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Badger
11-01-2013, 08:19 AM
Suunto DX, it has arrived. At Aquanauts yesterday we had a conference call with the folks at Suunto, and yes there is a new computer on the market. All the tech specs are here: Sunnto DX (http://www.aquanauts.co.uk/suunto-dx).

So the Suunto DX (or D10 as they will want to call it) on the face of it has all the usual functions for open-circuit recreational and technical divers that you would expect, air, gauge, nitrox and trimix support. For the serious techies it has gas switching between up to 8 gases. Not my cup of tea, but it seems solid enough. The interesting thing is it also has a dedicated non-monitoring CCR mode as well. You can configure up 3 different diluents, adjustable set points and automatic and manual set point switching plus an open circuit bailout mode (Banana Joe got all excited about this and phoned home for more money instantly)

Here is the question we could not agree on. One of the features of this computer is an implementation of RGBM called the Fused RGBM algorithm. It is a mix of Suunto’s own technical RGBM for the shallow portion of the ascent with a Bruce Wienke developed RGBM for the deep sections. I don’t use a computer for my mix and cave diving so just don’t see the benefit of so much technology in one device, whereas my colleague Paul (who is also GUE trained) thinks they are the mutts nuts.

I guess the question is should we be comfortable with ‘new’ hybrid decompression algorithms and ever more complex instruments?

Nitnab Nhoj
11-01-2013, 08:21 AM
There's a review in the February edition of Diver...

Soggy
11-01-2013, 08:28 AM
And then you see the price.

I'm going all retro and staying with the hard wired computer and a dive timer for back up.

Nitnab Nhoj
11-01-2013, 08:34 AM
As the lady in the antique shop helpfully pointed out when I was browsing: These things are for rich people.

Soggy
11-01-2013, 08:36 AM
As the lady in the antique shop helpfully pointed out when I was browsing: These things are for rich people.

And the gullible....

Nitnab Nhoj
11-01-2013, 08:40 AM
And the gullible....

Those of us that got free £4000 sofas, Samsung TVs, velvet curtains, expensive rugs, four-poster beds etc from a certain millionaire's house in Wimbledon last week, thought the owner really gullible! (He just cleared out that house before having it rebuilt and couldn't be asked to put things on eBay - fool! Wasted his money on a big motor yacht too.)

Soggy
11-01-2013, 08:41 AM
Those of us that got free £4000 sofas, Samsung TVs, velvet curtains, expensive rugs, four-poster beds etc from a certain millionaire's house in Wimbledon last week, thought the owner really gullible! (He just cleared out that house before having it rebuilt and couldn't be asked to put things on eBay - fool! Wasted his money on a big motor yacht too.)

Well done but Suunto aren't giving the computers away are they.

Nitnab Nhoj
11-01-2013, 08:43 AM
Well done but Suunto aren't giving the computers away are they.

I thought that you were implying that rich and successful people are gullible. Our friend in Wimbledon is a keen diver. He went to Aldabra. When I asked which liveaboard he went on he gave me an old-fashioned look and said "Our own".

Soggy
11-01-2013, 08:49 AM
I thought that you were implying that rich and successful people are gullible. Our friend in Wimbledon is a keen diver. He went to Aldabra. When I asked which liveaboard he went on he gave me an old-fashioned look and said "Our own".

I'm having a tough time working out why any one would pay £1000 for a CCR back up (not even able to be integrated) when a dive timer for £80 does the job. I honestly liked the look of it and would of thought about buying it till I saw the price.

Nitnab Nhoj
11-01-2013, 08:51 AM
I'm having a tough time working out why any one would pay £1000 for a CCR back up (not even able to be integrated) when a dive timer for £80 does the job. I honestly liked the look of it and would of thought about buying it till I saw the price.

You know those people that buy the Rolex Sea Dweller with the helium-escape valve?...They're not all commercial divers. :) It costs around £5000, in which case the Suunto is a bargain!

Badger
11-01-2013, 08:56 AM
Paul's argument was that in a GUE min deco ascent we use a combination of a tissue model for the deep section and a bubble model for the shallow anyway, so why is using two bubbles models together any different?
I just felt less comfortable with the switch over between the two being driven just by the Helium content and no control over ascent rates. It might just be me.

Soggy
11-01-2013, 08:57 AM
You know those people that buy the Rolex with the helium-escape valve?...They're not all commercial divers. :)

I can imagine the need to allow helium to escape your watch, while trundling along the Kings Road in you Bentley at 5mph, very useful.

