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View Full Version : Should would be rUK citizens get to vote on Scottish Independence?



Mikael
03-09-2014, 07:57 PM
If Scotland were to go independent this would greatly affect effect the rest of the UK (rUK). I can sympathise with why Welsh, English and Northern Irish citizens would feel a bit put out by the fact that this is a was the result of a referendum they have no say in. That said in all the the talk about the referendum I am genuinely surprised at the number of people who suggest that would be rUK citizens should get a vote (some jokingly others less so).

At the end of day this 300 year old union was a voluntary one. I agree with the principal that any constitution country should have the right to vote over whether they wishes to stay in or leave the union. The the idea that the others could vote on the issue and through overwhelming numbers either force the country to stay or leave whether they want it or not seems fundamentally wrong to me and I am baffled that some would suggest it.

When voting in the poll please remember that it is question is all about where you are ordinarily resident and whether you should get a vote accordingly. This is not about what family connections you have, where you were born or what accent you speak in. There are Scots living in London who don't get a vote and there are Welsh living in Aberdeen who do. The rights and wrong of this are the subject of a different discussion.

notdeadyet
03-09-2014, 08:02 PM
Don't live there, don't get a vote.

I'm negatively affected by the ignorant twats in other constituencies that vote tory but why should I be allowed to vote in their patch?

graham_hk
03-09-2014, 08:06 PM
I am baffled that we (the tax payers) are having to pay for this and that we (the rest of the uk) are having to put up with this ... I would vote to get rid of scotland the rest of the UK would be better off without the scottish. I find it insulting that the scottish can decide if they stay or not but we can not decide if we want you or not.

ziggi
03-09-2014, 08:10 PM
Some people would like to see a referendum on in/out of the EU,
should the rest of Europe be given a referendum to kick us out?

drysuitdiver
03-09-2014, 08:26 PM
Voluntary? Hmm that's stretching the definition a bit. Had no choice is better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

jamesp
03-09-2014, 08:31 PM
Don't live there, don't get a vote.

I'm negatively affected by the ignorant twats in other constituencies that vote tory but why should I be allowed to vote in their patch?

Ditto.

Except round here its a dog turd painted red could get elected.

Safe seat, ignore and move on.

Pea Cake
03-09-2014, 08:38 PM
Somewhat academic now!
Should have asked the question ages ago.

Pea Cake
03-09-2014, 08:42 PM
Whoops, double post. Why can't we delete?

notdeadyet
03-09-2014, 08:59 PM
the rest of the UK would be better off without the scottish.

Yeah, England would be soooooooo much better off propping Wales and Northern Ireland up on its own.

I am, however, happy to accept your vote to get rid of us :)

graham_hk
03-09-2014, 09:01 PM
haha - propping NI and Wales up is better than propping up Wales, NI and scotland :)

notdeadyet
03-09-2014, 09:02 PM
Ditto.

Except round here its a dog turd painted red could get elected.

Safe seat, ignore and move on.

If Cameron, Darling and Clegg's campaign wins, which it probably will, then it is a sad day for politics. If that trio of utter cnuts can move people to vote for them then the dump I produce tomorrow morning probably stands a good chance of being elected somewhere.

Stew W
03-09-2014, 09:11 PM
Is something happening with Scotland? I haven't heard a thing about it, was it on the news at all?

Hickdive
03-09-2014, 09:13 PM
Fortunately, a No vote is not a vote for Cameron etc. anymore than a Yes vote is a vote for Salmond.

dwhitlow
03-09-2014, 09:18 PM
Don't live there, don't get a vote.

I'm negatively affected by the ignorant twats in other constituencies that vote tory but why should I be allowed to vote in their patch?
It is not the same. I live in the UK and do not see why I should foot the bill for a bunch of selfish fools who have been conned into believing they can run away with all the assets they can grab and leave me with the bill!

Titanic
03-09-2014, 09:22 PM
Is something happening with Scotland? I haven't heard a thing about it, was it on the news at all?

Are you an MP?

Titanic
03-09-2014, 09:23 PM
It is not the same. I live in the UK and do not see why I should foot the bill for a bunch of selfish fools who have been conned into believing they can run away with all the assets they can grab and leave me with the bill!

I'm confused, is there some sort of vote to elect new bankers?

graham_hk
03-09-2014, 09:31 PM
I'm confused, is there some sort of vote to elect new bankers?

No bankers and politicians do the conning of selfish fools. They both come out smelling of roses and quids in regardless of the result

dunk67
03-09-2014, 09:35 PM
First post...hello.

