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View Full Version : Rebreathers.... what makes one better than another?



Frappawotsit
22-03-2015, 02:18 PM
OK, so i know this is probably very generic and maybe even a stupid question, but.....

I am interested in perhaps one day looking toward getting a Bereaver..... not yet, but definitely something i'm interested in for the future....

I often see posts regarding CCR's and it is quite apparent that there is a hierarchy of sorts, with the Inspo classic at the base / entry level.... up through Inspo Vision, Megs, with probably the JJ sitting somewhere around the top of the most desirable list at the moment.....

What i don't understand.... is the differences.... the WHY?

So in the interest of trying to understand and learn more, what makes any particular unit more desirable than another? I know budget is obviously related, but that aside, why is a JJ considered more desirable than say a Meg or a Vision?

They are all designed to do the same thing, so as a new comer, how does one begin to learn about what makes one unit better than another, so as to narrow down shortlists and choice?

I specifically want to keep budget out of this, as i'd rather learn more about what features are desirable and why? Later on, when i'm actually looking towards purchase, i can then use that understanding to apply to whatever my budget is, to hopefully make the right choice.....

I understand this is quite a generic question..... but not really knowing many CCR divers, it'd be really useful to hear from the experienced about what influences the buying decision, what features are important, what are desirable etc and why.... besides budget?

Hot Totty
22-03-2015, 04:19 PM
Ohhhhhhhhh huge can of worms, cost - reliability - ease of repair (either self or manufacturer)- and for me options. But at the end of the day the one you've just invested a significant amount of cash on is the best ;)

Frappawotsit
22-03-2015, 04:32 PM
Ohhhhhhhhh huge can of worms, cost - reliability - ease of repair (either self or manufacturer)- and for me options. But at the end of the day the one you've just invested a significant amount of cash on is the best ;)

But that's the point, to somebody new... how do we learn about which units are more reliable than others, what makes for ease of repair, what options are there and which options are more needed than other etc..... need vs desirable, what benefits to certain options bring, or con's are there to not having certain features etc?

Reading the forums etc, tends to give a popularity basis, but not necessarily an understanding of why.... each of the manufacturers will claim theirs are the best and even users will favour the one they spent their money on, as you so rightly pointed out......

My point being that right now, if money were no object, i'd buy a JJ, but the truth is, i wouldn't really know why, i'd be trusting the fact that it's the most popular/desired, for a reason..... and that's not how i want to be basing my decision when the time comes.....

I want to understand the pro's and con's of units and understand why they are pro's and con's, so that i can help myself and make a decision based on information i can trust, rather than blindly following a list of popularity, if that makes sense?

GLOC
22-03-2015, 04:36 PM
The best way, go to somewhere like TekCamp or find an instructor who teaches on a number of units and take them for a spin. They you get to see what each one looks like, how easy it is to take apart, service, operate, support etc and then make your decisions. There is no right way or wrong way. If you are planning on diving with the people who already have one, then consider the same unit for spares and looking out for each other (but not at the expense of comfort or preference).

Regards

jamesp
22-03-2015, 04:40 PM
Existing?

matt yates
22-03-2015, 04:57 PM
A good PDF?

SoggyBottoms
22-03-2015, 05:00 PM
one of the guys in my club held a try dive in his pool for people to try a few different RB's. we had an Inspo Vision, a JJ-CCR and a rEvo. should have had a KISS classic there but someone had the arse
no one even wanted to try the Inspo and all declared the rEvo the best unit (in the limited experience of diving to 6' in a swimming pool)
that said, as you can't get trained on a rEvo in the UK, I could not recommend buying one

the Inspo and the JJ dive much the same with a few minus points awarded to the Inspo for shite trim and stupid fecking front counterlungs that get in the way until you get used to them. if you buy new you can get back mounted counter lungs
the JJ build quality is on a different scale to the Inspo. the Inspo is mainly moulded plastic whereas the JJ is machined delrin.
the JJ has a smithers HUD so you know exactly what each of your cells is reading, the Inspo has a simple green is good / red you're going to die immediately HUD system
the Inspo needs a lot more ballast to sink - anywhere between 4kg and a railway track
AP have a great website where as an authorised user you can buy any part for your Inspo and service pretty well everything apart from the head which is RTB and is required on some frequency I can't recall.
N@90 stock some JJ parts and the other bits you get from your Instructor or Jan. there is no RTB routine servicing required for the head as there's bugger all to go wrong in it as the controller is on your wrist

as someone else says, get along to Tek Camp and try a few to see what suits you not some opinionated idiot at a keyboard who only really knows about the Inspo and JJ and none of the myriad of other units that may exist

Ken
22-03-2015, 05:26 PM
Don't go by using one in a pool with no suit. With no weight you may be very negative and it might be a complete pig.

Many instructors will offer try dives on more than unit. I was at NDAC picking up my new toy at the start of the month and Mark Powell was doing try dives on both the JJ and the Vision at the same time. The students could have done one dive on each - they both did two JJ dives.

I chose a JJ over the Vision because of the handset, plastics and stand. I was very tempted by stuff like the temp stick on the Vision but discovered when I did a try dive that it didn't do what I had imagined. The thing with stuff like this is you can't tell what REALLY matters without actually diving the thing. It is possible to do the course before spending the money on the unit. That way if you hate it you can change your mind.

Like buying a house, it will be a compromise. I'd have specified a BOV if I had bought the Vision but one isn't available (from JJ) for the JJ.

I couldn't make up my mind for ages.

Ken

paulnlowry
22-03-2015, 05:46 PM
3 other fellow divers owned JJ`s and this affirmation was another positive reason why I purchased.

flyingfisheye
22-03-2015, 05:55 PM
Like with anything the instructor is a salesman and some might influence you towards their unit that they teach. It's about personal choice they all do the same thing like cars but we all choose our own car. I have a Sentinel and find that very good had an inspo before that was also good too. The Sentinel is now well supported by VMS at Vobster so the issues of old with VR are long gone. Support is Key for training and spares etc instructor availability is key too. The Sentinel is more of a technical CCR, as has lots of features that some like (i do) and some don't like. Try a few and think what you want it for, you will not save money with one. You buy one because you want one.

Regards

nick

gobfish1
22-03-2015, 07:09 PM
The best breather is the one that won't kill you , go find one if you can ,
Other than that toss money at it , go for the the one that's cost the most at that has to be the best as it cost a shit load ,

you could try and do some reading , some training and figure it out for your self , least that way whan you pop your clogs it wont be on someone else recommendation,

nigel hewitt
22-03-2015, 07:48 PM
I went through this last year and finally decided there wasn't a big difference between the top players and bought a Vision.
Now I'm not going to say it's better than the other front runners but it works for me.

Now if you don't want an eCCR for theological reasons or you don't like APD's take on back mounted counterlungs it's a non starter.
I went to the dive show and poked a lot of rebreathers and I admit I was comparing them to my old Sentinel and the Inspo won.

What did I like/not like?

I liked the handset, I like the fact that it offers Gradient Factors not some propitiatory 'conservatism' numbers. You may not like GFs but they are totally open and public.
I liked the injectors, I don't really like velcro which it is infested with, I like the scrubber as easy to fill, I liked the wing (I bought the large option) but not the inflater.
The new weight pockets are wonderful but the new trim weight pockets are pretty sad by comparison.
The optional handle is quite good.
The OCB is good but too stiff however I'm working on that.
I like the fact that you can get all the spares and all the tools including for the first stages and injectors.
I like the log dump because it gives me lots of detail.
The newer case is better than my old one.
I like the fact that a lot of the parts are moulded not machined because this is a production machine not a 'small batch process'. (I run an engineering company)
The harness is a bit fiddly but works if you do things in sequence.
I like the fact that the APD webshop lists things that have been obsolete for decades so spares will never be a problem. They are also fast.
I felt smug that they agreed with me that the Metalsub clips were wonderful so all my old stuff just clipped on.
I like their adjustable hoses as one needed to loose a couple of inches.
I like the way you can modify things.

