PDA

View Full Version : Scotland independence?



Pages : [1] 2

Pea Cake
02-09-2014, 08:21 PM
Yes or No?
How would you vote?
And no third choice like "who gives a toss"!

Joe Narvey
02-09-2014, 08:33 PM
I don't really care, but I do hope they get the finance right.

notdeadyet
02-09-2014, 08:34 PM
Yes or no what?

What I think the result would be or how I'd vote?

I think the result will be no, I'd vote yes.

dwhitlow
02-09-2014, 08:37 PM
I hope the vote is 'no' just to see what the nationists do next! :rofl:

(part of me dreads is being 'yes' as that will be bad for all (most))

Pea Cake
02-09-2014, 08:39 PM
Yes or no what?

What I think the result would be or how I'd vote?

I think the result will be no, I'd vote yes.

I meant how would you vote.........

R0ckcrew
02-09-2014, 08:44 PM
I have voted Yes.. And my postal vote is winging its way.

MikeF
02-09-2014, 08:49 PM
I hope the vote is 'no' just to see what the nationists do next! :rofl:

(part of me dreads is being 'yes' as that will be bad for all (most))

convince themselve that it's all the fault of 'westminster' aka 'the english' and that the nation didn't really get a chance to make the right decision and then ask the same question again and again until they get the answer they want.

Mikael
02-09-2014, 09:10 PM
Interestingly the pro Yes campaign group radical independence (http://radicalindependence.org/2014/08/12/national-mass-canvass-2-results/) has on two occasions carried out mass canvassing events during which the first thing they did was ask the person's voting intentions. These events reached a much greater number of people then pollsters typically ask in their surveys. As disclaimer, off course radical independence is not a neutral party in this and people may well adopt their answer when some one comes knocking with a clipboard. That said their findings are in stark contrast to the polls;

http://radicalindependence.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/MASSCANVRESULTS2.png

http://radicalindependence.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/MASSCANV2.png

It looks like that this referendum will have a) a high turnout and b) will likely be a close result

MikeF
02-09-2014, 09:17 PM
Interestingly the pro Yes campaign group radical independence (http://radicalindependence.org/2014/08/12/national-mass-canvass-2-results/) has on two occasions carried out mass canvassing events during which the first thing they did was ask the person's voting intentions. These events reached a much greater number of people then pollsters typically ask in their surveys. As disclaimer, off course radical independence is not a neutral party in this and people may well adopt their answer when some one comes knocking with a clipboard. That said their findings are in stark contrast to the polls;


that'll be an unbiased poll then won't it?

'That said their findings are in stark contrast to the polls'

really? how amazing who could have forseen that?

Mikael
02-09-2014, 09:26 PM
that'll be an unbiased poll then won't it?

'That said their findings are in stark contrast to the polls'

really? how amazing who could have forseen that?

Take from it what you want.
I am not saying you have to believe a word of what they print.

witchieblackcat
02-09-2014, 10:26 PM
I think the result will be no, I'd vote yes.

Does that mean you'll be going home to freedom? ;)

Diving Dude
03-09-2014, 12:18 AM
Beat me to it WBC. l wonder, if the sweaties vote yes, will all the Jocks living in civilization down here fook off back 'home'?

braun
03-09-2014, 05:29 AM
http://s15.postimg.org/mezspwvej/31_01_13_Steve_Bell_on_th_006.jpg
Personally I think a yes vote will be bad for all but if it is truly what the Scots want then have it. BUT have it in it's absolute entirety without any financial reliance on the rest of the UK.
I do worry that at some point in the future it is going to cost us a fortune to bail them out when it all goes tits up.

Logun
03-09-2014, 07:35 AM
Beat me to it WBC. l wonder, if the sweaties vote yes, will all the Jocks living in civilization down here fook off back 'home'?

I wont be.

Logun
03-09-2014, 07:36 AM
I wont be.

Not that I have a vote anyway, even though I would gain a citizenship in the result of a yes vote.

Mark Chase
03-09-2014, 07:56 AM
I think its mind numbingly pathetic that in an age where we should be thinking on a global scale there are people who are still so closed that they think its better to split things up into infantisamaly small regions of decision making and power.

We are a small island and pepole want to break that up into still smaller pieces????

How the hell are we ever going to progress with such stone age thinking.

Asking for the yes no vote is just banging on the door of localised pride. Its like asking Man U suporters if Man U should be able to make up its own transfer rules

I want Scottish independance to win then we should cut them off at the knees and reely show them what indipendance is all about zero English support exclusion from europe untill they qualifie for entry

And if they harp on about oil, I sugest we invade :D

ATB

Mark

drysuitdiver
03-09-2014, 08:08 AM
I think its mind numbingly pathetic that in an age where we should be thinking on a global scale there are people who are still so closed that they think its better to split things up into infantisamaly small regions of decision making and power.

We are a small island and pepole want to break that up into still smaller pieces????

How the hell are we ever going to progress with such stone age thinking.

Asking for the yes no vote is just banging on the door of localised pride. Its like asking Man U suporters if Man U should be able to make up its own transfer rules

I want Scottish independance to win then we should cut them off at the knees and reely show them what indipendance is all about zero English support exclusion from europe untill they qualifie for entry

And if they harp on about oil, I sugest we invade :D

ATB

Mark


we can't use infantry as the cannon fodder, sorry front line has nearly always been from North of the Border. cos they are nutters. maybe we can get Mars confectionery group to stop sending the mars bar north.

maybe salmond will put an embargo on Irn Bru ( no bad thing TBF)

go on chasey do us a graph on what we gain and lose if it goes to yes.

maybe there will be a mass exodus and kings cross and euston concourses will become a transit camp like sangatte.

cotochris
03-09-2014, 09:10 AM
I personally think that Scotland is unprepared for the referendum. There are far too many unknowns and matters that need answering before referendum, not after. We know the usual suspects: currency, borders, economy etch. Now I just can't see Scotland being able be competative alone. There is no way countries such as Spain or France want Scotland become independent because of Basque, Catalunya, Corsica etch henceforth they would be relunctant to let the Scots back in the EU. Blimmey just a quick thought this is what could happen:



Leave EU but not able to renter
EU farm subsidies lost - bye bye highland farmers
Higher costs to Scotch whiskey, Salmon and fishing.
Border with England would be a real pain for divers wanting to dive 'up north'



Being English the last thing I want is for Scotland to be independent then UK having to bail them out, like RBS. I have no ill feelings for the Scots and I really wish the best for them and my opinion is simply to vote no - be careful what you wish for.

Chrisch
03-09-2014, 09:42 AM
I had a look at the two websites this morning out of curiosity - the yes scotland and better together ones. The latter is clearly better funded but neither of them have any facts at all. I have come to the decision there are no facts. Both sides of the argument are talking bollocks and it is driven by emotive claptrap based on which idiot newspaper you are stupid enough to read. (I read The Scotsman this morning)

I do not believe any of the main commentators (in the media) are being remotely honest. Their collective agendas are totally based around what will suit their particular vested interest most. The actual fate of the Scottish people is of no consequence to any of them.

I voted "yes" as the third - my preferred - option was not available. I am increasingly of the mind it will not matter one iota and make zero difference to anyone or anything. At least it takes people's mind off how much they are being fucked over by the finance industry. Maybe that is the whole point?

braun
03-09-2014, 10:07 AM
Both sides of the argument are talking bollocks

Their collective agendas are totally based around what will suit their particular vested interest most. The actual fate of the Scottish people is of no consequence to any of them.


What?? Politicians talking bollox? Lying? Who would have thought it? :rofl:

Garf
03-09-2014, 11:16 AM
I think its mind numbingly pathetic that in an age where we should be thinking on a global scale there are people who are still so closed that they think its better to split things up into infantisamaly small regions of decision making and power.

We are a small island and pepole want to break that up into still smaller pieces????

How the hell are we ever going to progress with such stone age thinking.

Asking for the yes no vote is just banging on the door of localised pride. Its like asking Man U suporters if Man U should be able to make up its own transfer rules

I want Scottish independance to win then we should cut them off at the knees and reely show them what indipendance is all about zero English support exclusion from europe untill they qualifie for entry

And if they harp on about oil, I sugest we invade :D

ATB

Mark

I agree with this completely. The human race should be learning how to cone together as a species, not separate into smaller and smaller zones. It's a step back for everyone, especially Scotland.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Hickdive
03-09-2014, 11:25 AM
The democratic model the Yes vote favours is, "if at first you don't get a government you like, divide off into a smaller population and try again, repeat until you get what you want or anarchy prevails."

Chrisch
03-09-2014, 11:37 AM
I agree with this completely. The human race should be learning how to cone together as a species, not separate into smaller and smaller zones. It's a step back for everyone, especially Scotland.


Unfortunately as things get shittier people get more tribal. I agree with you at the broadest level - if we act together we can solve the big problems we face; climate change, deforestation, the failure of modern antibiotics, over population and other such global issues. These are more important that whose head is on a postage stamp. Sadly, all the experience of globalisation here in the west is crap pay, Chinese tat and cheap labour moving round the world. Selling the principle of solidarity in the face of adversity is a tough one. Where tried in the past it has by and large failed. Furthermore the global rich, the 1%, the "ruling class" - whatever you want to call them - do not want solidarity. Machiavelli figured that out a while back.

Iain Smith
03-09-2014, 11:38 AM
The democratic model the Yes vote favours is, "if at first you don't get a government you like, divide off into a smaller population and try again, repeat until you get what you want or anarchy prevails."

...but once you get what you want, no-one else is permitted a further subdivision (eg Orkney & Shetland) lest they want something different.

Hickdive
03-09-2014, 11:57 AM
...but once you get what you want, no-one else is permitted a further subdivision (eg Orkney & Shetland) lest they want something different.

I'm holding out for my own independent state. I'm calling it Freedonia.

drysuitdiver
03-09-2014, 12:04 PM
I'm holding out for my own independent state. I'm calling it Freedonia.

well snowdonia isn't always covered in snow so be careful what you wish for !

CantNavigate
03-09-2014, 01:07 PM
I agree with this completely. The human race should be learning how to cone together as a species, not separate into smaller and smaller zones. It's a step back for everyone, especially Scotland.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Yes a global policy is useful for some things, however not devolving power when there is the opportunity to do so will create ghettos who effectively have no say in their own rule. IIRC when the European union was set up, one of the principles was to make sure that power and law making was always devolved when it was not relevant to European policy.

I honestly cant see Scotland not becoming a full EU member in its own right if there is a yes vote (however long it takes). At that point its not Scottish and British, just European.

Chrisch
03-09-2014, 02:00 PM
..... IIRC when the European union was set up, one of the principles was to make sure that power and law making was always devolved when it was not relevant to European policy.....

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/glossary/subsidiarity_en.htm

Chrisch
03-09-2014, 02:03 PM
.....
I honestly cant see Scotland not becoming a full EU member in its own right if there is a yes vote (however long it takes). At that point its not Scottish and British, just European.

I think that is what a lot of people are scared of. Especially if they adopt the Euro. Imagine a Euro currency member state on our land border..... One that is doing better than we are as well.....

Markymark75
03-09-2014, 02:36 PM
If the Scots vote "no", can the rest of the UK then hold a vote to get rid of it anyway?...

gaius
03-09-2014, 02:44 PM
I think that is what a lot of people are scared of. Especially if they adopt the Euro. Imagine a Euro currency member state on our land border..... One that is doing better than we are as well.....

New states joining the EU have to adopt the Euro - which Salmond has ruled out.

What a lot of Scots ought to be aware of is they won't be in the UK, won't be in the EU, and will in all likelihood require work permits and visas and be liable for deportation if they overstay their welcome.

gaius
03-09-2014, 02:44 PM
I think that is what a lot of people are scared of. Especially if they adopt the Euro. Imagine a Euro currency member state on our land border..... One that is doing better than we are as well.....

New states joining the EU have to adopt the Euro - which Salmond has ruled out.

What a lot of Scots ought to be aware of is they won't be in the UK, won't be in the EU, and will in all likelihood require work permits and visas and be liable for deportation if they overstay their welcome.

notdeadyet
03-09-2014, 03:02 PM
Does that mean you'll be going home to freedom? ;)

I'm moving back regardless of the vote.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

IanB
03-09-2014, 03:05 PM
Beat me to it WBC. l wonder, if the sweaties vote yes, will all the Jocks living in civilization down here fook off back 'home'?We're having a whip around to hire a van to take one of the sweaties in the office back, could pick others on the way :D

drysuitdiver
03-09-2014, 03:10 PM
We're having a whip around to hire a van to take one of the sweaties in the office back, could pick others on the way :D

where do u send the money for making it a coach ? can you charter a train ?

wait for the racist against jocks card to come out ;)

Mikael
03-09-2014, 03:12 PM
New states joining the EU have to adopt the Euro - which Salmond has ruled out.

What a lot of Scots ought to be aware of is they won't be in the UK, won't be in the EU, and will in all likelihood require work permits and visas and be liable for deportation if they overstay their welcome.

How much did you pay for your PADI Diving Political Commentator's speciality course?

Mikael
03-09-2014, 03:16 PM
where do u send the money for making it a coach ? can you charter a train ?

wait for the racist against jocks card to come out ;)

We've already got the Flying Scotsman.
:)

No not racists, bigoted.

drysuitdiver
03-09-2014, 03:17 PM
We've already got the Flying Scotsman.
:)

No not racists, bigoted.


bigoted. feck, thats rich from a jock


I am not bigoted or racist. I hate everybody the same

Barrygoss
03-09-2014, 03:23 PM
We've already got the Flying Scotsman.
:)

No not racists, bigoted.

There you go again, trying to take stuff that isn't yours ;)
1472, was built in England, for the English to go visit their Northern estates :P

B

Mikael
03-09-2014, 04:01 PM
There you go again, trying to take stuff that isn't yours ;)
1472, was built in England, for the English to go visit their Northern estates :P

B

Well who can blame us if you label as you did, just too tempting....
:devil:

Gareth J
03-09-2014, 04:34 PM
What amazes me is the nationalists have been campaigning for this for decades and they haven't got any answers to any of the questions.

I was working up in Prestwick earlier in the year and watched one of the 'political discussions'. The MP for one of the ship yard areas was pleading for a No vote on the grounds that the rest of the UK would pull all the Military contracts out of the ship yard, he was then immediately accused by the nationalist of saying that the shipyards weren't as good as those in the rest of the UK / Europe / World. Every time he tried to explain it would be political suicide for London to place military contracts in an independent Scotland, the nationalist shouted him down and accused him of undermining the shipyards. It was absolutely pathetic. He was just trying to point that the British Government has NEVER EVER ordered Navy ships from a foreign government, and an independent Scotland would be a foreign government.