David Cameron signed the Edinburgh Agreement in 2012 which restricted the voters in the referendum to residents of Scotland.

Logun
03-09-2014, 09:36 PM
the scenario I want wasn't an option so I had to pick the closest. I think that everyone living in Scotland should get a vote, plus everyone who was born in Scotland but now lives in rUK. This is because these people may have their citizenship altered in the result of a yes, so they also deserve a voice.

welshand1
03-09-2014, 09:45 PM
I personally can't make heads nor tails of who gets what if Scotland goes independent, and though I could be wrong, I believe they would wish to retain the GBP as currency and any UK government and EEC subsidies/handouts. If that be true, where is the independence? Surely independence means standing on your own 2 feet, can Scotland (or Wales or NI) actually do that? I'm not so sure

notdeadyet
03-09-2014, 09:57 PM
It is not the same. I live in the UK and do not see why I should foot the bill for a bunch of selfish fools who have been conned into believing they can run away with all the assets they can grab and leave me with the bill!

Yeah, you wouldn't get anyone else doing that would you? Where's that tory donor list gone? Oh that's right, they all fooked off to Bermuda when the economy had a minor dip...

notdeadyet
03-09-2014, 10:00 PM
Fortunately, a No vote is not a vote for Cameron etc. anymore than a Yes vote is a vote for Salmond.

Maybe I should put it another way. If the No campaign isn't terminally damaged by it being fronted by that trio of odious cnuts then there is something badly wrong.

Mikael
03-09-2014, 11:02 PM
First post...hello.

David Cameron signed the Edinburgh Agreement in 2012 which restricted the voters in the referendum to residents of Scotland.


Welcome to the forum :party:

Why not stick up a post in the Introduction section to tell us a little about yourself and the diving you do.

Best wishes,
Mikael

Iain Smith
03-09-2014, 11:31 PM
If Cameron, Darling and Clegg's campaign wins, which it probably will, then it is a sad day for politics. If that trio of utter cnuts can move people to vote for them then the dump I produce tomorrow morning probably stands a good chance of being elected somewhere.

When the alternative is a campaign lead by a serial liar and fantasist, one might consider oneself to be between a rock and a hard place. I'm not saying Cameron et al are necessarily any more truthful, but at least they are less blatantly stupid about lying and have at least some grounding in the real world.

BenL
03-09-2014, 11:41 PM
Welcome to the forum :party:

Why not stick up a post in the Introduction section to tell us a little about yourself and the diving you do.

Best wishes,
Mikael

Why? This isn't a diving related subject.... What diving do you do Mikael? All you seem to do these days is post about fairy tales and tartan unicorns.

Gareth Jones
03-09-2014, 11:47 PM
.......... Cameron et al ........ have at least some grounding in the real world.

Really? Which world is that? Discworld? :)

Mikael
03-09-2014, 11:58 PM
Why? This isn't a diving related subject.... What diving do you do Mikael? All you seem to do these days is post about fairy tales and tartan unicorns.

Shore diving mostly. Just planning the club's easter trip as it happens which will be to the Isle of Skye (hear they have a lot mythical creatures up that way).

Cheeky Monkey
04-09-2014, 12:05 AM
Cameron et al ......... have at least some grounding in the real world.

I don't know Al, but if Cameron is in the real world I must be in the other one

BenL
04-09-2014, 12:32 AM
Shore diving mostly. Just planning the club's easter trip as it happens which will be to the Isle of Skye (hear they have a lot mythical creatures up that way).

And what the buggery-fcuk has that to do with: a) scotch independence, and b) whether another scotch person might deign to contribute to your debate, in a diving or non-diving manner?

As it goes, a purely unscientific reading of your poll suggests that there's an awful lot of disenfranchised "rUK" people out there, who rather resent the fact that "iS*" might be a bad thing for them. It's been done to death already, I know. But surely worth reiterating here:

Give Scotland back to the Scottish (or Swedish, whatever.) As long as I can have my Tunnocks and IrnBru in a free market economy, go for your life... By the way - Faslane will be annexed and the import duty on Bucky alone will more than offset the savings on the UKNHS...





Oh, and the oil belongs to the uk.... Ok?

Hickdive
04-09-2014, 08:56 AM
Maybe I should put it another way. If the No campaign isn't terminally damaged by it being fronted by that trio of odious cnuts then there is something badly wrong.

Odious they are indeed but they are also mortal and, despite what he might wish, so is Salmond.

Unlike an election, where a fundamentally stupid idea or policy can be dismissed at a later date through voting, independence will be irreversible. Salmond, Cameron et al will eventually disappear but we'll still be stuck with Salmond's half-witted ideas whilst Cameron's are replaced by the latest "big idea".

