PDA

View Full Version : Maintenance and servicing



BenL
11-09-2014, 09:40 PM
The Maintenance and Servicing sub-forum is sub-titled: "Some people have the skill and knowledge to service their own life support equipment and want to share that knowledge. Here is the place to discuss it." I love this - it's an excellent resource for those who a) like being in a shed surrounded by gear and tools, and b) are too tight to send their suit off for a cuff seal job.

The recent threads regarding booster pumps (I know - this was in the sales forum), removing cylinder valves and 1st stage servicing had me thinking about how many divers have an interest in how our equipment works. Indeed, is there any real requirement to know, beyond a basic "this is what it does, and here's how to look after it"? Some of us are engineers, either by trade or by hobby, and so might have an automatic urge to really understand what's going on inside our equipment, and why it does what it does. There will be a subset in here who are further minded to tinker with regulator internals, deco algorithm code, scooters, gas mixing, rebreather homebuilds; all of which require skills beyond those for simply going diving. I suspect that most divers aren't interested in what goes on under the bonnet - just as long as it gets them from A to B (and, presumably, back to A) and leave it to the pros to service their gear without worrying too much about the processes involved.

Over to you, TDF masses: Which camp do you fall into?

MikeF
11-09-2014, 10:01 PM
you're making this up, how can anyone not be interested in working out how the stuff that allows us to do what we do works and how to optimise it?

Jen - Winged Blob
11-09-2014, 10:02 PM
I do languages, not engineering or any other sciences. I can change an o-ring. I can build a OPH. If I were confident that I were using the proper glue and not some Prittstick substitute, I could possibly hack some minor drysuit repairs. I do actually understand how the radiator feature of my Aqualung Glacia regs works, as heat was the only thing I understood in my school Physics class.

Everything else remains a delightful mystery.

BenL
11-09-2014, 10:05 PM
you're making this up, how can anyone not be interested in working out how the stuff that allows us to do what we do works and how to optimise it?

Baffles me too, but I know plenty of people who just don't care. kit-wankers! :fubar:

BenL
11-09-2014, 10:07 PM
...Everything else remains a delightful mystery.

good for you. it's torturous for us poor souls who need to know, then question it all... :s:

Paulo
11-09-2014, 10:11 PM
I know of people that call themselves instructors for various agencies that cant swap hoses around, one had no idea how to fit an STA to a BP&W and the list goes on. Some dont know anything other than the absolute basics which to me is silly. While I have never got around to learning how to service 1st stages I can do everything else.

All that being said I saw an MSDT that didnt know how to get onto a RIB!!

anvill72
11-09-2014, 10:19 PM
I want to know the principle of gow it works. I want to know how to use it, operate it and look after it.

If I can't fix it with a hammer, I'm getting someone else to do it.

notdeadyet
11-09-2014, 11:12 PM
I like being able to service and fix my own kit. I like being self-sufficient in my diving and had many trips where someone else's weekend has been saved by knowing how to change a seal quickly.

On the other hand I am inherently lazy and will pay for stuff I cant be arsed with. Like changing a zip.

I've not come across many jobs yet that would get a difficulty rating of more than three spanners in a Haynes manual. Some are tedious (drysuit zips) but few are difficult.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

BenL
11-09-2014, 11:18 PM
...Haynes manual...

Now there's a thought... Haynes have done some quirky pastiches of their car manuals. Perhaps there's room for a regulator manual "based on the stripdown and rebuild of the Apeks DST and with extensive use of step-by-step photographs" type thing? (with a full-colour centre section describing repainting your cylinder).

BenL
11-09-2014, 11:42 PM
Job done: me and NDY might well be millionaires this time next year...

Hello, Haynes.

Have you thought about a manual regarding SCUBA equipment?

ref. this forum thread:
http://www.thediveforum.com/showthread.php?12865-Maintenance-and-servicing&p=183018#post183018

Yes, it's niche, but with association with various UK manufacturers of
equipment, it might be an untapped market?

Thoughts appreciated,

Ben

--
ben libby
benlibby@fastmail.fm

rubber chicken
12-09-2014, 12:54 AM
I understand how my kit works and even how to service and maintain it. OTOH, I am a complete mechanical numpty. I will break things, lose things, misapply the wrong tools/parts, forget vital bits and end up afterwards with, not only a handful of miscellaneous nuts and washers but also, several springs/plastic doodads/o rings/seals and a hose with no idea of where they should go. It's a kind of mechanical dyslexia. Knowing this, I choose to let other, more god-like beings fiddle about with greasy fingers and skinned knuckles while I gaze out at the ocean and think big thoughts.

Joe Narvey
12-09-2014, 05:36 AM
Now there's a thought... Haynes have done some quirky pastiches of their car manuals. Perhaps there's room for a regulator manual "based on the stripdown and rebuild of the Apeks DST and with extensive use of step-by-step photographs" type thing? (with a full-colour centre section describing repainting your cylinder).