I think Salmond messed up on the strategy, he should have allowed the rest of the UK to vote as well, then he may well have won. At the beginning the rest of the Union was for keeping Scotland in the Union, Salmond has whipped up so much hate and bile that the rest of the Union are starting to say let Scotland go their own way.
He would have had all the vote from Portsmouth, they get the ship building contracts back. All those central government offices in Scotland would need to move south, the NHS admin, Tax office etc, that's a lot of jobs moving into the North East or North West. Banking admin moving south and Insurance, all a big boost to the East of England.

As others have said, I think they will have a fight to get back into Europe, there are too many other European governments worried about their own regions that want to break away. They won't want to set any kind of precedent and certainly won't want to make it easy. In many cases, the harder the British government approves of Scotland joining Europe, the more certain governments will resist. Not to mention those governments, worried that another member will further dilute their European grants.

Personally I think they are mad to break away from the rest of the Union, but as long as I don't have to pay to bail them out in 10 / 20 years, then if they want to go then so be it. I'm just worried that they will want to come back if it all goes tits up, we don't have the financial resource that Germany had when they unified, and Germany is still paying out trying to unify east and west.

JPTaylor
03-09-2014, 04:59 PM
I hope the Scots vote for independence, I would have if England had been given a say. It'll shake things up, the union has become a bit moribund, at least it'll but an end to the "we're a great power" lie. Would be fun to see Cameroon deal with the fallout.....

CantNavigate
03-09-2014, 05:07 PM
I think that is what a lot of people are scared of. Especially if they adopt the Euro. Imagine a Euro currency member state on our land border..... One that is doing better than we are as well.....

Kind of like the Irish Republic? Although they arent doing quite as well as they once were.

Stevie H
03-09-2014, 05:39 PM
My question is this:

If Scotland votes no, will Alex Salmond listen to "his" people, do us all a favour and shut up n fcukin retire?

After all, the country will have rejected everything he has ever stood for.....

Stevie H
03-09-2014, 05:44 PM
And no NATO either.....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/in-full-general-sir-richard-shirreff-s-letter-1-3526265

ziggi
03-09-2014, 05:56 PM
And no NATO either.....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/in-full-general-sir-richard-shirreff-s-letter-1-3526265

That's the problem, for every "this will or will not happen" someone is quoted as saying the opposite and it always seem to be former this and ex that, why can't the folk in charge today give definitive answers

Mikael
03-09-2014, 06:57 PM
That's the problem, for every "this will or will not happen" someone is quoted as saying the opposite and it always seem to be former this and ex that, why can't the folk in charge today give definitive answers

I remember someone saying that they felt the issue was not that the electorate were provided with insufficient information rather that they were getting an overload of information from both sides, spouting opinion here and every where. What people really want if it were possible would be information from impartial sources that had the power to arbitrate the process. The respective establishments of Westminster and the EU appear far from neutral in this debate so all voters are left trying to piece together the picture by reading between the lines.

JPTaylor
03-09-2014, 07:43 PM
My question is this:

If Scotland votes no, will Alex Salmond listen to "his" people, do us all a favour and shut up n fcukin retire?

After all, the country will have rejected everything he has ever stood for.....

No. He'll push for devo-max which is what he really wants. Independance is just a scam to get powers of independence with the English comfort blank & Cameron will be stupid enough to give it to him!

Mikael
03-09-2014, 08:16 PM
No. He'll push for devo-max which is what he really wants. Independance is just a scam to get powers of independence with the English comfort blank & Cameron will be stupid enough to give it to him!

Why so quick to forget about Northern Ireland and Wales?

JPTaylor
03-09-2014, 08:22 PM
Why so quick to forget about Northern Ireland and Wales?

There just more Klingons!

R0ckcrew
03-09-2014, 08:24 PM
My question is this:

If Scotland votes no, will Alex Salmond listen to "his" people, do us all a favour and shut up n fcukin retire?

After all, the country will have rejected everything he has ever stood for.....

Probably not... If the SNP keep it in their manifesto and keep getting re-elected because the other parties are pish. Its democracy.

Gareth Jones
04-09-2014, 12:03 AM
No. He'll push for devo-max which is what he really wants. Independence is just a scam to get powers of independence with the English comfort blank & Cameron will be stupid enough to give it to him!

That's what I've thought all along, the Big Ned really wants a glorious 49.9%/50.1% defeat. He will then claim a moral victory against the southern bullies for his oppressed minority and change his tune to the DevoMax option knowing that everything will be funded or backed by Westminster and the Central Bank.

Chrisch
04-09-2014, 07:35 AM
That's the problem, for every "this will or will not happen" someone is quoted as saying the opposite and it always seem to be former this and ex that, why can't the folk in charge today give definitive answers

Because there are no definitive answers. If there were the decision would be simple. However, having established the desire to become independent Scotland must then negotiate that independence. You cannot (despite the many folk as you say that try to) second guess what will happen. There is no "official" EU position nor will there be until the EU is formally approached. There is not official Sterling position nor will there be until the UK government is formally approached. Repeat for every point of contention.

You cannot negotiate an hypothesis.

Everything in the media is bullshit. Everything. Everything is driven by prejudice not fact. It's not really surprising so many Scots are "undecided".

ziggi
04-09-2014, 08:09 AM
agreed,its almost pointless using these articles to back up your point of view one way or another

Hickdive
04-09-2014, 08:24 AM
There is an official EU position and it has been articulated time and again.

The problem is that that the Yes campaign would have us believe that unless and until the EU specifically names Scotland then their official position does not apply to Scotland.

You might as well argue that speed limit signs on roads don't apply to you because you're not named on them.

Chrisch
04-09-2014, 09:38 AM
There is an official EU position and it has been articulated time and again.

The problem is that that the Yes campaign would have us believe that unless and until the EU specifically names Scotland then their official position does not apply to Scotland.

You might as well argue that speed limit signs on roads don't apply to you because you're not named on them.

Please provide a link to the official position of the EU on member states that sub divide - I would like to read it very much. I have searched for it and cannot find it.

Hickdive
04-09-2014, 09:46 AM
Please provide a link to the official position of the EU on member states that sub divide - I would like to read it very much. I have searched for it and cannot find it.

Here's just one, there are many occasions in which the official position has been made plain by both the EU Commission and the EU Council but this one also cites the European Journal in which it was published;

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_E uropean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

Chrisch
04-09-2014, 01:53 PM
Here's just one, there are many occasions in which the official position has been made plain by both the EU Commission and the EU Council but this one also cites the European Journal in which it was published;

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_E uropean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

Thank you. Appreciate your time to dig this out.

Hickdive
04-09-2014, 03:06 PM
It wasn't much effort, I've had to quote it so often that I have it saved.

R0ckcrew
04-09-2014, 03:29 PM
If Independence becomes a reality, as in life there would be compromises...The EU wouldnt want to lose access to Scottish fishing grounds, Nato wouldnt want the North Atlantic unguarded, the USA wouldnt want the plug pulled on their NSA hubs. Politics is Politics

In these enlightened times there would be many meetings in non smoked filled rooms.

Allan Carr
04-09-2014, 03:37 PM
Alex Salmond's idea of negotiation is everyone else doing what he tells them to do.

The prospect of being able to set up a fully independent state in 18 months for a total expenditure of 200M is laughable. One expert was saying that setting up the taxation system alone would take longer and cost more than that.

The Czech Republic and Slovakia still haven't finished negotiating their split and that occurred in 1993!

Chrisch
04-09-2014, 03:53 PM
Alex Salmond's idea of negotiation is everyone else doing what he tells them to do.

The prospect of being able to set up a fully independent state in 18 months for a total expenditure of 200M is laughable. One expert was saying that setting up the taxation system alone would take longer and cost more than that.

The Czech Republic and Slovakia still haven't finished negotiating their split and that occurred in 1993!

Yup. I would wager that it would take a lot longer than the SNP have got in power before the deal is inked.

Mikael
04-09-2014, 04:19 PM
Yup. I would wager that it would take a lot longer than the SNP have got in power before the deal is inked.

Instinctively I suspect this will indeed be the case. That said if we are going to go ahead with independence it is important to commit to completing the necessary negotiations in a timely manner. If the targets set are much longer then in reality is required then the willpower to finalise agreements way drain away and whole thing could drag out inexorably to detriment of all parties. Within reason I would prefer to err on the side of a ambitious target rather then a pessimistic one.

MikeF
04-09-2014, 05:51 PM
I suspect it won't beacause I suspect thetre will be a no vote. I wish the seperatists would talking as though it's a foregone conclusion there will be a yes vote

Mikael
04-09-2014, 06:22 PM
I suspect it won't beacause I suspect thetre will be a no vote. I wish the seperatists would talking as though it's a foregone conclusion there will be a yes vote

Did you read any further then my first sentence on the previous post?

Iain Smith
04-09-2014, 07:33 PM
If Independence becomes a reality, as in life there would be compromises...The EU wouldnt want to lose access to Scottish fishing grounds

In the absence of the Royal Navy, who's going to stop them doing what they want? Her Majesty's Rowing Boat Alex Salmond?

http://tinyurl.com/qgtt7uy


Nato wouldnt want the North Atlantic unguarded

They'll just guard it anyway. If the submarine doesn't surface, no-one will ever know it was there...


the USA wouldnt want the plug pulled on their NSA hubs.

There are NSA hubs in Scotland?

Chrisch
05-09-2014, 07:51 AM
If Independence becomes a reality, as in life there would be compromises...The EU wouldnt want to lose access to Scottish fishing grounds
In the absence of the Royal Navy, who's going to stop them doing what they want? Her Majesty's Rowing Boat Alex Salmond?
..

The navy don't police fishing - that is job of Fisheries Protection. No reason Scotland cannot afford a couple of boats and planes to do that job.

Rob Dobson
05-09-2014, 07:59 AM
There are NSA hubs in Scotland?

Yorkshire is the main one. I'm not aware of anything in Scotland, but the NSA don't tell me what they're up to anymore. I don't even get a birthday card from them these days :)

Hickdive
05-09-2014, 08:24 AM
Yorkshire is the main one. I'm not aware of anything in Scotland, but the NSA don't tell me what they're up to anymore. I don't even get a birthday card from them these days :)

Typical. GCHQ is the only part of government that listens.

R0ckcrew
05-09-2014, 08:54 AM
Typical. GCHQ is the only part of government that listens.

Yes.. There are NSA Hubs in Scotland .... in Glasgow, but the largest is Yorkshire.

Rob Dobson
05-09-2014, 09:45 AM
Yes.. There are NSA Hubs in Scotland .... in Glasgow, but the largest is Yorkshire.

I always think of the NSA listening network as being the old Echelon network which was Canada, Yorkshire, Hawaii, New Zealand and a couple of other countries (somewhere in South America...?), which I can't remember now off the top of my head. I'm sure things have changed a lot in last 10 years and I've not exactly been keeping up on developments; is Prism a bolt-on to Echelon or did it replace it...?

R0ckcrew
05-09-2014, 09:55 AM
I always think of the NSA listening network as being the old Echelon network which was Canada, Yorkshire, Hawaii, New Zealand and a couple of other countries (somewhere in South America...?), which I can't remember now off the top of my head. I'm sure things have changed a lot in last 10 years and I've not exactly been keeping up on developments; is Prism a bolt-on to Echelon or did it replace it...?

Rob,
I believe Prism included facets of Echelon, but the technology available to them is forging ahead in leaps and bounds... Well it would do when money is no object .

Gareth Jones
05-09-2014, 11:46 AM
Anyone who mentioned the NSA is now being watched ..... oops!

Hickdive
05-09-2014, 12:06 PM
Anyone who mentioned the NSA is now being watched ..... oops!

Only if you use the key words like semtex, airport, president. Hang on there's somebody at

drysuitdiver
05-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Only if you use the key words like semtex, airport, president. Hang on there's somebody at

don't forget celtic and newport.

oh and @chrisch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishery_Protection_Squadron

and did you read David Lammy is throwing his hat in the ring for London Mayor

Rob Dobson
05-09-2014, 12:29 PM
Anyone who mentioned the NSA is now being watched ..... oops!

My Amazon order history alone pretty much guarantees that there's an Echelon file on me.

Chrisch
05-09-2014, 02:15 PM
Anyone who mentioned the NSA is now being watched ..... oops!

The Newbury Schoolgirls Association?

Gareth Jones
05-09-2014, 02:22 PM
The Naughty Schoolgirls Association?

Corrected that for you :)

Pea Cake
07-09-2014, 08:53 PM
Latest polls are "yes"!!!!!!

Iain Smith
07-09-2014, 09:29 PM
Latest polls are "yes"!!!!!!

It's possible that they have been "manipulated" (I think "rigged" implies deliberate dishonesty). I have seen it suggested that elements within the Yes campaign have made concerted efforts to get their supporters registered with YouGov in order to skew that poll. I have no idea whether that is true or not. The YouGov polls suggest an absolute reduction of 10% in the No vote over the last month, with a corresponding upswing in Yes vote.

I think it is highly unlikely that one-in-five declared "No" voters have, after two years of campaigning, suddenly changed their minds or become undecided (with an equivalent move of "undecided" to Yes.

It's of note that Panelbase (last poll 04 Sept) shows no such pattern. Latest figures are 48% No vs. 44% Yes - both being up 2% on the previous poll.

Darling certainly performed poorly in the last debate. Salmond was allowed to score easy debating points without giving any explanation of the implications of his position or actually saying anything which hadn't been said before. But is that really enough to generate the sort of swing being reported by YouGov? Ah hae ma doots!

(Poll data taken from: http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-1#line)

Still...if there has been an attempt to rig the polls and if it gives the No campaign a kick in the arse and gets every No voter to turn out on the day, then it may prove to be blessing in disguise.

I suspect that, a year or two down the line, there is a PhD thesis on "Cyberwarfare during the Scottish Referendum Campaign" waiting for someone.

Iain

Hickdive
07-09-2014, 09:40 PM
YouGov polls are a self-selecting sample.

At this stage of the debate anyone who is still "undecided" would have difficulty ordering in a McDonalds.

What will be will be but tonight I'm in Devon thinking I could live here if the fascists win and I can afford it.