Judging by the number of yes voters who have said they're prepared to "give independence a chance" despite the well publicised problems; it seems many haven't quite grasped the concept that independence will be permanent.

Doomanic
04-09-2014, 10:35 AM
Judging by the number of yes voters who have said they're prepared to "give independence a chance" despite the well publicised problems; it seems many haven't quite grasped the concept that independence will be permanent.I'm not convinced that the majority of yes voters will be able to spell yes on their ballot papers, never mind understand the implications of their vote!

Hickdive
04-09-2014, 11:06 AM
I'm not convinced that the majority of yes voters will be able to spell yes on their ballot papers, never mind understand the implications of their vote!

The ballot has been specially adapted to allow for them. All they have to do is put an X in a box.

Baron015
04-09-2014, 01:42 PM
Maybe I should put it another way. If the No campaign isn't terminally damaged by it being fronted by that trio of odious cnuts then there is something badly wrong.

Quite a surprise they are spearheading the No campaign then seeing as a Yes vote will fatally weaken the Labour Party in Westminster by withdrawal of the Scot Lab MPs. We can look forward to many years of Tory rule after a Yes vote.

Of course being such a bitter cynic you will probably find some other explanation for why they are supporting something that is clearly bad for them personally and their parties .... Couldn't be because they genuinely believe in the argument that it is actually better for UK to remain together ??

Mikael
04-09-2014, 01:54 PM
The poll was slow to start but now has got a few more votes.
There have only been six who have a vote that responded so far.
Of those that don't have a vote, ie ordinarily resident else where the overwhelming majority think that all UK citizens should get a vote.

I would seem a safe bet to say that with its UK dominated membership TDF has far greater number of would be rUK members then those based in Scotland. Can we therefore conclude in a very unscientific way that the way TDF has voted so far in this poll is representative of the sentiment out on the street?

I would imagine that while most would be rUK citizens are following the debate to so some extent many are quite distant from it especially now that government has raised the terror alert level and that the Ukraine issue is heating up (Cameron with his we should not appease Putin like Hitler rhetoric). Given that the discussion here on TDF about independence so far as been restricted to handful of commentators most with quietly strongly entrenched positions the poll might well represent a noisy minority as opposed to the actual broader consensus if everyone was pushed to express an opinion.

Grievances over "I don't want to pay" aside, can those who think all UK citizens should get a vote please explain their rational. I would be interested to hear it.
Cheers,

sheesh
04-09-2014, 02:06 PM
It is a vote that will affect the UK as a whole. It is a vote that could affect institutions like the BoE, membership of the EU, economic interests such as access to fisheries, issues around border control (if Scotland decides it wants to join Europe and become part of the Schengen (sp?) area, then there are the obvious issues such as who pays for it all, what about shared services such as the NHS, defence issues etc etc etc....

sheesh
04-09-2014, 02:07 PM
I would have no say either way living in Jersey, to some extent I am an impartial observer

Ron MacRae
04-09-2014, 02:13 PM
I was born in Scotland, as we're my parents & grandparents, and lived there for my first 40 years. I had planned to go back when I retire.

If this sleeket wee shit manages to conn enough stupid people into voting yes then that idea is a non starter.

I should have a vote.

Mikael
04-09-2014, 02:16 PM
It is a vote that will affect the UK as a whole. It is a vote that could affect institutions like the BoE, membership of the EU, economic interests such as access to fisheries, issues around border control (if Scotland decides it wants to join Europe and become part of the Schengen (sp?) area, then there are the obvious issues such as who pays for it all, what about shared services such as the NHS, defence issues etc etc etc....

That's the motivation and an understandable one but is not in itself a justification. There are many things in which we have no say that affect us. Despite the motivation I still can not see how it could be deemed the right thing for the rest of the UK to potentially over rule Scotland's democratic decision irrespective of whether that would force us to stay or leave.

At the end of the day all of the UK has been represented by Westminster when it agreed that the outcome of the referendum in Scotland would respected.

Mikael
04-09-2014, 02:18 PM
I was born in Scotland, as we're my parents & grandparents, and lived there for my first 40 years. I had planned to go back when I retire.

If this sleeket wee shit manages to conn enough stupid people into voting yes then that idea is a non starter.

I should have a vote.

You could have moved back to Scotland to make sure you got the vote as this is something that matters to you.

CraigofScotland
04-09-2014, 02:36 PM
Should England have its own parliament . . after all Scotland has thirs and Welsh have something too . ..

Maybe England should go independent.