That's me. The things that are important to me might not be what you want and the things that get on my nerves might be just so cool to you.
Now if they can just come up with an 'auto untie' option...

ebt
22-03-2015, 07:53 PM
It should be a question of fitting the rebreather to your style of diving/attitude, what works for one person may not work for another. I started researching ccr about 4 years before I bought, so im not the person to ask for a quick answer ;)

Some things to consider:

- Do you need CE (for work)
- Computer control vs manual
- Will you travel with it (weight/size become important)
- Will you use it in remote locations (maintainability varies a lot between units)
- WOB of the unit
- Support (both availability and attitude).
- The environment you plan to use it in (eg backmounted lungs have benefits in caves)
- "oh shit" stuff. BOV's, flood recovery etc etc.

Theres heaps to consider, which is why the advice to newcomers is often "Buy a second hand inspo, see how you get on. Create your own criteria, if you decide to sell it on later, you can do so at virtually no loss".

Oh and if someone recommends a unit, ask them why..... if the answer is "xyz dives it, it must be good", consider looking around.

notdeadyet
22-03-2015, 09:24 PM
The best rebreather is always whatever the person you are asking owns. A better question is probably if you didn't have what you then what would you have? Or something like that.

Most current rebreathers are all just variations on a theme and all will do the job perfectly well. Pie Boy above makes some good points re buying decisions. Personally, there's nothing particularly innovative in new units that would make me trade in my 40 year old rebreather. I suspect fashion is far more influential, the JJ looks an OK unit but it just makes me think of the iPhone of rebreathers. It does what everything else does but in a nice case.

Out of the current mainstream units, buy anything and you probably won't go wrong.

Paulo
22-03-2015, 09:53 PM
I was doing my research last year on CCR before I spent the money on something else. The most honest review I got came from a sentinel owner. He told me that he absolutely loved his machine and he dives it 50 weeks a year but that he would not recommend it to anyone else. I thought that it was a very honest and frank review

JPTaylor
22-03-2015, 09:56 PM
Inspo - Good supply of second hand units. I've had a Classic in the the past, but I'd only consider the Vision based units now (Inspo/Evo+/Evo). The JJ is a good unit but not many available 2nd hand, yet...

Hot Totty
23-03-2015, 07:41 AM
When I bought mine I looked at what was available - the JJ was to new and at the time I was nervous about buying from abroad with the possible service/repair problems associated with sending stuff abroad, that meant (for me) UK manufactured - choice of two sentinel and AP. The sentinel offered more for less money and them being just 40miles down the road made the choice even easier, that was my decision process :)

thetrickster
23-03-2015, 08:06 AM
A couple of plastic bags, some bendy tubing and some flaky electronics in a humid environment.
There isn't much they can do to improve on this concoction that is a 'CCR'...

They all have their pluses and minuses. Heavy / Floaty / Expensive / Lack of Spares / etc...

I wanted a Vision, no idea why perhaps I was taken by the colour, but thats what I've ended up with and that what I'm sticking with, you need to spend time with them to get used to diving one, and once you have it setup the way you like, I really can't see there being much functional difference once its on your back.

Nitnab Nhoj
23-03-2015, 08:13 AM
Manufacturer's after-sales support. Where do you live? How reliable are parts supplies?

Mark Chase
23-03-2015, 03:50 PM
For me a rebreather needs to tick several boxes.

Here is my top 10


1: Its relaible

2: Its well designed with reguard to assembly disasembly design and construction. Some CCR are a bit of a sod to set up. Fault diagnosis can be dificult, Others are intuative and very easy to live with

3: It will allow me to make the critical decisions without interfearance (A bit of a personal one that)

4: It needs very little or preferably nothing in terms of aftermarket add ons to make it good to dive. By which I meen BOVs HUDs diferent wings and back plates, stands, Injection points or manifolds

5: Its travel freindly and for me this meens I can fit it all (less a stand) in an overhead locker flight bag. And it will work with a range of cylinders from 3ltr ponies to 7s AL40s even AL80s if necessary

6: Parts and support are easily available

7: It runs GF decompresion where I can set the GFs

8: Its fault tolerent

9: Its flood tolerant

10: You can adapt it to suit your perferd diving stile.



I have never found a CCR that tics all thease boxes.

The JJ is the closest but its not very adaptable because its very hard to add a back up display and the new CE ones dont come with a BOV. I can dive arround issues but in a limited way. If i were to suffer hand set failure on my JJ I could dive it on just the HUD manualy as it gives me full PP02 on each cell but its less than ideal.

The rEvo Mini is a close second and it can very easily have multiple primary displays which will function normaly in the event of a single handset failure but its major drawback for me is it wont realisticly fit in an overhead locker so back to excess baggage charges and putting your babby in the tender loving hands of the baggage handlers.It also needs a stand and a BOV. TBH its also limited to 3ltr drive tanks. You could work arround but not easily

The Inspo is a great unit with loop falt being very easy to find and its super nice to set up (except the 0 ring of death) but in standard form the unit realy is dependent on Inspo tanks being available (not much of an issue thease days) and personly hate the standard harness set up. FOr reasions which baffle me it needs a lot of lead to sink it and trim is something you need to serch fore as it doesent happen streight out of the box. Travel is a PITA with its massive travel box and if it goes wrong its fecked your whole trip as unless you have a few grands worth of spare head with you you will not be able to dive arround its failure.

Other units have other issues but I just picked the three main ECCRs


I love the KISS as I always carried a few hundred quids worth of spare head & display for it, its super reliable a you can dive arround issues no problem but its standard BOV is rubbish, the standard counterlung case is a squeze to get in an OHL, it needs a stand it only realy works with 3ltr tanks (mounting others takes a bit of enginuity but its possable as many twin 7 KISS divers can attest.) and it has zero flood tolerance.

So even my beloved KISS has issues

Its not a case of finding the perfict CCR but more finding one with faults you can tolerate.

ATB

Mark



.

Mikael
23-03-2015, 05:46 PM
The JJ is the closest but its not very adaptable because its very hard to add a back up display and the new CE ones dont come with a BOV. I can dive arround issues but in a limited way. If i were to suffer hand set failure on my JJ I could dive it on just the HUD manualy as it gives me full PP02 on each cell but its less than ideal.

How likely is handset failure? I have heard of handset failures but none specifically on a JJ.
If a failure can be overcome by using the HUD then on any single dive a handset failure is not catastrophic though obviously it could put a stop to any more diving that day, weekend, week until the problem is fixed.

notdeadyet
23-03-2015, 06:28 PM
How likely is handset failure? I have heard of handset failures but none specifically on a JJ.
If a failure can be overcome by using the HUD then on any single dive a handset failure is not catastrophic though obviously it could put a stop to any more diving that day, weekend, week until the problem is fixed.
I wouldnt dive a unit that just had a flashy light hud as a backup. if you've got a proper secondary display then if a handset fails then you can keep diving until it's fixed.

Handset failure is more than just the actual handset unit. If I'm not mistaken the SW shares a common ground lead on the cells (my HH is similar) so if that lead dies then all 3 cell readings go down. Effectively the handset becomes useless. You can get home on a flashy light hud but I wouldn't want to dive that way. Batteries, dodgy wiring, all sorts can take a handset out if you include everything between the cells and your eyeball.

When I had a SW it was very reliable so in terms of how likely a JJ handset is to fail I'd say low. But given it is part of a system and the impact on the rest of your diving is high I wouldnt dive without a proper secondary display.

Although I think the KISS triple redundant system was a very robust idea. I'd make an exception for that.

Paul Evans
23-03-2015, 06:36 PM
Most current rebreathers are all just variations on a theme and all will do the job perfectly well. Pie Boy above makes some good points re buying decisions. Personally, there's nothing particularly innovative in new units that would make me trade in my 40 year old rebreather. I suspect fashion is far more influential, the JJ looks an OK unit but it just makes me think of the iPhone of rebreathers. It does what everything else does but in a nice case.

Out of the current mainstream units, buy anything and you probably won't go wrong.

What makes one better than any other....... Thats easy, The person diving it, or better put their mentality, attitude and aptitude. Everything else is bling. :think:

MikeF
23-03-2015, 07:28 PM
How likely is handset failure? I have heard of handset failures but none specifically on a JJ.
If a failure can be overcome by using the HUD then on any single dive a handset failure is not catastrophic though obviously it could put a stop to any more diving that day, weekend, week until the problem is fixed.