Paulo
07-09-2014, 09:55 PM
Darling certainly performed poorly in the last debate.

Iain

Almost as if Labour doesnt want the Scots :P:

Mikael
07-09-2014, 11:09 PM
A poll is just a poll and while a closing of the gap is big news it is clear that nothing is decided yet. Arguably the far more important news is the main parties getting together to put a new increased devo offer on the table, right at the last minute;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431

A sign of desperation?
The sentiments "too little, too late" have been echoed by many. Personally the trustworthiness of such an offer at this stage seems dubious to me. If this was a good idea is should have been presented months ago, pulling it together less than a fortnight before the actual vote is shocking, especially give that many have already cast their postal vote. Devo max was kept off the ballot in the first place in a gamble that presented with a everything or nothing Scotland would vote No, have to wonder how much David Cameron is regretting that now.

Cheeky Monkey
07-09-2014, 11:38 PM
A poll is just a poll and while a closing of the gap is big news it is clear that nothing is decided yet. Arguably the far more important news is the main parties getting together to put a new increased devo offer on the table, right at the last minute;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431

A sign of desperation?
The sentiments "too little, too late" have been echoed by many. Personally the trustworthiness of such an offer at this stage seems dubious to me. If this was a good idea is should have been presented months ago, pulling it together less than a fortnight before the actual vote is shocking, especially give that many have already cast their postal vote. Devo max was kept off the ballot in the first place in a gamble that presented with a everything or nothing Scotland would vote No, have to wonder how much David Cameron is regretting that now.

The excuse for doing this in the purdah period is amazing - "A spokesman for the UK government told the BBC that the offer would come from the pro-Union parties, not the government itself." (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431)

Iain Smith
08-09-2014, 06:57 AM
The sentiments "too little, too late" have been echoed by many. Personally the trustworthiness of such an offer at this stage seems dubious to me. If this was a good idea is should have been presented months ago, pulling it together less than a fortnight before the actual vote is shocking, especially give that many have already cast their postal vote.

Completely agree.

I.

AndrewRawlingson
08-09-2014, 07:15 AM
A sign of desperation?

That's how it looks to me. Sadly, I think this strategy will backfire on the Unionists.

Pea Cake
08-09-2014, 07:47 AM
I hear if it is a "yes" then the first thing the new independent country will do is change the clocks.

On Friday mornings the clocks will go forward by 8 hours and Sunday night back by 8 hours. There is good sense in this.
But the notion of changing the plugs to a new 5 pin is ridiculous!:think:

Rob Dobson
08-09-2014, 07:59 AM
That's how it looks to me. Sadly, I think this strategy will backfire on the Unionists.

Yup. From the outset the pro-unionist campaign has been at best incompetent and at worst pro-separatist by design.

By allowing the tubby brat to dictate the question, the timing, the voting and critically allowing the vote before an understanding of what separation actually means, they have handed every conceivable advantage to the separatists.

Either Cameron didn't take them seriously enough and just thought 'let the silly man have little vote and then he'll go away' or there is something else going on here but I fail to see what.

I hope Scotland stays but I can see it going the other way which I think would be a bad thing for everyone.

cotochris
08-09-2014, 08:43 AM
Yesterday I had another thought: Nationalities - who is a Scot?

If Scotland becomes independent there has to be a decision on who is Scottish? By birth certificate being born in Scotland? Your parents or grandparents? That may not be too hard, the interesting question is: Will the Scottish loose the former UK nationality? In principle they should.

CraigofScotland
08-09-2014, 08:49 AM
What will be will be but tonight I'm in Devon thinking I could live here if the fascists win and I can afford it.

Dont say that, who's going to fill my tanks at 8pm on a Friday night . . .

VOTE NO SAVE THE DIVE SHOPS!

Paulo
08-09-2014, 08:59 AM
Yesterday I had another thought: Nationalities - who is a Scot?

If Scotland becomes independent there has to be a decision on who is Scottish? By birth certificate being born in Scotland? Your parents or grandparents? That may not be too hard, the interesting question is: Will the Scottish loose the former UK nationality? In principle they should.

Anyone born in Ireland up to some date that I cant remember were able to claim UK passports of they wanted. Not too many took that up after we joined the EU but I would say that many did before thst so they could work in the UK

AndrewRawlingson
08-09-2014, 09:46 AM
Yesterday I had another thought: Nationalities - who is a Scot?

If Scotland becomes independent there has to be a decision on who is Scottish? By birth certificate being born in Scotland? Your parents or grandparents? That may not be too hard, the interesting question is: Will the Scottish loose the former UK nationality? In principle they should.

As more questions like these arise, I can't help thinking that the issue of nationality is quite arbitrary, especially in an age of mass migration and the EU. British versus Scottish, may as well be Apple versus Microsoft. That's not to say that governance isn't very important!

Chrisch
08-09-2014, 09:58 AM
As more questions like these arise, I can't help thinking that the issue of nationality is quite arbitrary, especially in an age of mass migration and the EU. British versus Scottish, may as well be Apple versus Microsoft. That's not to say that governance isn't very important!

Nationality is totally arbitrary. It is also a great thing if you want to start a war or just an argument. Should be abolished IMHO.

Soup Dragon
08-09-2014, 01:14 PM
We're doomed we're all dooooomed.

Mikael
08-09-2014, 03:30 PM
Forget the polls, the bookies are probably as good a guide as any.
http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/g/1479658/Scottish-Independence-Markets.html

Yesterday the odds there 7/4, now its 2/1

Shame I didn't put a bet on when a few months back.

Barrygoss
08-09-2014, 03:51 PM
Forget the polls, the bookies are probably as good a guide as any.
http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/g/1479658/Scottish-Independence-Markets.html

Yesterday the odds there 7/4, now its 2/1

Shame I didn't put a bet on when a few months back.

So the odds have become less likely for a yes vote.
7/4 - for every 4 English pounds you bet, you get 7 pounds back
2/1 - 1 gets you 2. A bookmaker shortens the odds when he thinks it's more likely, probably when the No vote is 4/11.

B

Mikael
08-09-2014, 04:12 PM
So the odds have become less likely for a yes vote.
7/4 - for every 4 English pounds you bet, you get 7 pounds back
2/1 - 1 gets you 2. A bookmaker shortens the odds when he thinks it's more likely, probably when the No vote is 4/11.

B


I can't remember exactly but think a few months back the odds on Yes where about 3/1

Pea Cake
08-09-2014, 06:09 PM
I can't remember exactly but think a few months back the odds on Yes where about 3/1

It's getting exciting now.........not sure "exciting" is the correct adjective to use.

Baron015
08-09-2014, 07:51 PM
Nationality is totally arbitrary. It is also a great thing if you want to start a war or just an argument. Should be abolished IMHO.

Good point. How long after independence until we are at war with Scotland ?

gaius
08-09-2014, 08:48 PM
We have always been at war with Scotland.

Iain Smith
08-09-2014, 09:34 PM
We have always been at war with Scotland.

Hardly surprising - back when I was a TA highland infanteer, it was well understood that, if we Jocks couldn't find anyone else to fight, we'd fight amongst ourselves!

Chrisch
09-09-2014, 07:38 AM
It's getting exciting now.........not sure "exciting" is the correct adjective to use.

Yeah - the newspapers' lies are getting more and more outlandish. The bullshit is actually being put forward as fact and the call is out for the German aristocracy to intervene. Perhaps "fantastical" is the correct adjective?

Nitnab Nhoj
09-09-2014, 07:39 AM
The Scots will end up coming over here, stealing our jobs...

Ron MacRae
09-09-2014, 12:31 PM
The Scots will end up coming over here, stealing our jobs...
We did that years ago. :)

Chrisch
09-09-2014, 01:01 PM
We did that years ago. :)

Ha. You will be back off home when UKIP get in :D

sorry rUKIP I guess :D

Baron015
09-09-2014, 02:21 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/09/yzenaru8.jpg

R0ckcrew
09-09-2014, 10:40 PM
After watching Gordon Brown the other night and the other parties running a coach and horses through purdah ...just for clarity's sake here, the former Prime Minister of the UK has announced a package of measures affecting the whole of the UK, which will have to be implemented by a government which he not a member of or even a backbencher in the ruling parties, with the backing of the leaders of the three main parties, without any consultation with Parliament, or even their own cabinets or MPs and it's Scotland that's having a constitutional crisis?

But to get down to serious business - why is my Inspiration eating batteries since AP changed the display and button !

dunk67
09-09-2014, 11:19 PM
And now the 3 horsemen of the Apocalypse (well 2 horsemen and a teaboy) have been unleashed and are heading up to take control of matters in their northern lands...

Hickdive
09-09-2014, 11:26 PM
And now the 3 horsemen of the Apocalypse (well 2 horsemen and a teaboy) have been unleashed and are heading up to take control of matters in their northern lands...

And we're continually told "it isn't about Salmond" but yet it is apparently about the characters of the unionist party leaders?

I might not particularly like any of them in the same way as I dislike Salmond but I'm not voting against Salmond I'm voting against independence.

Unfortunately - many Yes voters are doing so because they dislike Cameron. A more short-term and ignorant reason for voting Yes is hard to imagine.

Hickdive
09-09-2014, 11:33 PM
All three unionist parties have differing proposals for additional devolved powers.

Brown was setting out Labour's (or more accurately, his) stall on the matter not committing the Westminster government to anything.

No doubt Cameron and Clegg will have different ideas and will set them out, as will Milliband, in the coming days.

Since these are party-political matters they are not bound by the normal purdah rules which cover government business in the run up to an election.

Mikael
09-09-2014, 11:45 PM
All three unionist parties have differing proposals for additional devolved powers.

Brown was setting out Labour's (or more accurately, his) stall on the matter not committing the Westminster government to anything.

No doubt Cameron and Clegg will have different ideas and will set them out, as will Milliband, in the coming days.

Since these are party-political matters they are not bound by the normal purdah rules which cover government business in the run up to an election.

Do you think that in the event of a No vote any of these 11th hour promises will materialise?

Also Steve what is your take on devolution in general? Are you for or against having a devolved a Scottish Parliament in the first place? Do you think their net track record has overall been a positive or negative one?

dunk67
10-09-2014, 12:01 AM
Do you think that in the event of a No vote any of these 11th hour promises will materialise?

In the event of a No vote the delivery of promises might be seen as uncertain, there would be little leverage from the Scottish electorate after the vote.

Hickdive
10-09-2014, 12:09 AM
Devolution is on balance a good thing.

However you have to remember that for half of its life the Scottish Parliament has been under a minority and then a majority SNP government who have a vested interest in ensuring devolution is unsuccessful.

The SNP are in the business of wrecking the devolution settlement in order to point at it and declare "see, it doesn't work, we need independence instead".

The SNP voted against establishing the Calman Commission and have steadfastly ignored the Scotland Act 2012. They are currently making no effort at all to prepare for the transfer of these powers in the event of a No vote . A gross dereliction of their duties as the Scottish Government.

The fact that a Labour initiative to expand devolved powers then passed, without difficulty, through a Con/Dem
government suggests strongly that the commitment to grant even more powers beyond those already on their way is not an empty promise.

Mikael
10-09-2014, 12:11 AM
In the event of a No vote the delivery of promises might be seen as uncertain, there would be little leverage from the Scottish electorate after the vote.

Even if they did deliver it is unfair in my opinion that such an offer is only for Scotland, what about Wales, England and Northern Ireland should they not be at least be given the opportunity to consider something similar if they so wished. These offers have nothing to do with what is constitutionally right for the UK, it is a last minute bribe as the establishment realises that the nothing or everything gambit hasn't worked.

Mikael
10-09-2014, 12:22 AM
...
SNP government who have a vested interest in ensuring devolution is unsuccessful.

The SNP are in the business of wrecking the devolution settlement in order to point at it and declare "see, it doesn't work, we need independence instead".

Cynical but true sadly.
Also one of the reasons I don't vote SNP.

braun
10-09-2014, 05:42 AM
http://s17.postimg.org/ywbia8mmn/10698616_915836325130225_3015017788449900011_n.jpg
Personally I just want them to vote yes now. Had enough of the whingeing and whining tbh. Plus the worry of all the 'concessions' that have been offered in the event of a no vote.

Rob Dobson
10-09-2014, 06:20 AM
http://s17.postimg.org/ywbia8mmn/10698616_915836325130225_3015017788449900011_n.jpg
Personally I just want them to vote yes now. Had enough of the whingeing and whining tbh. Plus the worry of all the 'concessions' that have been offered in the event of a no vote.

I completely understand this sentiment but I don't want to turn away from all the people that have energetically opposed this from the outset. Remember that even if it is a yes less than half the country would have voted for it. The problem is that now a yes is yes but no is no longer no. A no vote will do nothing heal the very deep and bitter divisions within society that this emotive campaign has stirred. I don't know what will.

The entire sorry chapter has been completely mismanaged from Westminster and if it's a yes then heads should roll, starting at the top (no bad thing).

Mikael
10-09-2014, 08:41 AM
I completely understand this sentiment but I don't want to turn away from all the people that have energetically opposed this from the outset. Remember that even if it is a yes less than half the country would have voted for it. The problem is that now a yes is yes but no is no longer no. A no vote will do nothing heal the very deep and bitter divisions within society that this emotive campaign has stirred. I don't know what will.

The entire sorry chapter has been completely mismanaged from Westminster and if it's a yes then heads should roll, starting at the top (no bad thing).

I think people are over playing this bitter division stuff. Yes there will be plenty of people disappointed which ever way the vote goes as it is necessarily a polarising subject but the idea that this will cause a long deep seated rift is too sensationalist. Life carries on, whether for or against the majority will wish to make the most of situation. While some of the deeply entrenched Yes and No voters will take it hard, actually being bitter won't change anything and many have already commented on how this referendum has massively increased participation in Scottish and UK politics so that is a positive for everyone.

It is also worth noting that looking to the polls going back a bit, that had devo max or some form of increased devo been on the cards that is likely what would have won (potentially a strong majority depending how the independence option compared). Not many were in the maintain the current situation bracket. When it was decided to make it a straight up Yes - No ballot the devolution group got split into the Yes and Nos.

If we get a No result and some devolution gets delivered then I think most will not be bitter though still plenty of disappointment from the Yes camp.