Mikael
04-09-2014, 02:47 PM
Should England have its own parliament . . after all Scotland has thirs and Welsh have something too . ..

Maybe England should go independent.

At the very least it should have devolution in my opinion, ideally said parliament should be placed outside of the M25 so politicians remember that there is more then just London.

jturner
04-09-2014, 03:25 PM
Centres of governance always gather around centres of power. Like it or not, the power in this country mainly resides in London.

Baron015
04-09-2014, 03:41 PM
At the very least it should have devolution in my opinion, ideally said parliament should be placed outside of the M25 so politicians remember that there is more then just London.

Perhaps you could research for us, the list of countries that don't have their main parliament or equivalent in their capital city.

sheesh
04-09-2014, 04:17 PM
That's the motivation and an understandable one but is not in itself a justification. There are many things in which we have no say that affect us. Despite the motivation I still can not see how it could be deemed the right thing for the rest of the UK to potentially over rule Scotland's democratic decision irrespective of whether that would force us to stay or leave.

At the end of the day all of the UK has been represented by Westminster when it agreed that the outcome of the referendum in Scotland would respected.
That's fine then... as long as the people making the choice pick up the tab. With choices come responsibilities. I moved out from the ex Mrs and have walked away with nothing bar a couple of bookcases and some really shitty credit card debts. To my mind a yes vote is effectively the same.

graham_hk
04-09-2014, 04:34 PM
Maybe England should go independent.

now theres an idea

Pea Cake
04-09-2014, 07:31 PM
If Scotland were to go independent this would greatly affect effect the rest of the UK (rUK). I can sympathise with why Welsh, English and Northern Irish citizens would feel a bit put out by the fact that this is a was the result of a referendum they have no say in. That said in all the the talk about the referendum I am genuinely surprised at the number of people who suggest that would be rUK citizens should get a vote (some jokingly others less so).

At the end of day this 300 year old union was a voluntary one. I agree with the principal that any constitution country should have the right to vote over whether they wishes to stay in or leave the union. The the idea that the others could vote on the issue and through overwhelming numbers either force the country to stay or leave whether they want it or not seems fundamentally wrong to me and I am baffled that some would suggest it.

When voting in the poll please remember that it is question is all about where you are ordinarily resident and whether you should get a vote accordingly. This is not about what family connections you have, where you were born or what accent you speak in. There are Scots living in London who don't get a vote and there are Welsh living in Aberdeen who do. The rights and wrong of this are the subject of a different discussion.

Eh!

jamesp
04-09-2014, 07:53 PM
At the very least it should have devolution in my opinion, ideally said parliament should be placed outside of the M25 so politicians remember that there is more then just London.

You all ready have a devolved government, its called Westminster.

From my point of view, the amount of legislation that gets bandied about with, "but not in Scotland or Wales" on the news suggests that westminster is allready a regional government; just overpopulated.
It does get frustrating when you see the Prime Minister of the country launching new legislation for the country, which has no impact on you, because you are now regarded as not quite the country.
Especially for Health and Education, where devolved government has made such a bang up job.


I voted against Welsh devolution, the margin in favour was less than 5% from memory, but thats the problem with yes/no largest minority wins.
Decisions like this should have a clear % of the electorate to pass, not just the largest minority of a crap turn out.

What we ended up with was a Half and Half Arsed extra layer of government and increased cost.

Mikael
04-09-2014, 08:06 PM
You all ready have a devolved government, its called Westminster.

From my point of view, the amount of legislation that gets bandied about with, "but not in Scotland or Wales" on the news suggests that westminster is allready a regional government; just overpopulated.
It does get frustrating when you see the Prime Minister of the country launching new legislation for the country, which has no impact on you, because you are now regarded as not quite the country.
Especially for Health and Education, where devolved government has made such a bang up job.


I voted against Welsh devolution, the margin in favour was less than 5% from memory, but thats the problem with yes/no largest minority wins.
Decisions like this should have a clear % of the electorate to pass, not just the largest minority of a crap turn out.

What we ended up with was a Half and Half Arsed extra layer of government and increased cost.

According to Wikipedia the Welsh 1997 referendum had a turnout of just 50.1%
Even by UK general election standards this is a poor turnout, why was that?

jamesp
04-09-2014, 08:37 PM
According to Wikipedia the Welsh 1997 referendum had a turnout of just 50.1%
Even by UK general election standards this is a poor turnout, why was that?

My mistake 0.6% wining margin.

Why the low turnout?

