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Spirit of Guernsey
05-01-2013, 11:14 PM
I have an OSTC as my main computer and a Suunto Vyper as backup. Mainly no stop diving on a single 12 with pony.

Occasionally I will rack up a few minutes of deco, and this morning was one of them. a 35m dive and left the bottom with 8 minutes TTS on both computers.

I settled at 3.5m to do my deco and the OSTC showed 4mins@3m, the Suunto 8mins. After 4 minutes the OSTC was clear, but the Suunto still showed 7 minutes. After about 5 minutes, the Suunto was showing 5 minutes, so I looked at the time on my OSTC and saw that it took another 12 minutes for the Suunto to clear. Luckily I was solo, but the skipper was getting a little impatient.

I know that I could have ignored the Suunto, but I had enough air and didn't want to bend it as I was planning a second dive.

Logun
05-01-2013, 11:24 PM
If its as a backup why dont you put it in gauge mode and use tables? then you dont encounter the same problem, but still have redundancy.

ebt
05-01-2013, 11:29 PM
Suuntos do this funky thing where if you're not pretty spot on with the stop depth they penalise you massively. Unless you're seeing the two arrows pointing at each other, you're in the penalty zone.

You can always vote with your wallet, I did about 15 years back.

Garf
05-01-2013, 11:36 PM
the other thing to remember is that dive computers are really just electronic tables. Based on your exposure, they just slot you into one of the boxes of the table. thats why you can look at your suunto and see 2 mins deco, then look at it 30 seconds later and see 8 minutes. It's just moved you from one box to another box. Similarly if you are not at precisely the right depth it will refuse to move you. so you can be at 6.1 metres and not actually decompressing according to some computers. That's their downside, IMO.

Scuttler
05-01-2013, 11:37 PM
They're Microsoft minutes? :angel:

String
05-01-2013, 11:51 PM
The Suunto model TTS is based on being at the ceiling for the required time. If you're deeper than that it assumes offgassing is slower so the time is longer. (very basically).

I'd have thought most/all computers that give a TTS would use similar methods.

Daniel Taylor
06-01-2013, 12:01 AM
I imagine the Suunto wanted you at 4-6m.
3.5m probably upset it

Dan

ebt
06-01-2013, 01:34 PM
The Suunto model TTS is based on being at the ceiling for the required time. If you're deeper than that it assumes offgassing is slower so the time is longer. (very basically).

I'd have thought most/all computers that give a TTS would use similar methods.

They do, but suuntos seem to overdo the penalty massively.

GLOC
06-01-2013, 01:37 PM
I haven't had a look through all of the papers, but I am sure you will find something useful in the links from Rubicon here covering the Dive Computer Validation Workshop in 2011.

Rubicon RSS Feed (http://www.thediveforum.com/rubicon-rss-feed/)

Regards

iamyourgasman
06-01-2013, 02:23 PM
We too have experienced the Suunto minutes big time. Paging Gloc to post the incident ;)

Mike Ward
08-01-2013, 05:27 PM
Once watched a trio of techies doing their stops on their VR3s. When they were all clear there were thumbs up from two, but the third produced his backup Suunto. As far as I know he could still be on the line.....

Rhys
08-01-2013, 08:49 PM
Ill always stick my suunto in gauge mode and dive tables if i plan on doing any deco. Got sick of suunto minutes a long time ago, wont be buying another one. Great no stop computers but useless for deco as far as im concerned

Paulo
08-01-2013, 08:52 PM
Ill always stick my suunto in gauge mode and dive tables if i plan on doing any deco. Got sick of suunto minutes a long time ago, wont be buying another one. Great no stop computers but useless for deco as far as im concerned

I have come around to this train of thought!

AndrewRawlingson
08-01-2013, 09:49 PM
Suuntos do this funky thing where if you're not pretty spot on with the stop depth they penalise you massively. Unless you're seeing the two arrows pointing at each other, you're in the penalty zone.

ebt is quite right. the helo2 computers give real minutes and don't penalise you in the same way, but that doesn't help you much.

TxNinja
09-01-2013, 01:20 PM
My Suunto D9 is now (cue comic book guy voice) most expensive depth gauge ever!

Offers taken!

dlk
29-01-2013, 12:33 PM
the other thing to remember is that dive computers are really just electronic tables. Based on your exposure, they just slot you into one of the boxes of the table. ...

Really?

DLK

Kermit
29-01-2013, 04:04 PM
Suunto advertise their basic models (up to Vytec, not sure about the D6 and D9) as "No stop" computers. "Do not use for deco". They WILL give you deco information but for many reasons (product liability?) they don't want you to use it.

Steve Clark
29-01-2013, 05:18 PM
The Vyper also has the nasty mandatory 3mins 'safety stop' built into it. This appears even in gauge mode, on any dive beyond 12/15m. In theory, you need to be in the 3-6m zone for the 3mins to make it go away. 6.1m is no good, so it comes and goes if you are hovering at 6m. I think this is why whenever you get the ASC (TTS) warning in AIR/NITROX mode, it starts at 4mins. I suppose this is actually just 1min of 'real' stops, or maybe not?

Don't discount a pressure sensor fault. I went on a dive to 123m in Capernwray and it went bananas, but still tried to give me deco info.

Steve

gobfish1
29-01-2013, 05:44 PM
i used to let my buddy dive using my 3 gas Vytec (pre deep stops) and id use my vr3 , on say a 60m dive, air and o2 deco . not much in the times spent in the water ,, as long as my buddy went and did what the suunto wanted ie move up as computer wants do your stop were it says ,

i tend to like this old chest nut whan it comes to matching up deco computers ,
A man with a watch knows what time it is, A man with two watches never is sure what feeking time it is ,,

Tunicates
29-01-2013, 06:01 PM
For anyone that's interested - the optimum stop depth for Suunto computers (upto and including Vytec) is 4.9m.
If you're bang on 4.9 then a minute is pretty much a minute as you and I know it.