If we get a Yes result, the increased devo guys will in my opinion be fairly pragmatic about it. There will of course be disappoint from the No camp, some may even leave the country but I hope that any bitterness is limited.

gpj
10-09-2014, 08:58 AM
I had a look on the National Lottery's F/Book page earlier and there's people on there who are convinced that in the event of a "yes" vote Scotland will be an "independent country" the very next day, and therefore they will unable to buy tickets for the following draws.
Numptys

Ron MacRae
10-09-2014, 09:00 AM
I think people are over playing this bitter division stuff. Yes there will be plenty of people disappointed which ever way the vote goes as it is necessarily a polarising subject but the idea that this will cause a long deep seated rift is too sensationalist.

I don't agree.
If there is a yes vote then I for one will be very bitter about people permanently wrecking my country for short term political gain.
If it's a NO vote then it's not so bad because they can repeat the process in a few years and waste a few more millions.

The yes/no vote is only the start of a process of a large number of unknowns. If it's a yes vote I think it will get very bitter as people discover -

Who has to pay for what to fund the seperation and how much it actually costs both sides.

That Salmond can't deliver most of his promises. IMO he promised pie in the sky that makes no financial sense as he didn't expect to win.

All the jobs that move south because companies need to be in the EU to facilitate exports to EU countries and be closer to their main markets. (I was talking to a guy who runs a datacentre in Scotland last night. If there is a yes vote then the whole site has to move out of scotland as several countries, e.g. France & Germany, don't allow data storage outside the EU in some situations. I'm not sure exactly what the issue is but his company are already working on contingency plans for a move in the event of a yes vote.)

I see the aftermath of a yes vote as a very difficult period.

jturner
10-09-2014, 09:05 AM
I completely understand this sentiment but I don't want to turn away from all the people that have energetically opposed this from the outset. Remember that even if it is a yes less than half the country would have voted for it. The problem is that now a yes is yes but no is no longer no. A no vote will do nothing heal the very deep and bitter divisions within society that this emotive campaign has stirred. I don't know what will.

The entire sorry chapter has been completely mismanaged from Westminster and if it's a yes then heads should roll, starting at the top (no bad thing).

+1


I think people are over playing this bitter division stuff. Yes there will be plenty of people disappointed which ever way the vote goes as it is necessarily a polarising subject but the idea that this will cause a long deep seated rift is too sensationalist. Life carries on, whether for or against the majority will wish to make the most of situation. While some of the deeply entrenched Yes and No voters will take it hard, actually being bitter won't change anything and many have already commented on how this referendum has massively increased participation in Scottish and UK politics so that is a positive for everyone.

It is also worth noting that looking to the polls going back a bit, that had devo max or some form of increased devo been on the cards that is likely what would have won (potentially a strong majority depending how the independence option compared). Not many were in the maintain the current situation bracket. When it was decided to make it a straight up Yes - No ballot the devolution group got split into the Yes and Nos.

If we get a No result and some devolution gets delivered then I think most will not be bitter though still plenty of disappointment from the Yes camp.

If we get a Yes result, the increased devo guys will in my opinion be fairly pragmatic about it. There will of course be disappoint from the No camp, some may even leave the country but I hope that any bitterness is limited.

I think you might be suffering from an excess of rose-tinted viewing! If the yes campaign does win and Scotland does separate, there will be a big upheaval despite what Salmond and co have been saying. When that hits home, a lot of people will be realising that their dream of a utopian tomorrow is as hollow as the one they had before, only they are no longer insulated from the more violent shocks by being part of a larger and far "stronger" body. When that happens, that disappointment will turn to resentment.

FWIW and to pin my colours to the mast, I would suggest that independance as it is proposed now would be a mistake for several reasons but what I particularly dislike about this current process is the way it has been run so far. The reasons are as Rob said above for starters, and also because although we're all one union, we don't get a say when part of that union decides it wants to wander off by itself, the presumption and arrogance from the SNP that any post-independance negociations will be conducted as a deal between equals and the tactics that have been employed by the SNP generally throughout the campaign and leading to it. I am all for a more democratic, devolved and accountable system of governement... but that's not what Scotland will get, as the key powers in this game are not included in the debates. I fear Scotland will be overrun by them as the country will no longer be strong enough to resist - if you currently like all of the more "socialist"/progressive benefits of living there, you'd best enjoy them whilst you can as it seems highly likely they will be stripped away in the not-too-distant future.

But at the end of the day, thanks to the ridiculous setup of this vote, it's your Scotland's choice and there's alone.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 09:17 AM
.....
All the jobs that move south because companies need to be in the EU to facilitate exports to EU countries and be closer to their main markets. (I was talking to a guy who runs a datacentre in Scotland last night. If there is a yes vote then the whole site has to move out of scotland as several countries, e.g. France & Germany, don't allow data storage outside the EU in some situations. I'm not sure exactly what the issue is but his company are already working on contingency plans for a move in the event of a yes vote.)...

You are working on an assumption and basing your point of view on it. Firstly why will independent Scotland be outside the EU? From what I have read Scotland wishes to remain in the EU, whilst much of England does not. It is possible (if unlikely) that Scotland would boom as a "new" EU country whilst England would continue to decline into nothing as it makes the moronic decision to leave.

Much like the people worried that will not be able to buy a lottery ticket half an hour after the votes are counted there are many people making a lot of noise about what will happen when it is not know what will happen.

In respect of the EU is there any reason that Scotland cannot break it's formal agreement with the UK at the same time as renewing it's EU membership? Why should this not be a part of the negotiations?

The whole silly argument on both sides revolves around taking a point of speculation about what might happen, pretending it is fact and written in stone then using it to back up the position the person wants to take based on their emotive beliefs. It is, in effect, a religious argument not a scientific one. At the core of the issue is the simple basic question - do you want to govern yourselves? Yes/no.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 09:25 AM
.... I am all for a more democratic, devolved and accountable system of governement... but that's not what Scotland will get, as the key powers in this game are not included in the debates.....

I don't understand. By becoming an independent country Scotland will have a more accountable government. The Scottish people will vote for their own parliament and choose their own destiny. What do you mean by the "key powers" which are not included? Much is missing from the debates, but that is the nature of politics. But an independent country can do as it chooses. A member of a union cannot. Scotland must operate within the confines of any union of which it chooses to be a member. Currently the UK. It will still be required to operate within the parameters of the EU if it remains/rejoins that union. As I have pointed out often before the term "independent" is a misleading one and as such the referendum somewhat meaningless.

Hickdive
10-09-2014, 09:26 AM
Sweet jesus.

Not even the SNP claim Scotland can exit the UK and re-enter the EU is one seamless move any more.

Rob Dobson
10-09-2014, 09:29 AM
You are working on an assumption and basing your point of view on it. Firstly why will independent Scotland be outside the EU? From what I have read Scotland wishes to remain in the EU, whilst much of England does not. It is possible (if unlikely) that Scotland would boom as a "new" EU country whilst England would continue to decline into nothing as it makes the moronic decision to leave.

Much like the people worried that will not be able to buy a lottery ticket half an hour after the votes are counted there are many people making a lot of noise about what will happen when it is not know what will happen.

In respect of the EU is there any reason that Scotland cannot break it's formal agreement with the UK at the same time as renewing it's EU membership? Why should this not be a part of the negotiations?

The whole silly argument on both sides revolves around taking a point of speculation about what might happen, pretending it is fact and written in stone then using it to back up the position the person wants to take based on their emotive beliefs. It is, in effect, a religious argument not a scientific one. At the core of the issue is the simple basic question - do you want to govern yourselves? Yes/no.

The legal position on EU membership is that if Scotland breaks away then it is OUT of the EU. This is not something that can negotiated, it is beyond the powers of the UK. It is not something that needs to be looked at after the vote and worked out. It is clear: SCOTLAND WILL BE OUTSIDE OF THE EU IF IT LEAVES THE UK. Period. No discussion or debate the position could not be clearer. It's out.

If an application is immediately made and if there are no issues with Scotland joining (such as opposition and Spain has already said that it would oppose any application from an independent Scotland) then the process will take 6 years.

That means being outside of the UK, outside of NATO and outside of the EU. Pretty big decision to make based on there being basically no plan whatsoever beyond 'we will have to negotiate that'. THERE IS NO CREDIBLE PLAN FOR INDEPENDENCE!

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 10:02 AM
.... Pretty big decision to make based on there being basically no plan whatsoever beyond 'we will have to negotiate that'. THERE IS NO CREDIBLE PLAN FOR INDEPENDENCE!

But this has always been the case. Until the people vote that they want independence all talk of if is nonsense. First you must establish a mandate for a break from the UK. Then you can begin the process of negotiations with that body and other affected parties (like the EU).

A vote no or a failure to take the referendum at all leaves Scotland unchanged.

One does not actually need a credible plan - the decision is one of principle. Denying the principle due to the lack of a plan will undoubtedly leave the status quo in position for eternity as no one will ever agree the plan. This - from my viewpoint - is the sole argument of the no vote. It is deeply and profoundly lacking in any form of self confidence - in effect Scotland is far too shit to run itself as a country or even think about it. I am not Scottish and I don't live there but I like the place and don't think it's too shit to run itself if (I stress IF) it wanted to. Up to the people of Scotland really.

braun
10-09-2014, 10:04 AM
You are working on an assumption and basing your point of view on it. Firstly why will independent Scotland be outside the EU? From what I have read Scotland wishes to remain in the EU, whilst much of England does not. It is possible (if unlikely) that Scotland would boom as a "new" EU country whilst England would continue to decline into nothing as it makes the moronic decision to leave.

Much like the people worried that will not be able to buy a lottery ticket half an hour after the votes are counted there are many people making a lot of noise about what will happen when it is not know what will happen.

In respect of the EU is there any reason that Scotland cannot break it's formal agreement with the UK at the same time as renewing it's EU membership? Why should this not be a part of the negotiations?

The whole silly argument on both sides revolves around taking a point of speculation about what might happen, pretending it is fact and written in stone then using it to back up the position the person wants to take based on their emotive beliefs. It is, in effect, a religious argument not a scientific one. At the core of the issue is the simple basic question - do you want to govern yourselves? Yes/no.

The reason is simple as far as I have been informed. The EU has stated that Scotland will not be allowed to simply carry on as an EU member on the back of the UK membership. They will be required to apply and negotiate EU membership as a new independent country and it is not a given that membership will be granted.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 10:07 AM
The reason is simple as far as I have been informed. The EU has stated that Scotland will not be allowed to simply carry on as an EU member on the back of the UK membership. They will be required to apply and negotiate EU membership as a new independent country and it is not a given that membership will be granted.

No - I agree - I think this position is probably accurate from what I can see - but it is not a given that Scotland will complete it's independence negotiations with the UK never mind the EU. If Scotland votes 'no' the negotiations will never start.

Hickdive
10-09-2014, 10:14 AM
The reason is simple as far as I have been informed. The EU has stated that Scotland will not be allowed to simply carry on as an EU member on the back of the UK membership. They will be required to apply and negotiate EU membership as a new independent country and it is not a given that membership will be granted.

Precisely.

The EU made it's position clear in 2004 and has re-iterated this on numerous occasions.

A further problem is that whilst the UK enjoys numerous opt-outs and a rebate these will not be available to new applicant states. The EU has progressively tightened entry requirements to restrict the ability to opt-out and created the non-negotiable acquis. The Yes campaign continually tells us that Scotland will negotiate on things that are non-negotiable.

Not only that but there is now a five year moratorium on new entry to the EU.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 10:27 AM
Precisely.

The EU made it's position clear in 2004 and has re-iterated this on numerous occasions.

A further problem is that whilst the UK enjoys numerous opt-outs and a rebate these will not be available to new applicant states. The EU has progressively tightened entry requirements to restrict the ability to opt-out and created the non-negotiable acquis. The Yes campaign continually tells us that Scotland will negotiate on things that are non-negotiable.

Not only that but there is now a five year moratorium on new entry to the EU.

Without wishing to prolong or obfuscate the discussion (honest!) do you not feel there is merit in having an option? If Scotland votes yes it is a position of safety if the UK (other bits) were to vote to leave the EU. Surely this possibility must be of concern to the intelligent people in Scotland that understandably see the benefit of EU membership. Voting yes keeps that option. England (plus possibly Wales and NI) pull out Scotland "stays in" (subject to the renegotiations etc)

I would have thought the five year thing is flexible too as Scotland is not a "new" member but an existing one.

Hickdive
10-09-2014, 10:38 AM
Without wishing to prolong or obfuscate the discussion (honest!) do you not feel there is merit in having an option? If Scotland votes yes it is a position of safety if the UK (other bits) were to vote to leave the EU. Surely this possibility must be of concern to the intelligent people in Scotland that understandably see the benefit of EU membership. Voting yes keeps that option. England (plus possibly Wales and NI) pull out Scotland "stays in" (subject to the renegotiations etc)

I would have thought the five year thing is flexible too as Scotland is not a "new" member but an existing one.

Around 70% of Scottish exports are to the UK with the remaining 30% going to the EU, worldwide exports are negligible. Scotland needs to be on the same side of the fence (inside or outside) with regard to EU membership as the rest of the UK. The only way to guarantee that is to remain within the UK.

The position of the EU is clear; on leaving the EU Scotland becomes a third party state. In EU terms Scotland is not an existing member, the UK is.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_E uropean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

Baron015
10-09-2014, 10:49 AM
But this has always been the case. Until the people vote that they want independence all talk of if is nonsense. First you must establish a mandate for a break from the UK. Then you can begin the process of negotiations with that body and other affected parties (like the EU).

A vote no or a failure to take the referendum at all leaves Scotland unchanged.

One does not actually need a credible plan - the decision is one of principle. Denying the principle due to the lack of a plan will undoubtedly leave the status quo in position for eternity as no one will ever agree the plan. This - from my viewpoint - is the sole argument of the no vote. It is deeply and profoundly lacking in any form of self confidence - in effect Scotland is far too shit to run itself as a country or even think about it. I am not Scottish and I don't live there but I like the place and don't think it's too shit to run itself if (I stress IF) it wanted to. Up to the people of Scotland really.

It's absolutely ridiculous to ask people to vote for something, without knowing what that thing or it's consequences are. Wilful negligence on behalf of all concerned.

All a yes vote will ensure is the biggest case of "I told you so" the world has ever seen, as the yes voters come to understand they have made a catastrophic mistake and dragged down the rest of Scotland with them.

braun
10-09-2014, 11:34 AM
I would have thought the five year thing is flexible too as Scotland is not a "new" member but an existing one.
'Scotland' is not an existing member. The UK is an existing member.

Ron MacRae
10-09-2014, 11:41 AM
At the core of the issue is the simple basic question - do you want to govern yourselves? Yes/no.