75% of the electorate were either against it or not interested.
A large percentage of the population expected to get rammed with it any way, so why bother.
Labour were YES, and in most of Wales painting it red gets a vote with out the need for pointless exercises such as actual thought.
If you look at the wiki map, strip out Gwynedd, Ceridigion and Camarthenshire as Welsh language strongholds then the Yes vote was all RCT and valleys. Probably some of the safest Labour seats in History.
Everywhere with an English Border or an IQ voted no.

To this day if you drew a line from Ceridigion to Bangor, nothing to the left of it ever gets on BBC welsh news.
Yns Mon sank back into the sea after Kate and Wills left and a line from Ceridigion to Brecon would be about as far North as the BBC(juciy murders excluded) and the Welsh Assembly can be bothered with.
When Airbus were tarting for grants to build the A380 wing plant in Broughton, North Wales, This being a direct employer of around 8000 in the region and many more indirectly: The economic development commitee from Chester Council approached the Welsh Assembly government with a view to a joint strategy.
The reply was "Its an English factory, you deal with it".

It scare me witless that some grandstanding prick in South Wales is going to decide its "Wales for independance" next.
That would get me very politically motivated.

yazzyfooty
04-09-2014, 09:56 PM
I was born in Scotland of a Scottish mother and not able to vote although I heard anyone living in Scotland has the right to vote (not sure if that is factual though). Is that right?

dunk67
04-09-2014, 10:04 PM
Yazzyfooty, this is a cut and paste from the Edinburgh Agreement;

The Scottish Parliamentary franchise enables British, Irish, qualifying Commonwealth citizens and
European Union citizens resident in Scotland to vote.

Hickdive
04-09-2014, 10:08 PM
I was born in Scotland of a Scottish mother and not able to vote although I heard anyone living in Scotland has the right to vote (not sure if that is factual though). Is that right?

Yes, if you're a registered voter in Scotland you get a vote regardless of any other consideration.

However, if you're not a registered voter in Scotland, you don't get a vote. For example, the Scots Guards are currently garrisoned in England. As most of them register their base as their home address they're not registered to vote in Scotland so don't get a say.

Baron015
04-09-2014, 10:14 PM
Yes, if you're a registered voter in Scotland you get a vote regardless of any other consideration.

However, if you're not a registered voter in Scotland, you don't get a vote. For example, the Scots Guards are currently garrisoned in England. As most of them register their base as their home address they're not registered to vote in Scotland so don't get a say.

I've got a whole gaggle of Latvian distant relatives who are currently working in various places in Scotland at the moment since the pay is better than back home. They all get to vote. They will all vote No. They think it's mad to leave the Union and the EU.

rubber chicken
05-09-2014, 02:28 AM
I say, let them go.


Think of how far you can make them crawl when, in ten years time, it's all gone mammeries uppermost and they want back in

drysuitdiver
05-09-2014, 06:49 AM
My mistake 0.6% wining margin.

Why the low turnout?

75% of the electorate were either against it or not interested.
A large percentage of the population expected to get rammed with it any way, so why bother.
Labour were YES, and in most of Wales painting it red gets a vote with out the need for pointless exercises such as actual thought.
If you look at the wiki map, strip out Gwynedd, Ceridigion and Camarthenshire as Welsh language strongholds then the Yes vote was all RCT and valleys. Probably some of the safest Labour seats in History.
Everywhere with an English Border or an IQ voted no.

To this day if you drew a line from Ceridigion to Bangor, nothing to the left of it ever gets on BBC welsh news.
Yns Mon sank back into the sea after Kate and Wills left and a line from Ceridigion to Brecon would be about as far North as the BBC(juciy murders excluded) and the Welsh Assembly can be bothered with.
When Airbus were tarting for grants to build the A380 wing plant in Broughton, North Wales, This being a direct employer of around 8000 in the region and many more indirectly: The economic development commitee from Chester Council approached the Welsh Assembly government with a view to a joint strategy.
The reply was "Its an English factory, you deal with it".

It scare me witless that some grandstanding prick in South Wales is going to decide its "Wales for independance" next.
That would get me very politically motivated.

when I was back up for the Bank Holiday I was talking to some friends who are Plaid. They were hinting that if scotland did vote yes then some of the hardline eeejits at the top of PC were mumbling about maybe. my two friends were wholly against the suggestion as they know that Wales couldn't survive alone, even if there was still the coal steel copper industry it would still struggle.

and thats my biggest gripe about watching welsh News is that it is almost always South Wales news. there was an article in a cycle magazine about best Welsh bike shops. not one was further north than brecon . I wrote and asked if they thought thst because there were big hills in N Wales they thought that real cyclists didnt exixst. I still await an answer.