I believe there's a quote out there "Cocaine is gods way of telling you, you have too much money"..

Ian_6301
11-01-2013, 09:02 AM
Sorry James...

What's the target market here?

For a start, it's the same form factor as the D9 - too big for a watch, too small for a computer.

Secondly, It's a Suunto (yes, I have one already) so it'll still do Suunto minutes, won't it?

Thirdly, £995 is a bit steep, when you can have an OSTC2n for £650 or a Petrel for £707. And £200 for a titanium strap?

For that price, you're nearly talking Predator with OC everything. I know which I'd go for.

Badger
11-01-2013, 09:12 AM
Sorry James...

What's the target market here?

For a start, it's the same form factor as the D9 - too big for a watch, too small for a computer.

Secondly, It's a Suunto (yes, I have one already) so it'll still do Suunto minutes, won't it?

Thirdly, £995 is a bit steep, when you can have an OSTC2n for £650 or a Petrel for £707. And £200 for a titanium strap?

For that price, you're nearly talking Predator with OC everything. I know which I'd go for.

I think that is a good point, they seemed to say that the whole spectrum was their target market, or certainly someone who diving everything from bimbles to going to the end of the line! They didn't really go into a competitive overview so I couldn't place against those other instruments.

Dave1w
11-01-2013, 09:59 AM
I think I would prefer the full sized one which would probably be cheaper. I have waited a long time for Suunto to come out. With a PPO2 computer.
Guess we'll see how it works out
Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HDzedb

Nitnab Nhoj
11-01-2013, 10:10 AM
An analogy: The most expensive car made by VAG is the Bugatti Veyron $1,700,000 but most people buy the Polo.

Badger
11-01-2013, 10:16 AM
I can imagine the need to allow helium to escape your watch, while trundling along the Kings Road in you Bentley at 5mph, very useful.

I believe there's a quote out there "Cocaine is gods way of telling you, you have too much money"..

That was Robin Williams stand up, very funny I am sure someone with time on their hands will find the you tube clip!

nickb
11-01-2013, 08:36 PM
You know those people that buy the Rolex Sea Dweller with the helium-escape valve?...They're not all commercial divers. :) It costs around £5000, in which case the Suunto is a bargain!I nearly bought one in 1990 - they were £1200 then. I bought a stereo instead - that's probably worth less than £50 now.

Wish I'd bought the Rolex, I could have flogged it and bought a decent watch.

Dyson Diver
11-01-2013, 08:52 PM
I nearly bought one in 1990 - they were £1200 then. I bought a stereo instead - that's probably worth less than £50 now.

Wish I'd bought the Rolex, I could have flogged it and bought a decent watch.

to b fair a thirty quid casio does the same job ,,, very few people need to wear a watch to tell the time these days , and a deep sea certainly isnt a tool for diving anymore ,,, but hey ,,, they are still as tough as they come , but quite what you would buy in its place that you could class as decent , id really like to hear ... just dont say tag

nickb
11-01-2013, 09:14 PM
...but quite what you would buy in its place that you could class as decent , id really like to hear ... just dont say tagIWC, Officine Panerai, Ulysse Nardin, you could get a nice Jaeger Reverso for that money but would struggle to get a Patek.

Lots of decent watches with far superior movements than Rolex can be bought for the price of a Sea Dweller. The only decent Rolex movement is in the Cosmograph and you won't get one of those for five grand.

Jim
12-01-2013, 03:31 AM
I've been diving a number of different versions of the DX for the last couple of months, including the final production model, and I like it a lot.
I definatly think that there is a niche for this computer, I personally switch:o between diving Open and Closed Circuit using air, nitrox and trimix, I do a little bit of cave diving, and a bit of rusty metal but mostly deep stuff.
I find it much easier to use than either the OSTC or the Shearwater, mostly because I've been using the same format of screen/ buttons/ menus for years so it's all second nature. If you've used any Suuntos since the Stinger then the user interface will take only a few minutes to get to grips with. Finding info is dead easy as it's in exactly the same place you would expect to find it on a earlier computer.
I've run the DX against OSTCs, SW, VRx, Vision and against a D9Tx guesstimate setpoint bodge. It is in its element as a standalone backup whilst on CCR, and mirrors my GF settings very closely ie +/- 1min/ 1m. As with the open circuit side, it's very predictable so any anomalies are quickly noticed.
As with any high-end piece the appeal is going to be to a small market section, this is most certainly not the best choice for a 'first dive computer' purchase! But for me it has pretty much nailed a noticed gap in the market.
All it needs now is a nice OLED screen....... ;)

Ian_6301
12-01-2013, 09:19 AM
...for me it has pretty much nailed a noticed gap in the market...