Apeks do exactly that, they have a PowerPoint that goes through step by step striping and rebuilding. In the spirit of the OP I might know someone that can share this if you PM me !

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 10:44 AM
I do languages, not engineering or any other sciences. I can change an o-ring. I can build a OPH. If I were confident that I were using the proper glue and not some Prittstick substitute, I could possibly hack some minor drysuit repairs. I do actually understand how the radiator feature of my Aqualung Glacia regs works, as heat was the only thing I understood in my school Physics class.

Everything else remains a delightful mystery.

Poor You.

Such a shameful of not atypical admission from those that read stuff and yap about it. Any wonder the "rinky dink" suppliers of your said West Yorkshire area make a fortune hosing the ignorant with trinkets and junk.

Read my lips LOL :s:

Iain (fluent in three) engineering in both.

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 11:04 AM
SNIP Which camp do you fall into?

Ben.

There is a huge difference between teaching an individual to competently inspect equipment ..................as opposed to service and repair it. These are two distinctly different aspects.
There is however a greater difference in ensuring that those do, do so in a reliable, maintainable and verifiable manner.

For those that don't wish to inspect there equipment, hone skills and increase in knowledge, statistic will ensue and my RIP best wishes for them standing before their creator.
Likewise for those who rely on kitchen sink scuba shops to do the service and maintenance only ignorance obfuscation and the promise of a sticky bun with tea to sweeten the fat bill.

notdeadyet
12-09-2014, 11:07 AM
Apeks do exactly that, they have a PowerPoint that goes through step by step striping and rebuilding. In the spirit of the OP I might know someone that can share this if you PM me !

It's available online somewhere. I had a link. Bit of Googling should turn it up.

The manual itself is clear enough though. Definite 2 spanner rating.

I'll still take the royalties though :)

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 11:13 AM
Try this in Pdf below should cause a stir

http://www.aqualung.com/militaryandprofessional/product_information/100580_TX50_TecManual_07_09_LoRes.pdf

Joe Narvey
12-09-2014, 11:25 AM
Try this in Pdf below should cause a stir

http://www.aqualung.com/militaryandprofessional/product_information/100580_TX50_TecManual_07_09_LoRes.pdf

I think the service manual is clearer than the PP training materials. There are very useful other documents that don't get out much too like the look up table of apeks O rings to their BS numbers

jamesp
12-09-2014, 11:26 AM
Try this in Pdf below should cause a stir

http://www.aqualung.com/militaryandprofessional/product_information/100580_TX50_TecManual_07_09_LoRes.pdf

Obviously missing your point.

Well written step by step service manual for use by any semi competent individual with a minimum level of prior knowledge.

Obviously written for the USA as vice was spelt vise.

The vice tool looks very similar to something I made for RNLI donations in the other place about six years ago.

BenL
12-09-2014, 11:28 AM
Ben.

There is a huge difference between teaching an individual to competently inspect equipment ..................as opposed to service and repair it. These are two distinctly different aspects.
No, Really?
There is however a greater difference in ensuring that those do, do so in a reliable, maintainable and verifiable manner.

For those that don't wish to inspect there equipment, hone skills and increase in knowledge, statistic will ensue and my RIP best wishes for them standing before their creator.
Likewise for those who rely on kitchen sink scuba shops to do the service and maintenance only ignorance obfuscation and the promise of a sticky bun with tea to sweeten the fat bill.

I am aware of your observation. To be fair, Iain, you're not exactly what one might describe as a "typical diver". You (and others) possess knowledge and skills way beyond those required to actually just go diving.

I'm curious as to how many divers a) give thought to how the equipment they're relying on works, and b) how deep this technical knowledge needs to be.

PBrown
12-09-2014, 11:34 AM
I think the service manual is clearer than the PP training materials. There are very useful other documents that don't get out much too like the look up table of apeks O rings to their BS numbers

http://www.frogkick.nl/files/apeks_o-ring_specificaties.pdf

cheers,
Paul

PBrown
12-09-2014, 11:49 AM
I'm curious as to how many divers a) give thought to how the equipment they're relying on works, and b) how deep this technical knowledge needs to be.

Probably about as much thought as I give to my car, I put fuel in it, check the tyre pressure once in a blue moon, fill the wash bottle when it runs out & drop it in for a service when the pretty little light on the dashboard tells me to. I have neither the inclination, or the time, to do any more than that & I'm happy (well, willing) to pay somebody else to deal with all the other stuff.

Dive kit I have more of an interest in, but only to a) save money & b) fix it well enough to salvage a dive trip. In terms of learning about it for 'enjoyment', forget it. I'd rather get my enjoyment from using it.

cheers,
Paul

Jen - Winged Blob
12-09-2014, 11:51 AM
Poor You.

