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View Full Version : Trimming Bail Out Cylinders on CCR



Paulo
01-12-2015, 10:54 AM
As a spin off from the OCB thread, how do people manage to trip their bailout cylinders on CCR?

I would be particularly interested in how people are trimming their FMCL APD units

Woz
01-12-2015, 11:29 AM
Well I went in with a couple of cylinders at the weekend and they trimmed out just fine. I have an old style box so have 3kg in the pouch on the lid, 2kg inside the box at the top in the middle and another 2kg on the left. Trims out bang on with that without a weightbelt.

Oh the box has a stainless backplate, lift bar and baseplate all from KT too.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/12316583_10153315006019716_4445336837313109484_n.j pg?oh=b96cc0fa367e8be9585358f8391bf31b&oe=56D73B7F

Digger
01-12-2015, 11:54 AM
On CCR, because the bailout stays full (most of the time!) just using AL40s and 80s tends to be the answer, they sit fairly neutral and stay put under the arm reasonably well when clipped off.

Most of the work trimming the cylinder is about getting the stage rigging and shoulder D-ring right, once that is done the hip D ring can be almost anywhere and works out ok with AL cylinders. Obviously it helps to get the hip clip length right, and I personally put the D-ring as far back as I can comfortably clip and unclip the cyl, then they sit where I want them under my arm instead of dropping down too much.

Everyone I've seen who clips to the D ring on the side of the wing ends up with the cylinder sitting quite nose down,

All this said, you can try and make it streamlined but with front mounted counterlungs and the size of the unit on the back it is never going to be particularly neat and streamlined until you get BMCL and the standard harness has to go to clean up the front too.

Digs.

gobfish1
01-12-2015, 12:09 PM
i dont have side d rings on my unit , d rings are under the tits above the brake ,
bottom d rings i added to the wasteband as far back as needed

gobfish1
01-12-2015, 12:30 PM
waz

i have the auto air in my shit bin and just use a small power inflater , also have looped in a bunge out of the way as i never use it much , i cross the hand sets in the box make them a bit shorter , one is clipped down to a ring on the wasteband next to the brake , other one the matser / the shorter of the two i have hanging down fixed in on one of my dill gauge valcro,s

Woz
01-12-2015, 01:07 PM
waz

i have the auto air in my shit bin and just use a small power inflater , also have looped in a bunge out of the way as i never use it much , i cross the hand sets in the box make them a bit shorter , one is clipped down to a ring on the wasteband next to the brake , other one the matser / the shorter of the two i have hanging down fixed in on one of my dill gauge valcro,s

Gobshite1

The AutoAir seems harmless enough if looked after. I found with 2 stages I needed a dab of gas in the wing to offset the weight so I could keep MLV without getting annoyed. The handsets I have solved the dangle issue in a rather ingenious way. They clip to the chest strap clips instead of each other. So don't dangle down. You can have that one for free.

Now that I have the N@90 HUD, the handsets aren't really needed in the water except to change setpoint and for the occasional sanity check.

MikeF
01-12-2015, 01:49 PM
Just don't forget to change setpoint. Not that anyone ever would of course.

setpoint not stepping f*ing iphones

Paulo
01-12-2015, 01:58 PM
Just don't forget to change stepping. Not that anyone ever would of course.

?

gobfish1
01-12-2015, 02:21 PM
Well I went in with a couple of cylinders at the weekend and they trimmed out just fine. I have an old style box so have 3kg in the pouch on the lid, 2kg inside the box at the top in the middle and another 2kg on the left. Trims out bang on with that without a weightbelt.

Oh the box has a stainless backplate, lift bar and baseplate all from KT too.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/12316583_10153315006019716_4445336837313109484_n.j pg?oh=b96cc0fa367e8be9585358f8391bf31b&oe=56D73B7F

old style box lol
http://i68.tinypic.com/24e5jt5.jpg

Woz
01-12-2015, 02:43 PM
old style box lol
http://i68.tinypic.com/24e5jt5.jpg

*shudder* what a piece of poorly designed crap that is. With cold hands, the valve knob rubs on the case and makes it bloody difficult to turn. Tsk. No wonder loads of people ditch it. And don't mention that the yellow bit doesn't quite fit the black bit or the clips are a bit fragile. Oh and there are no drain holes in the bottom so if you're not careful, your first stages sit in water when you're filling the cylinders.

Still. At least you can remove the lid easily. On the new case, the rubber clamps are easily caught and the case flops open underwater. Then in the back of the car, you can't separate the sodding lid without unthreading the hinge straps so you need 3/4 of an acre to dick about with it.

jamesp
01-12-2015, 03:16 PM
old style box lol
http://i68.tinypic.com/24e5jt5.jpg

JFHCOAB !!

That's an old photo.

Gaz is half that size now.

I will have to dig out the one of the three stooges sat on the platform waiting to splash.

notdeadyet
01-12-2015, 03:24 PM
Bear in mind the buoyancy change when you actually use the bailout, also bearing in mind that if you use it you'll probably suck it inside out. I don't know what the Inspo is like in the water. My Mk15 is fucking floaty and I keep debating whether or not to swap to steel stages or a mix of steel & ally rather than all ally.