Which is what? Brand Loyal Suunto fanboys who either can't be Arsed to learn to navigate a new brand of computer, or have never heard of either the OSTC or the Petrel, never have to use thick gloves, never dive at night, have great eyesight and want EVERYBODY in the bar to know that they are not only a Tx / RB diver, and that not only can they can afford a £1k dive computer, but that they also splurged £200 on the titanium strap...?

It's clearly not a proper techy computer, cos there are no bungee mount options...

NEXT!

Dave1w
12-01-2013, 09:22 AM
I guess someone does't like suunto's then!

GLOC
12-01-2013, 09:23 AM
Jim,

Whilst Ian appeared to be a little emotive with his response, I know you are a warm water diver (and likely using it in Mexico without gloves) but how well can you operate the computer with 5mm wet gloves or dry gloves on?

Regards

Nitnab Nhoj
12-01-2013, 09:38 AM
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32248864/Dive%20Forum1/SuuntoDX.jpg

Gareth, It's exactly the same as any other Suunto computer watch. If you can't operate one of those with your gloves on, you won't be able to operate this...

Ian_6301
12-01-2013, 09:48 AM
I guess someone does't like suunto's then!

Sort of... I used to have a vytec, which was good. I now have a viper air, which annoys me. A lot.

Things that annoy me are partly because the diving that I do has changed (gone more tecy) and the suunto hasn't. Partly, it's stupid design.

The screen is not great. It's ok, but when even the likes of Mares are going OLED and suunto's new flagship model is LCD, you have to wonder.

The buttons need to be pressed hard and long. Fine with warm fingers, but a pain to do a gas switch with numb fingers in 5mm gloves at the end of a dive.

The screen tries to pack in a lot of info, but does so in what I consider to be a messy way. I even prefer my Uwatec Dive Timer!

The algorithm is very bend/mend. Allegedly, the new one is better...? But the whole suunto minutes thing is frankly a joke. Instead of actually calculating the different off-gassing rate, all it does is penalise you at an arbitrary rate for not being at exactly the depth its crackpot algorithm wants you to be at. 3.5m may be appropriate in a glass calm in the red sea, but when it is a bit lumpy in home waters, doing the stops at 6m is a much better option.

Finally, I have given the suunto watch-style computers a go and found all of the problems with screen size, buttons etc to be made even worse. The strap is not (imo) fit for purpose for drysuit diving on any suunto. The bungee mounts available for the larger computers are a better bet, but they can't be used on the watches.

Suunto watches are, as above, only any good to warm water divers and those who like to wear them in the bar to advertise the fact that they are a diver...

As for the techy thing, given a free choice and £1000 in cash, I'd plump for the Petrel or the OSTC 2n and have at least £300 in change. That's a no brainer, and enough to buy a nice titanium watch to wear in the bar.

Either the price point or the concept of this computer is wrong for UK diving. Probably both.

I'm not against Suunto per se, the zoop and even the basic vyper are great first computers for sports divers, but I can't see this one making many sales records...

I'm sorry if this seems a bit emotive and/or cynical and I concede that my time has been rather sarcastic, but this is not a rule 46 issue, I've not made any personal attacks, and if you want to buy one, be my guest, but I think you'll be wasting your money.

That's 2 sets of new clothes for the emperor inside a week - this and the Hollis Explorer...

Nitnab Nhoj
12-01-2013, 10:01 AM
I think people get too obsessed with their own requirements and don't see the wider picture. Suunto have provided a product for which it believes there is a market.

You may think that Porsche is stupid for making two-seater cars. You may think it's stupid for making the 4x4 Cayenne. The management at Porsche don't agree with you - and there lies the difference.

I don't get heated-up because I think people buy the wrong things. Everyone must make their own arrangements and the Suunto DX is now available for those that want it.

(Commercial Plug: There is a review of the DX in the February edition of Diver. There is also a review of the Petrel in the March edition!)

rongoodman
12-01-2013, 11:11 AM
I don't understand why anyone would spend that kind of money for computer with a tiny LCD display and a proprietary algorithm! If you don't want a Petrel or OSTC, you could buy a Liquivision Xeo with full RGBM and an OLED screen for several hundred dollars less.

nickb
12-01-2013, 11:14 AM
I find it unusual agreeing with Ian_6301 but he's bang-on here, this thing is ridiculous. Suunto aren't stupid though; their customers might be, willing to part with a grand for something that offers a lot less than what you can get for £300 less. But who want to wear a Petrel around the bar whilst supping their Stella and telling heroic tales of their deep push on the Thistlegorm?