String
29-01-2013, 08:59 PM
Any time the 2 arrows are pointing to each other a minute is a minute on the Suunto.

v
^

nickb
29-01-2013, 09:07 PM
The Vyper also has the nasty mandatory 3mins 'safety stop' built into it. This appears even in gauge mode, on any dive beyond 12/15mNot on mine it doesn't

Steve Clark
29-01-2013, 09:57 PM
Not on mine it doesn't

Is there a way to turn it off?

Tunicates
29-01-2013, 10:41 PM
Any time the 2 arrows are pointing to each other a minute is a minute on the Suunto.

v
^

Maybe - but I'm now getting long-sighted on top of my really quite severe short-sightedness so I find it's easier to read the depth markings rather than those pissy little arrows.

Like I say - 4.9m :)

Spirit of Guernsey
29-01-2013, 11:06 PM
Any time the 2 arrows are pointing to each other a minute is a minute on the Suunto.

v
^

Not on mine, as per 1st post.

String
29-01-2013, 11:27 PM
Maybe - but I'm now getting long-sighted on top of my really quite severe short-sightedness so I find it's easier to read the depth markings rather than those pissy little arrows.

Like I say - 4.9m :)

Not always. If you have deeper stops its not 4.9m.....

nickb
30-01-2013, 10:06 AM
Is there a way to turn it off?I have a Vyper. In gauge mode there is no safety stop information, it's a straight-up bottom timer.

edward
30-01-2013, 10:12 AM
Weird. I too have an old (2004 vintage) vyper that has been in gauge mode for the last 5 years. It still counts down a 3 min stop when I get to less than 6m, even in gauge. Not aware that I have ever set it to do this, it just did it. Perhaps it depends on the vintage/version of software on your vyper - the missus's one (bought at the same time as mine) also counts down in gauge mode. Not a great deal of use, I'll admit!

nickb
30-01-2013, 10:28 AM
Weird. I too have an old (2004 vintage) vyper that has been in gauge mode for the last 5 years. It still counts down a 3 min stop when I get to less than 6m, even in gauge.What happens if you don't do it? Steve's saying it's mandatory, suggesting it throws its toys out of the pram and goes into error mode or some such bullshit.

Maybe mine does have some countdown going on. TBH I can't say I've ever noticed it but couldn't swear it doesn't, but there's no bells and whistles on the surface after if I didn't do it.

I haven't used it for ages - anyone want to buy an old Suunto Vyper, with a Custom Ideas download cable? I've got a Uwatec 330 bottom timer I don't use either. Both in bungee mounts.

edward
30-01-2013, 10:37 AM
Ah, OK. I've never noticed it throwing its toys - to be honest I didn't realise it did it in gauge mode at all for about a year! If you ignore the 3 mins even in 'normal' mode all a Sunnto does is give you a little warning triangle so can't imagine gauge would be any worse. It does amuse me sometimes to see it count down 3 mins when the OSTC is showing 20mins of Oxygen stops at 6:)

String
30-01-2013, 10:29 PM
My Vyper Air doesnt do anything if you don't do its safety stop. No alarms, no penalising on next dive (despite the claims online). My old Vyper didn't either as far as i can remember.

One annoying thing the Vyper Air doesn't give in gauge mode is the ascent rate graph.

Steve Clark
30-01-2013, 10:36 PM
What happens if you don't do it? Steve's saying it's mandatory, suggesting it throws its toys out of the pram and goes into error mode or some such bullshit.

Maybe mine does have some countdown going on. TBH I can't say I've ever noticed it but couldn't swear it doesn't, but there's no bells and whistles on the surface after if I didn't do it.

I haven't used it for ages - anyone want to buy an old Suunto Vyper, with a Custom Ideas download cable? I've got a Uwatec 330 bottom timer I don't use either. Both in bungee mounts.

Bad wording on my part. It doesn't do anything if you don't bother with the stop in gauge mode. I just find it annoying when it flashes on and off when doing 6m stops. It has also confused a buddy who borrowed it once to use as a gauge. (3mins!, surely we need about 20!)

If you do bend it in AIR or NITROX mode, it goes into an SOS mode and makes a bit of noise but still works fine as a gauge.

Steve

The Duck
31-01-2013, 09:28 AM
Vytech does similar (I've not had mine in anything but guage mode for years) but every time I get to 6m it will want to stop for 3min no matter what kind of dive you have done. Having said that it would not do anything if you ignore it.

dlk
01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
Recreational Suuntos can show 4 types of stops. This applies to Mosquito, Stinger, Zoop, Vyper, Vytec, Cobra, D4, D6, D9, but not D9Tx, Helo2 or DX.
There may be some variations depending on the version of firmware used.

1. safety stops (3min@3m-4.2m, progressively longer between 4.2m-6m, not started / suspended > 6m). These are safety stops, and no penalty will result from skipping them.
2. mandatory safety stops (same depth/duration profile as safety stops). These are inserted after ascent rate violations, length depending on how violated it feels. Future dives in that series may be shortened if you skip these. Once any mandatory safety stop has finished, the regular safety stop will begin.
3. deep stops (1 or 2min @ about half-way to ceiling/surface, iteratively). If on, they're added in as an indicator and TTS modifier. No future dive penalty from violating them (they're like a deep safety stop).
4. deco stops (between ceiling and floor, fastest at ceiling & slowest at floor). Violate these for > 3 min, and you bend the computer. Depth & time will continue, but after surfacing it will lock out for 48 hours. The technical Suuntos are better tools for planned decompression dives, but the recreational ones will still try to get you home safely.

DLK