no idea if my rb is right to left or left to right..http://www.megccr.com/rebreather-products/the-isc-bov/

Depends which way you put it on.

Major Clanger
21-02-2016, 09:22 PM
[QUOTE=Major Clanger;294600]I have no idea if my rb is right to left or left to right according to which interpretation of which standard, , nor do I care, all I do know is that it has a fecking good BOV and I wouldn't be without it. Purpose built for the units it sits on. Feck the rest...http://www.megccr.com/rebreather-products/the-isc-bov/




Never a truer word spoken.

I never felt the need to swallow a book on design to know how to use the unit safely.







Sent from my ivory tower using Tapatalk

matt
21-02-2016, 09:22 PM
OK, so what are the implications of swapping the flow direction on an Inspo?

It's not tested, I guess is the main one. The ADV would be on the exhale side, the gas would be analysed pre-scrubber. The water-trap on the R would be off less benefit. Perhaps more moisture on the cells? Dunno.


Obviously you'd need to swap the t-pieces and MAVs over, so probably better done with BMCLs so the O2 inject is still on the right with the hoses crossing behind the diver. Spin the scrubber bucket so the exhale is on the left. Probably have to change a few hoses too.

What could possibly go wrong... :lol:

And now the cells are at the bottom when the diver is prone. As you say, what could go wrong! ;-)

I heard MP recently saying the reason for putting the asymmetric-threads is that the CE requires reverse-loop testing if it can be assembled that way.

Matt.