Ian_6301 might want to think again if he believes his 'tecy' needs are greater than Jim's though ;)

Nitnab Nhoj
12-01-2013, 11:24 AM
This DX can't even receive text messages while you are underwater with it (like the Liquivision Lynx)! What was Suunto thinking of?

Charley
12-01-2013, 12:20 PM
What's up mr Banting didn't suunto bung you one ?

Soggy
12-01-2013, 02:26 PM
(Commercial Plug: There is a review of the DX in the February edition of Diver. There is also a review of the Petrel in the March edition!)

at a guess, they got 8/10.

Woz
12-01-2013, 02:31 PM
Can you plan a deco dive on it? You can on my VR3 (that does 10 gases and you can pick up second hand for £250 these days).

TxNinja
12-01-2013, 04:51 PM
I've run the DX against OSTCs, SW, VRx, Vision and against a D9Tx guesstimate setpoint bodge. It is in its element as a standalone backup whilst on CCR, and mirrors my GF settings very closely ie +/- 1min/ 1m. As with the open circuit side, it's very predictable so any anomalies are quickly noticed.


What algorithm and gf settings did you use and for what depths / runtimes. This new algorithm might be better but unless they will disclose its underpinnings we won't know. If I use VPM/b to plan and run it on my predator and x1 it all matches. Will the suunto be customisable?

Even if it is, I'd still probably spend the money on my X1 or another Predator.

Mister Mike
12-01-2013, 07:30 PM
If you look at Suunto's release video the divers are in a cold lake wearing dry gloves and seem to be managing ok.

Soggy
12-01-2013, 07:40 PM
If you look at Suunto's release video the divers are in a cold lake wearing dry gloves and seem to be managing ok.

they are not gonna release a promo video with the divers screaming obscenties at the computers and having trouble operating them, are they?

Jim
13-01-2013, 12:24 AM
[QUOTE=Ian_6301;16972]Which is what? Brand Loyal Suunto fanboys who either can't be Arsed to learn to navigate a new brand of computer, or have never heard of either the OSTC or the Petrel, never have to use thick gloves, never dive at night, have great eyesight and want EVERYBODY in the bar to know that they are not only a Tx / RB diver, and that not only can they can afford a £1k dive computer, but that they also splurged £200 on the titanium strap...?

It's clearly not a proper techy computer, cos there are no bungee mount options...

NEXT![/QUOT

I think there is probably a few reasons why people become loyal to a brand, be it Suunto, Apexs, Apple, BMW, The Times or whatever.
I get to dive with a fair few new bits of kit, including computers, so definately have to be able to navigate round all the different menu systems, not least because I usually have to teach people how to use their new kit.
I have a hardwired Shearwater on the Meg I dive, so am quite happy using that system too...
I like having a computer that can do all the dives that I do, and I like the watch style because I never leave the house without wearing my watch, though I have forgotton to remember to throw things in my bag, my old dive computers included.
I do roughly 300-500 dives most years, the vast majority of which are in warm clear water. The only time i've worn gloves in the last few years is at TekCamp in Vobster! Due to an old injury, however, I'm very used to having reduced feel when pressing buttons on any dive computer. For example, I don't get on well with the tap interface on the Liquivision, but have no problems with the OSTC and Shearwater. The Suunto buttons I don't have a problem with. Its all quite personal.
I still generally plan my dives on my laptop, or run a gas/TTS plan, irrespective of what wrist unit I'm using. Normally on a dive there are various different computers/plans being used. The DX on -2 is pretty close to GF 30/85. This was on a pre-production version I was testing, with most dives being in 30-60m for up to 4hrs. For a 3hr dive on the Rosalie Moller, 90mins bottom time and 90mins deco the DX was almost metre/mitre and min/min the same as the hardwired Shearwater on the Meg.
As for the divers bling factor, well , fair one! At home, most people would guess that I was a diver (the DC staff t-shirt is a bit of a give away). I still think the most special example of apre-dive sadness was a a bloke wearing a Gekko as a watch in a Mayfair pub!
I don't think that any computer currently out there and available is perfect, and I don't think there is ever going to be one that suits everyone. The DX suits me down to the ground, I can dive it on any dive I can do, and not least Suuntos are (in my expirence) very reliable. Works for me.

ralphy
13-01-2013, 07:33 AM
IWC, Officine Panerai, Ulysse Nardin, you could get a nice Jaeger Reverso for that money but would struggle to get a Patek.