Such a shameful of not atypical admission from those that read stuff and yap about it. Any wonder the "rinky dink" suppliers of your said West Yorkshire area make a fortune hosing the ignorant with trinkets and junk.

Read my lips LOL :s:

Iain (fluent in three) engineering in both.

Yes, when you consider that I drive a car without intimate knowledge of the workings of the combustion engine, and switch lights and gas on in my house in ignorance of wiring systems and copper pipe routing, really itís astonishing that Iíve made it this far in life. Especially living as I do in nefarious Said West Yorkshire.

Still, at least when your prophecy comes to pass and Iím standing there before my creator dangling all my trinkets, you can be confident that he wonít confuse me with a serious diver such as your esteemed self. :)

edward
12-09-2014, 12:13 PM
I'm the kind of person who likes to take stuff apart just for fun. These days I even manage to get some of it back together:)

Those apeks manauls are wrong. None of them list a 2lb ball pein hammer and a giant set of stilsons as 'essential'. Torque wrench - smork wrench, whats wrong with gorilla-ing everything home with a bar on the spanner?

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 12:27 PM
Probably about as much thought as I give to my car, I put fuel in it, check the tyre pressure once in a blue moon, fill the wash bottle when it runs out & drop it in for a service when the pretty little light on the dashboard tells me to. I have neither the inclination, or the time, to do any more than that & I'm happy (well, willing) to pay somebody else to deal with all the other stuff.

Dive kit I have more of an interest in, but only to a) save money & b) fix it well enough to salvage a dive trip. In terms of learning about it for 'enjoyment', forget it. I'd rather get my enjoyment from using it.

cheers,
Paul

Paul out of interest, the make model and age of your car?

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 12:28 PM
Yes, when you consider that I drive a car without intimate knowledge of the workings of the combustion engine, and switch lights and gas on in my house in ignorance of wiring systems and copper pipe routing, really it’s astonishing that I’ve made it this far in life. Especially living as I do in nefarious Said West Yorkshire.

Still, at least when your prophecy comes to pass and I’m standing there before my creator dangling all my trinkets, you can be confident that he won’t confuse me with a serious diver such as your esteemed self. :)

Same question to you Jen Make model and age please

Jen - Winged Blob
12-09-2014, 12:35 PM
Same question to you Jen Make model and age please

Toyota Auris 2008

Joe Narvey
12-09-2014, 12:45 PM
http://www.frogkick.nl/files/apeks_o-ring_specificaties.pdf

cheers,
Paul

Exactly

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 01:18 PM
http://www.frogkick.nl/files/apeks_o-ring_specificaties.pdf

cheers,
Paul

There is an interesting side question here as to why Apeks Marine use EPDM 0-rings as opposed to Viton.

They were told to by Aqualung the parent company.

Aqualung is owned by Air Liquide, the chairman of which did his thesis on EPDM and despite questions and advise from engineers, EPDM it is.

His main issue against Viton was when Viton ignites it decomposes into some pretty nasty toxic gases.

However Viton has a much higher ignition temperature than EPDM
It is also a better performing component for dynamic loads such as in a regulator piston.

For most engineers the balance is in favour of using Viton than the poorer EPDM compound.
The higher the temperature or oxygen percentage Viton will handle is complimented by its higher performance.

The only draw back is if it ignites what about this toxic gas. Some how I feel that would be the least of your worries. Ce la vie. LOL

Incidentally if you are looking to source your own 0-rings do ensure you order "Aircraft Quality" and have both the Batch number and the cure date

That way you avoid the hydraulic shops selling you a ten year old "washer" thats been on the shelf with the grease and grim the last decade.

To be fair at least Aqualung know to specify Christo-Lube in the manual and we all know where to get that from.:s: LOL Iain

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 01:22 PM
To be fair, Iain, you're not exactly what one might describe as a "typical diver". You (and others) possess knowledge and skills way beyond those required to actually just go diving.


Thankfully both of which are easily and freely transferable. Iain

PBrown
12-09-2014, 02:01 PM
Paul out of interest, the make model and age of your car?

Car - Skoda Fabia greenline, 2009, 112,000 miles on clock
Van - Mercedes Vito 2003, 370,000 miles on clock

Why?

cheers,
Paul

PBrown
12-09-2014, 02:10 PM
His main issue against Viton was when Viton ignites it decomposes into some pretty nasty toxic gases.

I've seen the inside of a reg after the seat on the cylinder valve went, it also took out the sealing o-ring on the reg, (thankfully only buna) and I'm pretty sure the internal temps got over 200C, so personally I'll stick to EDPM.

cheers,
Paul

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 03:53 PM
I've seen the inside of a reg after the seat on the cylinder valve went, it also took out the sealing o-ring on the reg, (thankfully only buna) and I'm pretty sure the internal temps got over 200C, so personally I'll stick to EDPM.

cheers,
Paul

Paul

Frankly a pointless and misguided conclusion to stick with EPDM especially at over 200C, save to ask the question.