It's not a simple question

I'm sure we'd all like to govern ourselves. I'd like a government for the village I live in, then I could go knock on the prime minister's door and tell him what a plonker he is when he fucks up.
However the cost of seting up police, NHS, social security, schools, etc etc for such a small state might be prohibative.
Not to mention the cost of having embassies all over the world in case I have problems while on holiday in another village.
The smaller you get the bigger %age of GDP you need to spend on these things as you loose economies of scale.
You also loose the ability to influence the rest of the world as your just a single village.

I'd like to be independant but to know if I'd want to go down that road I'd need to know will my new country be financially viable? Will it provide the services I want at a reasonable price? How much debt will it have? How many jobs will be created/destroyed by the change?

Ron MacRae
10-09-2014, 11:43 AM
It's absolutely ridiculous to ask people to vote for something, without knowing what that thing or it's consequences are. Wilful negligence on behalf of all concerned.

All a yes vote will ensure is the biggest case of "I told you so" the world has ever seen, as the yes voters come to understand they have made a catastrophic mistake and dragged down the rest of Scotland with them.

We also need to make sure they don't drag rUK down with them. You want independance then you pay for it.

dunk67
10-09-2014, 12:06 PM
Not even the SNP claim Scotland can exit the UK and re-enter the EU is one seamless move any more.

Salmonds plan is to negotiate entry for Scotland from within the EU during the negotiation period before independence. Would that work? Who knows?

Baron015
10-09-2014, 12:08 PM
Salmonds plan is to negotiate entry for Scotland from within the EU during the negotiation period before independence. Would that work? Who knows?

Yeah I think we all know.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 12:27 PM
Yeah I think we all know.

No. Everyone thinks they know. That's not the same thing.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 12:29 PM
It's not a simple question ....

Yes it is


I'm sure we'd all like to govern ourselves. ....

See. You've answered it.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 12:29 PM
It's absolutely ridiculous to ask people to vote for something, without knowing what that thing or it's consequences are. ....

The Tories do it every election. (And often win)

gpj
10-09-2014, 12:31 PM
The Tories do it every election. (And often win)

Not just the Tories - they all do it.

CraigofScotland
10-09-2014, 12:31 PM
Salmonds plan is to negotiate entry for Scotland from within the EU during the negotiation period before independence. Would that work? Who knows?


Maybe as well put it all on black . .

Dont fancy taking a gamble with my mortgage rate . . . its maybe selfish of me but how many folk have I seem on facebook moaning about being skint and are voting for an unknown future.

Baron015
10-09-2014, 12:32 PM
The Tories do it every election. (And often win)

They do nothing different to Labour or SNP. But you just can't stop with your anti-Tory posts even when it's completely irrelevant.

Baron015
10-09-2014, 12:35 PM
No. Everyone thinks they know. That's not the same thing.

You were already wrong about this before earlier in this thread remember ?


Please provide a link to the official position of the EU on member states that sub divide - I would like to read it very much. I have searched for it and cannot find it.


Here's just one, there are many occasions in which the official position has been made plain by both the EU Commission and the EU Council but this one also cites the European Journal in which it was published;

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_E uropean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf



---
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.

jturner
10-09-2014, 12:51 PM
I don't understand. By becoming an independent country Scotland will have a more accountable government. The Scottish people will vote for their own parliament and choose their own destiny. What do you mean by the "key powers" which are not included? Much is missing from the debates, but that is the nature of politics. But an independent country can do as it chooses. A member of a union cannot. Scotland must operate within the confines of any union of which it chooses to be a member. Currently the UK. It will still be required to operate within the parameters of the EU if it remains/rejoins that union. As I have pointed out often before the term "independent" is a misleading one and as such the referendum somewhat meaningless.

Dewey said "As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business, the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance". That's the unmentioned power I was commenting on. So, yes, in a way the Scottish government would become more accountable (assuming governements ever are truly accountable to the common man in the street) but at the same time, it would become significantly weaker and more likely to be unable to act. This is the same problem that has been encountered in the US - anyone can push counties around, states take more work and/or bigger players but only the biggest can boss around the federal goverment. If you re-read the rest of my post with that context in mind, you'll see where I'm coming from I hope. Like I said, I have no problem with increased democracy and accountability in the true sense of the words but what is being proposed is not that (it's an "attenuation of the shadow") and worse actually risks playing into the hands of those who will put private profit before anything else. So far, the response from those sectors seems to be mixed from what I can see, probably because there's no clarity as to what will happen and uncertainty is "bad". But if Scotland does become independant and leaves the EU (as it must), I would expect that many companies will clear out of there and those that remain will be after subsidies and tax breaks to "remain competitive". They have to be funded of course and someone is going to have to pay or the drain southward will continue... and money doesn't grow on trees.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 12:59 PM
They do nothing different to Labour or SNP. But you just can't stop with your anti-Tory posts even when it's completely irrelevant.

Actually the Tories do do stuff different to the others but if you are suggesting I have a particular dislike of the Eton mess you are correct. Uppermost in my mind was the last election in which Dave simply said I am not Gordon Brown so vote for me - and people did. I can, if you would like me to, find other examples of idiot politicians from other parties. If I am honest I know little about the SNP - they are thin on the ground here.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 01:00 PM
You were already wrong about this before earlier in this thread remember ?

I asked for more info and got it. You have a weird understanding of the English language.

Baron015
10-09-2014, 01:03 PM
I asked for more info and got it. You have a weird understanding of the English language.

I mean that we can be quite confident that Scotland will need to reapply to join the EU and there will be obstacles.

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 01:06 PM
......This is the same problem that has been encountered in the US - anyone can push counties around, states take more work and/or bigger players but only the biggest can boss around the federal goverment. If you re-read the rest of my post with that context in mind, you'll see where I'm coming from I hope. .....

Yeah I get that. The thing is half of the US thinks the Federal government is the enemy. The Tea Party practically live that view as a religion.

I'm just looking to understand the issue better. I am in favour of collectivism, so see little need for Scotland to break off, but I also can see they have historically been shit on. The UK national anthem at one time included the verse:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save The King.

I guess a person could take that the wrong way....

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 01:09 PM
... there will be obstacles.

Oh fair enough. What was I thinking? It's too hard let's not bother at all...

jturner
10-09-2014, 01:57 PM
Yeah I get that. The thing is half of the US thinks the Federal government is the enemy. The Tea Party practically live that view as a religion.

Same problem - the shadow is getting the blame and the elephant in the room goes unnoticied yet again. This has been described as one of the greatest propaganda coups of all time.


I'm just looking to understand the issue better. I am in favour of collectivism, so see little need for Scotland to break off, but I also can see they have historically been shit on. The UK national anthem at one time included the verse:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save The King.

I guess a person could take that the wrong way....

Aren't we all?
I also appreciate that "they have historically been shit on" to use your phrase - welcome to the world of imperial rule - but I fail to see how that makes the decision to do something based on the promises of a politician that could be highly risky and potentially destructive to their own country and their own interests, any more sensible. If this is all about "revenge against the colonial oppressors" or Braveheart-esque chestbeating, then it just makes it mildy pathetic. FWIW, I believe the dream offered by this independance is just that, but it fits in well with the same and very real sentiment articulated by the likes of the Tea Party, as you mentioned above; "those barstewards in London don't care about us". But the problem with that sentiment is just the same as that of the Tea Party's though.

Gareth Jones
10-09-2014, 02:10 PM
Yeah I get that. The thing is half of the US thinks the Federal government is the enemy. The Tea Party practically live that view as a religion.

I'm just looking to understand the issue better. I am in favour of collectivism, so see little need for Scotland to break off, but I also can see they have historically been shit on. The UK national anthem at one time included the verse:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save The King.

I guess a person could take that the wrong way....

Incorrect, that verse was written and used infrequently by anti-Jacobites around 1745 and fell out of use well before the song known as God save the King became the national anthem. There was also an additional verse written at the same time by the Jacobites to support their cause and various other verses to support other causes but all of these fell out of use by the time the song became accepted at the national anthem in the late 1700's.

Wikipedia has a good write up. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen)

Chrisch
10-09-2014, 02:15 PM
..... FWIW, I believe the dream offered by this independance is just that, but it fits in well with the same and very real sentiment articulated by the likes of the Tea Party, as you mentioned above; "those barstewards in London don't care about us". But the problem with that sentiment is just the same as that of the Tea Party's though.

Yes - I think this is probably the true situation. Whilst I am sure the Westminster politicos don't give a tinker's about Scotland (other than the Eton boys' grouse shooting moors) independence is no panacea. I am genuinely curious why the Westminster mob are so worried though. The lies are getting more and more stupid and transparent and all three leaders do appear to be shitting themselves. The fuckwit papers like the Mail are having a fit and running round shouting the sky is falling. I do wonder why? Does Scotland have something they want or is Rothermere worried about his grouse shooting moors? Perhaps he thinks the Scots will shoot him and Dacre (go you Scots!)

The UK's own loony tea party are out there too. Vote UKIP to stay out and get in at the same time. I think Doolittle had an animal like that.

drysuitdiver
10-09-2014, 02:20 PM
to be fair I live in London and the barstewards in Westminster don't give a feck about us either. all they care about is westminster .
180 Miles from Westminister in a straight line is cornwall
same as thurso is from edinburgh
what next , the north of Scotland wanting independence from the south of Scotland because they are too far away to be relevant.

its all obblox to be honest.most of what salmond is bleating about scotland does for itself now. and look at that nutter Bruce ogilvie the seed of gaels fella. a scottish BNPif ever i saw one

Nitnab Nhoj
10-09-2014, 03:16 PM
I've just realised that all my pensions come from Scotland - so that's me fucked then!

Barrygoss
10-09-2014, 04:46 PM
If it's good for the goose....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9151646/Scotlands-oil-rich-Northern-Isles-tell-Alex-Salmond-We-might-stay-with-UK.html

That would be interesting, a Non-EU country between two parts of a single EU country.

B

Ron MacRae
10-09-2014, 04:48 PM
I've just realised that all my pensions come from Scotland - so that's me fucked then!
Don't worry. These guys will be the first to move south if there is a yes vote.

Iain Smith
10-09-2014, 05:52 PM
Why will independent Scotland be outside the EU?

Because a seceding region of an existing country will no longer be part of the EU. How many senior EU figures have to spell that out in words of one syllable before the Yes Campaign gets it?


It is possible (if unlikely) that Scotland would boom as a "new" EU country

And, if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.


there are many people making a lot of noise about what will happen when it is not know what will happen.

So WTF are we having a vote when we don't know what that vote will mean. It's not worrying about the detail. We have no knowledge where Scotland will be placed in relation to almost any of the major issues surrounding a country. We have plenty of assertion from the Yes Campaign with no acceptance from Salmond et al that there is even the possibility that they might not get what they want.


In respect of the EU is there any reason that Scotland cannot break it's formal agreement with the UK at the same time as renewing it's EU membership?

What part of which EU treaty deals with "renewing of membership"? Or is this a construct which the Yes Campaign have now invented in the mistaken belief that they might not find themselves out in the cold.


The whole silly argument on both sides revolves around taking a point of speculation about what might happen, pretending it is fact and written in stone then using it to back up the position the person wants to take based on their emotive beliefs. It is, in effect, a religious argument not a scientific one. At the core of the issue is the simple basic question - do you want to govern yourselves? Yes/no.

It's nothing of the kind. What does "governing ourselves" mean in real world terms? Taking a deliberately extreme position to demonstrate the fallacy of that argument: If you knew that "governing ourselves" mean that Scotland was out of the UK, out of the EU, out of NATO, with no currency union, no use of the Euro, with Orkney and Shetland choosing to remain with the UK and, that Scotland retained use of none of the UK institutions and (for the sake of argument) with no oil revenue, would you vote "yes" on this "basic question"? Or would you say "That's a ridiculous idea. The "principle" of independence isn't worth the crippling effect of this on the national economy or the pain it will inflict on the population.

If there are any circumstances in which self government would not be "worth the cost" you have accepted that it's not a simple question.
If, on the other hand, there is no price (however high) that you would be prepared to see the whole of Scotland have to pay , then (to quote Sean Connery in The Rock), "Personally, I think you're a fucking idiot. General, sir"

Iain

Iain Smith
10-09-2014, 06:04 PM
One does not actually need a credible plan - the decision is one of principle.

Sweet Jesus. What colour is the sky on your planet?

Most of us choose to live in the real world. The real world of "How much am I going to earn?" [and in what currency], "Can I pay my mortgage? My food bills? Can I put fuel in the car?" Even (for those of us who are fortunate enough) "Can I afford helium and boat fees to go diving?". "How much do I need to set aside for my retirement?"

Voting for "independence" (which, as has been pointed out by others, is nothing of the kind) comes with consequences. If I knew what those consequences were, I would give it serious consideration. When virtually every major organisation which expresses a view indicates that those consequences will be adverse and the response for the secessionists (thanks, btw, to whoever corrected me on the appropriate word) is nothing more than "It will be as we say." or (at their most honest) "We will negotiate for it", I have no interest whatsoever in the "principle" of self governance.

In an "independent" Scotland, my democratic representation would be no more and no less than it is currently. I get one vote to cast in favour of the candidate who I wish to represent me. We already live in a self governing country.

Iain Smith
10-09-2014, 06:29 PM
[Edit: Gareth got there first, debunking the idea that the "Marshall Wade" verse was anything more than a London music hall addition at time of the Jacobite rebellion]

Cheeky Monkey
10-09-2014, 08:07 PM
Oh fair enough. What was I thinking? It's too hard let's not bother at all...

or how about "that's not going to work, what will ?"

Mikael
10-09-2014, 08:08 PM
If it's good for the goose....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9151646/Scotlands-oil-rich-Northern-Isles-tell-Alex-Salmond-We-might-stay-with-UK.html

That would be interesting, a Non-EU country between two parts of a single EU country.

B

Tavish Scott has been banging this drum for some time, it is nothing new. It is true these islands have a more distance relationship to Holyrood, the question is how serious are the islanders themselves about a move to independence. The Cornish independence movement is arguably better founded and more active. They even have the Mebyon Kernow party that campaigns for devolution. There is no such equivalent for the Northern Isles.

In the 2011 consensus around 60% of people in Shetland identified themselves as Scottish only, with smaller numbers identifying as both Scottish and British as well as Other. The referendum has no doubt shifted some opinion in the islands but as of yet there has not been any negotiation over an opt out. I would imagine that if there was a Yes vote the Northern Islands might well bargain for greater autonomy which they would likely get.