Lots of decent watches with far superior movements than Rolex can be bought for the price of a Sea Dweller. The only decent Rolex movement is in the Cosmograph and you won't get one of those for five grand.Any suggestions?

R

Woz
13-01-2013, 07:37 AM
Any suggestions?

R

Don't buy an expensive chav watch?

nickb
13-01-2013, 10:20 AM
Any suggestions?I gave you some in the post you quoted. Are you in the market or just trolling?

Neil Brock
13-01-2013, 02:01 PM
Any suggestions?

R

Afternoon Gentlemen,

Any mechanical watch that passes COSC specifications and, maintains it consistently, (approx 3 or 4% of Swiss watches !) is a well made watch.
If it retains its value, or even grows its value, after servicing costs, it's also an investment.
However if I wanted an accurate watch I would buy a quartz powered watch !

When I used to work offshore I would not have dreamed of wearing a Rolex, it would not be needed, it would get lost, or, broken. The only time it would have been used was when I went begging to the bank.

I used a Sekio that was welded across, dropped in pints, used as a conker etc etc.

Now I don't work offshore I have an Omega Seamaster that my Mrs bought me as a present. But I do wish I had invested in a Rolex all those years ago for a couple of hundred £. A mate has a Comex Rolex that looks like shit and is worth in excess of £40K !!!
Too valuable to wear !

nickb
13-01-2013, 02:13 PM
Now, a Comex with a left-hand winder. That would be the Rolex to own.

o2dependant
14-01-2013, 08:46 AM
I'm in the market for a Bremont u-2.

Tried one on a couple of times and I really like it. They don't have the pedigree of some of the more exclusive brands but I have yet to read or hear anyhting bad about them.

Thats said I have not been able to read much about them at all resulting in my hesitation to hand over the cash..

Nitnab Nhoj
14-01-2013, 09:45 AM
A mate has a Comex Rolex that looks like shit and is worth in excess of £40K !!!
Too valuable to wear !

My Rolex is safe in a drawer and I wear a Suunto!

Neil Brock
14-01-2013, 02:49 PM
My Rolex is safe in a drawer and I wear a Suunto!

You know John, I was out with the Queen at the weekend and we spent some time about name dropping ! :D

Nitnab Nhoj
27-01-2013, 02:40 PM
I can now reveal I have been using a DX alongside Vision electronics using air as a diluent - in which case they dovetailed nicely except that the DX asked for a one minute deep stop on the way up. I also could read the display very easily (I'm a pensioner for Gawd's sake) so I think it makes a good back-up - and it tells the time.

By the way Neil, I heard that there were a lot f queens in your part of the world. I'm told HMQ hates sheep-shaggers though.

Ian_6301
27-01-2013, 02:58 PM
I can now reveal I have been using a DX...

Quel surprise...

Janos
27-01-2013, 09:27 PM
I nearly bought one in 1990 - they were £1200 then. I bought a stereo instead - that's probably worth less than £50 now.

Wish I'd bought the Rolex, I could have flogged it and bought a decent watch.

Shirely. £1200 in 1990 is worth roughly the same as £5000 20 years later... You'd be better off sticking it in a house or Janos's special growth fund [1]

Janos

Janos
27-01-2013, 09:30 PM
I really, really like the bog standard Suuntos. Easy to use. Nice display. Intuitive menus. Superb.

However, I wouldn't trust them on dives where they clock up more than 15 to 20mins of deco. I really don't like the algorithmn and I prefer something with more deep stops. If I were Suunto, I'd release a simple computer with a trimix implementation of Buhlman (and a constant ppO2). But you wouldn't be able to charge £1k for it which I guess is the point.

Janos

Paulo
27-01-2013, 09:46 PM
I really, really like the bog standard Suuntos. Easy to use. Nice display. Intuitive menus. Superb.

However, I wouldn't trust them on dives where they clock up more than 15 to 20mins of deco. I really don't like the algorithmn and I prefer something with more deep stops. If I were Suunto, I'd release a simple computer with a trimix implementation of Buhlman (and a constant ppO2). But you wouldn't be able to charge £1k for it which I guess is the point.