Why? Were you breathing from it at the time? Iain



EPDM at 100 bar has an auto ignition temperature of around 160C
Viton at 100 bar has an auto ignition temperature of around 350C

iain/hsm
12-09-2014, 05:04 PM
Car - Skoda Fabia greenline, 2009, 112,000 miles on clock
Van - Mercedes Vito 2003, 370,000 miles on clock

Why?

cheers,
Paul

I was simply trying to work out if there was any possible relationship or analogy between the original question of self regulator servicing
and you and Jen's post about your cars. I'm struggling for a link so far.

Albeit your regulator seat fire is more interesting and beggars more question firstly why the idiot was using Buna N for the 0-rings
and if you would confirm it was pure oxygen in the cylinder.

Iain. Car - Mercedes 220 AMG Sport Coupe 2014, 5500 miles on the clock
Fork lift truck: Jungheinrich TFG 320 with 22 hours on the clock 2 tonne lift 4 metre reach LOL :smirk:

Jen - Winged Blob
12-09-2014, 05:25 PM
I was simply trying to work out if there was any possible relationship or analogy between the original question of self regulator servicing
and you and Jen's post about your cars. I'm struggling for a link so far.:

Disappointing. I was expecting to be told that if I shut myself into a steel box weighing 2 tons and fling it around the roads at a speed unnatural to humans, I should acquaint myself fully with the inner workings and servicing of it, rather than take it into a garage only to emerge with faulty workmanship and fluffy dice.

Joe Narvey
12-09-2014, 05:30 PM
Disappointing. I was expecting to be told that if I shut myself into a steel box weighing 2 tons and fling it around the roads at a speed unnatural to humans, I should acquaint myself fully with the inner workings and servicing of it, rather than take it into a garage only to emerge with faulty workmanship and fluffy dice.

Are you crazy ? Don't taunt him !!

Jen - Winged Blob
12-09-2014, 05:42 PM
Are you crazy ? Don't taunt him !!

I've got a reputation for yapping to live up to, I'll have you know! ;)

Joe Narvey
12-09-2014, 08:14 PM
He's gone quiet, prepare to be told !

DiverMike
12-09-2014, 08:43 PM
As a CCR diver I have a multitude of cylinders and regs so I took a course to enable me to competently service them (and easily source service kits). Saved me a fortune, saved a few dives.

on the I ring debate - AP recommend Againt viton fir a number of their CCR orings (can't remember which without looking at the specs)

iain/hsm
13-09-2014, 05:13 AM
As a CCR diver I have a multitude of cylinders and regs so I took a course to enable me to competently service them (and easily source service kits). Saved me a fortune, saved a few dives.

on the I ring debate - AP recommend Againt viton fir a number of their CCR orings (can't remember which without looking at the specs)

Mike

Fully agree on the self service aspect. Doesn't take long to feel the benefit in return. Isnt that difficult, saves a fortune and ensures maintainability.

On the other hand Ap and Martin Parker in particular have "recommended" a number of "things" in the past.

I recall a hefty pinch of salt also required. Iain

DiverMike
13-09-2014, 06:36 AM
Fully agree on the self service aspect. Doesn't take long to feel the benefit in return. Isnt that difficult, saves a fortune and ensures maintainability.


One of the things I enjoyed about the course was the discussion on o-ring material and the relative merits. The instructor didn't make a firm recommendation either way - presented the facts, presented the standard industry practice (viton for O2) and left it to us to make our minds up.
I also enjoyed the photo and videos of O2 incidents - shows how when it does go wrong it goes wrong in a big way.

turnerjd
07-10-2014, 12:19 PM
Job done: me and NDY might well be millionaires this time next year...

Hello, Haynes.

Have you thought about a manual regarding SCUBA equipment?

ref. this forum thread:
http://www.thediveforum.com/showthread.php?12865-Maintenance-and-servicing&p=183018#post183018

Yes, it's niche, but with association with various UK manufacturers of
equipment, it might be an untapped market?

Thoughts appreciated,

Ben

--
ben libby
benlibby@fastmail.fm

Hah,

I'm about 1/3 of the way through writing exactly that........

I've been equipment officer of my club for too many years, and seen far too much muppetry. So I'm trying to write down as much of what I've learned over the last 10 years as possible. If anybody would like to help........

I might have to make both an English and a French version.

Jon T

BenL
07-10-2014, 12:40 PM
I never received a response from Haynes, btw...

turnerjd
07-10-2014, 12:42 PM
Wouldn't expect much of an answer from them.

I'm currently looking at how to secure e-books and distribute them myself.......

Jon