Lanny
01-12-2015, 04:54 PM
As a relatively new CCR Diver, but a Backmount and Sidemount cave diver (and instructor), this is something that I have given quite a lot of thought to in order to find a system that works well and trims out nicely.

I was originally trained on the APD Evolution and hated the position of the D-Rings on the nasty floppy harness. Even with nicely neutral Al cylinders, you tend to get the tanks either very low down or floating all over the place, which can effect trim, especially with the AP harness and "armchair" buoyancy. Steel cylinders make this much worse, with low slung bailout around the knees, a big diver profile and poor trim that would not be great in a cave or silty wreck. You can see this very vividly on the BSAC Pathfinder Dive:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceF0VCTnq_k

A lot of CCR divers I know Sidemount their bailouts, with loop bungie on their RB Harness and a SM clip on the bailout. This is streamlined, trims out nicely, but is limited to 2 cylinders in this configuration and as with all sidemount rigs, needs a bit of tweaking to get absolutely right.

One fairly neat solution is to use standard stage rigging, but put a "choker" of bungee around the tank neck and clip the top Boltsnap through both the Shoulder D-Ring and Choker. Sami P showed me this on my JJ crossover and I am still experimenting with it, although it has the disadvantage of making deploying the bailout harder and requiring a different stage configuration.

I tend to use a standard stage rigging, which I clip to the continuous webbing harness on my JJ. It keeps the cylinders pretty close and streamlined, and has the advantage that I can add additional stages in the same way as I dive OC, making my cylinders interchangeable whether I am on CCR, Backmount and Sidemount. You can see this rig here:

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12049545_10153057125011831_40053439473666693_n.jpg ?oh=80c2ee03b7ab0ed5c80c9ce6e90f45ab&oe=56D99C3D

Woz
01-12-2015, 05:09 PM
I am finding that with the trim weights in as I posted above, I'm disturbingly flat in the water. It's all rather peachy at the moment. Then again I get annoyed if I go seahorsey so I have worked quite hard to get it right.

I still have no idea why I need 2kg on the left of the unit. Worryingly, I needed the same when diving in a shortie open circuit in the Red Sea. I must have a heavy right knacker or something.

Mark Chase
01-12-2015, 06:30 PM
Said it loads before but if your diveing left right then I dive trimix bailout in a steel 10 (280bar 18/45 or richer) and Nitrox bailout in an AL80 (250+ bar of 50%) and in the water they both weigh the same within a knats cock so trim out great.

The benifit of this is the steel 10 empty is neutrol so wont affect your boyancy when empty when its atached to the BOV so you cant send it up the line

The AL80 is floaty as fec when empty but hopfulley you can swap to 80% at 9m so you either wont need all the 50 or if you do you can bin it up the line

A neer empty AL80 at 9m is a bit of a handfull but its doable

If your diving stupidly (IE all tanks on one side) then Ali 80s is the only way to go but they have to be 160 -180 bar to maintain neutrol and to me thats just daft carrying bg half empty tanks

Two steel 10s doesent work left right

Two ali 80s doesnt reay work left right either.

When I need a third tank I clip a Al80 of bottom mix (10/70 or simila) to my hip D ring front and to my stand at the back this gets it out of the way (its plumbed in to the BOV) but is less than ideal for grabbing the OC reg on it.

I decided thats better than fumbling with two tanks trying to figure out which is which when pooing my pants due to a CCR failure.


Shalow stuff?

2 X 7ltr steel every 275bar+ every time. Small Ali tanks are too gas limited at 5.5ltr and low presures further limit their operational window


When diving in the warm stuff I put a 2kg lead block on the Ali 80 of deep trimix to stop the floaty issues


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/DSC_7919_zpsjyn5yvlh.jpg




HTH

Mark

MikeF
01-12-2015, 08:43 PM
I'm with mark on this one I put trimix in a 7l and 10l steel and they just sit there happily and don't get all arse end floaty. much nicer than floaty ali cylinders. I only use ally cylinders for nitrox.

nigel hewitt
01-12-2015, 10:26 PM
I like steel bailouts as they stay under you rather than float rear end up and bounce around like a demented kitten.

I do have a pair of 12/300 carbon wounds for the real dark and deep and they needed attached weights as they go very positive on empty, in fact the 12/65 is always positive.

Woz
01-12-2015, 11:45 PM
Aaaaaaaaand with an hours faff, a semblance of sensibility is restored to the bloody thing

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12314049_10153318941669716_4766545614985215476_n.j pg?oh=c7bcfab108e5324a16a540f60902569d&oe=5721D587

MikeF
02-12-2015, 12:41 AM
So. What happened to diving it stock and not dicking about with it? So far you've repeated the first couple of mods I did to mine. You just need to fit a bov then an alibox or whatever box is flavour of the month then BMCL's.