Janos

My experience as an owner of a 4 Suuntos: Vyper, Vyper Air, Vytec, Mosquitto as well as a new owner of a new to me VR3 - I really like the way that the VR3 calculates TTS based on the gases that have been preprogrammed and use real minutes as opposed to the Suunto's use of what ever gas you are on and the heavy penalties know affectionately as Suunto Minutes

nickb
28-01-2013, 11:10 AM
Shirely. £1200 in 1990 is worth roughly the same as £5000 20 years later... You'd be better off sticking it in a house or Janos's special growth fund [1]The point was that the watch would now have been worth what I'd have paid for it, accounting for inflation; whereas the stereo was pretty much scrap, although my lad is having fun playing my old vinyl albums on it now it's been reclaimed from the loft.

And don't call me Shirley!

dlk
29-01-2013, 12:19 PM
My experience as an owner of a 4 Suuntos: Vyper, Vyper Air, Vytec, Mosquitto as well as a new owner of a new to me VR3 - I really like the way that the VR3 calculates TTS based on the gases that have been preprogrammed and use real minutes as opposed to the Suunto's use of what ever gas you are on and the heavy penalties know affectionately as Suunto Minutes

I think of those Suuntos as recreational computers suitable for no-stop diving, with a sh*t/fan get-me-out-of-here mode once you hit deco. They're not really comparable to a VR3 (or other "tech" computers).

FWIW: They appear to use a pretty standard Haldanean model with some adaptive factors from a series of RGBM profiles folded over to modify (reduce) the tolerated tensions. I don't know why they didn't implement a standard off-gassing model (and hence Suunto minutes), but I suspect it concerned both the validity of the folded factors in an iterative computation and the expectation that getting shallow quick was the most critical factor (recreational gas volumes).

Personally, I would not dive these other than as NDL calculators or bottom timers.

The "Suunto Technical RGBM" (D9Tx, Helo2), while still adaptive factors folded over a Haldanean and not an RGBM, does at least seem to perform iteratively and will credit for off-gassing outside their ceiling.

I would be happy with these after cross-validating the ascent schedule against a well-documented model.
Likewise for the DX "Suunto Fused RGBM" (again, RGBM adaptive factors folded over a Haldanean and not an iterative RGBM, it appears), though I can't for the life of me figure out why the need to "fuse" to the recreational mode... Wienke's explanations are not helpful.

[EDIT: I've just figured it out. The "Technical RGBM" behaves similarly to a GF modification. One valid criticism of gradient factors is that they are overly conservative before GFHi kicks in (GFLo could limit the ascent before GFHi would be exceeded). Suunto, with the DX, and rather cleverly in my mind, is in effect saying "if this isn't a deco dive, let's not worry about GFLo."]

Eric Maiken has published a lot of good material comparing (true) RGBM, Buhlmann and VPM ascent schedules across various mixes, depths and times. But, unfortunately, none of it applies to Suuntos.

DLK

Nitnab Nhoj
29-01-2013, 12:45 PM
I think of those Suuntos as recreational computers suitable for no-stop diving, with a sh*t/fan get-me-out-of-here mode once you hit deco. They're not really comparable to a VR3 (or other "tech" computers).

FWIW: They appear to use a pretty standard Haldanean model with some adaptive factors from a series of RGBM profiles folded over to modify (reduce) the tolerated tensions. I don't know why they didn't implement a standard off-gassing model (and hence Suunto minutes), but I suspect it concerned both the validity of the folded factors in an iterative computation and the expectation that getting shallow quick was the most critical factor (recreational gas volumes).

Personally, I would not dive these other than as NDL calculators or bottom timers.

The "Suunto Technical RGBM" (D9Tx, Helo2), while still adaptive factors folded over a Haldanean and not an RGBM, does at least seem to perform iteratively and will credit for off-gassing outside their ceiling.

I would be happy with these after cross-validating the ascent schedule against a well-documented model.
Likewise for the DX "Suunto Fused RGBM" (again, RGBM adaptive factors folded over a Haldanean and not an iterative RGBM, it appears), though I can't for the life of me figure out why the need to "fuse" to the recreational mode... Wienke's explanations are not helpful.

Eric Maiken has published a lot of good material comparing (true) RGBM, Buhlmann and VPM ascent schedules across various mixes, depths and times. But, unfortunately, none of it applies to Suuntos.

DLK

Can you arrange to discuss this with Bruce Wienke when he's next over here - and can I watch?

Charley
29-01-2013, 06:41 PM
although my lad is having fun playing my old vinyl albums on it now it's been reclaimed from the loft.

And don't call me Shirley!

Your Village People & Gary Glitter albums?