My unit has a primary and backup SW handset and a flashy HUD. So far I have had the pressure sensors fail in both handsets at different times (once halfway through a week in southern Ireland and once halfway through a two week Bikini trip) and two piezo buttons fail (one on it's first dive) so rare for some and not so rare for me. However two handsets just let me carry on diving as the ppO2 setpoint was unaffected and I just lost depth, time and deco on the handset with the buggered sensor. I quite fancied a JJ but I couldn't face the downgrade in redundancy.

I've also seen more than the odd vision and classic handset crap out.

Mark Chase
23-03-2015, 08:07 PM
I on the other hand dive on the flashey light HUD 80%+ of the time

It shows actual PP02 on each individual cell and thats prety much all the had set does.

If i just spent 8K flying and sailing out to Truck Lagoon id damed well dive the flashey light HUD all week if my hand set broke

But is this ideal? No

On my rEvo I could scrap the ECCR and run it MCCR and have a totaly independent back up display to manage this on. Given a screwdriver and an adjustable wrench I could fit a new display in about 20mins

I could use my back up computer (which has fischer conector) to run the unit on

I could if I were desperate ;) run it on my rEvo dreem displays :D

But when i owned a rEvo I had Sheerwater Display and my back up was a Sheerwater HUD (just like the JJ)

No the JJ handset has never failed on me but then i havent landed in Truck Lagoon yet and you just know thats when it will.

My Salvo 21W HID had done years and years of faultless service but it failed the moment I got down on the Bow of the Justicia :( A wreck id never dived before or managed to get on since was dived on a 1 candle power Photon Torpedo and I cryed for most of the dive.



ATB

Mark

Simon TW
23-03-2015, 08:14 PM
one of the guys in my club held a try dive in his pool for people to try a few different RB's. we had an Inspo Vision, a JJ-CCR and a rEvo. should have had a KISS classic there but someone had the arse
no one even wanted to try the Inspo and all declared the rEvo the best unit (in the limited experience of diving to 6' in a swimming pool)
that said, as you can't get trained on a rEvo in the UK, I could not recommend buying one


That's a crock of shit Charlie and you know it. All you have to do is book a course and I'm happy to teach you in the UK. There will be another rEvo instructor in the next few months as well.

Just because your mate didn't like it when I cancelled his Normoxic course doesn't mean that there's no UK instructor. I'd fallen and injured my knee, he threw his teddy out of the pram and sold his rEvo after crying and complaining to the manufacturer.

nickb
23-03-2015, 08:42 PM
The JJ is the closest but its not very adaptable because its very hard to add a back up display and the new CE ones dont come with a BOV.Not with the latest DiveCAN model. Unscrew the HUD and replace it with a NERD.

Likewise, if the handset fails, unscrew it and pop a new one on. Bruce & Linda have given a DiveCAN Petrel to Pete Mesley so that anyone with a compatible unit can carry-on diving in the event that they suffer a failure on any on his trips.

As for the BOV, there are plenty of aftermarket options. I thought you'd tried most of them ;)

If you've spent 8K getting to Truk, I can only assume you've bought a backup Petrel and a NERD in that price. You can do Bikini for 8K.

notdeadyet
23-03-2015, 08:50 PM
If I was convinced about the housing I'd stick a Gorilla po2 display on mine. I like the idea of just swapping out a 100 quid board if something fails rather than having to have 500 quid of spare computer knocking about.

I just couldnt get used to a Smithers code hud so reverted mine to red/bad, green/good. I dont know I'd trust myself with a flashy light hud and nothing else. It's academic for me though, the hud is just a repeater of the handset on the HH. Handset goes down and you lose the hud too.

Mikael
23-03-2015, 09:00 PM
What short comings does a revo dream display have?

Baloo
24-03-2015, 04:07 AM
What short comings does a revo dream display have?
IMO none, it is an independent PPO2 readout that includes it's own HUD. The HUD can easily be programmed to use the rEvo green is good code or the Smithers code that some others seem to prefer.
It can be run off of one or two cells on a single display.
I have two of them on my unit meaning that if my main electronics should fail (shearwater never seem to) then I can just fly the unit manually to get myself home.

Nitnab Nhoj
24-03-2015, 07:46 AM
Worth reading? If it is I'll put a link. Just ask!

"This is one of the best articles on the subject of primary rebreather hazards that I’ve ever seen. John puts the valuable information in plain language that most divers can readily grasp and comprehend. All aspiring rebreather divers need to print this and save it for future reference.

Rebreathers are amazing pieces of equipment that dramatically expand a diver’s universe. But they are not forgiving. Every accident that I have reviewed since rebreathers were introduced into the sport community over 25 years ago were due to “diver error”… not the equipment.

Be well informed, understand the equipment in detail, study the physiology of gases, and religiously follow the manufacturers’ check lists and guidelines for use.

When open circuit scuba equipment fails in usage, it is usually immediately obvious. The dangers of rebreathers are multiple and insidious. You’re not going to get a warning.

Be prepared and thoroughly understand the risks."

Bret Gilliam

Here's another, from Bob Halstead!
"Well written John! I worked out years ago after trying a couple of re-breathers that i do not have the temperament to keep them safe for me. There are no sort cuts for re-breather use. Meticulous habits, high intelligence and an anal-retentive instinct are essential. No hope for me!"

Frappawotsit
24-03-2015, 09:11 AM
I would appreciate a link, yes please.

Nitnab Nhoj
24-03-2015, 09:43 AM
http://www.undercurrent.org/blog/2015/03/23/near-misses-with-rebreathers-and-carbon-dioxide/

notdeadyet
24-03-2015, 10:17 PM
We were also concerned with the effects of two [sic] much oxygen

Tut, tut. 3/10

Mark Chase
25-03-2015, 09:15 AM
Not with the latest DiveCAN model. Unscrew the HUD and replace it with a NERD.

Likewise, if the handset fails, unscrew it and pop a new one on. Bruce & Linda have given a DiveCAN Petrel to Pete Mesley so that anyone with a compatible unit can carry-on diving in the event that they suffer a failure on any on his trips.

As for the BOV, there are plenty of aftermarket options. I thought you'd tried most of them ;)

If you've spent 8K getting to Truk, I can only assume you've bought a backup Petrel and a NERD in that price. You can do Bikini for 8K.



Good point well made. My JJ doesn't have this option and i wasent familure with it

The NERD is defo not cheep but it is a sensible back up to the hand set

Aftermarket BOV I think I did mention.


ATB

Mark

Mark Chase
25-03-2015, 09:20 AM
What short comings does a revo dream display have?

It only displays two cells and scroles the third. Not intuative and not conducive to good cell management IMHO

My one was older version and a pig to set up with the bloody tap tap tap on the side then it would do strange things when you tap tap taped it under water.

I think the new ones have Peezo switches?

But as a cheep emergancy back up? Id use it.

Also fantasticly simple to add and remove from the rEvo. A truley field strippable unit.

I sold my two which paid for my Sheerwater HUD :)

ATB

Mark

Dr Dundee
22-06-2015, 04:14 PM
I would recomend the rEvo to anybody:
Easy to maintian.
Low profile
Great customer service direct from the manufacturer and also from their agents.
5 cells = serious redundancy.
I have mine set up with 1 NERD and two dreams, each dream monitioring an independent cell.
Simple but brilliantly economical dual scrubber system (with RMS).
Very easy to fix in the field.
I have the micro which fits into a medium sized lightweight suitcase.
Its lightweight and doens't need much weight to dive it.
and contrary to earlier posts you can get training in the UK!
Chris

PeterL
22-06-2015, 04:41 PM
I love my rebreather more than anyone else's....... Heck we all do but mine is special because it's made of UNOBTANIUM... :D

All rebreathers made of UNOBTANIUM have better features and specifications and performance than anything that's not....

ebt
22-06-2015, 05:48 PM
I would recomend the rEvo to anybody:
5 cells = serious redundancy.



I must admit, i like the rEvo and especially paul's attitude to support/giving out information

One question though, what do you do if two cells read differently to the other 3?