Could there be route for the Northern Isles to become island enclaves of the UK? Possibly but at the moment it appears to be more a loose sentiment then the actual will of the islanders.

Barrygoss
10-09-2014, 08:20 PM
Tavish Scott has been banging this drum for some time, it is nothing new. It is true these islands have a more distance relationship to Holyrood, the question is how serious are the islanders themselves about a move to independence. The Cornish independence movement is arguably better founded and more active. They even have the Mebyon Kernow party that campaigns for devolution. There is no such equivalent for the Northern Isles.

In the 2011 consensus around 60% of people in Shetland identified themselves as Scottish only, with smaller numbers identifying as both Scottish and British as well as Other. The referendum has no doubt shifted some opinion in the islands but as of yet there has not been any negotiation over an opt out. I would imagine that if there was a Yes vote the Northern Islands might well bargain for greater autonomy which they would likely get.

Could there be route for the Northern Isles to become island enclaves of the UK? Possibly but at the moment it appears to be more a loose sentiment then the actual will of the islanders.

Lol.
They have a right to self determine.
You should be encouraging that, just like the Uk did with Scotland ;)

After all, only about 50% of Scotland wants to be a separate country

B

Hickdive
10-09-2014, 08:48 PM
You can bet that, when the islands start to lose services as a result of the inevitable economic catastrophe that will accompany independence, the clamour for independence for Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles will be deafening.

The arguments they'll present will be exactly the same as the SNP's case for Scottish independence and therefore the SNP could not possibly object to a referendum for the islands. Unless of course they were utterly undemocratic hypocrites...oh, wait.

SoggyBottoms
10-09-2014, 09:02 PM
it appears to be more a loose sentiment then the actual will of the islanders.

in my experience Shetlanders and Orcadians want fook all to do with Edinbourgeois and Weegies. best of luck to them.

Hickdive
10-09-2014, 09:13 PM
Lerwick is as far from Edinburgh as Edinburgh is from London and Edinburgh is just as capable of making remote and high-handed decisions.

It was the SNP government that awarded the Northlink Ferries contract to Serco. Serco being renowned the world over for providing a whole variety of services - badly.

Hickdive
10-09-2014, 09:17 PM
Why should Shetland, with their vast oil wealth, subsidise the unemployed of the central belt or vanity projects like the commonwealth games, edinburgh trams or the new forth crossing?

Mikael
10-09-2014, 09:23 PM
Why should Shetland, with their vast oil wealth, subsidise the unemployed of the central belt or vanity projects like the commonwealth games, edinburgh trams or the new forth crossing?

Why do they currently subsidise any number of similar projects in the wider UK?

Barrygoss
10-09-2014, 09:26 PM
Why do they currently subsidise any number of similar projects in the wider UK?

Maybe, because they want to be part of a union called the UK ;) and feel that's money well spent.

Maybe, they'd like to self determine. Maybe that may not be with an iscot, but that's their choice.

:)

B

and maybe, just maybe, you're now feeling just a little bit of the angst/worry that the rest of the UK has been feeling about Scotland wanting to break away

dunk67
10-09-2014, 10:03 PM
Here is a link to the petition for independence lodged by individuals for the Orkney Shetland and Comhairlie nan Eilean earlier this year.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups

Didn't get far, 70000 combined population, 165 signatures, 150 comments.

I know people in each of the 3 areas, and I visit regularly for work and diving, there is no organised movement for change although I do hear the occasional comment in Shetland.

Barrygoss
10-09-2014, 10:38 PM
Here is a link to the petition for independence lodged by individuals for the Orkney Shetland and Comhairlie nan Eilean earlier this year.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups

Didn't get far, 70000 combined population, 165 signatures, 150 comments.

I know people in each of the 3 areas, and I visit regularly for work and diving, there is no organised movement for change although I do hear the occasional comment in Shetland.

there is no organised movement for change, YET.
there are 68Million people in the british isles. 2 million want to break away. The UK didnt discount them, just as you have done....

but hey, that's a democracy working.

B


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29151798 so the rats are deserting already.

dunk67
10-09-2014, 10:59 PM
there is no organised movement for change, YET.
there are 68Million people in the british isles. 2 million want to break away. The UK didnt discount them, just as you have done....

but hey, that's a democracy working.

B

Not discounting anything, a recent petition didn't gain much interest.

2 milliion being roughly half scotlands voters? 300 out of 70000 is not a big fraction.

A democratically elected MP voted in on an independence referendum manifesto would carry weight.

I am all for self goverance but holding a referendum every time 300 (worldwide) signatures are collected would not be practical.

(in terms of RBS etc, Standard Life have also announced contingency plans to ensure currency issues don't impact on investors, seems prudent)

Mikael
10-09-2014, 11:16 PM
there is no organised movement for change, YET.

You seem to assume that there will invariably be such a movement. While this could well happen, potentially triggered by the outcome on the 18th this is not a given. I can only assume that your certainty arises due to conformation bias.

If the Northern Isles wish to seek self determination then I say that is their choice, I won't hold any ill will over it and I certainly won't refer to them as a malignant limb.


there are 68Million people in the british isles. 2 million want to break away. The UK didnt discount them, just as you have done....

Dunk67 isn't discounting anyone, he has just shared a poll carried out by the islanders themselves.


but hey, that's a democracy working.

Scotland's independence movement has been a lengthy one, first attaining a devolved parliament followed by the rise and eventual election of a majority SNP government (in an electoral system designed to make majority governments rare) who's state aim it was to have a referendum on independence. After much campaigning we are now days from that referendum.

Strikes me as very democratic. The day the Northern Isles start an organised movement it will be very interesting to follow but as of yet it hasn't happened.

braun
11-09-2014, 06:02 AM
http://s27.postimg.org/l5ccwfxkz/1663750058.jpg

drysuitdiver
11-09-2014, 06:55 AM
well the justice minister seems to have been given the same brainwash as Salmond regarding the currency. apparently its all Gideonbs fault even though it was Marc Carney ( a canadian with a fair bit of economic nouse) that stated definitley not.

and a new poll showing 48% yes 52% no

and now the Chair of John Lewis hints at different pricing structure in Scotland if the is a yes vote. we all know which way thats going to go.

somebody hasn't really thought this full independence out properly have they.

Nitnab Nhoj
11-09-2014, 07:45 AM
All people voting in Scotland should see this: https://www.facebook.com/nick.lyon.18/posts/737859529582589?notif_t=close_friend_activity or https://www.facebook.com/jim.swift.754

Chrisch
11-09-2014, 08:09 AM
.....What does "governing ourselves" mean in real world terms? Taking a deliberately extreme position to demonstrate the fallacy of that argument: If you knew that "governing ourselves" mean that Scotland was out of the UK, out of the EU, out of NATO, with no currency union, no use of the Euro, with Orkney and Shetland choosing to remain with the UK and, that Scotland retained use of none of the UK institutions and (for the sake of argument) with no oil revenue, would you vote "yes" on this "basic question"? Or would you say "That's a ridiculous idea. The "principle" of independence isn't worth the crippling effect of this on the national economy or the pain it will inflict on the population.....

There you go. See, if you try hard you can understand. Your example is exactly the question put forward. Should Scotland be an independent country? Independent of what? I don't have a vote so I cannot answer the latter half of your question, or at least not from a Scottish perspective. It is a principled question not a pragmatic one. The "crippling effect of this on the national economy" is your personal PoV of the results, your opinion. Of course it may be that breaking away from some or all of the institutions you mention might be damaging. Or it might not. There is, I'm afraid, only one way to find out. Or stay second class Brits. The choice is yours. I don't mind either way TBH.

Chrisch
11-09-2014, 08:11 AM
.....
and now the Chair of John Lewis hints at different pricing structure in Scotland if the is a yes vote. .....

They really are shitting themselves. Does he also have some grouse moors?

jturner
11-09-2014, 08:21 AM
They really are shitting themselves. Does he also have some grouse moors?

Perhaps but more likely, he's doing his job as chairman and seeking to maximise his company's profits by taking advantage of an opportunity presented to him by potential independance and thus secure himself a big bonus and job security. I'm sure he won't be the only one. Strangely enough though, it's all just dismissed as scare-mongering by the SNP... scary it may or may not be, but when you look at it without the ideological blinkers on, it makes perfect sense and some would say would be a predictable outcome - "that's what I would do if I was in his shoes". Still, let's not let the truth get in the way of a shining dream eh?

Baron015
11-09-2014, 08:23 AM
They really are shitting themselves. Does he also have some grouse moors?

Ha ha wait until you see the taxes in France. As a Johnny Foreigner and second home owner you will be right in the sweet spot to be squeezed until the pips squeak.

You'll be considering a move to Scotland before long ....

Cheeky Monkey
11-09-2014, 09:02 AM
If the Northern Isles wish to seek self determination then I say that is their choice

I asked round last night, there are 8 houses in my cul de sac, only 4 answered the door, but 2 agreed with me that independence would be nice, so thats 3/8 so we're off and forming our own country :)

Anyone remember Danny Wallace and the micronation Lovely ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Start_Your_Own_Country


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-CFz9kYBJI

Chrisch
11-09-2014, 11:07 AM
Ha ha wait until you see the taxes in France. As a Johnny Foreigner and second home owner you will be right in the sweet spot to be squeezed until the pips squeak.

You'll be considering a move to Scotland before long ....

I lived there 3 years and have owned property there over 10. French tax is much the same as UK tax. Work wise you pay less in France than the UK. My Uncle is retired there and pays French tax as it is cheaper than UK tax.

As to Scotland I do like the place and wouldn't mind living there if it was not for the short day lengths. I looked a number of years ago round Bearsden, but there really isn't much work for the missus. I have researched Oban quite thoroughly at one point, but in the end we figured that France was better at every level - food, climate, culture and cost. The diving is - IMHO - a bit better in western Scotland, but the lack of any tidal considerations swung it for France - we can park the RIB up and dive off it without worrying about getting swept away in the tide. It's also a long way from the Lot and the caves, whereas we are only a couple of hours away in Montpellier.

Crazy Badger
11-09-2014, 12:49 PM
As to Scotland I do like the place and wouldn't mind living there if it was not for the short day lengths.

I've been up here for just over 6 years now, and can categorically state that the days are the same 24 hour length as every other place I've lived :D

Baron015
11-09-2014, 02:36 PM
I lived there 3 years and have owned property there over 10. French tax is much the same as UK tax. Work wise you pay less in France than the UK. My Uncle is retired there and pays French tax as it is cheaper than UK tax.

As to Scotland I do like the place and wouldn't mind living there if it was not for the short day lengths. I looked a number of years ago round Bearsden, but there really isn't much work for the missus. I have researched Oban quite thoroughly at one point, but in the end we figured that France was better at every level - food, climate, culture and cost. The diving is - IMHO - a bit better in western Scotland, but the lack of any tidal considerations swung it for France - we can park the RIB up and dive off it without worrying about getting swept away in the tide. It's also a long way from the Lot and the caves, whereas we are only a couple of hours away in Montpellier.

So much for Monsieur Hollande tax and spend plans then......

Before you know it, France will be asking for independence !

Chrisch
11-09-2014, 03:10 PM
So much for Monsieur Hollande tax and spend plans then......

They want him out over austerity!


Before you know it, France will be asking for independence !

The Le Pen family certainly do.

Chrisch
11-09-2014, 03:24 PM
Saw this and thought of Baron015.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/history-shows-that-if-scotland-gains-its-independence-it-wont-look-back-with-regret-9724535.html

Baron015
11-09-2014, 03:48 PM
Saw this and thought of Baron015.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/history-shows-that-if-scotland-gains-its-independence-it-wont-look-back-with-regret-9724535.html

Well yes of course that could be another way to go.

Scotland like Chechnya, Edinburg like Grozny. Orkney and Shetland like Dagestan and Ingushetia. UK can be the carpet-bombing human-rights-defying civilian-murdering Russia and Cameron can make the same mistakes as Yeltzin and then the totalitarian military choices of Putin.

But is Salmond in the genuine independence-seeking rebel role of Dzhokha Dudayev or Shamil Basayev, or the turncoat and FSB stooge Ramzan Kadyrov ?

Oh yeah, it not really comparable is it.

Baron015
11-09-2014, 03:55 PM
They want him out over austerity!


Is this the same kind of "cuts" we have in the UK, which is in fact higher levels of borrowing and spending than ever before ?

braun
12-09-2014, 06:27 AM
Tired of hearing the whinging and whining now. Didn't want you to go initially but now I want you all to vote yes and just sod off.
Turn yourselves back a century or two and return to being a load of cave dwelling Porridge Wogs! Your choice, just get on with it!


I lurve Fridays :rofl:

Joe Narvey
12-09-2014, 07:38 AM
Tired of hearing the whinging and whining now. Didn't want you to go initially but now I want you all to vote yes and just sod off.
Turn yourselves back a century or two and return to being a load of cave dwelling Porridge Wogs! Your choice, just get on with it!


I lurve Fridays :rofl:

Get off the fence and have an opinion !

Chrisch
12-09-2014, 07:48 AM
It is getting a bit tedious now. The nutters are out in force. The claims getting more and more ridiculous. I honestly feel sorry for anyone trying to make a decision based on "the facts".

braun
12-09-2014, 07:52 AM
It is getting a bit tedious now. The nutters are out in force. The claims getting more and more ridiculous. I honestly feel sorry for anyone trying to make a decision based on "the facts".
"the facts"???? LMAO you are dealing with politicians here. Given that it is in a politicians DNA to lie and cheat 'facts' are going to be hard to come by :puke

braun
12-09-2014, 08:20 AM
http://s27.postimg.org/spgk6paw3/independence.jpg

jturner
12-09-2014, 08:20 AM
It is getting a bit tedious now. The nutters are out in force. The claims getting more and more ridiculous. I honestly feel sorry for anyone trying to make a decision based on "the facts".

+1 to that. The stench of bullshit reaches as far south as here. A shock and awe negative campaign from the No side apparently and more lies and denial from the Yes side. You couldn't make this stuff up. It's just a pity that something so important is being discussed and debated under these terms.

jturner
12-09-2014, 08:24 AM
Oh yeah, it not really comparable is it.

Chalk and cheese springs to mind!

Mikael
12-09-2014, 09:47 AM
+1 to that. The stench of bullshit reaches as far south as here. A shock and awe negative campaign from the No side apparently and more lies and denial from the Yes side. You couldn't make this stuff up. It's just a pity that something so important is being discussed and debated under these terms.