Stop dicking with it and go and buy a JJ it'll be cheaper in the long run and will save you loads of faffing about.

gobfish1
02-12-2015, 07:23 AM
*shudder* what a piece of poorly designed crap that is. With cold hands, the valve knob rubs on the case and makes it bloody difficult to turn. Tsk. No wonder loads of people ditch it. And don't mention that the yellow bit doesn't quite fit the black bit or the clips are a bit fragile. Oh and there are no drain holes in the bottom so if you're not careful, your first stages sit in water when you're filling the cylinders.

Still. At least you can remove the lid easily. On the new case, the rubber clamps are easily caught and the case flops open underwater. Then in the back of the car, you can't separate the sodding lid without unthreading the hinge straps so you need 3/4 of an acre to dick about with it.

iv had no problems with it , opens fine and stays closed , fit could be better but it no big deal , drain holes , lol drill away ,
its just a bit of dive kit , some peps just like to keep polishing their turds , me i just toss it in the van and go to the pub ,

Woz
02-12-2015, 08:05 AM
So. What happened to diving it stock and not dicking about with it? So far you've repeated the first couple of mods I did to mine. You just need to fit a bov then an alibox or whatever box is flavour of the month then BMCL's. Stop dicking with it and go and buy a JJ it'll be cheaper in the long run and will save you loads of faffing about. I've dived it stock. I had the lungs off to clean them, had the backplate anyway so just lobbed it on. Total cost 0.00

JPTaylor
02-12-2015, 09:03 AM
I've dived it stock. I had the lungs off to clean them, had the backplate anyway so just lobbed it on. Total cost 0.00

Use some large washers (I'm sure you have) to spread the stress, the plastic case can break around the bolts.....

Woz
02-12-2015, 09:04 AM
Use some large washers (I'm sure you have) to spread the stress, the plastic case can break around the bolts.....
Way ahead of you there

Paulo
02-12-2015, 03:16 PM
Aaaaaaaaand with an hours faff, a semblance of sensibility is restored to the bloody thing

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12314049_10153318941669716_4766545614985215476_n.j pg?oh=c7bcfab108e5324a16a540f60902569d&oe=5721D587
Is that a standard BP? I seem to remember some of them stating specifically that they were for CCR

BjFaeTorphins
02-12-2015, 03:25 PM
Is that a standard BP? I seem to remember some of them stating specifically that they were for CCR

It matters for the BMCL. You need to take care that the backplate does not interfere with the BMCL.

dynarob
02-12-2015, 03:56 PM
Is that a standard BP? I seem to remember some of them stating specifically that they were for CCR

That's a Wozplate.


PS 10L steel 18/45 left, 7L 50/20 on the right FTW it has the additional benefit that the steel stage really really winds up gooers :)

Woz
02-12-2015, 05:27 PM
I have a 232 ally 10 called The Pig that trims out horribly

Paulo
02-12-2015, 05:37 PM
Today I got about 6m of 10mm black bungee to try and work something out for stage mounting.

Hot Totty
02-12-2015, 06:16 PM
Funny, never had any of this hassle diving two 80's all left on the forums most (excluding the pox) vilified ccr :)

nickb
02-12-2015, 07:53 PM
Today I got about 6m of 10mm black bungee to try and work something out for stage mounting.10mm?? Are you intending to use 50l stages?

Paulo
02-12-2015, 08:48 PM
10mm?? Are you intending to use 50l stages?

No it was what I got for nothing. It might be 8mm actually now that you mention it

jturner
03-12-2015, 11:18 AM
As a spin off from the OCB thread, how do people manage to trip their bailout cylinders on CCR?

I would be particularly interested in how people are trimming their FMCL APD units

Going back to the OP (sorry I'm late!), my Evo has a Narked@90 stand, so I fitted 2 x Kent Tooling backplate rings to the base of the stand and lowered the bottom stage kit clips slightly. The cylinders are now pulled back and drawn in close to my armpit but not so close that they get in the way. The stand is rigid of course, so the rear clips are easy to attach and don't move about. My stages are an ali 80 and a 232bar ali 7 FWIW. I then would use about 2kg in a weight pouch on top of the lid in the yellow box and the rest on my integrated pockets, slightly off-balanced to stop roll caused by the slight weight difference of the stages. I also need slightly lighter fins than a twinset (so more like a single tank arrangement) to keep best trim.

Major Clanger
04-01-2016, 06:59 PM
Good to see a number of steel cylinder bailout advocates, instead of the usual blah about ali's being rolled out. Give me a steel 10 over an ali 80 for deep mix any day.

nigel hewitt
04-01-2016, 09:09 PM
Good to see a number of steel cylinder bailout advocates, instead of the usual blah about ali's being rolled out. Give me a steel 10 over an ali 80 for deep mix any day.

I like steels. As I have said before they stay predictably below you rather than bobbing about like some demented puppy.
They even point in the direction of travel which must do something for streamlining.

I added 'weight belts' to my Carbon wound cylinders to get the same performance.

Major Clanger
04-01-2016, 09:11 PM
I like steels. As I have said before they stay predictably below you rather than bobbing about like some demented puppy.
They even point in the direction of travel which must do something for streamlining.

I added 'weight belts' to my Carbon wound cylinders to get the same performance.

Smaller and lighter on the surface too for more gas and better bailout characteristics.







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