Paulo
22-06-2015, 05:50 PM
I would recomend the rEvo to anybody:
Easy to maintian.
Low profile
Great customer service direct from the manufacturer and also from their agents.
5 cells = serious redundancy.
I have mine set up with 1 NERD and two dreams, each dream monitioring an independent cell.
Simple but brilliantly economical dual scrubber system (with RMS).
Very easy to fix in the field.
I have the micro which fits into a medium sized lightweight suitcase.
Its lightweight and doens't need much weight to dive it.
and contrary to earlier posts you can get training in the UK!
Chris

At what point though do you stop building redundancy and start adding more fail points?

dwhitlow
22-06-2015, 05:53 PM
I love my rebreather more than anyone else's....... Heck we all do but mine is special because it's made of UNOBTANIUM... :D

All rebreathers made of UNOBTANIUM have better features and specifications and performance than anything that's not....
Sadly mine lacks UNOBTANIUM and so is merely an ordinary rebreather that does all the diving I want and has yet to kill me, of even make a serious attempt to do so. It does have the advantage I can drive to the place it was made and they will be helpful.

Given the cylinder placement preferences of the OP your more recent project is perhaps more relavent.

PeterL
22-06-2015, 05:55 PM
Given the cylinder placement preferences of the OP your more recent project is perhaps more relavent.

That's also made of UNOBTANIUM such that I suspect it's too cool for his immediate needs... ;)

dwhitlow
22-06-2015, 05:58 PM
At what point though do you stop building redundancy and start adding more fail points?
People stress about redundancy and never use it when the most critical failure point of all, the idiot who is diving it, is normally the root cause of most incidents with rebreathers.

dwhitlow
22-06-2015, 05:59 PM
That's also made of UNOBTANIUM such that I suspect it's too cool for his immediate needs... ;)

But he could have 2 of them and then he'd have redundancy ;)

MikeF
22-06-2015, 06:20 PM
I would heartily recommend mine as well as it hasn't killed me yet either

GLOC
22-06-2015, 06:25 PM
People stress about redundancy and never use it when the most critical failure point of all, the idiot who is diving it, is normally the root cause of most incidents with rebreathers.
What you need is a competent team member to act as your redundancy ;) They can help prevent the incident as well as help resolve issues after the event...

Regards

PeterL
22-06-2015, 06:26 PM
What you need is a competent team member to act as your redundancy ;) They can help prevent the incident as well as help resolve issues after the event...

Regards

Also made of UNOBTANIUM if you leave your chances to daily diving types I have found.... :)

BjFaeTorphins
22-06-2015, 06:26 PM
I would heartily recommend mine as well as it hasn't killed me yet either
Takes a team of engineers to get you in the water though Mike. :)

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

MikeF
22-06-2015, 06:34 PM
ouch, that really hurts .

OK it's been a bad week for O rings and batteries but luckily I had planned ahead and ensured I had an adequate support team onboard. :) PPPPPP

dwhitlow
22-06-2015, 06:35 PM
What you need is a competent team member to act as your redundancy ;) They can help prevent the incident as well as help resolve issues after the event...

I think prevention is the better part, helping resolve issues is good. Not liking the after the event part so best avoid that.

dwhitlow
22-06-2015, 06:38 PM
Also made of UNOBTANIUM if you leave your chances to daily diving types I have found.... :)

Have you considered Fundies? At least as a GUE diver you will have consistent expectations of folk and they might not surprise you in ways you have been surprised by others. ;)

PeterL
22-06-2015, 06:41 PM
Have you considered Fundies? At least as a GUE diver you will have consistent expectations of folk and they might not surprise you in ways you have been surprised by others. ;)

Sigh, so harsh....

Mark Chase
22-06-2015, 07:07 PM
I love my rebreather more than anyone else's....... Heck we all do but mine is special because it's made of UNOBTANIUM... :D

All rebreathers made of UNOBTANIUM have better features and specifications and performance than anything that's not....



Pahh thats nothing

I have an Apoc ECCR on order and thats made of Nonexistium :D









Actualy I dont and I just thaught that would be amusing ;)

ATB

Mark

nigel hewitt
22-06-2015, 08:15 PM
What you need is a competent team member to act as your redundancy ;) They can help prevent the incident as well as help resolve issues after the event...
Grief you don't want people.
Fill them up with inert gasses and they just go stupid on you.

PeterL
22-06-2015, 09:47 PM
Pahh thats nothing

I have an Apoc ECCR on order and thats made of Nonexistium :D


I always thought the underpinnings of the worlds safest rebreather was its improbability drive and reality distortion matrix, both cutting edge and window-SIL tested. With real world performance figures like these it's going to keep its crown for some time to come too. There is a certain style of diver that can only benefit from a unit like this.

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 06:35 AM
What you need is a competent team member to act as your redundancy ;) They can help prevent the incident as well as help resolve issues after the event...

Regards

I believe Uri Geller was into diving at one point.

Nitnab Nhoj
23-06-2015, 07:55 AM
The big failure point in any rebreather is situated between the inhalation hose and the exhalation hose. Get that bit right and they are all very similar - apart from after-sales service, which can be variable!.

Capt Morgan
23-06-2015, 08:47 AM
The big failure point in any rebreather is situated between the inhalation hose and the exhalation hose. Get that bit right and they are all very similar - apart from after-sales service, which can be variable!.

The DSV / BOV ?
I would think it was any point situated between the exhalation hose and the inhalation hose :giggle:

Alby R
23-06-2015, 09:48 AM
Pahh thats nothing

I have an Apoc ECCR on order and thats made of Nonexistium :D
Actualy I dont and I just thaught that would be amusing ;)

ATB

Mark

Talking about nonexistium, a pal of mine is one of the ea's and he is still waiting for nonexistium electronics absolutely disgusting and as of yet not a flicker when they will be ready, i would find it hard to believe anything coming from osel or brad(ginger) about delivery dates

alby

dwhitlow
23-06-2015, 09:58 AM
The big failure point in any rebreather is situated between the inhalation hose and the exhalation hose. Get that bit right and they are all very similar - apart from after-sales service, which can be variable!.

Servicing and access to spares was a consideration when I got a Vision and AP have been consistently excellent (not metioning cells). There is usually at least other Inspo on every trip so sharing spares is an option. Being able to drive to the factory is a definite advantage and after 5 years of self-service they gave mine a complete check over and changed a few million o-rings and had it back to me in under 2 weeks.

Paul Evans
23-06-2015, 10:31 AM
Talking about nonexistium, a pal of mine is one of the ea's and he is still waiting for nonexistium electronics absolutely disgusting and as of yet not a flicker when they will be ready, i would find it hard to believe anything coming from osel or brad(ginger) about delivery dates

alby

WHOOOOOSH

Thats the sound of another OSEL deadline passing by...........

Didnt brad say a last time he started ranting that it was going to be done by now?? :rolleyes:

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 10:43 AM
WHOOOOOSH

Thats the sound of another OSEL deadline passing by...........

Didnt brad say a last time he started ranting that it was going to be done by now?? :rolleyes:
It was amusing reading Bradlex advising Mark to reverse the flow on his KISS just to suit an OSEL bov on ccrx the other day.

PeterL
23-06-2015, 10:46 AM
Shhh... Ejit's, the ghost of appoc past will be along shortly with their mind soap to reverse your recollections, it was a good thread but you gone and done it now.... ��

Alby R
23-06-2015, 11:00 AM
WHOOOOOSH

Thats the sound of another OSEL deadline passing by...........

Didnt brad say a last time he started ranting that it was going to be done by now?? :rolleyes:


like i said in my post it is impossible to believe anything osel and brad (ginger) say about delivery dates

alby

dwhitlow
23-06-2015, 11:07 AM
like i said in my post it is impossible to believe anything osel and brad (ginger) say about delivery dates


not so, you can believe them when they say there is a delay ;)

londonsean69
23-06-2015, 11:12 AM
not so, you can believe them when they say there is yet another delay with a bollocks excuse;)

ftfy :)

Paul Evans
23-06-2015, 11:43 AM
It was amusing reading Bradlex advising Mark to reverse the flow on his KISS just to suit an OSEL bov on ccrx the other day.

How does a BOV, on its own, not connected to the rest of a Rebreather, get PPE type approval to be sold in the EC?

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 11:47 AM
How does a BOV, on its own, not connected to the rest of a Rebreather, get PPE type approval to be sold in the EC?
Get it done in Russia?

Paul Evans
23-06-2015, 11:50 AM
Get it done in Russia?