This is indeed true among the politicians. What many south of the border may be missing is just how positive and widespread the ground roots movement is, at least on the Yes side in my experience. Here the words of both Westminster and Holyrood are taken with a serious pinch of salt. Giving the overwhelming pro - union bias of the mass media the Yes campaign has had to be ground roots based and they have had to raise their game above the Darling - Salmond bickering level. Scots distrust politicians as much as the next person so had the ground roots movement not offered something more then it would never have had the traction it has had as evidenced by the polls though they can also thank Better Together who's utter incompetence at times has turned people right off, case in point;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU

This was so bad it resulted in endlessly parodies at Better Together's expense

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwC4Hm0CAAAVJJd.png:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwCrHqNIMAAo6Nu.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bl1qQPWtU0

jturner
12-09-2014, 12:03 PM
This is indeed true among the politicians. What many south of the border may be missing is just how positive and widespread the ground roots movement is, at least on the Yes side in my experience.

Well, that's not shared by the only people north of the border who I've spoken to about it, who described bullying tactics and being treated as if they were utter numpties for having the cheek to actually not want independance... so maybe it is not as widespread as you think.

Barrygoss
12-09-2014, 12:12 PM
You seem to assume that there will invariably be such a movement. While this could well happen, potentially triggered by the outcome on the 18th this is not a given. I can only assume that your certainty arises due to conformation bias.

If the Northern Isles wish to seek self determination then I say that is their choice, I won't hold any ill will over it and I certainly won't refer to them as a malignant limb.

Dunk67 isn't discounting anyone, he has just shared a poll carried out by the islanders themselves.

Scotland's independence movement has been a lengthy one, first attaining a devolved parliament followed by the rise and eventual election of a majority SNP government (in an electoral system designed to make majority governments rare) who's state aim it was to have a referendum on independence. After much campaigning we are now days from that referendum.

Strikes me as very democratic. The day the Northern Isles start an organised movement it will be very interesting to follow but as of yet it hasn't happened.

It's interesting the niether Dunk67 or yourself have actually checked the link he shared.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/Ge...s/islandgroups

the box on the right hand side shows the number of electronic votes - 1177
There are also 135 hard copy signatures.

This is from an electorate of 32181 (wiki) so 4%

Take the figures for Scotland back when it start the independence debate - 2Million (and that's generous as the electorate has grown with all the voters joining to give the UK a kicking)
out of a Electorate of 46,535,900 (the lower of the numbers I could have chosen) - or 4%

Strange that, the same percentage of the population want independence, but the Scottish aren't entertaining it....

I'd suggest without the Northern Isles and their oil the independence capaign would be less than a damp squib.

Although this comment on the petition did make me smile:

"5 August 2014: The Committee agreed to close the petition under Rule 15.7 on the basis that that the Scottish Government has indicated that it does not support what the petition seeks and that there is insufficient time to arrange such referenda within the timescale called for in the petition"

As I said, good for the goose should be good for the gander.

B

Mikael
12-09-2014, 05:18 PM
The copy of the link you have shared appears to be missing a bit so here it is again;
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups


It's interesting the niether Dunk67 or yourself have actually checked the link he shared.

I did follow the link and note the difference between electronic and hard copy signatures. Much like you I also did a quick sum and got the 4% figure you arrived at. I did not feel this was much to get excited about. I did go and read some more newspaper articles on the subject as well as reading the comments sections.

It is worth noting on the petition it states the following;

You do not have to live in Shetland, Orkney or the Western Isles to sign this petition. But wherever you live, please sign it if you would like residents to be able to decide the status of their islands.

It would be interest to try to get hold of the actual results to see how many of the 1177 electronic signatures were from Islanders themselves. Reading the comments section on other articles there were self professed Islanders who claimed that the call for independence was a fringe activity and one person even said that they suspected that a large number of non islanders had been signing petition electronically to expressly cast doubt over the issue in relation the broader Scottish referendum.


Take the figures for Scotland back when it start the independence debate - 2Million (and that's generous as the electorate has grown with all the voters joining to give the UK a kicking)
out of a Electorate of 46,535,900 (the lower of the numbers I could have chosen) - or 4%

What are these numbers and where are you getting them from?
I can have a guess but I would rather hear it from yourself.

You could be right, this could well be more then just a damp squib but until it goes any where we have Scottish referendum to get on with.

drysuitdiver
12-09-2014, 05:25 PM
so being more fairer than the scottish independence vote then by offering it to ALL that could be affected rather than only some.

Barrygoss
12-09-2014, 05:45 PM
The copy of the link you have shared appears to be missing a bit so here it is again;
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups



I did follow the link and note the difference between electronic and hard copy signatures. Much like you I also did a quick sum and got the 4% figure you arrived at. I did not feel this was much to get excited about. I did go and read some more newspaper articles on the subject as well as reading the comments sections.

It is worth noting on the petition it states the following;

You do not have to live in Shetland, Orkney or the Western Isles to sign this petition. But wherever you live, please sign it if you would like residents to be able to decide the status of their islands.

It would be interest to try to get hold of the actual results to see how many of the 1177 electronic signatures were from Islanders themselves. Reading the comments section on other articles there were self professed Islanders who claimed that the call for independence was a fringe activity and one person even said that they suspected that a large number of non islanders had been signing petition electronically to expressly cast doubt over the issue in relation the broader Scottish referendum.



What are these numbers and where are you getting them from?
I can have a guess but I would rather hear it from yourself.

You could be right, this could well be more then just a damp squib but until it goes any where we have Scottish referendum to get on with.

LMAO, so you knew the numbers quoted were wrong but continued to promugulate them. Are you Alex Salmond?

and now you're sanctimoniously asking me for my sources.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/electoral-statistics-for-uk/2011/stb---2011-electoral-statistics.html

the local government figures are higher - I could have used them, or even the 2012 or 2013 figures (which were higher)

Still 4% of the UK electorate managed to get a seperatist movement from the UK government, but the 4% in your Scottish population are dismissed, because without them....

I'd call the Northern Isles hostages to fortune, maybe we'll organise a task force to liberate them :D


B

Iain Smith
12-09-2014, 05:53 PM
case in point;

As I said to my sadly deluded cousin (yes, there's one in every family), in the event of a yes result, you are welcome to find whoever commissioned, accepted and decided to broadcast that and put them against the wall. I'll pull the trigger.

Then again, I suspect King Alex will be knighting them for services to the Cause.

However, dire propaganda isn't unique to one side. Remember the equally pathetic Duggy Dug? One of his "leavings":

http://youtu.be/vJuddbV7rb8




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mikael
12-09-2014, 06:17 PM
LMAO, so you knew the numbers quoted were wrong but continued to promugulate them. Are you Alex Salmond?

I have not promulgated Dunk67 figures, I have just said that there seems to be little appetite for independence judging on the fact that there has been nothing like an independence movement in these Islands. A recent petition that got at most 4% doesn't seem to change that. Note, the petition was on whether to have a referenda so we can't even conclude that all the signatures (hard copy or electronic) were for independence only that they wanted to democratically decide. Could a Scottish Yes result precipitate the birth of serious independence moment on these Islands? Quite possibly, this I have already acknowledged.


and now you're sanctimoniously asking me for my sources.

I thought I knew what you had done but part of me couldn't quite believe that you would intentionally have made such an irrational comparison.

You take number of positively petition signatures as a percentage of the overall Island population but with Scottish Independence you take the number of pro independence supporters (an estimate but fair enough I have no objection given the difficult of obtaining a hard number on this one) as a percentage of the TOTAL UK POPULATION?!!! How are these in any way comparable?

Would be rUK citizens don't get to vote on the 18th and if there were Island referenda mainland Scottish citizens wouldn't get to vote there either.

To have any comparison you either work our 1177 signatures as percentage of the Scottish population (or even the UK one) or you take Scottish Yes supporters as percentage of the Scottish population (ie around 2 million out of 5 million).

Barry you seem to have, in a desire to score cheap points, lost the plot slightly. That or you are trolling, it is hard to tell?. Either way, are you ok?

Barrygoss
12-09-2014, 06:47 PM
I have not promulgated Dunk67 figures, I have just said that there seems to be little appetite for independence judging on the fact that there has been nothing like an independence movement in these Islands. A recent petition that got at most 4% doesn't seem to change that. Note, the petition was on whether to have a referenda so we can't even conclude that all the signatures (hard copy or electronic) were for independence only that they wanted to democratically decide. Could a Scottish Yes result precipitate the birth of serious independence moment on these Islands? Quite possibly, this I have already acknowledged.



I thought I knew what you had done but part of me couldn't quite believe that you would intentionally have made such an irrational comparison.

You take number of positively petition signatures as a percentage of the overall Island population but with Scottish Independence you take the number of pro independence supporters (an estimate but fair enough I have no objection given the difficult of obtaining a hard number on this one) as a percentage of the TOTAL UK POPULATION?!!! How are these in any way comparable?

Would be rUK citizens don't get to vote on the 18th and if there were Island referenda mainland Scottish citizens wouldn't get to vote there either.

To have any comparison you either work our 1177 signatures as percentage of the Scottish population (or even the UK one) or you take Scottish Yes supporters as percentage of the Scottish population (ie around 2 million out of 5 million).

Barry you seem to have, in a desire to score cheap points, lost the plot slightly. That or you are trolling, it is hard to tell?. Either way, are you ok?

Mikey, you owe me a new keyboard.

I'll take this slowly for you ;)


Dunk67 isn't discounting anyone, he has just shared a poll carried out by the islanders themselves.
Not Dunk67 just quoted a wrong figure and
2 milliion being roughly half scotlands voters? 300 out of 70000 is not a big fraction. is incorrect - promogulation of an inaccuracy makes you party to the inaccuracy.

So the easy one, I'll wait till you understand..

I thought I knew what you had done but part of me couldn't quite believe that you would intentionally have made such an irrational comparison.

You take number of positively petition signatures as a percentage of the overall Island population but with Scottish Independence you take the number of pro independence supporters (an estimate but fair enough I have no objection given the difficult of obtaining a hard number on this one) as a percentage of the TOTAL UK POPULATION?!!! How are these in any way comparable?


Now I spent some time thinking about this, the UK, prior to the desire to seperate was one population.

The Northern Isles and Scotland (NOT the Island population, Scotland isn't an Island, however much the parochial sense may wish) prior to the movement getting going, is one population. They are the same starting point. It is only your own parochial senses that cannot see that. 4% of our electorate and we gave the opportunity, 4% of your electorate and you won't consider it. I call Hypocrisy.

This comment made me laugh

You take number of positively petition signatures as a percentage of the overall Island population but with Scottish Independence you take the number of pro independence supporters (an estimate but fair enough I have no objection given the difficult of obtaining a hard number on this one) I bet you do, what was the points difference as a percentage of electoral vote back in 2011? 25% less (i.e. 3% not 4% as now)

OH and incase you didn't/couldn't understand: those figures I used were electoral figures, not population, or sorry "TOTAL UK POPULATION?!!!" so they are entirely comparable.

and as for

Barry you seem to have, in a desire to score cheap points, lost the plot slightly. That or you are trolling, it is hard to tell?. Either way, are you ok? that's playing the man and not the ball and is a sure sign of an argument lost, or lack of ability to respond. However,just for the avoidance of doubt: nope. not trolling, attempting to give some facts and figures to a lot of misrepresentations - you may have noticed that the one thing that really piques me is BS dressed up as fact.

And as for a desire to score cheap points? stop making cheap points to be gained :P

B

Crazy Badger
12-09-2014, 07:22 PM
I'll just be happy this time next week that it's all over :D

Vote is in the post and I can't see how anyone who hasn't already made up their mind is going to helped in the next 7 days. There's been very little factual information from either side, and whilst you could probably watch 24 hour reports from now to the 18th there won't be anything new other than more hot air and bluster from both camps.

I'd like to hope this will have given Westminster a kick up the backside whatever the result, but I suspect they'll be back to shouting at each other across the room as though nothing significant has happened in the event of No vote. Can't even begin to think what the impact of a Yes vote will be, not just up here but across the rest of the UK and Europe. Anyone know how you get the BBC to pay for you to visit Australia with a view to relocating??

Eddie Clamp
12-09-2014, 07:37 PM
Apt or not? :yawn:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWY9PnwlWrs

Mikael
13-09-2014, 12:32 AM
Now I spent some time thinking about this, the UK, prior to the desire to seperate was one population.

There is one population in the UK as the state but the UK is also comprised of several parts that have distinctive cultural identities with varying degrees of local autonomy (such as Scotland's devolved parliament). To ignore this seems rash to me but I guess if you feel it supports your argument then go ahead this is not my primary objection to the arguments you are making.


The Northern Isles and Scotland (NOT the Island population, Scotland isn't an Island, however much the parochial sense may wish) prior to the movement getting going, is one population.

You are mistaken, I don't recall at any point saying that Scotland was an Island. If you can't point to any part of my previous statement that says this then I will happily edit it.


They are the same starting point. It is only your own parochial senses that cannot see that. 4% of our electorate and we gave the opportunity, 4% of your electorate and you won't consider it. I call Hypocrisy.

Your are making this up.
If the Isles want to seek self determination then that is their choice.
I have not opposed this in any way.

Hope that clears things up.


I bet you do, what was the points difference as a percentage of electoral vote back in 2011? 25% less (i.e. 3% not 4% as now)

You choose the figure of 2 million but fine if the 2011 number is 25% less then you are still comparing it to the UK electorate which is completely erroneous.


OH and incase you didn't/couldn't understand: those figures I used were electoral figures, not population, or sorry "TOTAL UK POPULATION?!!!" so they are entirely comparable.


I stand corrected you did indeed say electoral figure and I went with population, my mistake.
Even if we work with the electoral figure, I still disagree with your basic assumption that how we measure the support for leaving is to compare against the total population of the greater entity that that part wants to leave



In a previous post you used the Northern Isles electorate figure (circa 32,000) and the support figure (1177 + 135) to work out how popular that option was. Yet now you are arguing that you should the use the wider entity's (from which the part wants to leave) electorate figure to work out how popular independence is.