WHOOOOOSH

That's the TU 144 Taking off from St Peters-burg........... Special Delivery :giggle:

dwhitlow
23-06-2015, 11:58 AM
WHOOOOOSH

That's the TU 144 Taking off from St Peters-burg........... Special Delivery :giggle:

and landing ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpPaaP1IIe8

paulnlowry
23-06-2015, 12:06 PM
and landing ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpPaaP1IIe8

Oop`s

BTS
23-06-2015, 12:29 PM
The best one is the one you can afford, they all do pretty much the same thing and if there were one in particular to avoid as it kept killing people you would know about it for sure..

When I wanted to give CCR a go I went for a cheap second hand inspo, it was affordable and over time I have swapped out most of the parts so the only original bits are the head/scrubber unit and the breathing hoses... It does what it is supposed to with minimal fuss...

I would swap it out for a JJ as a JJ is what, IMO, a CCR unit should be, straight out of the box with no need to adapt and pimp... but that is 5K I can spend on decent holidays so I am in no rush..

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 01:01 PM
Surely you can easily get a BMCL kit, Shearwater, travel frame and holiday for well within 5 grand? Still have some left over for the badly fitting lid too.

If a rebreather could have a quoffed beard and fashion tattoos then the JJ would even have the skinny jeans... a less appealing rebreather doesnt spring to mind.

Dr Dundee
23-06-2015, 01:24 PM
At what point though do you stop building redundancy and start adding more fail points?

Its a glass half full - half empty question

dwhitlow
23-06-2015, 01:39 PM
Its a glass half full - half empty question

Or perhaps a question of whether it is adding technology in the hope it will help overcome incompetence!

Capt Morgan
23-06-2015, 01:54 PM
At what point though do you stop building redundancy and start adding more fail points?

I think people should just keep it simple ;)

dwhitlow
23-06-2015, 02:16 PM
I think people should just keep it simple ;)

I so agree.

I recall one rebreather where the owner had clearly thought through numerous failure scenarios and added clips, hoses, flowstops and more to enable him to overcome the failure, perhaps with the intention to continue the dive. In the case of failure I very much doubt he would recall all the permutations he'd created and suspect things could easily go from annoying to disatrous.

Surely the key message should be keep it simple, maintain it well, know your unit well, avoid change, practice key skills and abort the dive the moment any primary system fails.

BTS
23-06-2015, 02:59 PM
Surely you can easily get a BMCL kit, Shearwater, travel frame and holiday for well within 5 grand? Still have some left over for the badly fitting lid too.

If a rebreather could have a quoffed beard and fashion tattoos then the JJ would even have the skinny jeans... a less appealing rebreather doesnt spring to mind.

I have all that apart form the shearwater controller which are rare as hens teeth, two of them would be nice... plus the JJ looks cool...

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 03:18 PM
I have all that apart form the shearwater controller which are rare as hens teeth, two of them would be nice... plus the JJ looks cool...
Really? I think it just looks like a Meg/Hammerhead/Inspo in a travel frame. I just dont get what the big hard on about the JJ was. Never really struck me as an inspired bit of design.

BTS
23-06-2015, 03:36 PM
Never really struck me as an inspired bit of design.

It is what the inspo should have evolved into if AP had bothered to invest instead of creating new, over priced add ons and toys... It is a nice looking bit of kit. But yes, it is essentially a blinged up inspo...

Mine is more blinged down, steam punk rebreather stylie

Mark Chase
23-06-2015, 03:57 PM
Really? I think it just looks like a Meg/Hammerhead/Inspo in a travel frame. I just dont get what the big hard on about the JJ was. Never really struck me as an inspired bit of design.


Air gap insulated scrubber

Fulley ECCR with no safety automation except wet switch on for controler thus allowing the diver to compleatly control it

Needs nothing added (if you baught one with a BOV) it just works streight out of the box and even the standard harness isnt bad

Totaly reliable

Versitile

Fits in an overhead locker for international travel

Light enough to be dived in a 3mm wet suit without being over weight

So well ballanced you can dive it in a 3mm wet suit with no weights required to trim it out in the water

Everything apart from the controler is easy to work on

Radial and Axiel scrubbers available

Dive Can available

NERD available

One of the lowest WOB units out there

Scrubber duration on a par with the best

Very easy to make into a hybrid

Appart from that its prety crap ;)


The only realy bad bit about the JJ is the price and the fact its not easy to add aftermarket back up displays


ATB

Mark

hippytyre
23-06-2015, 05:04 PM
Another vote for JJ, I don't have one but it's my idea of the perfect rebreather too. I'll probably get one eventually but redoing a lot of my training would be annoying and expensive.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

BTS
23-06-2015, 05:37 PM
Another vote for JJ, I don't have one but it's my idea of the perfect rebreather too. I'll probably get one eventually but redoing a lot of my training would be annoying and expensive.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

I don't quite get the 'redoing the training' business, diving CCR is diving CCR, surely if someone walks you through a new unit, or you sit down and fiddle with it that is enough.... Emergency procs don't vary do they?

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 05:44 PM
Air gap insulated scrubber

Fulley ECCR with no safety automation except wet switch on for controler thus allowing the diver to compleatly control it

Needs nothing added (if you baught one with a BOV) it just works streight out of the box and even the standard harness isnt bad

Totaly reliable

Versitile

Fits in an overhead locker for international travel

Light enough to be dived in a 3mm wet suit without being over weight

So well ballanced you can dive it in a 3mm wet suit with no weights required to trim it out in the water

Everything apart from the controler is easy to work on

Radial and Axiel scrubbers available

Dive Can available

NERD available

One of the lowest WOB units out there

Scrubber duration on a par with the best

Very easy to make into a hybrid

Appart from that its prety crap ;)


The only realy bad bit about the JJ is the price and the fact its not easy to add aftermarket back up displays


ATB

Mark
I never said it was crap. I just dont think it's a particularly innovative design. So what's it got that, say, a Meg hadn't done ten years ago. I'm sure it is a very good rebreather but I can't get excited about it. It might perform as good as everything else but from a design standpoint, so what? It's another bucket of lime with a Shearwater.

bottle maker
23-06-2015, 06:09 PM
If I had the budget for a new rebreather I would be looking at either a Vision or a JJ the big thing that puts me off the JJ is the lack of audible alarm. I do think that they are a useful warning to both the owner and their buddy that something is not right.

I know other CCR divers disagree but I do like the Buzzer. It pisses me off when it bleeps but is does make you pay attention.
Graham

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 06:28 PM
If I had the budget for a new rebreather I would be looking at either a Vision or a JJ the big thing that puts me off the JJ is the lack of audible alarm. I do think that they are a useful warning to both the owner and their buddy that something is not right.

I know other CCR divers disagree but I do like the Buzzer. It pisses me off when it bleeps but is does make you pay attention.
Graham

One of the things I love about the Hammerhead is the DIVA. It vibrates the whole mouthpiece and it'll rattle your fillings out. If you can ignore it, you're probably already dead. It's actually pretty unpleasant when it fires.

hippytyre
23-06-2015, 06:38 PM
I don't quite get the 'redoing the training' business, diving CCR is diving CCR, surely if someone walks you through a new unit, or you sit down and fiddle with it that is enough.... Emergency procs don't vary do they?
I'd be quite happy buying one and doing exactly that but I suppose insurance would be the main problem. How many people just buy one and get on with it?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Barrygoss
23-06-2015, 06:41 PM
I'd be quite happy buying one and doing exactly that but I suppose insurance would be the main problem. How many people just buy one and get on with it?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Me.
Oh and that's buy one and just get on with it from day dot
Oh and I'm the posterboy for scuba FS ;)


B



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MikeF
23-06-2015, 06:42 PM
what insurance?

Iain Smith
23-06-2015, 06:53 PM
...

Iain Smith
23-06-2015, 06:53 PM
So what's it got that, say, a Meg hadn't done ten years ago.

Availability in a GUE-approved version?
<ducks and runs for cover>

I.

nigel hewitt
23-06-2015, 07:13 PM
I will admit the JJ was the only alternative to the Inspo when I deserted the Sentinel.

I confess I think I wanted APD back as a source and I was familiar (and qualified) with the Inspo.
I didn't bother with retraining, I just downloaded the current manual and read it for differences.

We are very happy together.

dwhitlow
23-06-2015, 07:23 PM
Availability in a GUE-approved version?
<ducks and runs for cover>

who cares? Everyone else has been diving ccr for years without needing the blessing of any particular agency. Many of those you see in the real world have been modified and therefore had their CE invalidated too. It is good to GUE catching up.

jamesp
23-06-2015, 08:01 PM
Availability in a GUE-approved version?
<ducks and runs for cover>

I.

Exactly how big a market is that?

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 08:01 PM
Availability in a GUE-approved version?
<ducks and runs for cover>

I.

There is the Marx Brothers UTD approved version. Well, that was before Leon cottoned on to how much of a gang raped goat they had turned it into.

Seriously, how hard can it be to lash up any unit to make it dive like a twinset? I could quite readily fuck up any rebreather to make it dive in a way that it was never intended and as inefficiently as possible without actually resorting to breathing the dil on open circuit. Then tell everyone that with our ten minutes of CCR experience that our way is right. I won't even charge extra for breaking the rebreather, unlike the GUE version.

I thought any unit running off cells was a death trap? Strange... the period with the shittest cells in the history of shit cells, that coincidentally aligned with the highest helium prices in the history of high helium prices, is the time that GUE decides is ripe for jumping into CCR. Almost as if... it was a commercial decision...

Just borrowing Gobbers' grassy knoll... :D

jamesp
23-06-2015, 08:04 PM
There is the Marx Brothers UTD approved version. Well, that was before Leon cottoned on to how much of a gang raped goat they had turned it into.

Seriously, how hard can it be to lash up any unit to make it dive like a twinset? I could quite readily fuck up any rebreather to make it dive in a way that it was never intended and as inefficiently as possible without actually resorting to breathing the dil on open circuit. Then tell everyone that with our ten minutes of CCR experience that our way is right. I won't even charge extra for breaking the rebreather, unlike the GUE version.

I thought any unit running off cells was a death trap? Strange... the period with the shittest cells in the history of shit cells, that coincidentally aligned with the highest helium prices in the history of high helium prices, is the time that GUE decides is ripe for jumping into CCR. Almost as if... it was a commercial decision...

Just borrowing Gobbers' grassy knoll... :D

Makes you wonder if they have a special shovel to go with it.

Iain Smith
23-06-2015, 08:06 PM
🎣


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 08:17 PM
Makes you wonder if they have a special shovel to go with it.

Wasn't there a body bag too?

I really hate how happy clappy GUE went, they were much more interesting when they were obnoxious :)

BTS
23-06-2015, 08:21 PM
I'd be quite happy buying one and doing exactly that but I suppose insurance would be the main problem. How many people just buy one and get on with it?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Insurance? Do you life insurance know which unit you dive? If they do you have given them too much information

Iain Smith
23-06-2015, 08:52 PM
Wasn't there a body bag too?

I'm pretty sure there was...however, all traces of it appear to have been eradicated from the "Wayback Machine" internet archive...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Barrygoss
23-06-2015, 09:27 PM
I'm pretty sure there was...however, all traces of it appear to have been eradicated from the "Wayback Machine" internet archive...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Can't see the body bag, just some stuff ;)

First posted rec.scuba back in 2002. "The old days" what ever happened to jammer6?

Poster is tony balzanto
"This is from George Irvine. He knows something about rebreathers. This is
from the Inner Realm web page at http://www.innerrealm.co.nz/dir.asp
Tony


BUDDY INSPIRATION OR EXPIRATION?
BY GEORGE IRVINE - Director WKPP

Since those who do not know want to make an issue of me not being willing to
waste my time talking about why elephants can't fly, I will waste all of
your time with this one to get at those who keep recommending the Buddy
Inspiration, and who apparently have an agenda with this thing and other
shade tree rebreathers out there.

Besides all the failure modes common to all rebreathers, like if the
mushrooms in the mouthpiece malfunction and take the diver hypercapnic or
hypoxic right away, or a loop hose failure, etc, the Desperation has its own
plethora of problems idiosyncratic to the unit. Other units have many of the
same issues, and almost all of the civilian rebreathers are poor excuses for
anything other than assisted suicide devices. In fact, most are merely
copies of each other's bad ideas, and most are poorly funded, poorly
capitalized, poorly tested and otherwise poorly conceived wet dreams. The
Halcyon is a clever device, made more clever by Reinhard Buchaly, but is
still a dangerous piece of `kit`, whereas the Buddy is a dangerous piece of
`shit`.

I will talk about the Inspiration Rebreather as it comes from the factory.
There are many ways to modify the rebreather as one may observe on the Star
Wars Bar Scene lists like `rebre...@nwdesigns.com` and is a complete topic
onto itself. I will stick to the basics here and leave the `fix it at home`
mods to the die hards on the other lists.

There is a small metal screw inside the oxygen sensor compartment, it is
located directly across from sensor number two. Condensation often forms on
this metal screw and will allow droplets to fall onto the oxygen sensors.
This will happen particularly if the diver moves from side to side as in
dumping gas from a drysuit or if they invert from horizontal for any reason.

Condensation is inherently found within this area and will form on the
oxygen sensors even without this metal catalyst. The O2 sensors are located
on the inhalation side of the breathing loop, so you have warm gas that just
went through the scrubbing process meeting with cooler gas that you will
inhale thus the condensation forming on the cell faces. This condensation
causes discrepancies/inaccuracies within the cell readings and they begin to
VOTE trying to figure out which one is more than .2 bar out of line with the
other. Cell warnings will manifest within this period of time and the diver
will begin to get audible and visual alarms ...task loading increases.

The unit alarms if it senses a PO2 over 1.6, which is a good thing. Problem
with this is that many of the divers will run 100% oxygen at 20 ft, which is
a PO2 of 1.6, if they drop below the 20 ft they get an alarm, fair enough.
If you have several Inspiration divers in close proximity with cell warning
alarms, and high PO2 alarms it becomes very difficult to know if the alarm
is coming from your unit or from another diver. Some will be able to
assimilate this to being in an area where several cellular phones begin to
ring and everyone pulls out their phone to see if it was theirs. Mix this
with CCR divers using wrist computers that alarm and you really have an
orchestra playing down there, so much for the peace and tranquility of `no
bubbles`.

Weight must be placed on the top of the rebreather in order to balance the
trim. If divers put to much gas in the counter lungs the upper body is
lifted and trim is then off center. Gas in a counter lung is just another
source to administrate, along with drysuit, BCD, PO2 on handsets, pressure
in O2 and DIL cylinders.

Many divers use the Inspiration to extend their times in open ocean, this in
itself may pose problems. If the decompression gained by the increased
bottom times is met with undesirable conditions such as rough seas it is not
so easy to adjust buoyancy as with breathing open circuit. Many of the
buoyancy characteristics involved with rebreathers require a longer learning
curve and must be anticipated, if the diver is not up to par they are much
less forgiving than OC. If the constant PO2 is increased or decreased too
quickly due to unforeseen circumstances the diver could quickly become
hypoxic/hyperoxic.

Mouthpiece does not have OC bailout built into it, bailout is a time of
increased stress so it is pertinent the transition should be smooth without
chance for a mistake. The bailout procedure on the factory unit uses a
device called an Auto Air, this duals as a breathing device and BCD
inflator. I couldn't imagine this being an effective tool for gas sharing,
nor proper bail out for the user either, as the CCR mouthpiece has to be
effectively closed before the transition to OC bailout is performed or it
will flood the breathing loop making the diver negatively buoyant. Bail out
should be in the form of a combination unit on the mouthpiece to facilitate
safe transition.

If the O-ring on top of the cartridge lid is dirty or not aligned properly
CO2 will take the path of least resistance and bypass the carbon dioxide
scrubber therefore breathed back into the loop. Hypercapnia begins and the
diver is faced with another problem to solve.

As the diver descends they must equalize the counter lungs, if this
procedure is not adhered to and they begin an uncontrolled descent the lungs
collapse and the diver is not able to breath, an automatic diluent add is an
aftermarket product which does combat this. But since we are talking factory
here the diver is faced with equalizing counter lungs, ears, sinuses, mask
drysuit, BCD, monitoring PO2 on handsets, buddy position, light and depth in
the water column. It has been mentioned before that this is `a busy time`.