If we are to apply your assumption to the Northern Isles situation using the UK electorate figure of circa 45 million then support for their independence is a mere 0.003%. If you use the Scottish electorate figure of circa 4 million then support is still only 0.03%
(4 million from the Scottish parliament electorate figure 2011 so as avoid the massive increase to the 97 % registration level as seen just now for the referendum)

Of course this is nonsense and the exact reason you used Northern Isles electorate and the petition figure to begin with. With that in mind why should it be different when talking about Scottish independence, why not use Scottish electorate figure and Scottish support, ie for the part that might leave figure out how many within its electorate are in favour.
I note that you have yet to address my point that the petition itself was seeking support to hold referenda on independence so this can not be used to judge the level of support for idea in of itself, it only shows the level of support to decided the matter democratically. At the end of the day we don't know how many in the Northern Isles support independence.

Your statement about 'my electorate not giving the 4% their chance' has been blown out the water because as seen above it is actually 0.03% by your assumptions but more importantly the petition was closed because it was felt a petition seeking referenda for September had been submitted too late and their was no government support for it (there was mention of a proposal for changes). At the end of day this petition went in at the end of April and was closed in August. One person on the committee suggested that a better date for submission would have been around the time of the Edinburgh Agreement (2012). The Northern Isles can still seek independence but there won't be referenda on the 25th of September.

Will you call foul at this?


one thing that really piques me is BS dressed up as fact.

So please stop presenting it as fact that I am not considering the right of the Northern Isles to seek self determination.

Chrisch
13-09-2014, 08:28 AM
......
Your are making this up.......

That would make a great strap line for both sides :D

Paulo
13-09-2014, 08:59 AM
Odds at the moment are very much in favour of a no vote 2/9 vs 10/3

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/scottish-politics?

sheesh
13-09-2014, 09:26 AM
Odds at the moment are very much in favour of a no vote 2/9 vs 10/3

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/scottish-politics?
Maybe that's how they are intending paying for separation for just 200m....

Cheeky Monkey
13-09-2014, 10:27 AM
Odds at the moment are very much in favour of a no vote 2/9 vs 10/3

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/scottish-politics?

not gonna get rich on either though :)

Paulo
13-09-2014, 12:06 PM
not gonna get rich on either though :)

No but at those odds the No side is 3 times more likely to win

braun
15-09-2014, 03:36 PM
http://s27.postimg.org/cil2dl0oj/10363787_1447590055465992_6321730818404530191_n.jp g

Mikael
15-09-2014, 03:50 PM
Buzzfeeds what if;
http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/the-siege-of-balamory?bffbuk#2cty6jx

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-09/10/11/enhanced/webdr09/enhanced-26697-1410362194-24.jpg

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-09/11/8/enhanced/webdr01/enhanced-25264-1410439503-10.png

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-09/11/7/enhanced/webdr10/enhanced-10103-1410434318-1.png

braun
16-09-2014, 09:00 AM
http://s23.postimg.org/8hmwlrv2z/10615583_10152383638665665_4313940945462459088_n.j pg

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 09:02 AM
Healthcare tourism...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

Chrisch
16-09-2014, 09:13 AM
Healthcare tourism...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

Yet another media scare story based on no facts at all. There really is a massive and orchestrated campaign of misinformation on this matter. I think I figured it out this morning - with the Scottish oil revenues no longer being in the UK the balance of payments deficit will shoot out of control. The oil taxes don't matter - it is the total receipts that will now be Scottish.

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 09:22 AM
Does anyone ask why there are so many media scare stories? Are Richard Branson, George Robertson, George Galloway, Jim Swift et al all really in the pockets of the Tory mafia?

Garf
16-09-2014, 09:23 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFubsxHTApw

Hickdive
16-09-2014, 09:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFubsxHTApw

Totally unrealistic. Nobody can sit outside a tent in the highlands between March and November without being eaten alive by midges.

Hickdive
16-09-2014, 09:41 AM
Does anyone ask why there are so many media scare stories? Are Richard Branson, George Robertson, George Galloway, Jim Swift et al all really in the pockets of the Tory mafia?

And Deutsche Bank, and Barack Obama, and the Pope and...and..and..

It is pretty incredible that Dave Cameron can apparently manipulate everyone in the world but can't run the economy.

Iain Smith
16-09-2014, 11:03 AM
Does anyone ask why there are so many media scare stories? Are Richard Branson, George Robertson, George Galloway, Jim Swift et al all really in the pockets of the Tory mafia?

Yep. George Galloway is in bed with the Tories...bwahahahaha!!!

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 12:15 PM
What's so wrong with Nationalism? It served the Germans and the Italians well (for a short time).

Chrisch
16-09-2014, 12:32 PM
.....
It is pretty incredible that Dave Cameron can apparently manipulate everyone in the world but can't run the economy.

He's a PR man and good at manipulation. A trained professional liar. (And a very good one). Also the economy is doing fine for his class.

notdeadyet
16-09-2014, 12:33 PM
And Deutsche Bank, and Barack Obama, and the Pope and...and..and..

The CEO of Licensed Paedophilia International, supplier of fairy tales to the gullible for 1500 years, has come down against independence? Wow, that's harsh if one of the cutting edge thinkers of our time says that...

And Obama, worst president in living memory, too?

Shit, now my views are changing...



Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

notdeadyet
16-09-2014, 12:34 PM
What's so wrong with Nationalism? It served the Germans and the Italians well (for a short time).

So good you had to get it in twice? You're not being paid by the word any more...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 12:44 PM
So good you had to get it in twice? You're not being paid by the word any more...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


Hatred for the English over-rides all other consideration.

Mikael
16-09-2014, 12:49 PM
What's so wrong with Nationalism? It served the Germans and the Italians well (for a short time).

The German nationalism referred to is distinctly different to what is happening now in Scotland. For one thing it was extreme form of ethnonationalism while Scottish independence is about the people in Scotland determining its future irrespective of where they were born, what religion, race or creed they are making it inherently inclusive.

I also find it curious that Scottish nationalism (which is about the desire for self determination) is some how a horrible thing but British nationalism (or patriotism if you prefer) such as seen at the unity rally in London is fine?!

http://cdn2.spectator.co.uk/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/2014/09/IMG_2665-550x413.jpg

notdeadyet
16-09-2014, 12:51 PM
Hatred for the English over-rides all other consideration.

Aw feeling unloved?

Chin up, think of all the countries that do love England. Like... errrr...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 12:53 PM
Aw feeling unloved?

Chin up, think of all the countries that do love England. Like... errrr...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

I rest my case!

Iain Smith
16-09-2014, 12:59 PM
I also find it curious that Scottish nationalism (which is about the desire for self determination) is some how a horrible thing but British nationalism (or patriotism if you prefer) such as seen at the unity rally in London is fine?!

Mikael,

I consider myself a Scottish and British patriot. I am neither a Scottish nor a British nationalist. Please do not (intentionally?) confuse the two.

Iain

Iain Smith
16-09-2014, 01:00 PM
And Obama, worst president in living memory, too?

Were you undead or unconscious during Dubya's presidency?

I.

Mikael
16-09-2014, 01:09 PM
Mikael,

I consider myself a Scottish and British patriot. I am neither a Scottish nor a British nationalist. Please do not (intentionally?) confuse the two.

Iain

It was an acknowledgement that some would consider holding a pro union rally was an act of patriotism as opposed to nationalism. In short I am just challenging people to think about how they use these terms in relationship to Scotland's independence movement.

Chrisch
16-09-2014, 01:10 PM
....
Chin up, think of all the countries that do love England. Like... errrr...
....

Japan.

The Japanese love England. They come over on tours to look at the Palace of the German Aristos and the home of the (possibly imaginary) William Shakespeare and all those sorts of quaint Ye Olde Englande things.

Hickdive
16-09-2014, 01:12 PM
I posted Orwell's essay on nationalism which inter alia explained the difference between nationalism and patriotism earlier in this thread.

I also posted it today on my FB timeline in response to someone else who conflates the two. Their reply was that they did not read it. This seems to be a common occurrence but for anyone who might be interested (and I don't include Yes voters in that) here it is yet again;

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

notdeadyet
16-09-2014, 01:22 PM
Were you undead or unconscious during Dubya's presidency?

I.

Bush's presidency regularly beats Obama's in opinion polls. Obama's popularity is in the bog even amongst Democrats. Key policies either fail or scrape through looking nothing like the original. His own party opposes much of his causes. He is rated in negative terms on foreign policy and he is disliked domestically. What notable successes has he had? Obamacare? :chuckle:

Obama's presidency has been a failure. History will look back on him as one of the most useless and ineffectual presidents of modern times. At least Ford had comedy value.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 01:22 PM
I posted Orwell's essay on nationalism which inter alia explained the difference between nationalism and patriotism earlier in this thread.

I also posted it today on my FB timeline in response to someone else who conflates the two. Their reply was that they did not read it. This seems to be a common occurrence but for anyone who might be interested (and I don't include Yes voters in that) here it is yet again;

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

You are absolutely right, but is not the Yes campaign being driven by fervent Nationalists or have I got messrs Salmond, Sturgeon and Sillers wrong?

dunk67
16-09-2014, 01:32 PM
Hatred for the English over-rides all other consideration.

If that is a true reflection of how you see this, I fear you may have missed the point.

Chrisch
16-09-2014, 01:41 PM
....
Obama's presidency has been a failure. History will look back on him as one of the most useless and ineffectual presidents of modern times. ...

I think disappointment is a better description. He failed to do pretty much any of the things he promised and that people wanted and voted for. He has - as is required of the US president - kept the banks alive, increased the debt and kept the rich rich. So "failure" is subjective and depends upon where one is in the hierarchy.

Mikael
16-09-2014, 01:42 PM
You are absolutely right, but is not the Yes campaign being driven by fervent Nationalists or have I got messrs Salmond, Sturgeon and Sillers wrong?

Yes Scotland is an alliance of the SNP, Scottish Greens, Scottish Socialists as well as other organisations.
You might argue that the SNP run the show there but they don't run the wider grass roots movement that is for sure.

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 01:47 PM
Scottish socialists?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDzu9jbEkjI&feature=youtu.be

Mikael
16-09-2014, 01:52 PM
Scottish socialists?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDzu9jbEkjI&feature=youtu.be

No that's a labour politician, don't worry its a common mistake people make to think that Labour is still to the left of the political spectrum.

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 02:08 PM
One thing that has come out of this debate is that I've heard George Galloway and Gordon Brown talking good sense! I fear for the Scottish people because it is my opinion that many are being misled by the ambitions of a few.

If you have a yes/no vote, please read this. He says it better than I ever could. http://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/ewan-morrison-yes-why-i-joined-yes-and-why-i-changed-to-no/

Chrisch
16-09-2014, 03:38 PM
..., please read this. He says it better than I ever could. http://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/ewan-morrison-yes-why-i-joined-yes-and-why-i-changed-to-no/

I've read it - he says nothing. It is why he is disaffected by the campaigners. Fair enough. This is a vote about self-governance but everyone wants to reduce it to some pragmatic consideration that they know in advance they cannot get an answer to. What colour will the stamps be? You can't tell me! Oh balls to it then I'm voting no if you can't tell me what colour the stamps will be.

The no vote is driven by cowardice and anxiety, the yes vote by hubris and unrealistic aspirations. It is descending to the level of farce now.

gordyp
16-09-2014, 03:57 PM
I've read it - he says nothing. It is why he is disaffected by the campaigners. Fair enough. This is a vote about self-governance but everyone wants to reduce it to some pragmatic consideration that they know in advance they cannot get an answer to. What colour will the stamps be? You can't tell me! Oh balls to it then I'm voting no if you can't tell me what colour the stamps will be.

The no vote is driven by cowardice and anxiety, the yes vote by hubris and unrealistic aspirations. It is descending to the level of farce now.

It descended into farce ages ago in my opinion. I heard someone talking on the radio earlier about how its created such a 'great atmosphere'. I can only assume they haven't walked down Buchanan Street today where anyone not agreeing with the flocks of yes campaigners were subjected to shouting and jeers. It reminds me more and more of Rangers and Celtic supporters and all the bigotry that went along with it.

Friday can't come soon enough.

Chrisch
16-09-2014, 04:06 PM
.... It reminds me more and more of Rangers and Celtic supporters and all the bigotry that went along with it.

Yes, it is reminiscent of that I agree.


...Friday can't come soon enough.

I don't think the unpleasant aspects of the debate will end then unfortunately..

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 04:15 PM
It descended into farce ages ago in my opinion. I heard someone talking on the radio earlier about how its created such a 'great atmosphere'. I can only assume they haven't walked down Buchanan Street today where anyone not agreeing with the flocks of yes campaigners were subjected to shouting and jeers. It reminds me more and more of Rangers and Celtic supporters and all the bigotry that went along with it.

Friday can't come soon enough.

Sadly, Cameron and his cronies have conspired to wreck Scottish society. I witnessed two (former) friends almost come to blows today. I hope that if it is a YES vote it really will become the Utopia promised ...or there will be hell to pay. :(

By the way, another well-informed friend suggests that this might be the catalyst to encourage the Catalans, the Basques, the Bavarians and the Italian North etc to seek independence resulting in exactly what UKIP wanted - the break-up of the EU.

MikeF
16-09-2014, 04:16 PM
the girlfriend of one of my work colleagues was stopped by a yes campaigner it the street yesterday and asked to enter into a discussion on independance. when she politely tried to explain she didn't have time as she was on her way to a wedding he started screaming in her face 'what's wrong with you? are not proud to be scottish?'.

this is getting uglier and uglier. this campaign seems to have given some people the idea that it's somehow acceptable to be a bigot and intimidate anyone who doesn't want to listen to your world view and I wonder how long it will take to put the genie back in the bottle. If there's a No vote I can't help but think that some of the fanatical Yes supporters are going to cause mayhem.

Hickdive
16-09-2014, 04:22 PM
Sadly, Salmond and his cronies have conspired to wreck Scottish society. I witnessed two (former) friends almost come to blows today. I hope that if it is a YES vote it really will become the Utopia promised ...or there will be hell to pay. :(

By the way, another well-informed friend suggests that this might be the catalyst to encourage the Catalans, the Basques, the Bavarians and the Italian North etc to seek independence resulting in exactly what UKIP wanted - the break-up of the EU.

Fixed it for you.

Much as I might dislike Cameron he is not responsible for this debacle. The same would have happened regardless of who was in power at Westminster.

Nitnab Nhoj
16-09-2014, 04:27 PM
Fixed it for you.

Much as I might dislike Cameron he is not responsible for this debacle. The same would have happened regardless of who was in power at Westminster.

I was trying not to be divisive! http://www.aforceforgood.org.uk/positive/10reasons