Inspiration does not have SS backplate and utilizes many plastic fastex
clips, which some view as failure points. There are seven quick releases on
the soft harness including the crotch strap and handset clips. The clips
that hold the yellow casing lid on the unit break frequently so spares are
required as well.

Often difficult to transport with Sofnolime, if you do not have an MSDS on
your person you will be declined, even if you do have the Material Safety
Data Sheet on hand and the handler does not feel comfortable with the issue
they will not let the scrubber material on the plane. Most Inspiration
divers seek out `Inspiration friendly dive Centers` so they are able to
obtain the wide array of parts required to service and maintain.

The oxygen sensors are proprietary to the Inspiration, which limits the
diversity on this product. Many of the CCR's will allow various types of
sensors to be used but not so the case with Inspiration's and it is strongly
voiced by Martin Parker. Patrick Duffy with Oxycheq in the US sells similar
sensors and says there is absolutely no difference between the Teledyne's he
sells and the Inspiration sensors.

Scrubber canister is small (2.45 Kg of 8-12 mesh, 797 diving grade
sofnolime) and does not facilitate the use many of the mixed gas Inspiration
divers put it through. At depth CO2 breakthrough is rapid even with a
resting diver, if breathing resistance is elevated the scrubber is near
void. With increased CO2 build up the diver is of course exposing oneself to
further malady. Diving high helium concentrations assist with this problem
as it is less dense than air, easier to breath therefore less CO2 buildup
and the scrubber should last longer but it is playing on the edge. High PPN2
should be ultimately avoided.

If counter lungs are not situated adequately they will float above the
divers shoulders and increase breathing resistance. It is taught in the
basic course to watch for this ... But they are clipped down with fastex
buckles which as we know do fail on occasion. With the diver already quite
task loaded on the CCR it is easy not to notice the lung has crept up, CO2
will then increase from breathing resistance.

The LP hoses which feed the diluent and the oxygen inlets on the counter
lungs use a different end than the BCD inflator. The BCD is inflated with
Diluent gas, the same which you are adding into the counter lung, there is
no sound reason not to have the same end on this for diversity. The reason
the end is different on the BCD inflator is to supply a greater amount of
gas to the Auto Air regulator used as a bailout/inflation device. This

Auto Air is prone to free flow situations and can dump the diluent gas if
not tended to quick enough. Most Inspirations divers discard this Auto Air
early into their CCR career.

If both handsets shut off in the water the diver is faced with a series of
questions in order to `reboot` the system. One of the questions ask if you
would like to calibrate `yes or no` if the diver is stressed and chooses
`yes` they will effectively be adding 100% oxygen into the breathing loop no
matter what depth they are at in the water column.

If the battery is low it will not supply enough EMF for the oxygen solenoid
to open the valve and add life sustaining gas.

The control handsets are secured to the canister via rubber hose, the wiring
is run through this conduit down to the electronic handsets that are
monitoring the dynamics of the oxygen sensors. These rubber conduits enter
into the scrubber/O2 sensor compartment where it is humid and if not
perfectly sealed will allow condensation to migrate into the hose and wreak
havoc with the electronics in the handsets. Many electronic problems with
the handsets have involved this scenario.

See Mike Pizzios complaints on techdiver, see the archives of techdiver for
info on the Desperation, see the UK coroner for what the bottom line on this
thing is. My take? `needs to be sold with a shovel`.

dwhitlow
23-06-2015, 09:37 PM
I must remember to polish my spade :)

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 09:46 PM
I'm pretty sure there was...however, all traces of it appear to have been eradicated from the "Wayback Machine" internet archive...


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I'm sure it is in either the DIR 2 or 3 video. I've lost my DVD's. I think I was using them as coasters :)

notdeadyet
23-06-2015, 09:47 PM
I must remember to polish my spade :)

There is a joke there that could lead to a banning. If it was Friday night post-cider I'd be tempted.

Iain Smith
23-06-2015, 11:07 PM
See the UK coroner for what the bottom line on this thing is.

To be fair, a UK coroner did warn people how dangerous the unit was, saying that divers should be "very wary". "I think the diving community should look very carefully at any piece of equipment which has a possible one per cent fatality rate."

The particular incident leading to this inquest can be identified by a very simply Google search.

"On the trip to the wreck on June 13, 2000, [the deceased] complained that the alarm was going off on his kit, but he banged it on the rail of the boat, complaining that the battery connections were faulty, and the alarm stopped."

I think Martin Parker wrote a piece about this in DIVER(?), in which he tactfully pointed out that "percussive maintenance" is not advised. There was also an uncontrolled buoyant ascent from depth in the mix as well.

I also recall an incident where the unit was found with a loose first stage on the (empty) O2 bottle. The coroner concluding that the diver had jumped in with a loose first stage, resulting in rapid loss of gas, hypoxia and death. That verdict suggested (to me) that the coroner had never heard an unsealed high pressure O-ring...

All of which does make me wonder how much reliance can be placed on a coroner's verdict...against which, of course, there is no appeal.

BTS
24-06-2015, 01:31 AM
There is a joke there that could lead to a banning. If it was Friday night post-cider I'd be tempted.

One must keep the staff looking spick and span....

Mark Chase
24-06-2015, 06:33 AM
I never said it was crap. I just dont think it's a particularly innovative design. So what's it got that, say, a Meg hadn't done ten years ago. I'm sure it is a very good rebreather but I can't get excited about it. It might perform as good as everything else but from a design standpoint, so what? It's another bucket of lime with a Shearwater.



For starters it doesent have a C02 bypass designed in a la Meg 10 years ago :D

OK

Standard MEG needs a stand

Meg doesent offer single LED per Cell HUD with actual PP02 displayed

Standard Meg is too heavy for wet suit diveing and heavy for overhead locker transport if theres a 20kg wirght limit (Think BA and American Airlines)

Meg has front mounted lungs which Id prefer not to have.

Meg needs the head removed to switch it on which is just mad

Do the can clips still break?

Has the battery issue now been resolved?

Where do you get it repaired in the UK?

Mark Chase
24-06-2015, 06:40 AM
If I had the budget for a new rebreather I would be looking at either a Vision or a JJ the big thing that puts me off the JJ is the lack of audible alarm. I do think that they are a useful warning to both the owner and their buddy that something is not right.

I know other CCR divers disagree but I do like the Buzzer. It pisses me off when it bleeps but is does make you pay attention.
Graham


FOr obvious reasions I mainly dive with Inspo divers and the whole buzzer thing seems a joke. Those damed things are constantly going off, being ignored or not herd.

I have got out ofd the water more than once and asked why somones buzzer was going off all the time to get the responce, "Was it?" or "OH was that MY buzzer?"

I do agree the vibro HUD DIVA is excelent

Personaly I find it hard to ignore the angry red flashing HUD on my JJ and when its flashing in a whay that anoys me its easy to put out of sight

I wouldent want a buzzer on a JJ but id like a DIVA just so long as you can override ANY warning.

nigel hewitt
24-06-2015, 07:43 AM
First posted rec.scuba back in 2002. "The old days" what ever happened to jammer6?

Poster is tony balzanto
"This is from George Irvine. He knows something about rebreathers."
Thank you for that.
There is nothing like GI3 in full rant.

I bought my first 'Desperation' a year before that. Several of his points were covered in the training.
I'm sorry to say I'm still here.

notdeadyet
24-06-2015, 08:13 AM
For starters it doesent have a C02 bypass designed in a la Meg 10 years ago :D

OK

Standard MEG needs a stand

Meg doesent offer single LED per Cell HUD with actual PP02 displayed

Standard Meg is too heavy for wet suit diveing and heavy for overhead locker transport if theres a 20kg wirght limit (Think BA and American Airlines)

Meg has front mounted lungs which Id prefer not to have.

Meg needs the head removed to switch it on which is just mad

Do the can clips still break?

Has the battery issue now been resolved?

Where do you get it repaired in the UK?

It still doesn't make it an innovative design. Because it isn't. It's a bucket of lime with a Shearwater. The Inspo, the KISS, the Meg and the rEvo all broke new ground. The JJ is just a reuse of everything that has been done before. Nothing wrong with it, it's a very well executed reuse of everything done before but it's hardly an exciting design. I've no problem with its performance, I just find it bizarre that people look at it like Wiganers seeing electricity for the first time. It just makes me think so what?

Mark Chase
24-06-2015, 09:11 AM
It still doesn't make it an innovative design. Because it isn't. It's a bucket of lime with a Shearwater. The Inspo, the KISS, the Meg and the rEvo all broke new ground. The JJ is just a reuse of everything that has been done before. Nothing wrong with it, it's a very well executed reuse of everything done before but it's hardly an exciting design. I've no problem with its performance, I just find it bizarre that people look at it like Wiganers seeing electricity for the first time. It just makes me think so what?


In some ways your right but when I first looked at and dived a JJ I thaught AT LAST a CCR I dont need to modifie.

I suppose its not so much a ground breaking design as one that's designed by a thinking diver and built ready to dive.

Thers so many new CCR out there now I am sure there are others but for me looking at the rest at the time it was a neet compact minimalistic design that have all the bits in the right places.

Then i dived it and found it was ergonomic, breathed well in most all positions, intuitave and beautifuley ballanced.

As I say the only thing that pisses me off is that for such a simple design and build it costs far too much money.

ATB

Mark

Paulo
24-06-2015, 09:13 AM
I have heard it said that the JJ has taken the best bits from the various manufacturers and put them into the 1 unit. Is this a fair assessment?

nigel hewitt
24-06-2015, 09:24 AM
I have heard it said that the JJ has taken the best bits from the various manufacturers and put them into the 1 unit. Is this a fair assessment?
That's a matter of taste.
Most of the time served established products are now so good that it's more a matter of your personal style.
Mark seems to go with the JJ and I'm very happy with my Inspo.
There are others like the rEVO and the Kiss that have their well deserved following.

Some of the newer players are not so good yet. My main complaint would be scrubbers without an insulating air gap. I see that as pretty crucial in cold water. I think the ability to go manual is important. Everything needs a plan-B and I don't see "I carry bailout" as being an all encompassing cure-all.

The biggest bug with rebreathers is the user. I make a point to practice most of the 'breakage' drills every year but some people never do it after the course.

Barrygoss
24-06-2015, 09:36 AM
That's a matter of taste.
Most of the time served established products are now so good that it's more a matter of your personal style.
Mark seems to go with the JJ and I'm very happy with my Inspo.
There are others like the rEVO and the Kiss that have their well deserved following.

My main complaint would be scrubbers without an insulating air gap. I see that as pretty crucial in cold water.


The air gap has been mentioned twice now as an advantage, the inspo wins out over the JJ as its "can" material is less heat conductive, but the air is still scrubber air, so although it is acting as an insulation layer, its still going through the scrubber material and having a cooling effect.
The KISS can now comes with insulation around the can (Syntactic foam) and shows a big increase in scrubber performance.

but they're all just a bin bag over your head with some bits added ;)

B

notdeadyet
24-06-2015, 09:42 AM
I have heard it said that the JJ has taken the best bits from the various manufacturers and put them into the 1 unit. Is this a fair assessment?
The Boris was the best bits of the Mk15.5 and Cis Lunar 3/5 put into one unit.

That turned out well...

notdeadyet
24-06-2015, 09:50 AM
The air gap has been mentioned twice now as an advantage, the inspo wins out over the JJ as its "can" material is less heat conductive, but the air is still scrubber air, so although it is acting as an insulation layer, its still going through the scrubber material and having a cooling effect.
The KISS can now comes with insulation around the can (Syntactic foam) and shows a big increase in scrubber performance.

but they're all just a bin bag over your head with some bits added ;)

B
Mk15 scrubber is in an air jacket too. Been like that 40 years until the JJ invented it :)

Personally, I think the air jacket is limited for the reason you say. In the 15 it partly is there to condense out water in the right place. I was sceptical of the syntactic foam and was impressed by how much difference it made. There must be a lot of heat lost along the loop hoses and lungs as well though. I wonder if we'll ever see insulated lungs.

dwhitlow
24-06-2015, 09:57 AM
There must be a lot of heat lost along the loop hoses and lungs as well though. I wonder if we'll ever see insulated lungs.
Now you've suggested it the next JJ update will have adopted the idea ;)

dwhitlow
24-06-2015, 09:58 AM
The biggest bug with rebreathers is the user. I make a point to practice most of the 'breakage' drills every year but some people never do it after the course.
And the most critical components the user needs to look after are the O2 sensors

OutOfTest
24-06-2015, 10:10 AM
I have seen neoprene lungs. Surely they must have some insulating properties?


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jamesp
24-06-2015, 10:16 AM
The Boris was the best bits of the Mk15.5 and Cis Lunar 3/5 put into one unit.

That turned out well...

I`ve seen three.

Mind you two were at the dive show.

The guy I bought my ybod off was selling to buy a borris, I just smiled and handed over a wodge of twenties.

notdeadyet
24-06-2015, 10:50 AM
Now you've suggested it the next JJ update will have adopted the idea ;)
And we'll have to listen to how innovative it is :)

Fill the lungs with rockwool.

Paul Evans
24-06-2015, 11:25 AM
I have seen neoprene lungs. Surely they must have some insulating properties?


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ISC used to make them for the Meg. You can get Neoprene wraps for the hoses somewhere to.........

nigel hewitt
24-06-2015, 11:33 AM
The air gap has been mentioned twice now as an advantage, the inspo wins out over the JJ as its "can" material is less heat conductive, but the air is still scrubber air, so although it is acting as an insulation layer, its still going through the scrubber material and having a cooling effect.
Well no. The air gap is a dead end blocked off by the infamous 'scrubber o-ring' at the top.
While that ring is in place the insulating air is stagnant and, double glazing style, it is a good insulator as the bottom is very restricted by the size of the bottom cap.
If the ring isn't there you have far more problems than a radial temperature gradient on the fill.

That ring is the Inspiration's big nasty but you have to be mad not to check and recheck it as you assemble things.
Diving with the ring out is the Inspo equivalent of forgetting to analyse you gas and jumping into 40 meters with 40%.
It's all going to end in tears.

Barrygoss
24-06-2015, 11:41 AM
Well no. The air gap is a dead end blocked off by the infamous 'scrubber o-ring' at the top.
While that ring is in place the insulating air is stagnant and, double glazing style, it is a good insulator as the bottom is very restricted by the size of the bottom cap.
If the ring isn't there you have far more problems than a radial temperature gradient on the fill.

That ring is the Inspiration's big nasty but you have to be mad not to check and recheck it as you assemble things.
Diving with the ring out is the Inspo equivalent of forgetting to analyse you gas and jumping into 40 meters with 40%.
It's all going to end in tears.

The gas is still free to move in and out of that channel though, I can't see any part of the rebreather being allowed to have stagnant gas as that could lead to CO2 pooling. But on the JJ it's the gas path.

B

nigel hewitt
24-06-2015, 01:19 PM
The gas is still free to move in and out of that channel though, I can't see any part of the rebreather being allowed to have stagnant gas as that could lead to CO2 pooling. But on the JJ it's the gas path.
It has to be free so it stays ambient however it is open to a single chamber at the bottom so the circulation will be trivial as it is too narrow to support convection (the double glazing trick). On the Sentinel it was also part of the gas path so it basically chilled the scrubber rather than insulated it. I like axial scrubbers but they need to be insulated to help maintain a flat (ish) reaction front as the gas is scrubbed. Once you throw a temp stick into the equation the things you infer from that do assume that the scrubber is scrubbing evenly and not channeling. This is one thing that I think AP have got spot on. I am quite happy with the O-ring system they use to seal it too but it is accessible to user error although the usual CCR paranoia deals with it quite well.

Major Clanger
25-06-2015, 11:24 AM
ISC used to make them for the Meg. You can get Neoprene wraps for the hoses somewhere to.........

Scapa Scuba







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Major Clanger
25-06-2015, 11:28 AM
The Meg is an alloy made of Fuckingawesome and Indestructium. That's what differentiates it.







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PeterL
25-06-2015, 01:26 PM
The Meg is an alloy made of Fuckingawesome and Indestructium. That's what differentiates it.



But it will give you a set of honking big man boobs to keep your ego in check..... ;)